And just to make it interesting, you're all invited to make use of the Palin bingo card that Kathleen just forwarded to me.
If you get "Bingo" just shout out.
We go live at 8:59 PM.
8:58: Okay, I'm ready to go. Comments below the cut line.
PAD
8:59: Kath and Ariel each have two Palin Bingo cards. We are watching it, as before, on PBS.
9:01: Personally I can't wait for the SNL parody. I'd wager the entire writing staff of SNL is watching it in one room, getting ready to toss around jokes and comments.
9:02: can there be "toward" outbursts?
9:03: Biden brushes aside the question phrasing and goes straight for a canned answer. And he goes with the A plan: Push Obama. That's what he needs to do. Because ultimately Biden is selling Obama while Palin is selling herself, because there's a greater concern that she will wind up in the presidency than there is that Biden will.
9:05: Palin immediately goes to her strong suit: Go for the street-level concerns. Soccer moms.
9:07: Thank God she noticed neither of them answered the question. Palin is handling herself (of course) better than expected. How could she not?
9:10: She's been coached well. The "hecks" and "darn its" are starting to get to me.
9:11: So far it's playing out as expected: Palin uses the personable, down-home, "aw shucks" approach that makes it easy for her to connect to the rank and file. Biden comes across like the college professor that made you want to slit your wrists. This could wind up being painful for Obama's camp.
9:14: Biden's getting tougher on her now. He has to.
9:14: "I may not answer questions the way you and the moderator want to, but I'll be talking straight." Yeah, that was written for her by McCain's people; a nice all purpose dodge.
9:15: Biden's starting to find his stride. "Where I come from, we call it fairness." Good line.
9:17: She's going for the Biden taxes patriotic line. Let's see if he has a comeback for it.
9:18: Five grand doesn't buy health care. It just doesn't.
9:19: Biden's staying focused, which he doesn't always do. He's remaining concise. And he's doing a nice job of demolishing the McCain plan. "The Ultimate Bridge to Nowhere." Excellent.
9:21: Smart. What are we going to have to cut? Foreign aid. It's a substantive cut that no one in the US will give a damn about. Let's see if Palin has something substantive as well.
9:23: Boy, she's REALLY off topic. I mean, I know that they don't always answer the questions directly, but this is just so off the rails it's laughable.
9:24: No specifics. But hey, she's got an excuse: She's only been on this five weeks. How nice.
9:25: Ah! Biden co-opts her Alaska moves. Clever.
9:26: Some of the air seems to be seeping from Palin. Her posture is changing; her shoulders are a bit more slumped, her smile isn't quite as ready. And her voice is becoming a bit more brittle.
9:28: The thing is, it's easier to remain a policy wonk for ninety minutes than it is to be an aw shucks soccer mom outsider for ninety minutes.
9:29: Back to energy? WTF?
9:30: Well, she reversed the sentence structure. And you HAVE to study the causes! What the hell? Biden can shred her on this; she's starting to sound like Tina Fey.
9:32: Yes! Yes! Thank God Biden's going after it squarely. I just wish he'd looked at her and said, "Governor, with all respect, you were all over the place."
9:34: Ariel's closer with Bingo, but Kath has a lot of foreign policy stuff on her boards.
9:36: But they're stopping short of asking about same sex marriage.
9:37: Well, gee, I'm thrilled that she's tolerant, except she doesn't want gays to be able to be married.
9:38: Well, that's a damned shame that they don't support that. Makes him no better than Palin.
9:39: Ah! We have a plan! Let's hear it, Governor. Wow us.
9:40: Still waiting to hear the plan.
9:41: And the plan would be?
9:41: Thank God Biden pointed out that she never presented a plan. And Obama already addressed the voting question, which Biden is now reiterating. Didn't Palin see the previous debate.
9:42: Okay. Palin says Biden's plan is a white flag. AND HER PLAN WOULD BE?
9:43: WHAT'S HER DAMNED PLAN?
9:44: Ariel has the first Bingo. "Tax Relief," "Job Creation," "National Guard" and Drill" with the center space free.
9:45: Biden just seems to be getting stronger and stronger.
9:47: Crap. She can't say "nuclear." She can, however, say Akmijinidad (however you spell it)
9:50: He's making a valid point about the concept of speaking with people who we don't like.
9:51: As the Jewish vote perks up...
9:52: God, I wish he wouldn't refer to himself in the third person.
9:53: Biden is meticulously shredding the Bush Israel policy. Now he has to connect McCain to it.
9:54: Palin tries to short circuit criticism of the Bush administration, which she has to do if she hopes to salvage this.
9:55: And there's the connection. Now let's see if Palin can counter it.
9:58: Could we at least have a VP who knows the correct use of "Be all, end all?"
9:59: But we don't have troops available to put INTO Afghanistan. That's the problem.
9:59: I want him to say, "Joe Biden has to say this again."
10:00: Biden started to sigh in exasperation and then I think he caught himself doing so.
10:03: Biden now starts talking about where he's been, using the McCain tactic.
10:03: But he DID tell why he voted for it.
10:04; No one's said "respect" for a while. "Respect" was fast becoming the new "John is absolutely correct."
10:06: She's trying to bring it back to Biden and she's not doing a particularly good job.
10:07: John McCain knows how to win a war. Which war has he won, exactly?
10:08: This is a puffball question that allows them to hit all the major policy points of their respective platforms. Biden's doing great with it. Palin should be able to nail this too.
10:09: Except she's speaking in generalities.
10:10: GODDAMMIT, PALIN, SAY SOMETHING SPECIFIC!
10:11: An hour after my 9:11 observation and I couldn't have been more wrong.
10:12: Nice try with the aw-shucks routine, but she laid it on too thick. Reagan got away with "There you go again," but she piled on with gosh darn it and "say it ain't so, Joe." Too much. And now she's once again desperately off track.
10:13: Palin makes a nice connect trying to brush off the "what does a vice president even do?" comment from weeks ago.
10:14: Kath finally got a Palin bingo. "Alaska," "Special needs," "Hockey mom," "Terrorist" and the free square.
10:15: Thank God Biden seems to have mastered personal pronouns.
10:16: For God's sake, just say No, of course not, that the vice presidency is under the exec branch! Jeez!
10:17: Thank you, Senator.
10:18: Except the mod asked about weaknesses. Palin's answer isn't remotely on track. Or maybe that's displaying the weakness right there: She's a FREAKING MORON
10:19: Ariel has another Bingo. "Maverick," "Obama," "National Guard," "Bailout," "heartland"
10:21: I know he didn't do it manipulatively, but his choking up just now is going to floor people. That was perfect. Very emotional and he managed to rein himself in just in time so that he will come across as strong.
10:22: Did I hear that right? "He's the man we need to leave, I mean lead."
10:23: Biden's pounding McCain into the ground with his own maverick label. Outstanding.
10:24: He's killing her. Biden's freaking killing her.
10:25: Oooo. He started a little dull with this answer, but he's laid a trap for Palin with roe v. Wade. Let's see if she steps in.
10:26: Nope. She didn't.
10:27: Could we put a moratorium on "walk the walk" and "talk the talk" for the rest of the debates? Please?
10:28: Holy crap. We have 204 comments on this thread. That's more than twice as much on the presidential debate.
10:30: sarah Palin wants to be able to speak without the filter of the media. Or the filter of intelligence.
10:31: Interesting. Now Biden is swinging back to that semi-somnabulant tone from the beginning of the debate.
10:32: But he perked up at the end.
Absolutely no question: Biden. He started off slow, she started off fast, but she couldn't sustain it and he just kept pounding away.
Biden made all sorts of valid policy points, but I bet the big talking point becomes how Biden got choked up.
Posted by Peter David at October 2, 2008 01:30 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingNow, now... Let's not be so obviously partisan. Here's a page which claims (I didn't actually check) to have Bingo cards for both candidates' talking points. After all, it's not as if only Palin and the Republicans have scripted points to segue into and highlight frequently.
Daddy G, did you really say "let's not be so obviously partisan?"
Boy are you barking up the wrong tree coming here! hehe.
In all seriousness though, you generally do get some well-thought out discussion on the left side of the political spectrum here--more so than DailyKos or HuffingtonPost; That's why I come here after reading my daily dose of National Review: to get some sensible arguments from both sides.
(Sorry, Peter. This was probably not the place to discuss this, but I got on a roll..)
How could they do these cards and leave off "Joe Six-Pack"?
--Ed
Palin: Can I call you Joe?
Interesting start. Does he call her Sarah? How does any of that play?
Biden seems a little sedate. I think he could use some more energy.
9:04 "Is this the best of Washington or the worst?" What kind of question is that? The last thing a moderator should do is ask a question that gives so much room for the candidate to give a vague, generalized, rhetorical, self-serving response. I would've hoped for a more substantive question that would allow the public to pin down the candidates' positions more easily.
McCain suspended his campaign, what a crock, she's out of the gate with the first lie.
Scratch that. Not just sedate. Sleepy. His words even seem a little slurred.
She's speeding through her lines, hardy pausing for a breath. Overly rehearsed.
Wow, she *actually* winked at the camera when saying that McCain meant American workers when he said "fundamentals." She knows how to work the camera when she lies.
9:09 As scripted speeches-as-answers-to-questions go, that one that Palin just gave sounded pretty good.
Wait America is tired of the same old boys and hungry for something new so let's put McCain in?
She actually said Joe Six-Pack. Holy crud. Toss out the bingo cards, we're into the drinking game.
PAD, they actually had a right not to answer the second question. The format was supposed to include time to respond to each others' answers, which Gwen did not give them for the first question.
Nice work by Biden trying to connect McCain (properly) to the deregulation obsession. This is typical running-mate stuff, but he's doing it well.
The "darn its" are driving me nuts, too. I'm interested in Biden's facial expressions during Palin's answers. It seems to be of a good-natured "you must be kidding" variety.
And now he rebuts. Nice.
Biden comes across like the college professor that made you want to slit your wrists.
Doesn't seem that way to me, but maybe we knew different professors in college. :-)
SHe keeps avoiding the questions! She saddled 5000+ people with 21 million in debt, but didn't raise taxes.
"I may not answer the questions the moderator asks" had me laughing so hard.
"To heck with what the question is! To heck with the debate! I'll talk about whatever I like. Hey, didja catch my kid's soccer game last night?"
She's not going to really answer the questions? The only true thing Palin will say all night.
Oooh nice work by Biden there pointing out that McCain voted the same way.
As for the whole I'm not going to answer the way you like or the way the moderator likes? A smart play but i8t irritates the hell out of me.
Okay, so far I have Tax Relief, Obama, and Maverick. What do you have?
9:17 She pushes the "I'm from a small-town" bullshit, as if that means anything.
Meanwhile, here are 11 myths about Palin: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/23140513/the_truth_about_sarah_pa
Why is it that whenever Palin looks at the camera, it seems like she's reading off of a teleprompter? Or at the very least, reciting memorized lines....
I just realized something... I really don't want Joe Six-pack or hockey mom in the White House. They are concepts in name and unqualified in reality. I'd also love for either candidate to point out that the American people need to be honest in looking at tightening up their own belts and being willing to lower their standard of living. That is what needs to happen when you don't have the $$$ to buy a flat screen television, buy a large house, etc..
I think Biden is doing well. Even when he talks about Palin not answering a question, he brings it back around to talking about McCain.
It's okay if she looks better than him. That will fade in a couple of days as long as that's all the headline they have. If the entire debate is about the differences between McCain and Obama, then this debate won't have any affect on the race. With Obama in the lead, they'll be very happy with that result.
I have maverick,reformer, job creation, tax relief, family, Hockey mom,and track. 2 away from bingo!!
First, Obama's health-care proposal ain't government=run. Second, saying "if you like the idea of government-run health care" avoids the fact that most people on Medicare DO like it well enough, and I certainly don't hear Congresscritters complaining about their health care.
Obama-Biden like the "95%" line. Too bad that they keep using it about subjects where it's not the right %.
She using so many keywords, kids are gonna die from alcohol poisoning.
Is it that bad? She didn't just say she was going to answer the questions with whatever she wants? My god, is it just me?
Real Bridge to Nowhere. Yo Joe.
Biden gets a laugh on the "Ultimate Bridge to nowhere" comment. Ouch, she doesn't even get to reply to it. Point to Biden.
Is the sound going in and out for anyone else? I'm watching on PBS.
Ok. She's talking directly to him. He has to go right at her now. This could be tricky.
Peter David: 9:14: "I may not answer questions the way you and the moderator want to, but I'll be talking straight." Yeah, that was written for her by McCain's people; a nice all purpose dodge.
Luigi Novi: Reminds me of how so-called psychics use preemptive dodges to explain why they might end up being wrong with their predictions. "I'm not always right.....this is just a feeling I'm getting.....maybe it applies to someone you know and not you....." It's a way to rationalize your future screw-ups in order to keep them from being criticized.
Peter David: 9:14: "I may not answer questions the way you and the moderator want to, but I'll be talking straight." Yeah, that was written for her by McCain's people; a nice all purpose dodge.
Luigi Novi: Reminds me of how so-called psychics use preemptive dodges to explain why they might end up being wrong with their predictions. "I'm not always right.....this is just a feeling I'm getting.....maybe it applies to someone you know and not you....." It's a way to rationalize your future screw-ups in order to keep them from being criticized.
She's back to clicking her tongue! What did they shoot her up with? She sounds like a child on a sugar high.
"There isn't much that I've promised, except to do what is right."
Oh. Come. ON.
Five grand doesn't buy health care. It just doesn't.
That's not true, Peter, it just won't buy it for more than a couple of months. Hey, if all the poor and middle class people out there (like me) just don't get sick or hurt all that often then that should be more than enough.
{Sarcasm Off}
Oh come on! "I've only been here 5 weeks"! Unbelievable!
Palin's making it look like Obama gave money to oil companies and she took it away. Insteresting, I think they may stick with people. The facts are fuzzier, of course, but that's a subtle thing to get across.
His response was WAY too technical. It should have been more focused on hitting back at McCain in a concise, easy to understand way.
Ah, nice. I'm glad Biden is pointing out that the tax on Oil Companies she's so proud of is actually something McCain has fought on the national level. I was wondering when someone would point that out.
"Joe Six Pack" and "Wall Street" should've been squares on the bingo board.
Biden did a decent job in redirecting that.
She's coming out okay as long as you ignore the fact that she can't answer the questions as asked
Ok, again I'm stuck with XM rather than TV. So my question to you all is...
Does she look as lost and clueless as she sounds?
Jeez... McCain brought people in/together on this bill? Did she say that with a straight face?
THis isn't a debate, it's fracking Palin off the fracking rails. I WANT ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS!
It's amazing how often she wants to go back to an earlier subject. I hate this format, it gives her an excuse to say that she didn't have enough time on the subjects she likes and use that as a time to eat up time on the subjects she doesn't like.
Palin isn't nearly as good at pivoting. Her responses are rambling more, too. It's only 1/3 of the way through the debate. Is she going to hold up?
$700 Billion is a flat out lie again. They've been corrected. Still, at least, unlike McCain this morning, she didn't say that we're sending it all to countries that hate us.
But Governor, if you insist that you don't want to know why climate change is occurring, you cannot properly address what you're going to do about it. That's basic.
Is it just me, or did she just turn to Biden with an uncertain look during her overly rehearsed breathless speech, and he gave her a reassuring nod? This is sad.
So you don't want to talk about the causes but you want to fix the problem of climate changes. Nice
R-
I don't want to argue about the causes climate change. of course not because it might affect the people you need for support
Not only is she becoming more and more seemingly unsure of what she is saying with the stutters and pauses, but she is becoming more and more disjointed and tossing out unarguable generalizations that don't actually say anything. substantial.
Not only is she becoming more and more seemingly unsure of what she is saying with the stutters and pauses, but she is becoming more and more disjointed and tossing out unarguable generalizations that don't actually say anything. substantial.
Not only is she becoming more and more seemingly unsure of what she is saying with the stutters and pauses, but she is becoming more and more disjointed and tossing out unarguable generalizations that don't actually say anything. substantial.
I think all of this is very sad. Palin was probably the perfect choice for Governor of Alaska -- but she's in no way prepared for this -- she's memorized a whole bunch of factoids, but she doesn't believe in it. It's just words for her.
She looks like a child trying to win a spelling bee and she's struggling to remember her name.
Wait -- she's BOASTING about the "drill baby drill" chant? Something that's uncomfortably close to cheering piracy? Yeesh.
No, Governor, you aren't building a pipeline. You paid someone $500,000 to *consider* building a pipeline, which they don't have to give back if they don't build it.
9:24: No specifics. But hey, she's got an excuse: She's only been on this five weeks. How nice.
Luigi Novi: Not good. She shouldn't be emphasizing or calling attention to something which her critics criticize her for.
"Drill baby, drill"?! People cry that out at rallies?
Yep. Been there and seen it.
Biden's arguing a very strong civil unions policy now. That's actually kinda ballsy to argue that so strongly in the height of the campaign.
Meanwhile, Palin --
"I am tolerant, and I'll kill and field-dress anyone who says I'm not."
Oh God. Oh no. Please don't talk about gay issues right now. This is a losing battle in a presidential campaign. Oh man, Biden really stepped in it.
On the other hand, she is actually striking a relatively tolerant tone for a Republican. But still, this is a no-win for Democrats. Geez.
A half hour in and Biden hasn't tripped up yet. He's still calling her 'Governor' and being very respectful.
A straight answer about same sex marriage by Joe. It may just shoot down some of the weaker support they had.
Too bad really.
What the hell did she just say about gay marriage in response to Biden?
I wish someone would actually emerge in favor of same-sex marriage, but Biden made as good a statement as we're likely to get any time soon.
9:37: Well, gee, I'm thrilled that she's tolerant, except she doesn't want gays to be able to be married.
And neither does Obama/Biden.
"We don't need early withdrawal!"
Perhaps this explains Bristol. (I know, cheap shot...)
Wow, Gwen is asking Palin for an Iraq exit strategy. That's asking a lot.
Of course, Palin is completely avoiding the actual question. She did it subtlety enough that a lot of people might miss it, though.
9:36: But they're stopping short of asking about same sex marriage.
Spoke too soon PAD
Sadly both said no to it, but frankly I don't think you can say yes in the US right now and have a hope of winning.
Ahhh, the surge is part of our exit strategy. It's all so clear to me now.
Okay, I missed the entire question: Did the moderator ask Palin what their plan for Iraq IS? Because Palin is now talking about the surge, which was Bush's plan, has nothing to do with her or McCain, and is using that to attack Obama and Biden.
Oh, okay, so she WAS asked her plan. And she's not giving an answer beyond the vague "we must not give up" pep rally crap.
Don't tell us what you don't need to do in Iraq you nitwit.
Ah, the hallow "win" comment.
Joe shoots and scores in his response!!!
"With all due respect, I didn't hear a plan." Good for you Joe.
Posted by: jason
I think all of this is very sad. Palin was probably the perfect choice for Governor of Alaska -- but she's in no way prepared for this -- she's memorized a whole bunch of factoids, but she doesn't believe in it. It's just words for her.
I'mnot sure she was the best choice for Governor of Alsak.
If she pronounces it "Eye-rack" one more time I swear I'm going to reach through the screen and bep her nose or something. Ggggggah.
The surge works, victory is in sight and General Patrais is an American hero?
Bizarro much?
Wow... she just had her deer in the headlights moment.
"Um....."
On gay marriage, I wish Biden had mentioned that Obama wants to leave it up to states. It's not a great answer, but it's better than nothing.
Hmm, Palin is going a little off script on the exit from Iraq. Still mostly slogans that we've heard before, but she had more ums, less smiles, and less interesting stuff to say. I think she's off her footing a little.
Although Biden's answering it well, I (unfortunately) think Palin's coming off well at the moment mentioning Biden's criticism of Obama. It's somewhat misleading, but that's par for the course.
No Joe, it's only $60 billion. You and Obama have had that pointed out to you several times now. You have a point on Iraq, a strong point, so please stop making up the math to make it seem like a stronger point.
Matt Adler: Oh God. Oh no. Please don't talk about gay issues right now. This is a losing battle in a presidential campaign. Oh man, Biden really stepped in it.
Luigi Novi: Well, the moderator asked that question. What's he supposed to do? Lie? Give a bullshit non-answer like the kind Palin gave Katie Couric?
David: "Drill baby, drill"?! People cry that out at rallies?
Luigi Novi: Yeah. Her daughter and her boyfriend when they're behind the bleachers.
"I wish Biden had mentioned that Obama wants to leave it up to states"
Yes. That is the "correct" answer in this situation.
9:45: Biden just seems to be getting stronger and stronger.
But not who you want to have a beer with. That factor will play big later on in the spin.
NUCULAR?
Ptui. Ptui. Ptui.
I will not stand another person in the executive branch who Cannot Fucking Talk.
"What's he supposed to do? Lie? Give a bullshit non-answer like the kind Palin gave Katie Couric?"
See above.
I don't know if bringing up the Spain gaffe is necessarily a good idea. It's certainly valid, but it could be spun as mean-spirited.
"She can, however, say Akmijinidad (however you spell it)"
Well, it really shouldn't matter since they use a completely different alphabet, but... Ahmedinejad is the most common English spelling (Achmedinejad would be more accurate, but the Semitic "ch" sound scares English-speakers).
I hate the stupid preconditions argument.
Preconditions is demanding that the other side give you something you want before you even start negotiating. If you go to a car dealership and he salesman says, "You have to give me $1000 before I'll let you look at the cars," you'd walk away from that lot. Everyone would. Nobody is stupid enough to do that, and our enemies aren't either. Demanding preconditions is demanding that negotiations never actually happen.
Note: Biden shouldn't have hit the "Spain" comment again. Everyone heard that at the last debate, all the impact is gone. Come one, new material, man!
Does she have a clue about the Middle East beyond the fact that there's a lot of sand over there?
Biden is sounding REALLY good, I think. Agree or disagree with him, he clearly is talking from a lot of experience and a lot of thought.
Wow, now she's bringing up the "blame game" and saying that Obama-Biden are spending too much time looking backwards.
Yes, Governor. It's called learning from history.
Palin just mentioned a little history about peace making in Israel. That might make the audiences at home feel like she actually knows something about the rest of the world.
I think Biden is hitting back hard, though. He's saying that the Bush administration is a failure and she's not going to get far by saying that it isn't.
9:47: Crap. She can't say "nuclear."
Jiminy Christmas - would people just lay the eff off of this? Of all the things out of the last 8 years, everyone harping on this has been the thing that annoys the piss out of me most. I mean really, there's literally thousands of things more important out there than someone's personal dialect.
Let me lay my cards on the table. I am *more* than well aware of the "correct" pronunciation of the word. I was in the Nuclear Navy. I went to Naval Nuclear Power School. I was a Nuclear-qualified Electrician's Mate. My best friend from the Navy still works at a nuclear power plant. We both still (and many of the people we went to power school with, especially from the south and west) pronounce it "nucular" - it is part of our dialect. If you think it makes me sound stupid, eff you.
::groans:: You know, after waiting so long to have a real chance at having a woman in the Pres or VP position... What a disappointment she is.
BTW anyone hear her mention Karzai? I need that for bingo...
I haven't heard the differences Nicely done Biden. Shame the moderator changed the subject.
"Can we talk about Afganistan now for a little bit"
Um, no. You're supposed to stick with the question.
Nice, now Biden is connecting Bush to McCain on foreign policy. Meanwhile, Palin is spouting catch-phrases as fast as she can talk. I feel like the word "maverick is actually attacking me at this point."
However, she's doing well as far as audiences at home are going to be able to tell. She's not saying the smartest stuff, but she's looking much, much better than she did in the Couric interview. That's going to reassure some people.
Jiminy Christmas - would people just lay the eff off of this?
No.
I'm not saying it's the most important thing in the world, but willful ignorance of the English language is something that I really cannot abide.
If that's what annoys you the most in the last eight years, then I respectfully submit that you haven't been paying much attention.
Oh god, she is trying to kill us with the word Nucular.
Bosniacs???????
Didn't they kick Superman's butt once?
Hey! She smirked when he said "Dick Luger". Granted, I did too, but still....
Bosniacs? I thought it was Bosnians. Bosniacs sounds a lot cooler.
Palin, enough's enough. Stop with the cute "y'knows" and ADDRESS THE DAMN TOPIC.
Maybe he opposes the war now because the strategy, goals and intelligence are different than when he voted for it? Just an idea.
10:03 Oh God, her she's goes again, trying to answer Biden's huge experience with her "It's obvious that I'm a Washington outsider" shit. Gimme a break, governor. If you're going to whine that you can't equal Biden's experience by regurgitating that excuse all night, then maybe you could've thought twice about accepting a position on this ticket.
"Man, I'm such a Washington outsider."
I'm not objective. I just don't like her on a personal level.
I think Biden is doing a good job presenting his point without hammering the obvious, like when he went to Sudan, he didn't go "and when have you been to Sudan?" to Palin.
"Nucular" is no more part of a dialect than "axing" someone a question. If you know the correct pronunciation and still can't be bothered to say it correctly, you're showing both laziness and contempt for the importance of communication, an attitude which usually passes on to the next generation in more prominent ways.
Is it just me or does she still sound like she's giving answers in the Miss Alaska contest?
Bosnians? You mean James Bond? What does he have to do with our foreign policy?
"lock step" nice word choice...
Heh, she is depending on the pundits for the truth?
"John McCain knows how to win a war."
Talk about the Straight Line Express.
The Obama camp needs to get James Garner's endorsement. "Mccain is no Maverick"
"Jon McCain knows how to win a war."
Really? Which one has he won?
(and watching Return of the Jedi doesn't count)
Palin says she watched Biden's previous debates.
What she doesn't say is that she watched them yesterday... :-)
Biden explained that he was against the war. Palin's response? Filibuster. Talk about all the politics stuff that's going to happen in the next few days but don't actually say anything to prove that he was for the war, just imply it.
You cannot call yourself a maverick if you are the maverick!
R-
"John McCain knows how to win a war."
Bullshit. He was in a war. That means nothing really. I'm a cop, that doesn't mean I know how to stop or end all crime. Tell us a solid F'N plan you dizzy &*%&#&* or go back to F'N Alaska already.
Is there anyone left in the US who doesn't know there's a town in Alaska called Wasilla?
Why does Biden seem to be talking like he's part of a team and Palin seem to be talking like she's campaigning for John McCain?
10:09 "What do you expect, [we're] a team of mavericks". Wrong, governor. McCain was a maverick. He's not anymore. He's part of the system, and you're incompetent.
10:10 Wasilia Main Street. My God, does she have no concept that people are going to be watching for canned soundbites.
And now "working-class Americans". Hmph. Guess not.
10:11 And now Biden is countering by repeating it or using similar phrases. Well, at least he's just trying to turn the left hook of her use of it into a left jab by co-opting it.
Y'know... enough with the fracking "greed on Wall Street"
You know. I've always thought that the choice of VP would swing my vote. Now it has... I cannot bear the thought of her being so close to that much power.
Dagnabit...
I think it's possible that she could be so annoying that the general public might start to hate her.
"Say it isn't so, Joe, doggone it..."
THE BRAIN, IT HURTS.
Say it ain't so? There you go again? Does she think she's Reagan?
Palin: DC needs a bit of Wasilla.
Does that mean you would massively increase the debt while spending tons of money on things we don't need?
Oh, and Biden spends a lot of time in Home Depot? Weird name drop. Might be true, but that feels a little forced.
10:11 Another "There you go again" (Who is she, Reagan?), "doggonnit", and "God bless her". I hadn't noticed what Tim and others were talking about before, but now I am, and I swear, I wanna kill her if she doesn't stop it with the homeyisms.
Oh. My. God.
I think she might actually get a lot of teacher's votes. She admits that No Child Left Behind is crap.
Did Palin really just make a reference to Biden's dead wife? Isn't that kind of ... um ... tacky?
Okay, and the shout-out to third-grades is just goofy. I'd give a shout-out to my students if I were on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, but not in a debate.
How the hell did things steer to education anyway?
Oh my god she just brought up his dead wife.
That's hard.
and she's gone so folksy I can hear the banjoes
Oh. My. God.
I think she might actually get a lot of teacher's votes. She admits that No Child Left Behind is crap.
"but willful ignorance of the English language is something that I really cannot abide"
So you just refuse to accept that there can be localized development of alternate pronunciations in an active, evolving language (ie a *dialect*) that has absolutely nothing to do with willful ignorance or stupidity, is that it? Talk about your close-mindedness.
"If that's what annoys you the most in the last eight years, then I respectfully submit that you haven't been paying much attention."
And I respectfully submit that statement's full of crap. I said "Annoyed". "Annoyed" is not the same as "Disturbed", "Scared", "Angered", or any of a thousand other emotions this administration has engendered.
10:13 Public school is "near and dear to my heart". Sure, governor. But not all subjects, right? There are certain ones that you'd rather kids not learn, right?
Peter David: 10:07: John McCain knows how to win a war. Which war has he won, exactly?
Luigi Novi: Vietnam, Peter. Don't you know that getting your plane shot down, being captured and tortured is how wars are won?
(In the George Patton bizarro world, that is.)
There it is!
She just wrote the SNL sketch for this debate.
"Say it ain't so, there you go again Joe, doggone it, [fast, endless rambling]."
Too bad the people at home have probably tuned out by now.
Washington Post Fact-Checker blog is covering the debate live as well, just as they did the prior Presidential debate.
Did she say hockey mom ever? or just soccer mom?
so close to a bingo
Great question from Ifill.
"Flexibility"!!! Get 'er Joe.
Got Executive now. She's starting to hit a lot more of these now.
Got Executive now. She's starting to hit a lot more of these now.
Got Executive now. She's starting to hit a lot more of these now.
Got Executive now. She's starting to hit a lot more of these now.
Critter, this is a stupid argument. I dislike the term "nucular" intensely, and I have explained why. Matt Adler did it even better.
You want to disagree, that's your business -- but frankly, you're being both a bore and a boor, so I'm withdrawing from this particular non-debate. Feel free to take that personally as well if you like.
Biden shoots and scores on the VP office! To bad that it will be one of those issues that fall flat with most people.
Palin doesn't even know the basic structure of government. Jeez...
YOOOOOO JOE!
*cheering*
I wish he had addressed her flexibility comment directly and chided her on it. It's risky, but this the prospect of another administration shredding the Consitution has to be addressed.
Biden Just Nailed her on the VP question.
A huge state with a population lower than many major cities.
Does anybody else hear dueling banjoes in the background?!?
R-
Got executive and heartland. She's starting to hit more of these.
Has she said "job creation" or "reformer" yet?
I think her weak point was just proven. She can't answer a question as it was asked.
10:19 Okay now she sounds like a preacher trying to make you swallow something really stupid, like witchcraft exists. Gag me! I loathe this woman.
The only solid concept she's put forward is the notion that she's just like the common folk out there. Too bad for her that most the common folk out there have more brains than she does.
"For God's sake, just say No, of course not, that the vice presidency is under the exec branch! Jeez!"
No, he had to make a direct reference to the Constituion. We need to hear this now more than ever.
10:21 More "maverick" and "not more of the same" from Palin.
She said Giuliani. I think that counts for 9/11, bingo crowd.
"stupid, like witchcraft exists. "
It does. Just ask her preacher.
Can we get a bingo if she says Maverick 5 times in the same sentence?
And now Biden's taking on the "maverick" cliche directly.
Go for it, Joe!
Gwen asked them what their Achilles heals are. That seems like a bad question to me. Who's going to give a real answer to that when running for such an important office?
At this point, they're going to tell you that they can balance the budget, make peace with any world leader, and protect Metropolis from giant crystal robots.
"He's been no maverick in the things that matter in people's lives." Excellent line. Taking down her central talking point.
Oooooh... Look at him go on the "Maverick" ... Nice.
10:22: Did I hear that right? "He's the man we need to leave, I mean lead."
Yes, you did.
10:23 Good! Biden debunked her "maverick" soundbite.
10:22: Did I hear that right? "He's the man we need to leave, I mean lead."
Yes she said that.
This debate far exceeded my expectations of Biden. He did a great job tonight connecting McCain to Bush and questioning his "Maverick" label.
R-
10:24: He's killing her. Biden's freaking killing her.
Which will be played up as his being a bully in Friday's talking points.
Gwen asked them what their Achilles heals are. That seems like a bad question to me. Who's going to give a real answer to that when running for such an important office?
A lot of job-interview-like questions are bad debate questions, but I think the public is entitled to hear the candidates respond to those kinds of questions.
The "motive" bit by Joe was weak as hell. That's going to be used to smack the hell out of him this weekend.
Which will be played up as his being a bully in Friday's talking points.
I don't think so -- not successfully, anyway. He's been very careful to stay on the right side of that emotional line.
I would love to know how many democrats and independents she's posted to positions
She has a diverse family, and some of her best friends are gay.
"I like to answer the tough questions."
Okay, so why didn't you?
How was that weak, Jerry? I actually thought it was one of the most insightful things either of them had said all evening.
""Nucular" is no more part of a dialect than "axing" someone a question. If you know the correct pronunciation and still can't be bothered to say it correctly, you're showing both laziness and contempt for the importance of communication, an attitude which usually passes on to the next generation in more prominent ways."
mmm...that would be such a lovely statement if it were true. However, you are completely wrong. If that were true then I guess I should be a drooling, ignorant stooge who spends 90% of his life glued to the idiot tube. That is most decidedly not the case. My grandmother and grandfather and my mother pronounced it that way while I was growing up and they were NOT lazy, ignorant or contemptuous - and neither am I thanks to them. So, I must ask you for an apology on their behalf.
""I like to answer these tough questions."
Really? When did you do that, Sarah?
10:28: Holy crap. We have 204 comments on this thread. That's more than twice as much on the presidential debate.
Because comedy always plays better.
Ha! Palin didn't appoint people on a non-partisan basis, she appointed them based on whether or not they were her friends!
Oh, great. Media bashing. Never mind the fact that the American People wouldn't be able to hear a word she's saying without the media.
I say we got 204 because of the bingo. I've probably made 15-20 posts, and I think the bingo helped. I got depressed part way through the first one, but the card kept me going.
She took five week to come up with that closing for her debate?
The folks at the FactCheck.org Wire appear to have gotten their live coverage up and running for this debate (they had technical diffculties for the first Presidential debate which aborted their plan to do so then).
What questions did she actually answer? I forget... Let alone tough!
Peter David: 10:21: I know he didn't do it manipulatively, but his choking up just now is going to floor people. That was perfect. Very emotional and he managed to rein himself in just in time so that he will come across as strong.
Luigi Novi: He also coughed or cleared his throat in a wide shot about an hour ago, when Palin was speaking, so unless he deliberately did that as a plant, yeah, it was not deliberate.
"How was that weak, Jerry? I actually thought it was one of the most insightful things either of them had said all evening."
It could have been, Tim, but the way it was delivered came off flat to me. It seemed weak and hollow. It may be because I'm hearing the debate and not watching it and I'm not getting the added effects of the visual.
Maybe; I've certainly noticed a "listened vs. watched" difference in past years.
In any case, now back to the Grading Monster. 'Night, all.
Also, I say we got to 204 because I wanted to see Palin speak. I've seen Obama, McCain and Biden before, but I haven't seen Palin attempt anything close to a debate.
I think Palin lost 15 electoral points just from letting people forget McCain was a prisoner of war.
Also, I say we got to 204 because more people wanted to see Palin speak. I've seen Obama, McCain and Biden before, but I (and probably other viewers who tuned in for this debate) haven't seen Palin attempt anything close to a debate.
Biden did pulloff the better closing argument. I'm tuning into Fox News now on the XM. I gotta hear how they spin this as a win for Palin.
Heh, they just said that Palin didn't make a single mistake.
"so I'm withdrawing from this particular non-debate"
See, this is what I don't get. Something is harped on continuously for eight years, is mentioned specifically in the live blogging - I mention my annoyance with that statement, then refute your argument, so now I'm a bore and boor and you withdraw from the 'non-debate'. Just sayin'
10:38 PM - Fox News:
Palin held her own and maybe even won. She didn't make any mistakes. She was perfect. She was great. She's going to fire up the base all over again based on this debate. At 9:55 PM she "won" the debate.
I wish I could see their faces while they're saying that.
From MSNBC:
"Palin pushes wedge between Biden and Obama"
ARRRRGGGHHHHH
And whoever wrote the article is either a) a Palin supporter or b) watched some other debate
The PBS commentary continues to be genuinely fair and balanced, including making a lot of the same comments that I and others have been making.
PAD
Right now on CNN, Soyedad O'Brien is interviewing a group of (IIUC) registered independents, Republicans and Democrats Ohio. There's about twenty to thirty of them in total, and she started off with a show of hands, and most of them said Biden won. About three or four raised their hands in support of Palin.
Pat Buchanan on MSNBC just said she won the Debate. WTF kind of junk did he get off Rush to make him Hallucinate that hard? She just said she wanted to continue to expand her power as Vice President! NO ONE BETTER LET WILMA FLINTSTONE NEAR THOSE NUKES!
This is starting to remind me of Quayle in 1988. As long as Palin didn't swallow her own tongue, she has exceeded expectations.
One of the panelists who says she'll vote for Palin describes her rationale by saying that Palin is a "real person", and so forth. Sure. And Obama and Biden are made of paper mache.
The only thing Biden could have done better is shown more energy throughout the debate. On substance, there was no comparison. Anyone who think this woman belongs in the White House is a fool.
On PBS they just said, "It will be some time before we know if she was likeably Reaganesque or just 'Gidget Goes to Washington.'" That's priceless.
PAD
A note to Sarah Palin: It's Gen. David McKiernan in Afghanistan, not Gen. George McClellan.... You're a few years off there.
I hope no one lets that comment about expanding Vice-Presidential powers drop. That definatly sent a cold chill down my spine!
Right now on CNN, Soyedad O'Brien is interviewing a group of (IIUC) registered independents, Republicans and Democrats Ohio. There's about twenty to thirty of them in total, and she started off with a show of hands, and most of them said Biden won. About three or four raised their hands in support of Palin.
Fox did the same thing and got a huge show of hands for Palin. However, based on the footage of the diner spot that Fox News did; I'm not sure I can trust what they say about a show of hands without actually being able to see it.
I noticed that too, but didn't think much of it. She mentioned "McClellan", and I thought, Wait, that's the former WH press secretary. They're supposed to be talking about Iraq commanders. Is there a commander in Iraq that also has that name?
I love how he got her to agree with Cheney. How do you agree Cheney?!?!
Hmmm. She may have won the debate for just not collapsing on stage, but did she do anything to convince voters who were undecided. I doubt it.
One of the panelists who says she'll vote for Palin describes her rationale by saying that Palin is a "real person", and so forth.
I just had that talk with a co-worker. He heard the debate and said that Palin won it because she's more real tham Biden or Obama. I asked him what he meant and he said that she just comes off as more of a regular person.
Of course, he and others said the same thing eight years ago about Bush and we all know how well that turned out...
NBC was also saying that Palin did well and both of them won. I was leaning McCain-Palin but I don't think there's any way anyone can say that Biden didn't win and handily.
I got annoyed with the back and forth over who did or didn't want to withhold funding for the troops. As I understand it, Obama voted against it because he disagreed with the way the administration was handling the war and McCain voted against it because there was a timetable in it. If either had voted for it, they would have been nailed for voting for something that went against their previous positions. So it's a non-issue to me.
There's a guy who legally changed his name to Santa Claus and is running as an official write-in in 15 states to raise awareness for rpoblems affecting children. I hope he's official in Ohio so maybe I can vote for him. There's aspects of both sides I like and dislike and it's hard to sort the sound bites and posturing from reality. And probably some of the biggest issues of the presidency in the next four years wil bethings no one's arguing about now anyway. Oh well, a couple more weeks to decide I guess...
I, too, had a moment of internal laughter when Gov. Palin gave us that, "I'm not going to answer the questions the way you want me to" line, oh that sneaky wench.
Answer the questions, Governor!
*ahem* Sorry. Neither of them gave a particularly gutsy answer about gay marriage, but Sen. Biden's was by far the stronger of two spineless. Sorry, Governor, but "tolerance" just doesn't cut it.
Pointing backward to the past is called learning from our history, Governor. It may not be entirely convenient for your ticket, but it's actually quite a noble endeavor.
Oh, and, it's a superficial point, but her saying "nucular" grated my nerves, too. I speak an entirely different regional accent and dialect from Palin, and I've heard my friends occasionally say "nucular" in quick-flowing conversation, but she says "nucular" even when she's enunciating. It's like she's trying to *insist* that it's pronounced "nucular." Oy, I was just thinking earlier today that Gov. Palin is the new GW Bush: every time I see a picture of her, she looks dumber. This "nucular" pronunciation just drives it home. I was also rather amused (read: self-righteous) when she misused "attribute" and abused the word "impact," so maybe that's just my English Major soul rearing its snarky head.
Moreover, am I the only one who's rather annoyed at how much she talks about Alaska? Sen. Biden sometimes talks about Delaware and Pennsylvania, but his MO is very different. When Gov. Palin brings up Alaska...I'm not even entirely sure what she's trying to accomplish, except for sometimes when she shamelessly exploits the culture wars with her, "Look at me, I'm a hockey mom!" spiel and the East Coast/flyover divide. I'm especially annoyed with the way she talks about Washington. She thinks we need good people from Wasilla over here to show us how ordinary Americans live? Has it not occurred to her that plenty of ordinary Americans grow up and live in and near Washington DC? Does she think Washingtonians don't "sit around the kitchen table"? Has she even been here yet?
Sorry, had to get that out of the way. Overall, I'm disappointed with the debate. I think Biden gave the better answers, but in terms of delivery, Palin held her own very well. That shouldn't really matter in how the debate is perceived, but really, it kind of does come into the picture. I wanted to see some carnage, and Sen. Biden was way too polite. He should have said more about VAWA, in contrast to Gov. Palin's (pathetic) record on women's rights, but the format didn't give him a chance. I wanted to see him ask her, "You keep talking about how cutting taxes will create jobs, but what kind of history do you base that on?" He was totally spot-on in pointing out that he knows what it's like to be a single parent, and struggle to take care of his family, and that he knows tragedy. Good on him, to remind us that he's a man *and* he knows what it's like to be on his own with a struggling family. But he should have cornered her more.
As a big supporter of gay marriage, I'm disappointed that both candidates said they opposed gay marriage (leaving it "up to indivudual faiths" sounds nice, but they still have to be recognized by the government for benefits) but heartened that they both support civil unions. Of course, they both dodged a bullet since they weren't asked about, or brought up, gay couples adopting/having children.
And while I stopped watching at 10:00, to me the most telling difference was when discussing Israel. Biden provided very specific, detailed examples of how the Bush policy made the Middle East significantly worse. Palin responded with a very generic criticism about how Democrats were always looking back, then said that Bush's policies worked great without offering anything specific to support it.
PS: I loved the part where she said "leave" instead of "lead"!
Rudy Giuliani, Fox News @ 11:23PM:
She did better in this debate than anyone he's ever seen in a debate. He isn't on any drugs we should be making the NYPD aware of, is he?
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26995439?GT1=43001
Who won the VP debate? * 262895 responses
Joe Biden
53%
Sarah Palin
37%
Tie
4.5%
Not sure
5.5%
Not a scientific survey. Click to learn more. Results may not total 100% due to rounding.
Joe Lieberman and Hannity are now have orgasms telling each other how great Palin was and how masterfully she won that debate. Joe Lieberman really needs to just change that letter to in front of his name to an "R" and get it over with.
Posted by: critter42
Let me lay my cards on the table. I am *more* than well aware of the "correct" pronunciation of the word. I was in the Nuclear Navy. I went to Naval Nuclear Power School. I was a Nuclear-qualified Electrician's Mate. My best friend from the Navy still works at a nuclear power plant. We both still (and many of the people we went to power school with, especially from the south and west) pronounce it "nucular" - it is part of our dialect. If you think it makes me sound stupid, eff you.
And the former Naval officer whose pronunciation of it that way first brought it to the public attention helped create the freakin' school.
Posted by: Tim Lynch at October 2, 2008 09:59 PM
Jiminy Christmas - would people just lay the eff off of this?
No.
I'm not saying it's the most important thing in the world, but willful ignorance of the English language is something that I really cannot abide.
If that's what annoys you the most in the last eight years, then I respectfully submit that you haven't been paying much attention.
I have to agree. So why does it bug you so much?
Posted by: David
Maybe he opposes the war now because the strategy, goals and intelligence are different than when he voted for it? Just an idea.
Except that they aren't - or, rather, the strategy and goals are still as completely udefined as they ever were, and intelligence is still completely lacking.
Posted by: Matt Adler
"Nucular" is no more part of a dialect than "axing" someone a question. If you know the correct pronunciation and still can't be bothered to say it correctly, you're showing both laziness and contempt for the importance of communication, an attitude which usually passes on to the next generation in more prominent ways.
They are *precisely* part of a dialect - and if you can't accept that, then i and my Yat friends and our friends from the Nint' Wawd suggest that, perhaps, you should stay home where such things will not offend your tender sensibilities...
Posted by: Jerry Chandler
Is it just me or does she still sound like she's giving answers in the Miss Alaska contest?
ITYM "Miss South Carolina".
Posted by: Red Monster
...am I the only one who's rather annoyed at how much she talks about Alaska? Sen. Biden sometimes talks about Delaware and Pennsylvania, but his MO is very different. When Gov. Palin brings up Alaska...I'm not even entirely sure what she's trying to accomplish, except for sometimes when she shamelessly exploits the culture wars with her, "Look at me, I'm a hockey mom!" spiel and the East Coast/flyover divide.
What would you? Alaska (hah, got it right) is all she *has*.
MSNBC's poll results? Come on, lowest ratings of any of the major cable news networks and only watched by liberals. Are we supposed to be surprised that most democrats think Biden won?
Hey, look, DrudgeReport.com:
Palin 72% 114,130
Biden 26% 40,995
Neither 2% 2,871
Now I'll go see if RushLimbauh.com has a poll...
As Tom Brokaw said, "The Democrats are glad there is only one vice presidential debate."
She kicked his ***
Am I the only one wondering why Palin seemed to blink on quite a regular basis during the debate?
It was almost like she was sending out coded messages or something.
CNN vote of debate watchers: Biden 51, Palin 36
CBS poll of undecideds: Biden 46, Palin 21
James,
That was the third poll I mentioned. One was even on Fox. That's just the first one I linked because it was the first one I came across that had a link.
mike weber,
ITYM "Miss South Carolina".
No, I mean Miss Alaska. Palin came in second place at the 1984 Miss Alaska pageant.
Terry,
Did you swipe some of Rush's drugs again?
Posted by Jerry Chandler
mike weber,
ITYM "Miss South Carolina".
No, I mean Miss Alaska. Palin came in second place at the 1984 Miss Alaska pageant.
Yeah; i know. But remember last year's Miss SC pageant and the national headlines? And it looks as if i'm not the only one to think of the comparison, judging by this piece in The New Republic i'm not the only one to think of it.
And, here's a cartoon from 1 October that pretty well sums up why some people are rating Palin's performance so unrealistically high.
Joe Lieberman really needs to just change that letter to in front of his name to an "R" and get it over with.
Oh, it'll happen. As soon as the new Congress is sworn in with a larger majority in the Senate, I bet he loses his chairmanship.
As for the "nucular" thing -- Mike, I'll answer you because I've had a lot of respect for you and your words here (as opposed to "critter", who apparently flitted over here JUST to complain about this one issue).
It bugs me because, as a physics teacher, I consider precision of language important. Word pronunciation is not the same issue as word choice, to be sure, but I consider them something of a piece.
There also, I think, is a real difference between those who mispronounce something out of initial ignorance and then correct it, and those who stick with a faulty pronunciation after being told repeatedly what the correct pronunciation is. (I know lots of people who learned words by reading them and had no idea how to pronounce them until corrected.)
Primarily, though, I suspect that it's because the same people who are out in the public eye using "nucular" on a regular basis have proven themselves to be slack-jawed idiots on so many OTHER things that a connection's been made in my subconscious.
That was probably a much longer response than this issue really deserves, honestly, but you asked a fair question and I felt it deserved a fair and full answer.
Now, can we all move on from this particular point?
TWL
it so obvious that she was nothing but a parrot,saying just what her handlers wanted her to say.absolutly nothing original. she coverd all her talking points even if it had nothing to do with the question asked.i was just waiting for someone ,Biden or the moderator to scream please answer the question, it never happened. biden could not do it because he would have been called sexist,picking on the poor little female candidate. Iffel (not sure of the spellig here) couldn't do it because the "problem"with her book was brought up by the McCain campagin. She could be comfrontational as Jim Leher was when he was prodding MCain and Obama last week to look at each other ,or comment that questions were not answered.
what was clear was she still does not know the role of the vice-president. she wants to expand the power and role of the vice-president in congress....coould not belive it...thank god Biden couldn't believe it either! she gave him a great opening to not only teach her a civics lesson on the vice-president's but was able to take a much needed shot at DICK CHEENEY one of the men most responsible for the eroding of civil rights in this post 9/11 world. that was genuine anger from the senator on thatsubject...it was great and about time.
did anyone also notice she doesn't have any achilles heal. probably didn't know what it meant.
finally i gave up on the post debate talk when Pat Buchannan nearly,probably did, wet his pants in telling the msnbc audience how great she did. Even Rachael Maddow was speechless at his response.
To take it one unnecessary step further, Ebonics: dialect or ignorance?
Calling a Sub sandwich a hoagy is dialect; calling it a hokey is ignorance. Or a hearing impairment, which is forgivable.
Palin is just a smarmy, self-righteous worm trying to chisel into pavement while drowning in the deluge.
I've suffered the soccer mom route x3, the baseball mom x4, even Challengers league. What the hell about being a sports mom makes ANYONE qualified to hold a presidential/VP position? Arrggghhh!
I have lost all faith in the intelligence of this country. Time to buy up land in Montana and form my own compound.
"Yeah; i know. But remember last year's Miss SC pageant and the national headlines?"
The SC Teen thing? Yeah, I remember that. I've used that one before when talking about Palin, but I thought that she actually wasn't that bad last night. I just thought that she sounded so canned and I love the world-ish last night that she sounded like she was still doing pagents rather than a debate.
"To take it one unnecessary step further, Ebonics: dialect or ignorance?"
Ignorance.
This thread's about to get fun.
As Tom Brokaw said, "The Democrats are glad there is only one vice presidential debate."
True enough, if only because watching Biden mop the floor with her a second time could be borderline painful.
She kicked his ***
In fantasy land, perhaps. Not by any realistic measure.
PAD
David (who's not PAD) - That Bridge to Nowhere line was pure pwnage.
What? And people complain about "nucular"?!
Even here, in Canada, a Montreal French-language TV station's news clip mentioned that, according to them, observers had given Palin good points on the debate. Clearly something got lost in translation.
Palin "won" the debate in exactly the same way the last place finisher in a Special Olympics event is a "winner".
She had the courage to get out there and try, but she was totally outclassed...
"One of the panelists who says she'll vote for Palin describes her rationale by saying that Palin is a "real person", and so forth.
I just had that talk with a co-worker. He heard the debate and said that Palin won it because she's more real tham Biden or Obama. I asked him what he meant and he said that she just comes off as more of a regular person."
That makes sense. Nobody wants a synthetic person, android, cyborg, cylon, super computer or clone at he white house.
"Yeah, what does McCain have against Spain?"
Spanish-American war. He still holds a grudge. Remember the Maine.
Well, at this point McCain's got no business complaining about how the debate was carried out. Ifill was entirely fair to both candidates and Biden practically bent over backwards to play nice with Palin. She appeared very confident and if McCain is unhappy with her performance in terms of the substance of her answers, he has no one to blame but the both of them.
Okay, time to 'fess up, everyone. Who else is disappointed that Biden was so damned polite with Palin? I wanted to see him in attack dog mode. I know that's not what he was "supposed" to do in order to appeal to the undecideds, but it's what I wanted to see.
Spanish-American war. He still holds a grudge. Remember the Maine.
That would explain Palin's references to General McClellan -- maybe McCain's war experiences go further back than we thought?
To take it one unnecessary step further, Ebonics: dialect or ignorance?Ignorance.
No word is interchangeable with the thing it represents. It's an ignorance to the inherent deadness of language to think the words you use are somehow more faithful than the varying words others use to refer to the same thing.
Look through a copy of Baker's Nat Turner. Mismanaging the intimacy of their communications got black abolitionists killed. That's ignorance, too.
Red Monster: Okay, time to 'fess up, everyone. Who else is disappointed that Biden was so damned polite with Palin?
Not me, I thought he was perfect. We don't need weeks of headlines about the McCain camp calling Biden sexist. We need this to fade away with the majority of people acknowledging that Biden did a better job.
It's like diplomacy. Would it be satisfying to see our leaders yell at Kim Jong il and berate him for doing such a horrible job with North Korea? Yes, that would be great to watch. However, it would make things worse instead of better. It may be satisfying to insult, but being polite and intelligent is how our leaders defuse a situation and make progress. The fact that Biden was polite in the situation is part of what makes me want to vote for him and Obama.
There's something that I wondered about. There are a lot of comments here and I'm afraid I can't go through them all to see if somebody's mentioned this already, so if somebody has I apologize for going over old ground.
Here it is: Palin said that a McCain administration wouldn't do anything to prohibit visitation in hospitals for same-sex couples. But the problem, as I understand it, is that right now the status quo DOES prohibit anybody who isn't family from seeing a patient. Same-sex partners are not considered family.
So for Palin to say "we won't do anything to prohibit it" means nothing. It's already prohibited. The question is whether or not a McCain administration would do anything to change that, or whether they would just ignore the problem.
9:38: Well, that's a damned shame that they don't support that. Makes him no better than Palin.
It's unfortunate, yes. The thing is that this is the answer politicians on both sides of the aisle would give if you asked them about same-sex marriage. Kerry and Edwards, you might recall, both supported civil unions, but they weren't comfortable with those unions being called "marriages." That's better than nothing, but it's really not good enough. As MightyGodKing said not that long ago in the comments section of one of his posts:
"In a moral sense, calling it anything but marriage is enforcing a separate-but-equal doctrine, which may be easier to implement but on a moral level is profoundly insulting. (”Gays can’t get married. That’s for straight people. Gays can get civilly unioned.”) Given the level of disassociation and ostricization that many gay people have to accept simply to live their lives and how that alienation in turn affects their mental health, endorsing it with the language of the state is simply mendacious."
Ok, so if I read all these headlines right, Palin comes out ahead because, for her, a "tie is a win".
Huh?
You mean public expectation of her is so low that she doesn't need to be rational or inspirational, she just needs to stand up and speak without crying or breaking a nail (or answering a question) and that makes her a winner? This makes her a good potential President? That when Hezbollah tells her to go home and bake cookies, she won't stutter, but tell them she's um, a maverick hockey-mom, gosh darn it?
Well, at least her lipstick was on straight.
Where oh where are you, Hillary, swinging your designer bag of testicles and pecking your opponents to death with your sharp beak? At least you can speak without a teleprompter.
Hi All,
Ok, on the blinking. I was watching on CNNHD (the only HD channel that I can find quickly carrying the debate...) and the problem was her hair. They needed to cut her bangs back a little more, she had hair in her eyes and it was bothering her. She finally got it out her eyes after about 15 minutes.
Second NUCULAR is an ACCEPTED pronunciation for nuclear. I know that some don't like it, but it was what I always said. Now, while I am not a nuclear engineer, I am an electrical engineer with a MS:ECE, so it isn't education level. It just depends on where you picked it up. I think I did in all those 'B' movies from the 50's and 60's!
Finally, I kept hoping EITHER candidate would actually answer the question that was asked. Both kept going to what ever canned answer they had prepared rather than addressing the question. My favorite evasion was when Biden was asked what promises he would not be able to keep, and went into a tirade about Bush policies that they would not keep. I kept shouting at the screen "So, when did YOU promise to do THAT!"
I'm getting very frustrated that so far the media isn't digging into that expanded VP Powers comment Palin blurted out. That's dangerous given that we have Cheney in Office dictating policy and making up powers and saying he can make up facts about invading a country. And Palin wants more? Hell no. Any self respecting American should say hell no as well.
Finally, I kept hoping EITHER candidate would actually answer the question that was asked. Both kept going to what ever canned answer they had prepared rather than addressing the question.
Palin did it more. A LOT more.
You mean public expectation of her is so low that she doesn't need to be rational or inspirational, she just needs to stand up and speak without crying or breaking a nail (or answering a question) and that makes her a winner?
Well, most of the pundits on CNN last night didn't feel Palin "won", but they felt that she had improved her public image because she sounded better than she did with Couric.
I'm gonna copy and paste something I posted elsewhere now. Here it is:
Palin closed by saying that she wanted to talk directly to the people without the "filter" of the mainstream media.
By Palin's definition, talking directly to the people means blathering on about whatever the hell you feel like talking about while ignoring the question that's been posed to you. She wasn't able to do that with Couric. She had somebody asking her about specific things, and she wasn't able to give non-sequitur answers without looking bad. So she floundered.
I prefer somebody who is willing to have a dialogue, who is willing to answer any and all questions posed to him or her. I would be interested to see how well Palin would have been able to handle herself if the format were different, if Ifill said at any point "You didn't answer the question. Please answer the question before we move on."
Or if Ifill had the authority to just cut off a candidate's mike if she or he went off-topic. I know that cutting mikes is a Billo move and thus usually a dick move, but Palin would deserve it.
One theory I've seen kicked around is that the McCain campaign will now hide her away. Well, more-so.
She did better in this debate than she had been doing in interviews. Why screw that up? If they put her in Cheney's hidden bunker right now, then this debate will be the last thing people remember seeing from her. So they might not let her do any more interviews with real reporters. The occasional FOX News interview, but no real reporters.
but they felt that she had improved her public image because she sounded better than she did with Couric.
She could've suddenly come down with Tourette's last night and still sounded better than the interview with Couric.
Apropos of nothing except for the guy who chose Gov. Palin as his running mate: have you all seen this story?
I hope it's a hoax, but fear it isn't.
For what it's worth... Post-debate coverage from FactCheck.org and Politifact.com.
My only comment about it all is just that I'm kind of tired of McCain/Palin continually referring to themselves as mavericks. To me that's something that you leave to other people to decide, you can't just bestow it upon yourself. They should at least confine themselves to using it only in reference to each other, but continually saying "I'm a maverick" (instead of the less boastful "I'm known by some as something of a maverick" or even "I've earned a reputation as something of a maverick") just seems wrong to me. It's too short and quick to the point without enough humility. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it and, for me anyway, it's gotten tiresome.
Red Monster, that story sounds very, very fishy. A man who wants to be President saying obviously racist things about his adopted daughter? I smell hoax.
Snopes has an article about this story. They can't prove that it is false, but they have found out that the person it is atributed to didn't write it.
I found the Snopes page about two minutes after I posted the link.
My only comment about it all is just that I'm kind of tired of McCain/Palin continually referring to themselves as mavericks. To me that's something that you leave to other people to decide, you can't just bestow it upon yourself.
THANK YOU. I was thinking that too.
It's fine if somebody else calls you a maverick, it's even okay if you say "I've been called a maverick", but don't say "I AM a maverick." You even have to be careful with the "I've been called a maverick" thing; repeat it too often, and it gets to sound like bragging.
People usually don't respond well to somebody talking about how great they are. Obama hasn't said he thinks he's great as far as I know. He's talked about what he planned to do, and he's said that the country needed somebody different from George Bush, which is him.
Peter, if you're still keeping track, I think last night's debate fits within that strange West Wing model in that I think I remember what's-his-name on the show starting slow and then finishing strong in his Veep debate, too.
Red Monster wrote:
"Apropos of nothing except for the guy who chose Gov. Palin as his running mate: have you all seen this story? I hope it's a hoax, but fear it isn't."
LOL… I find it laughable you “fear” that this story might be true. That letter reads like the typical DNC attack/talking points against McCain. It’s a fake but so many of the gullible McCain haters are so desperate to believe such could be true. Dream on…