June 20, 2007

FF: Rise of the Silver Surfer

So Kath and I went to see the latest FF movie the other day.

I liked it. Liked it a lot. Liked it beyond the whole "It's a lot better than the first effort" vibe. The plot hung together, the actors were far more comfortable inhabiting the skins of their characters, the entire family vibe was pitch perfect. Bottom line, THIS incarnation of Reed, Sue, Ben and Johnny actually seemed to like each other...even love each other. In getting that right, it provided a foundation for a quality film that simply wasn't present in the first go around.

On top of that, we have the Silver Surfer. Understand, I remember when a Surfer movie was being discussed decades ago, back when such an endeavor would have required an actor painted in silver and standing on a board...a less than impressive prospect. No more. Now we have a Surfer who is a combined effort of special effects wizards, Doug Jones, and Laurence Fishburne, and the results are spectacular.

And ultimately? It feels and "reads" like a 1960s Stan and Jack effort.

How many Marvel films can you really say that about? That they feel THAT old school, that you can bring your kids to it with relative impunity? It's not dark, foreboding, terrifying...it's the Lee/Kirby FF, right down to such story developments as Doc Doom endeavoring to steal the power of the Silver Surfer.

And yeah, yeah, yeah, Galactus is a cloud. But you know what? Galactus was always presented as a force of nature anyway, so hell, why not take that to its logical extreme? Personally, I think "Ghostbusters" has forever ruined the concept of some big terrifying entity stomping about New York City anyway.

Definitely worth your time and money.

PAD

Posted by Peter David at June 20, 2007 01:12 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commenting
Comments
Posted by: OctEgon at June 20, 2007 01:56 PM

I don't like the greasy, charismatic Doom. I want the scarred and pissed off Doom

Posted by: Deifire at June 20, 2007 02:03 PM

Oh, great! Now I have this image of Galactus as the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man in my head for the rest of eternity...

Posted by: Speaker at June 20, 2007 02:04 PM

I tried to like it but couldn't. They stripped Sue down to just a nagging house wife. And Reed's powers were only ever used for jokes.

There's more, but those are possibly my two biggest complaints.

Posted by: Robert Fuller at June 20, 2007 02:06 PM

Wow, did we see the same movie? I even liked the first movie, so I didn't expect this one to be so... incredibly... bad! Somehow, the acting is even worse this time, the dialogue was so horrendous it made me want to weep at times, the attempts at humor were nauseating, and the plot didn't make a lick of sense.

I didn't care about Galactus being a cloud so much. I took more issue with the fact that the Surfer being separated from his board makes him lose his CGI. I just don't know what to say about that.

Posted by: Zeekar at June 20, 2007 02:25 PM

Sue wasn't a nagging housewife. She was a bride-to-be. Very different vibe, and totally realistic given the situation. And Reed's powers were important. Besides supporting the . . . uhm . . . dagnab no-spoilers rule . . . large round structure in the vicinity of the water, for instance, they were important to the denoument.

And I agree, this one was very good. Much better than Spidey 3, IMESHO.

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 20, 2007 02:28 PM

It's amazing to see the number of completely polarizing views and reviews of this film. But then, it's becoming like that for every film, isn't it?

Personally, I enjoyed it a lot and thought it was better than the first. Galactus is still an impressive visual, and even Alba's eyes weren't quite so freaky after awhile. The "how do you beat Galactus" outcome seems a little too simple, but for all I know that's how it went in the original story.

Doom was probably my big disappointment. McMahon just doesn't bring the right presence to the role, and, in seeing the plague spread from the Spidey films, he spends more time without the mask than with.

As for the "lose his CGI" with Surfer, I think the change in color, from shiny silver to dull, was simply to show that the board is his power. I don't see anything wrong with that, and it still looked fine to me.

Posted by: Jerry Chandler at June 20, 2007 03:04 PM

Not really bad, but if I never see it again I won't be sad about it. Still, it was better then Ghost Rider.

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 20, 2007 03:17 PM

"And yeah, yeah, yeah, Galactus is a cloud."

Um... Spoiler?

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 20, 2007 03:26 PM

I liked it lots and as a huge Silver Surfer mark I had pretty high standards. They did right by the character and he looked great.

Doom was terrible, both in his snarky Eric Bischoff persona (seriously, I could not get his resemblance to the former WCW chairman out of my mind) and in his armored role. He looked better this time but Doom should not be tossing off weak one-liners like "you want my board? Well come and take it, Richards!" or whatever. This is the freaking Lord of Latveria, not the guy that Reed pantsed at a frat party.

But I agree with PAD's review--the family dynamics were good, the jokes were amusing (the kid filled room I saw it with was roaring to a degree I haven't seen at most comedies) and while I think they could have pulled off a more mechanical Kirbyesque Galactus, I was satisfied with what they did.

Posted by: Peter David at June 20, 2007 03:57 PM

"And yeah, yeah, yeah, Galactus is a cloud."

Um... Spoiler?"

Um...no. It's been discussed on line for six months, it was in the trailer, and it's in the first ten minutes of the film. There's spoilers and then there's taking things to the point of absurdity.

PAD

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 20, 2007 04:16 PM

Well, this was the first place I heard about it. And having not seen the film yet, I was unaware it was revealed in the first ten minutes. I admit that one mitigates concern over spoilers, but the first two qualifiers (online discussions and trailers) do not. Trailers often give away far to much material. Subsequently, I don't watch trailers. Online discussions often use spoiler warnings (particularly this blog of yours, hence my question as to whether this qualifies as a spoiler as opposed to an accusation) and I participate in almost zero online discussions anyway.

Posted by: Jerry Chandler at June 20, 2007 04:29 PM

Yeah, It's been on line for six months or so, but not everybody knows that. Some people don't surf the web as much as others, some don't blog on lots of different sites and still others may avoid online spoiler types of sites.

I had only once come across the then rumor of what Galactus might be in the film months ago and had forgotten about it. I tend to read sites that have strong spoiler rules or warning systems and don't blog in lots of places. I can't be alone in this.

But to be fair to both sides, you shouldn't log on to a discussion thread about a film/show that you haven't seen yet but plan to see. Unless the comments are restricted to just whether or not people liked it, you've gotta expect to see comments about things that are actually IN the movie that you've yet to see.

Still, it's alway nice to tag a thread as allowing or restricting spoiler posts or comments.

Posted by: hoymurphy at June 20, 2007 04:52 PM

I liked it much better than the first, and it was a lot more fun and faithful than any of the Spider-Man movies, which I also liked.

My kids took me for father's day and we all had a ball, even my wife who doesn't much like comics. This was as close to getting true Silver Age Lee/Kirby on the screen as I ever could hope for. Getting three of the their best stories on the big screen in one big movie was an exciting experience. I grinned through the whole thing. I'm not sure the critics understand the family dynamic that has made the FF so popular through the decades. I think it's telling that one of the reasons it is doing so well is because it's a family movie.

Reed is my favorite FF member, so I was especially glad to see that he became more authoritative and more of a leader this time, and the special stretching effects were outstanding. I'm definitely going to see this one in the theater again.

Hoy Murphy

Posted by: Mike M at June 20, 2007 04:55 PM

This spoiler discussion is just plain ridiculous. What Galactus looks like is just not a spoiler. It doesn't spoil anything in the story at all. If he said how Galactus was defeated (OMG, spoiler!! The bad guy loses in the end) or what happens after Johnny first encounters the Surfer (OMG, another spoiler...Johnny has a run in with the Surfer), then maybe I could understand the point of this whining.

As for the movie itself, I enjoyed it quite a bit. Just a fun popcorn movie, better than the first one (which I enjoyed too).

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 20, 2007 05:09 PM

"What Galactus looks like is just not a spoiler. It doesn't spoil anything in the story at all"

That's your perspective. But there is no decree that what you find to be important in this regard is universal.

"then maybe I could understand the point of this whining."

It was a question. Nice of you to reinterpret it as something more. Says bundles about your disposition.

Posted by: j caskey at June 20, 2007 05:39 PM

I thought it was terrible. Reed NEVER seems in command, Doom comes off less like a major threat and more like a villain from a daytime soap, and the recap by Ben when they all rode in the Fanatasticar was the most stilted dialogue I've heard in a long time. BIG disappointment.
Having said that, the Surfer was awesome,(though I'm waiting for the inevitable Youtube remix using Fishbourne's lines from What's love got to do with it, and Ben and Johnny are spot on for me.

Posted by: Adam at June 20, 2007 05:59 PM

It was heads above the first movie, and I was grinning throughout almost all of it. Boat-loads of classic superhero fun, very much Lee and Kirby's adventure series brought to life on the screen.

That said, there's an obvious problem with a third movie, which is that (sorry, FF fans) Fantastic Four basically topped out back in the 60's with the stories they used in this film; the F.F. never managed to produce iconically powerful stories again after Lee and Kirby.

After the first Spider-Man, we were waiting with bated breath to see how they'd handle Doc Ock, Harry as the new Goblin, and Venom. After the first X-Men movie, in which the X-Men dealt with the mutant side of extremism, it was time for the human side - and after that, the Dark Phoenix Saga was a no-brainer. Were Daredevil to receive an unlikely sequel, it would be Born Again time.

But Doom, Silver Surfer, and Galactus were the only concepts that've come out of the Fantastic Four series popular enough to achieve iconic status. What's FF.3 going to offer that we're going to be thrilled about after Galactus? The Mole Man? Annihilus and the Negative Zone? Psycho-Man? The Frightful Four?

All DECENT concepts, but certainly not in the same league as Galactus, Surfer, and Doom - and sequels have to take things up a notch.

Their best bet would probably be the Black Panther, but I think those rights have already been signed away.

Posted by: George Haberberger at June 20, 2007 06:09 PM

I liked it a lot. I liked it more than Spider-Man 3 which was just spoiled by changing the guy who killed Uncle Ben,

I thought Stan Lee's cameo was great, right out of FF Annual #4. The family dynamic was spot on. The Surfer was perfect. People who don't like this movie don't like Lee and Kirby's FF.

George

Posted by: George Haberberger at June 20, 2007 06:09 PM

I liked it a lot. I liked it more than Spider-Man 3 which was just spoiled by changing the guy who killed Uncle Ben,

I thought Stan Lee's cameo was great, right out of FF Annual #4. The family dynamic was spot on. The Surfer was perfect. People who don't like this movie don't like Lee and Kirby's FF.

George

Posted by: Joe Nazzaro at June 20, 2007 06:13 PM

In Peter's defense, he usually goes out of his way to signpost spoilers well after the point when most people involved in a discussion should know what's going on. And it's also safe to think that if somebody is reading this blog, they're probably reading one or more comic book or SF-related sites, in which this is pretty much old news.

I have to say, I liked the sequel more than the original, but that's a bit like saying I liked getting hit in the head with a brick rather than getting hit in the head with a cannonball. My main reason for seeing it was because I wanted to see what Doug Jones, one of the nicest guys in the industry and a tremendous non-verbal performer could do with the Surfer. In that regard, the combination of Jones, Weta (who did the digital FX) and Spectral Motion (who created the starting point suit used on set) did a great job. I also think that Spectral did a nice job in improving the Thing suit, although I still wish they had been allowed to go even further with the brow, but I suppose one could still argue that this is the original Kirby Thing seen in the first year or so of the book.

I suppose my problems with the second film are pretty much the same as the first, namely the terrible miscasting of Julian McMahon and Jessica Alba. Don't get me wrong, I think they're both superb actors; they're just not right for these roles. Why cast a beautiful Latin actress and then put her in a blonde wig and blue contacts which simply don't work with her natural skin coloration? And I agree with the previous post about wanting to see a scarred version of Doom, not the pretty boy version, who should have been seen for all of five minutes in the first movie until a big-ass machine blows up in his face, scarring him forever. And (spoiler warning coming up) Doom is basically regenerated into Pretty Boy Doom, doesn't that pretty much take away the rationale for wearing a heavy uncomfortable mask? And unfortunately, McMahon's voice also lets down what should have been a major moment in the film, which was the meeting between the Surfer and Doom: his voice just doesn't have the gravitas of say, a James Earl Jones, a Patrick Stewart or a Ian McKellan and the scene suffers as a result.

Finally (and one more spoiler coming) I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but the obligatory Stan Lee cameos are really starting to get on my nerves. I know, long-time fans will be happy to remind me that both Lee and Kirby tried to crash Reed and Sue's wedding in the original story only to be turned away, but the fact that Lee had played Willie Lumpkin the mailman in the first film should have precluded him from playing STAN LEE in the second one. I find it mildly insulting that in their pursuit of 'Wouldn't it be really cool if...' that somebody had to say, 'Don't worry, nobody will notice!'

All of that being said, I also have to admit that I wasn't in the greatest mood to see the film because of the guy sitting front row center who was playing with his Sidekick the entire time, and since he was sitting in the front, there was no way to get away from that brightly lit screen in the front. After a half hour, I had to go to the manager and ask if they would either throw him out or give me a ticket for the next showing. Needless to say, they didn't want to throw him out, so I went to the next show and had to sit through the first half hour all over again. Doesn't really put you in the right kind of mood to enjoy a film.

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 20, 2007 06:28 PM

"In Peter's defense, he usually goes out of his way to signpost spoilers well after the point when most people involved in a discussion should know what's going on."

Yes. As I said: "Online discussions often use spoiler warnings (particularly this blog of yours, hence my question as to whether this qualifies as a spoiler as opposed to an accusation."

Posted by: hoymurphy at June 20, 2007 07:35 PM

Galactus eats planets. Of course he's going to be surrounded by a cloud of gas.

Hoy Murphy (burp)

Posted by: NoelCT at June 20, 2007 07:38 PM

Slightly off topic since I haven't seen the movie yet, but:

Why didn't you write the novelization for this one, PAD?

I'm guessing you just had a bit too much on your plate at the time (multiple comics, new original novel, Spidey 3 adaptation, etc.) and had to pass. Would that be it?

Posted by: Jason Allen at June 20, 2007 09:44 PM

I liked the original Fantastic Four movie, and I loved this one. It didn't have me closing my eyes or wincing like I did all through Spider-Man 3, and had humor that actually made me laugh. Best of all, it had heroes that actually seemed heroic to me. I'm looking forward to seeing it again.

Posted by: Marv at June 20, 2007 09:57 PM

I wasn't as disappointed with the cloud Galactus as I thought I would be going into the film. I thought it was a really good movie.

Posted by: Rick Keating at June 20, 2007 10:17 PM

Joe Nazzaro said, "but the fact that Lee had played Willie Lumpkin the mailman in the first film should have precluded him from playing STAN LEE in the second one."

That's just it, Joe. It wasn't Stan Lee at the wedding. Would you believe it was Willie Lumpkin trying to pass himself off as Stan Lee?

You find that hard to believe?

How about J. Jonah Jameson posing as Willie Lumpkin posing as Stan Lee?

No? Then what about-

Seriously, I know what you're saying. In fact, it would have been amusing if he'd played Willie Lumpkin, and wasn't able to get in.

"But I'm their mailman. Reed Richards knows me, personally."

"Sure he does, pal. He just forgot to put your name on the list. One of the downsides of knowing them absent-minded types. Take a hike."

Or words to that effect.

That having been said, I'll take this Stan Lee cameo over the one in Spider-Man 3.

But you know what would have been really great? If Julie Schwartz were still alive and he'd made a cameo in a Marvel movie (with, Stan, of course, doing the same in a DC movie). Yeah, I know. It probably never would have happened, but it still would have been cool.

As to the film, I enjoyed it. No Butler ex Machina. That's very important. Though I agree with Joe Nazzaro that Doom's reasons for wearing the heavy, uncomfortable mask were pretty vague. Or should we say pretty much non-existent.

The title's interesting, though. Rise of the Silver Surfer. Why "rise", which, among other things, suggests a resurrection and/or an ascendancy in power? That title would fit, for example, in a movie about Norrin Radd's transformation.

Why not "Ride of the Silver Surfer" instead? After all, he does ride around on his board. Well that's easy. Most people would mentally add a "B" to the beginning and spend the whole movie asking, "where is she?"

Rick

Posted by: Eric Qel-Droma at June 20, 2007 10:23 PM

My question about the whole "Galactus-cloud" thing is this: They constantly refer to the cloud as "he." Why couldn't we have at least gotten a Kirby-Galactus silhouette at some point during the climax, just to show that there was something IN the cloud?

Posted by: Rick Keating at June 20, 2007 10:40 PM

Eric,

I don't recall anyone using the pronoun "he" with reference to the cloud. The Surfer said his people call it Galactus.

Are you sure "he" didn't refer to the Surfer?

Rick

Posted by: Darren Hudak at June 20, 2007 10:40 PM

1//Oh, great! Now I have this image of Galactus as the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man in my head for the rest of eternity...//

Not that far off. Dan Aykroyd was, (and maybe still is) a comics fan, in at least one interview he acknowledged that the Marshmallow Man was a homage/parody of Galatus.

Posted by: Doug Atkinson at June 20, 2007 10:48 PM

Though I agree with Joe Nazzaro that Doom's reasons for wearing the heavy, uncomfortable mask were pretty vague. Or should we say pretty much non-existent.

Hey, it's an ancient Latverian symbol of benevolence, man. Or something, anyway. (A friend and I burst into uncontrollable laughter when they first showed the mask in the first movie, with the plaque "Thanks from the people of Latveria" or something like that. I can just see it: "In recognition of your tireless efforts following the Doomstadt Earthquake of '94, we, the people of Latveria, present you with the traditional Scary Iron Mask of Charity.")

Posted by: Joe Nazzaro at June 20, 2007 11:21 PM

Okay, here's my favorite FF2 story. Back in September, I get a call from Doug Jones, who's coming into New York from the FF for a day or two to do some promotion for Pan's Labyrinth and would I like to maybe meet up for lunch? So we're sitting in some cafe uptown, and I suddenly thought to myself, 'Holy shit, I'm sitting here with the Silver Surfer!' I guess you'd have to be a comics fan going back to the classic Lee/Kirby comics of the sixties to appreciate the sheer coolness factor of that moment for me!

Posted by: DoctorMe at June 20, 2007 11:25 PM

Did we see the same movie?!

I have a feeling Peter's making sure he's not burning any bridges.

Posted by: R. Maheras at June 20, 2007 11:41 PM

I liked the movie, but didn't like Galactus, the cloud. It reminded me too much of Ego, The Living Planet.

I couldn't help thinking that the only reason Galactus was a cloud was because of budget limitations.

Posted by: JamesLynch at June 21, 2007 12:10 AM

I liked the original FANTASTIC FOUR movie (the one with the same cast as RISE, not the Harvey Corman bomb), but I thought RISE OF THE SILVER SURFER was absolutely terrible. The first half had nothing but bad comedy (notably Reed's "dance") and the second half had more bad comedy with the power swapping. There wasn't a single good line of dialogue, and Chiklis and Braugher's massive talent was not used at all here. And the only slightly exciting part was the initial chase with the Torch and Surfer; after that, all downhill.

In fairness, I didn't mind Galactus becoming a cloud: How would the non-comic book folks have reacted to a giant in a purple-and-blue outfit with a tall helmet with flat horns? And that's about everything good I can say about this.

BTW, why was the Surfer making giant holes around the world? The only reason I can find for this is because the filmmakers decided it was more exciting than just having him fly around until Galactus came to chow down.

(And in the shameless plug category, my full review of this is at The Armchair Critic, http://thearmchaircritic.blogspot.com/ )

Posted by: Nytwyng at June 21, 2007 12:26 AM

My only interest in it is morbid curiosity. I'm sure I'll end up seeing it on cable sometime. That's how we saw the first one. For better or for worse, our five year old loved that one. And, he wants to see this one. Personally, I'd rather have my eyes gouged out.

I'm not spending a penny to see it, though (beyond what we already pay for cable movie channels, that is...they'll run it whether we subscribe to those channels or not). Nor am I making any special effort to do so.

Posted by: BrakYeller at June 21, 2007 12:49 AM

No, I think the Surfer did refer to Galactus more than a few times as a 'he'... And maybe it was just me reaching too far for a nod to the original Galactus, but I would've sworn I saw a pointy-headed helmet-and-shoulders shadow while the Surfer was addressing the cloud's core. If so, it was a very subtle nod.

I've noticed that a lot (at least in my circle of friends) of the old school Kirby and Lee FF fans enjoyed "FF2", while the newer and younger fans who dislike the early stuff tend to dislike the movie. I wouldn't say it's a hard and fast dividing line, but as far as sweeping generalizations go, I'm rather fond of the notion.

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 21, 2007 01:28 AM

Landry Walker -
Says bundles about your disposition.

This thread is obviously now filled with spoilers, according to your view of things, yet you are continuing to post here complaining instead of stopping your viewing of this thread.

Do you expect PAD to remove this thread or something?


BrakYeller -
but I would've sworn I saw a pointy-headed helmet-and-shoulders shadow while the Surfer was addressing the cloud's core. If so, it was a very subtle nod.

You wouldn't be the first person to make that claim: others have said it's there. Or all of us are just wanting to seeing something that isn't there.

I also thought that the the shadow of Galactus passing Saturn was pretty similar to what the comics version would give for a shadow. :)

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 21, 2007 01:51 AM

Craig J. Ries: "This thread is obviously now filled with spoilers, according to your view of things, yet you are continuing to post..."

And so what? Posting is not synonymous with reading. I'm not reading any post that does not directly relate to the conversation I engaged in. In fact, past my initial post I have done nothing but respond to statements specifically directed at me or the topic I chose to introduce.

Craig J. Ries: "...here complaining instead of stopping your viewing of this thread."

By all means, point out one instance of my "complaining". And note that the bit of mine you're quoting is a response to someone who labeled my question and subsequent response as "whining". What, I'm supposed to treat that person with respect? Why?

Craig J. Ries: "Do you expect PAD to remove this thread or something?"

No. Why are you trying to suggest I need motive beyond the one I have repeatedly clarified? I'll copy and past AGAIN, as the actual content of my posts seems to be largely ignored and instead labeled as "whining" or "complaining":

Me: "hence my question as to whether this qualifies as a spoiler".

Posted by: deafscribbler at June 21, 2007 03:12 AM

I enjoyed the movie although I agree with some of the assessments regarding the comedy... some of it was pretty dumb but some of it was "classic" FF. Generally, the movie was enjoyable although it had a few moments that left me scratching my head... such as the point when Ben runs up to a crane to uh, watch Johnny fight? And not help or do anything at all?

Silver Surfer got a very decent movie adaption-- nothing too terribly different from his comic book origins. The only "tinkering" was the board power connection and that was easy to buy (not like Sandman being the third gunman in front of the library etc. heh). Got Norrin Radd in. Got the deal and Shalla Bal (though not mentioned by name) in. Got the Power Cosmic in. Pretty good for being run through the Hollywood mill!

And yeah I gotta say, the sfx was done just so to cast glimpses of Kirby's big purple God. The shadows on the planet, and the fiery red/orange core of the vacuum cloud definitely were designed to evoke classic G. I was slightly disappointed we didn't get to see a big square pupil heh.

Frankie Raye too! Although one wonders when Johnny found out her first name.... hm.

Posted by: deafscribbler at June 21, 2007 03:13 AM

I enjoyed the movie although I agree with some of the assessments regarding the comedy... some of it was pretty dumb but some of it was "classic" FF. Generally, the movie was enjoyable although it had a few moments that left me scratching my head... such as the point when Ben runs up to a crane to uh, watch Johnny fight? And not help or do anything at all?

Silver Surfer got a very decent movie adaption-- nothing too terribly different from his comic book origins. The only "tinkering" was the board power connection and that was easy to buy (not like Sandman being the third gunman in front of the library etc. heh). Got Norrin Radd in. Got the deal and Shalla Bal (though not mentioned by name) in. Got the Power Cosmic in. Pretty good for being run through the Hollywood mill!

And yeah I gotta say, the sfx was done just so to cast glimpses of Kirby's big purple God. The shadows on the planet, and the fiery red/orange core of the vacuum cloud definitely were designed to evoke classic G. I was slightly disappointed we didn't get to see a big square pupil heh.

Frankie Raye too! Although one wonders when Johnny found out her first name.... hm.

Posted by: John OS at June 21, 2007 04:34 AM

Posted by deafscribbler at June 21, 2007 03:12 AM

"...Such as the point when Ben runs up to a crane to uh, watch Johnny fight? And not help or do anything at all?"

He bitch slapped Doom with the crane, which was the final blow in the fight. It was a little dark, but that's what happened.

I enjoyed this movie, and coming from someone who's rarely, if ever, enjoyed an FF comic I guess that means somebody did something right. Alba's best contribution to the film? "I'm on FIRE!!!"

I thought the actress who played Frankie Raye was oddly familiar but couldn't place until I remember we saw her perfect ass in season 1 of Entourage :D

Posted by: Peter David at June 21, 2007 06:44 AM

"Why couldn't we have at least gotten a Kirby-Galactus silhouette at some point during the climax, just to show that there was something IN the cloud?"

It may have been my imagination, but I'm reasonably sure I saw exactly that.

PAD

Posted by: Rick Keating at June 21, 2007 08:23 AM

You know, I had to look up Frankie Raye, because the name drew a complete blank with me (I don't think I ever knew there was a female Nova); but when my friends and I were watching the film, and we got to the part where Johnny called her "Frankie", I leaned over and whispered to one friend, "Frankie and Johnny?"

He got it and groaned.

However since this Frankie is apparently a reference to an established comics character, I'm going to guess that Frankie Raye and Johnny Storm are not meant to evoke the Frankie and Johnny of the folk song.

Rick

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 21, 2007 08:51 AM

Why couldn't we have at least gotten a Kirby-Galactus silhouette at some point during the climax, just to show that there was something IN the cloud?

I could swear I saw what looked like the shadow of Galactus' helmet on a planet as he passed. I'll try to find a link tot screen grab or something (just a matter of time before one shows up).

Did we see the same movie?!

I have a feeling Peter's making sure he's not burning any bridges.

There are enough folks on this very thread who liked the movie to show that one need not work for Marvel to have some love for it. And I don't think PAD has been shy in the past about pointing out problems with Marvel inspired properties.

Posted by: Dave Branch at June 21, 2007 09:13 AM

I thought the Sufer was cool with Annette

Posted by: Brian at June 21, 2007 09:47 AM

Count me as another one who liked it. I enjoyed the first one, but didn't love it, and I've had my expectations-lower-o-tron set to maximum for this summer, but I was pleasantly surprised, for the reasons that PAD cites. I especially liked the Stan Lee cameo, for the FF Annual #4 reference. I'd be happy to see a third -- I think they laid enough domestic groundwork in this film that the birth of Franklin is a logical plot for the next film. Obviously, that doesn't have to mean Annihilus, but there's no reason why it couldn't, either. He's just a big green stompy monster; you could apply any motivation to him and still have him work.

Geek confession: When Johnny spat out Frankie's first name, I immediately said, "Oh, she's Frankie RAYE!" loud enough for my friend to overhear, so I had to explain her whole deal over the ending credits.

Posted by: Goodman at June 21, 2007 10:14 AM

I enjoyed the film too, oddly enough, and I didn't care for the original at all. I agree that the casting of Sue and Doom were the biggest problems, but that was set with the first film, and there was little that could be done now. The film did seem very much in the spirit of Lee/Kirby. Wish I'd taken my fiancee though. I went with a comics fan instead, figuring I'd spare her what I expected to be an awful movie. But not only was it entertaining, it was also all about wedding planning, just as we're planning our own wedding.

Posted by: Bill K. at June 21, 2007 11:50 AM

I found the film incredibly superficial and the Silver Surfer the only character with any human depth to him. Sure there was nice action, but Dr. Doom still comes across as a melodramatic characature and not the ominous presence he's supposed to be. And the emotional drama and impact of the story wasn't one tenth that of the original comic book sequence (FF#48-50? The memory for such facts fades).

In fact, I'd be more inclined to watch the Silver Surfer spinoff film than I would a Fantastic Four 3.

Posted by: Keith at June 21, 2007 12:07 PM

Major *SPOILERS* in this post, so be warned.

I came out of the theater having enjoyed myself. Maybe not as much as PAD but still, I had an enjoyable time. Until I started thinking about it. And the more I thought about it, the less I like the movie. And I still liked it better than the first one. How sad is that?

In the comics, it's made very clear that the Surfer only led Galactus to uninhabited planets to feed on. In the movie, Sue accuses the Surfer of being responsible for millions (or billions) of deaths, referring to the planets that he's led Galactus to in the past. The Surfer never denies this accusation. So, accepting the ridiculous notion that a being such as Galactus would bestow on his herald enough power to destroy itself, why didn't the Surfer destroy Galactus long before now? By having the power to do so and still lead Galactus to inhabited planets to feed on, makes the Surfer a villain on a galactic scale. Not brave, not self-sacrificing, not noble like his comic book counterpart. A villain worse than Dr. Doom. And I think this is a travesty. Which is a real shame because they got everything else about him so very right.

Also, this is supposed to be a Fantastic Four movie, and where the hell were the FF during the big, climactic battle scene with Galactus? Sitting on the ground with all us "normal folk." You don't have your heroes just sitting around during the big final battle. That's just bad filmmaking in my opinion. And yes, you might argue that there were story reasons why they were down there, but if that's the case, then this should have been fixed at the script stage.

I won't even start with Doom and ridiculous necessity for "face time" for the actors. I'm just pretending that it wasn't Doom at all but one of his Doombots.

Oh, and someone asked what the giant holes were that the Surfer was making. Besides the silly "access points" they were intended for in the movie (like a being as powerful as Galactus couldn't drill his own holes), they can serve a higher purpose if they lead into FF3: Rise of the Mole Man. After all, the Surfe just dug giant holes into the Mole Man's domain.

Posted by: LatterDayKnight at June 21, 2007 01:01 PM

I'm with the majority here. I did enjoy it.

I don't think Galatus was a cloud instead of a man for budget reasons, I just don't think that there was anyway they could've translated the classic view to the silver screen. Not that a cloud would have worked in the comics, but the classic view is kinda funny looking when you think about it.

I was about to agree with those who see little possible strong villians for a third movie until it clicked: NAMOR

Posted by: George Haberberger at June 21, 2007 01:12 PM

In the comics, it's made very clear that the Surfer only led Galactus to uninhabited planets to feed on.

I'm at work so I don't have my FF issues at hand, but that's not how I remember it at all. If that were the case in the comics, the Surfer never would have come to Earth in the first place and the Watcher wouldn't have tried to hide the Earth with all those boulders and the sky full of fire. I don't remember the Surfer making any distinction between planets with life and those without life during his first appearance.

There may be some retroactive continuity that I am not aware of but in the early FF issues Alicia turned him around.

Posted by: Sean Martin at June 21, 2007 01:24 PM

I agree with Keith (and echo his *SPOILERS* warning for this paragraph) that the Surfer, as described in the movie, is far from the noble person who gave himself to servitude to save his own planet. Sure, he does that, but it isn't so much a self-sacrifice as a "spare my people and I'll help you kill billions of others instead." Especially onerous and vile behavior given that the Surfer apparently had the power to stop Galactus at any time.

I also thought it ended rather quickly. Not abruptly, but as the movie drew within 20-15 miutes of it's running time I was thinking to myself that they must be setting up for FF #3. I hadn't heard anything about this movie and a #3 being planned together like Pirates, but it sure didn't seem to me that they were going to be able to wrap things up so quickly. The Galactus threat was huge and had a bit of build up. How are they possibly going to get rid of it/him without a major smackdown or (since you don't beat Galactus with force) some careful plan? Certainly didn't expect the cosmic snap of the fingers that it ended up being.

Posted by: Uncajimmy at June 21, 2007 01:43 PM

At Least in ST:TMP we got a cloud and a payoff when the cloud dissolved by the last act... Tim Story should have looked at V'ger more closely... :)

Posted by: Brian at June 21, 2007 02:15 PM

I can see how the ending would have bugged anybody who doesn't know the original story from FF #48-50. In the movie, the heroes don't appear to do anything, except stand around and watch the Surfer rebel. In the comic, the heroes still don't really do anything except watch the Surfer rebel, and fail. Then you get a Deus Ex Uatu with added macguffin, and the story's over. In the movie, Johnny goes all Super-Skrull to beat Doom. In the comic, Johnny flies through a Kirby photo-montage to retrieve the macguffin. So I was satisfied with the way the movie worked out, but I can see how it might surprise some folks.

As for the Surfer's criminality, I assumed Norrin's case was just like in the comic -- he sacrificed himself to save his world, but after becoming Cosmic, he was too far removed from intelligent life to see them as anything worth saving. So yeah, Norrin's guilty of genocide thousands of times over, but he gets out of it either on the "I was brainwashed" clause, or the "Galactus is beyond good and evil" clause. In the comic, Alicia made him see humanity as worthwhile; in the movie, it was Sue, although I honestly expected it to be Alicia.

Posted by: Robert Fuller at June 21, 2007 02:21 PM

"I was about to agree with those who see little possible strong villians for a third movie until it clicked: NAMOR"

With a Sub-Mariner movie in the works, I don't think that will be possible. But you're right, it would be the next logical step (actually, it would have been the next logical step for FF 2).

I think either the Mole Man or a Negative Zone/Annihilus story would be their best bet for a third movie.

Posted by: Doug Atkinson at June 21, 2007 03:04 PM

There may be some retroactive continuity that I am not aware of but in the early FF issues Alicia turned him around.

In one of the issues of the '80s/'90s series (I forget if it was during Steve Engelhart's run or one of the later ones), there was a story where it occurred to the Surfer, "Hey, why don't I feel guilty for contributing to the deaths of billions of sapients?" He confronts Galactus with this, who tells him that he adjusted the Surfer's conscience so he could do his job. The Surfer demands that he undo it, and is promptly overwhelmed by massive, cripping guilt (represented by drowning in an ocean of blood), leading him to admit that Galactus may have had a point after all. So, whatever the original take on it may have been, the current state of continuity is that the Surfer did lead Galactus to inhabited worlds. (Wikipedia says that he originally led him just to uninhabited worlds but as they became harder to find Galactus made the conscience adjustment; I'm not sure if that's a detail from the story mentioned above, but it would fit.)

Posted by: Keith at June 21, 2007 04:08 PM

*Spoiler Spoiler* blah blah blah

I admit that I could be misremembering the Surfer's origin story re: leading Galactus to uninhabited worlds, or I could be mixing up various bits of retro history (I'll have to check later), but it doesn't alter that fact that in the comics the Surfer couldn't hurt Galactus and so had no choice but to honor his commitment to be his herald.

Sure, you could argue that even with the ability to destroy Galactus, the Surfer had to honor his pledge, that it would be a violation of his character to against his word, etc. To which I say bullocks. Word or no, Galactus was killing billions upon billions of people and stopping him would have been worth going back on your word.

Also, Brian said: "In the comic, the heroes still don't really do anything except watch the Surfer rebel, and fail. Then you get a Deus Ex Uatu with added macguffin, and the story's over."

Yes, that's the way the story ends in the comic and, as much as I love that trilogy, let's be honest, that's a pretty lame ending. Reed threatens Galactus with a magic button that will destroy everything, and not even a button that he invented. I just think that the filmmakers wrote themselves into the same corner that Stan Lee did back in the day and they should have benefited from Lee's example.

Posted by: Luke K. Walsh at June 21, 2007 04:56 PM

I was in the same boat as Landry Walker - I had no idea of Galactus' state in this movie until I read PAD's write-up here. (The most I recall hearing was that Galactus might not be in the film at all.) And so I totally understand asking if it was a spoiler, and agree with Landry Walker that, since it's revealed so early in the movie, it's not a big deal. I don't quite get the, frankly kind of asinine, backlash from a couple of people for the crime of merely asking a reasonable question...

Posted by: Peter J Poole at June 21, 2007 05:36 PM

Posted by Adam at June 20, 2007 05:59 PM
" But Doom, Silver Surfer, and Galactus were the only concepts that've come out of the Fantastic Four series popular enough to achieve iconic status. What's FF.3 going to offer that we're going to be thrilled about after Galactus? The Mole Man? Annihilus and the Negative Zone? Psycho-Man? The Frightful Four? "

The Inhumans.

Definitely a movies worth of story there.

"Galactus is a cloud." Yep, by me, that was a spoiler.

It happens, just tar and feather the guy and move on...

I'm pretty certain I saw the shadow helmet too (a phrase I hope never to use again) and I kind of like that you could happily imagine whatever you wanted to inside the cloud...

Not a great movie, but much better than what I half expected. I have been, um, spoiled by recent long movies though, and 93 minutes felt like pretty short change...

Cheers.


Posted by: Peter J Poole at June 21, 2007 05:37 PM

Posted by Adam at June 20, 2007 05:59 PM
" But Doom, Silver Surfer, and Galactus were the only concepts that've come out of the Fantastic Four series popular enough to achieve iconic status. What's FF.3 going to offer that we're going to be thrilled about after Galactus? The Mole Man? Annihilus and the Negative Zone? Psycho-Man? The Frightful Four? "

The Inhumans.

Definitely a movies worth of story there.

"Galactus is a cloud." Yep, by me, that was a spoiler.

It happens, just tar and feather the guy and move on...

I'm pretty certain I saw the shadow helmet too (a phrase I hope never to use again) and I kind of like that you could happily imagine whatever you wanted to inside the cloud...

Not a great movie, but much better than what I half expected. I have been, um, spoiled by recent long movies though, and 93 minutes felt like pretty short change...

Cheers.


Posted by: David Hunt at June 21, 2007 05:43 PM

If you're looking for great villian to use for FF 3, how about the Skrulls? Shapeshifting aliens could be an awesome foe to use.

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 21, 2007 05:48 PM

In the comics, it's made very clear that the Surfer only led Galactus to uninhabited planets to feed on.

As others have pointed out, that's nottrue of his first appearence. He led galactus quite willingly to Earth.

I think it was later, when they did his origin, that the whole "skipping planets full of life" bit came about.

I think it may also have been established that fertile worlds were more satisfying to his hunger than dead ones. You know, we do have a few big planets in our own solar system that he could have taken with little to no effect on us; I like Saturn lots but I could adjust to life without it. But the Big Purple Goof kept coming back for the third rock around the sun and I guess there must've been a reason.

Mr Poole mentions the Inhumans--at the showing I was at two comepletely unrealated groups of comics fans mentioned the Inhumans as their hoped for third movie...it has potential. The vast majority of filmgoers have never heard of ANY of our favorite characters so there is no risk in using even the really obscure ones like Stilt-Man. Except that the idea sucks.

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 21, 2007 06:01 PM

I don't quite get the, frankly kind of asinine, backlash from a couple of people for the crime of merely asking a reasonable question...

It was perhaps reasonable the first time around. PAD probably shouldn't have included spoilers on the main page of his site, instead leaving them to the thread itself as he usually does.

But when it's questioned over and over, and when he's obviously continuing to read the thread, regardless of the threat of spoilers (because, you know, you do have to read the posts to respond to them), it becomes laughable.

I have a pretty simple policy with this site: if it's discussing something I haven't seen or read, even if there may not be spoilers, I don't take the risk and read the thread.

If Landry didn't like the fact that Galactus was revealed to him, then it certainly didn't help for him to open the thread.

Posted by: Scavenger at June 21, 2007 06:22 PM

Chalk me up as another who liked the movie.

I agree, the ending was a bit "Uhmm...does that make sense?" but really, what else could they do..the Watcher/ultimate Nulifier would have been way too confusing for the movie.

I agree with PAD that the actors were dead on. Grufford, who I've always liked, was just what Reed should be, (and the Captain of the football team speech just rocked). And I question any male's y-chromosome who complains about Jessica Alba.

As for what could they do in #3...Namor sounds like a good choice...if nothing else Wet Jessica Alba = win!:D

Posted by: Scavenger at June 21, 2007 06:24 PM

Oh someone asked about the holes the Surfer left (wow..twice in a year the Thames gets drained!)

It looked like the Galactus' tendrils plugged into the holes, so I imagine it's how he eats planets.

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 21, 2007 06:27 PM

Craig J. Ries: "But when it's questioned over and over"

Where exactly have I done this? I questioned it ONCE and only ONCE. Past that point, I have primarily responded to those like yourself, who seem to have ignored the actual text of my contributions in favor of some imagined reality.

Here's my relevant response to you. Feel free to take the time to digest it: "past my initial post I have done nothing but respond to statements specifically directed at me or the topic I chose to introduce."

What's particularly amusing about your specious suggestion that I am flogging some form of dying horse here, is that in my second post, I conceded that the spoiler nature of this reveal was mitigated by the explanation that the information in question is shown within the first few minutes of the movie. Let me reiterate this for you as you seem to be having a particularly difficult time grasping this while erroneously painting my actions as "laughable". I-CONCEDED-THE-POINT. Many, many posts past now. So people like you dragging this topic on while simultaneously suggesting that I am the one to do so is hilarious.

Craig J. Ries: "If Landry didn't like the fact that Galactus was revealed to him, then it certainly didn't help for him to open the thread."

I already covered this: "I'm not reading any post that does not directly relate to the conversation I engaged in." I never complained about the content of the thread nor have I encountered any forbidden knowledge within the posts. I am capable of selected reading, after all. It's a pretty basic skill.

Craig J. Ries: "(because, you know, you do have to read the posts to respond to them)"

One does not have to read the entirety of a post to comprehend the subject. Perhaps you are limited in this capacity, but do not make the mistake that everyone else shares your lack of ability.

Posted by: Peter David at June 21, 2007 06:46 PM

"In the comics, it's made very clear that the Surfer only led Galactus to uninhabited planets to feed on."

If I'm recalling correctly, that was only belatedly. In his introduction, the Surfer didn't discriminate. It was only when he had his own book that they retconned in the notion that he tried to lead Galactus only to uninhabited worlds...probably precisely TO avoid the hero having billions of deaths on his soul. Except that never made tons of sense to me: I got the impression that Galactus required worlds capable of supporting life in order to survive. On that basis, I've no problem going with the original concept.

"Also, this is supposed to be a Fantastic Four movie, and where the hell were the FF during the big, climactic battle scene with Galactus? Sitting on the ground with all us "normal folk.""

What would you have preferred? The Cosmic Nullifier? I mean, my respect for Stan is second to none, but if that story was first seeing print now and Reed, with the aid of the Watcher, pulled the Cosmic Nullifier out of his ass, readers would pillory the story as producing a massive deus ex machina to resolve it.

PAD

Posted by: Shortdawg at June 21, 2007 07:55 PM

I agree (almost)wholeheartedly with PAD. With the exception of Doom, who still sucks, everything in this flick was much closer to the comic's spirit than FF1. And the handling of Surfer/Galactus was fairly inspired. It would be an overstatement to say that I eagerly crave an FF3 (Inhumans, anyone?), but I certainly no longer cringe at the very thought of it.

Oh, and here's an idea for anyone who doesn't want their moviegoing experience ruined by SPOILERS (gawd, how I hate that word!)--see the bloody flick first BEFORE you start reading threads about it...

Posted by: Nytwyng at June 21, 2007 08:32 PM

And I question any male's y-chromosome who complains about Jessica Alba.

Feel free to question mine, then.

I just don't "get" the big deal about her. And, every time I start to even remotely understand the appeal, it's just a fleeting moment, and then it's gone.

Sure...she's cute, I guess. But I tend to agree with a comment made by a local talk radio host a few years ago: People only think she's "hot" because she's famous. If she were working at the local food court, she wouldn't be considered as "hot" as she is...she'd just be that cute chick working in the food court.

Posted by: hysan at June 21, 2007 09:21 PM

I liked it more than I thought I would, but I liked the first one, even though it was big dopey, slobbery dog of a movie.

But yeah, this movie felt like an FF movie....them hugging each other at the end was a nice touch and completely in character.

I wished we could've seen a "real" Galactus, and I hate McMahon as Dr. Doom....but overall, I was surprised at how much they threw into a little under 90 minutes.

I would LOVE to see the Inhumans in the next one.

Posted by: Gary at June 21, 2007 09:31 PM

SURPRISINGLY good sequel Nuff Said

Posted by: Gary at June 21, 2007 09:31 PM

SURPRISINGLY good sequel Nuff Said

Posted by: Gary at June 21, 2007 09:45 PM

sorry about the double post still a good film though

Posted by: Mark Reed at June 22, 2007 12:37 AM

However since this Frankie is apparently a reference to an established comics character, I'm going to guess that Frankie Raye and Johnny Storm are not meant to evoke the Frankie and Johnny of the folk song.

Bad guess. You were right about the folk song connection, just not about the timing; John Byrne had the folk song in mind when he created the character of Frankie Raye to be a love interest for Johnny Storm in the comics. :)

Once I realized who she was (which I, like others, didn't do until Johnny called her by her first name), it added a frisson of expectation - was she going to save the Earth by doing the herald deal as Norrin had done for his world and as she did in the comics? Of course, in the comics she got to be a Human Torchette for a while first...

Posted by: ArcLight at June 22, 2007 01:47 AM

Well...I'm not a FF comic fan. I think in whole collection I have maybe two issues of the book. What I know of them is what I've seen when they've had a few panels in Spidey titles and such.

That said, I thought the first one was okay and I enjoyed this one, too. Sure, it had flaws (still would love to see the "real" Dr. Doom on screen someday) but it was a nice way to kill an hour and a half - another thing I liked about it after all the overblown 2 to 2 1/2 hour movies lately. Never did get over how freaky Alba looked with the bad wig and blue contacts, tho...

Posted by: John OS at June 22, 2007 03:45 AM

For all those complaining about the Surfer being able to destroy Galactus, and him not doing so before now making him a villain. This was probably in the interest of self-preservation. He knew going up against Galactus would probably kill him and if you're dead, you can't someday go back and snuggle with your honey.

Posted by: Evan at June 22, 2007 05:36 AM

Either the Inhumans or the Skrulls would make for a great third movie, but each group has its problems. Inhuman politics are Shakespearean, and couldn't be properly conveyed in one movie unless there was tons and tons of exposition. Then there are the Inhumans themselves. We would hopefully get Doug Jones as Black Bolt (I am very hard pressed to think of another actor who could do anywhere near as well with a non-verbal role) and most of the others are easy enough, but our Medusa will have to be an utter badass to survive a power that will look silly on the big screen. Medusalith Amaquelin Boltagon is badassery incarnate, and if the Inhumans are given the screen treatment then I want the average moviegoer coming out respecting her. Maximus is problematic; the trick is to find an actor who can convey his utter insanity whilst not taking him completely over-the-top in all the wrong ways. Restraint is very important with him.

The big problem with the Skrulls is that unless you go the Super-Skrull route, they lend themselves to a "small" movie. I have no problem with "small" movies, but how many comic book movies are "small"? Spider-Man 3 was intended to be "small," and look at how that turned out. The Skrulls are shapeshifters whose bodily secretions can result in the infected taking on Skrull traits. Greatness can result from this, but I don't see any Hollywood execs using this for a superhero movie. That leaves the Super-Skrull route, and as cool as Kl'rt is, he doesn't top the Surfer in terms of power. Now, the moviemakers could instead drag the FF into the Kree/Skrull War. The FF couldn't help but look good in that situation, and if the filmmakers were kind enough then the setup would be present for the Avengers to get dragged into the mess sometime down the line.

Posted by: Peter David at June 22, 2007 06:43 AM

I think the Inhumans would be cool. I also wouldn't mind seeing exploration of the Negative Zone. An interdimensional expedition would cover new ground.

PAD

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 22, 2007 09:51 AM

Medusa will have to be an utter badass to survive a power that will look silly on the big screen.

I don't know...CGI hair could look pretty effective.

The problem is that an Inhumans movie would really need a sense of grandeur-you are right on the money with your "Shakespearean" description--and while Tim Story is showing improvement, I don't think he is there yet.

Imagine if they could get Brad Bird to do an actual Fantastic 4 film!

Posted by: Gabh at June 22, 2007 11:02 AM

Third movie; omnipotent Franklin Richards. Though the story I'm thinking of might have paralleled X-Men 3: We Should Have Waited For Brian Singer a bit too closely.

Posted by: Keith at June 22, 2007 12:04 PM

Ok, ok, already. I cop to the fact that I misremembered the Surfer’s origin re: uninhabited worlds. But it was added retroactively, so it is part of Surfer history/canon. It is part of his character that he only led Galactus to uninhabited worlds until Galactus removed his guilt or inhibitions or whatever. But, and this is a huge “but” in my opinion, the fact that the Surfer, in the movie, had the power all along to destroy Galactus and chose instead to commit genocide over and over again, lessens the character in general and turns him into a willing villain in particular. The fact that he eventually chose to fight/die defying Galactus to save Earth may absolve him from our perspective, it was our butts he saved after all, but doesn’t absolve him on the galactic scale.

John Os said: For all those complaining about the Surfer being able to destroy Galactus, and him not doing so before now making him a villain. This was probably in the interest of self-preservation.”

I will grant that self-preservation is a powerful factor when deciding who will live and die, but it isn’t a justification for genocide. Even once.

Peter asked: “What would you have preferred? The Cosmic Nullifer? I mean, my respect for Stan is second to none, but if that story was first seeing print now and Reed, with the aid of the Watcher, pulled the Cosmic Nullifier out of his ass, readers would pillory the story as producing a massive deus ex machina to resolve it.”

Of course I wouldn’t want The Ultimate Nullifer and that’s exactly my point. Isn’t using the Surfer to destroy Galactus lickity-split at the end of the movie just a different deus ex machina? I just don’t think it’s that much better. I would think, with multiple months to come up with a story (as opposed to, at best, a week back when Stan wrote the original) that the filmmakers could have come up with something better. And I’m right with you in my respect for Stan Lee.

It’s also been suggested that the Inhumans would be neat to see in the next movie. I agree, but if they are done correctly – and the Surfer in this film suggests that the filmmakers could do it – they’d come across as waaaaaay cooler than the FF, so I wouldn’t expect to see them. The Negative Zone would be great, but I’m still holding out for Mole Man. I’d love to see a bunch of Kirbyesque monsters crawling over New York. And it would give Ben something to hit.

Posted by: Alex B. at June 22, 2007 12:12 PM

I actually rather enjoyed this one, though I didn't care much for the first. It was still pretty cheesy, but the Surfer was so cool that he canceled out a lot of it. I just really want to see a Silver Surfer movie now.

For FF 3 I'd love to see Annihilus and the Negative Zone. He's a powerful villain and I think there is great potential for some stunning visuals there.

Posted by: WarrenSJonesIII at June 22, 2007 12:12 PM

I absolutely loved the film. 5 out of 5 stars.

It was nice to see Michael Chiklis in a role so far removed from Vic Mackey (The Shield). All of the actors played their roles to perfection. I can't wait to get this movie on DVD. Unfortunately FFROTSS will not bring Spiderman 3 dollars home but it will make a respectible kitty for the studio.

Warren S. Jones III

Posted by: Alex B. at June 22, 2007 12:13 PM

I actually rather enjoyed this one, though I didn't care much for the first. It was still pretty cheesy, but the Surfer was so cool that he canceled out a lot of it. I just really want to see a Silver Surfer movie now. And I thought the cloud was fine. As I recall from the Stormbreaker mini a couple years ago, Galactus frequently appears different to different cultures anyway, so I think a massive storm front fits earth pretty well.

For FF 3 I'd love to see Annihilus and the Negative Zone. He's a powerful villain and I think there is great potential for some stunning visuals there.

Posted by: Jason Powell at June 22, 2007 12:19 PM

FF2 did not feel or read like a Lee/Kirby FF comic to me.

Main problem #1: Dialogue. In the comics, Stan Lee never produced realistic dialogue. And true, sometimes it was corny. But it was heightened, and had a wonderful sense of melodrama and grandeur.

In the film, we get dialogue like this:

Sue: “I’m on fire!”
Reed: “Sue, you’re on fire!”
Sue: “Ya THINK?”

That’s horrible.

The first movie didn’t have very grand dialogue, but it was serviceable action-movie dialogue (and oddly enough, even legendary curmudgeon John Byrne – considered a pretty major FF writer, praised some of the dialogue spoken in the previews of FF 1).

This movie has just one painful line of dialogue after another. When Reed gives his speech about the power of nerds (including the line “I’m engaged to the hottest girl on the planet!”), I think you can safely call a time of death on the film.

Main problem #2: Plot. I don’t agree that it held together at all. There were developments that were unclear. (I get that the Surfer flying by Latveria released a wave of energy that woke up Doctor Doom – that’s sloppy, but I can buy it. But why does a blast that the Surfer shoots specifically meant to HURT Doom instead heal all his scars?)

Even worse: All throughout the movie, Johnny’s condition was explicit – if he touches another member of the FF, he loses his flames but gains the other member’s power. Until the end, when touching all three members allows him not only to get all three powers but also to KEEP his flame. The writers broke their own rules just so Johnny could become the Super-Skrull at the end. That was idiotic.

And honestly – maybe the Ultimate Nullifier is a deus ex machina, but the ending in the film is hardly better. In the first movie, for all its flaws, at least they defeated Doom by combining all four of their powers and acting as a team. In the sequel, Johnny defeats Doom solo, and Surfer defeats Galactus solo. That’s weak.

And as has been argued up-thread, yes, it seems clear that the reason the Surfer never opposed Galactus before now is because he knew that he could only beat Galactus by sacrificing his own life. Fair enough, I guess ... until the Surfer’s eyes open at the end of the film. His survival undercuts the whole thing – if he could be Galactus without dying, he should’ve done it ages before he ever even came to Earth. It’s just more sloppy storytelling.

Main problem #3: Characterization. Sue is just too much of a shrew about the wedding. She gets all pissed off because the electronics blackout ruins their wedding, and blames it on their being the Fantastic Four. Except that it had nothing to do with them being the Fantastic Four. The Silver Surfer just happened to fly by during the wedding (which is a contrived coincidence anyhow). Anybody getting married on that day, at that time, would’ve had their day ruined. But Sue uses it as an excuse to bitch at Reed. Dumb.

And Reed – well, I hate to come back to that Nerd Power speech, but c’mon. Reed should be above that kind of petty sh*t. Having the general be a jerk who questions Reed’s masculinity is fine (cliche, but forgivable), but Reed should have ignored it and let his heroic actions be his response.

Oh well. There were still bits I liked. The sequence with the collapsing Ferris wheel was a neat use of Reed’s power (and I also liked the bit with Sue being forced to back off the pier for leverage but using her forcefield to not go toppling into the water – nice touch). Chris Evans’ facial expression when he watched Ben and Alicia kiss was, to me, the funniest moment of the whole movie. The Silver Surfer looked and sounded cool throughout – he was the element of the film that seemed truest to Lee/Kirby to me. Doom on the surfboard in aerial combat with the Four in the Fantasticar was pretty well done (although also silly – how did the other members of the team instantly know how to fly their sections when it separated into three parts?).

Still, by the end of the film, the plot had more holes punched in it than the Earth. (See what I did there?) The first film is definitely better.

Posted by: Keith at June 22, 2007 12:51 PM

I agree with Jason Powell on just about every single point. My only contradiction is extremely minor: "The Silver Surfer just happened to fly by during the wedding (which is a contrived coincidence anyhow)." I thought the Surfer had come specifically to New York (and the Baxter Building) because he sensed he was being tracked. Which is why he destroyed Reed's machine. Doesn't excuse anything else, though.

Posted by: Charlie Griefer at June 22, 2007 01:45 PM

regarding spoilers...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20051205l.jpg

that is all :)

Posted by: Charlie Griefer at June 22, 2007 01:46 PM

wait wait wait... that was not all.

this too... :)

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x12/goatburgler/spoilers.gif

Posted by: Robert Fuller at June 22, 2007 02:19 PM

"The problem is that an Inhumans movie would really need a sense of grandeur-you are right on the money with your "Shakespearean" description--and while Tim Story is showing improvement, I don't think he is there yet.

Imagine if they could get Brad Bird to do an actual Fantastic 4 film!"

How do you go from "Shakespearean" to Brad Bird?

And I agree with Jason on pretty much every point. He covered a lot of my complaints, though not all of them (he didn't mention the terrible acting from everyone except Chris Evans, for instance). But I don't even think the Surfer was that cool. The combination of Laurence Fishburne's voice and the poorly animated mouth movements and facial expressions just made him seem cheesy to me. He felt more like a video game character than a fully fleshed live-action movie character.

I don't want to be THAT guy, but really, I can't help but think that people's standards have really fallen if they think FF 2 is in any way a quality production.

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 22, 2007 02:36 PM

Perhaps you are limited in this capacity, but do not make the mistake that everyone else shares your lack of ability.

Perhaps you should stop reading about how Doom got healed, giant holes were made in earth, etc etc, before you get even more upset about minor things in the film that were spoiled for you, along with your pitiful attempts to insult me.

But if you can read the above without being spoiled in any way shape or form, since you supposedly have that ability, turn yourself into a doctor as a medical miracle.

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 22, 2007 02:46 PM

Craig J. Ries: "But if you can read the above without being spoiled in any way shape or form, since you supposedly have that ability, turn yourself into a doctor as a medical miracle."

No problem. I got as far as "perhaps you should stop reading about how Doom..."

It's easy enough to stop reading. I'm sorry you can't comprehend this. I'm sorry this ability is beyond you.

And by the way, I'm waiting for you to address this blatant lie:

Craig J. Ries: "But when it's questioned over and over"

Where exactly have I done this, Craig? You keep making these asinine and immature posts without contributing even a small amount of substance to support your falsehood. Go ahead and continue with this desperate ploy. It seems to suit you.

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 22, 2007 03:02 PM

It's easy enough to stop reading.

Then, by that wonderful logic, it's easy enough to see that you're not reading my posts at all. You're not entirely sure what I've said, because you aren't reading the entire post.

Do you realize how silly you sound? You basically say that while words A, B, C, and D are there, you can pick out A and C.

Yes, you've got quite the selective reading going on. As great as it was, it still lead you to spoilers in the first place. How ironic.

Where exactly have I done this, Craig?

By virtue of the fact that you continue to post here, it appears to me that you're repeating yourself over and over regarding the use of spoilers in PAD's original post and your complaint about it.

Otherwise, why continue half-reading this thread?

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 22, 2007 03:14 PM

I get that the Surfer flying by Latveria released a wave of energy that woke up Doctor Doom – that’s sloppy, but I can buy it. But why does a blast that the Surfer shoots specifically meant to HURT Doom instead heal all his scars?

For the same reason just touching Johnny altered his powers--Doom is also a cosmic ray empowered being in these movies, so his contact with the surfer can have any effect the writers want. He's like red kryptonite.

How do you go from "Shakespearean" to Brad Bird?

Iron Giant! The Incredibles! Assuming he can make the leap from animated to live action he'd make an AWESOME director of FF3.

Posted by: Sean Martin at June 22, 2007 03:24 PM

John OS: For all those complaining about the Surfer being able to destroy Galactus, and him not doing so before now making him a villain. This was probably in the interest of self-preservation. He knew going up against Galactus would probably kill him and if you're dead, you can't someday go back and snuggle with your honey.

Self-sacrifice is the very nature of being a hero.
To say instead that you don't want to die is understandable. It won't make you a hero, but it doesn't necessarily make you a villain.

But to participate willingly in the murder of billions, to end all of those people's lives and dreams just so you can have your personal happy ending does make you a villain.

Even moreso, IMHO, if it's "going up against Galactus would probably kill him" vs the certain deaths of untold billions.

Posted by: Sean Martin at June 22, 2007 03:29 PM

Jason Powell: In the first movie, for all its flaws, at least they defeated Doom by combining all four of their powers and acting as a team. In the sequel, Johnny defeats Doom solo, and Surfer defeats Galactus solo. That’s weak.

I watched the first movie again the night before going to #2 and, for all of it's flaws at least is was the combined efforts of the FF acting as a team that stopped Doom. For FF 2 that was the biggest disappointment for me.

Posted by: Sean Martin at June 22, 2007 03:37 PM

Bill Mulligan: Imagine if they could get Brad Bird to do an actual Fantastic 4 film!

Heh. I thought he'd already done one.

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 22, 2007 03:41 PM

Craig J. Ries: "Then, by that wonderful logic, it's easy enough to see that you're not reading my posts at all. You're not entirely sure what I've said, because you aren't reading the entire post."

With the exception of one post of yours, I read and addressed all your relevant contributions to our dialog in their entirety. You of course, never even responded to the first post I addressed to you. So cut the hypocrisy and don't attempt to misdirect when I have clearly taken the time, repeatedly, to address your statements.

Craig J. Ries: "Do you realize how silly you sound? You basically say that while words A, B, C, and D are there, you can pick out A and C.

I'm sorry this practice is so difficult for you to comprehend. But that's your problem. Not mine. Now if you'll stop assuming you have the ability to tell me what I am or am not capable of, we can move on.

Craig J. Ries: "Yes, you've got quite the selective reading going on. As great as it was, it still lead you to spoilers in the first place. How ironic.

Are you really that incapable of extrapolating the obvious? I already addressed the fact that this blog is typically spoiler free. I was not attempting to read so selectively at that time. Mind you, I'm not now, or have I ever been, complaining about any spoiler. I asked a question, received and accepted an answer. Since that point, teh dialog has been perpetuated by folks like you who want to take snide pot-shots.

Craig J. Ries: "By virtue of the fact that you continue to post here, it appears to me that you're repeating yourself over and over regarding the use of spoilers in PAD's original post and your complaint about it."

Bullshit. All I've done is respond, and I've conceded the original point on numerous occasions now. I'm not complaining about anything being spoiled for me Craig, and I challenge you to substantiate your lies with fact. The previous messages are quite available for your perusal. Prove your repeated lies. Go ahead.

Craig J. Ries: "Otherwise, why continue half-reading this thread?"

I don't know Craig, something about people saying I'm "whining", labeling my questions as "complaints", lying about my actions and based on said lies, describing them as "laughable", ignoring my responses while talking about me with third parties...

Gee Craig, what possible motivation do I have?

Attack the argument. Not the person behind it. But when you come out with personal insults, don't expect me to respond to you with civility.

Posted by: NoelCT at June 22, 2007 03:41 PM

Someone above mentioned Mole Man for part three. He was fun but, honestly, I don't think his story could top the Silver Surfer.

What would be nice is to use him for a 10 minute opening sequence where his monsters are swarming the city and the F4 are running around to fight them. Heck, you could even have Fin Fang Foom as his main monster, for no reason other than to put good ol' FFF up on the screen.

And then I'd go with the Inhmans. Negative zone would be great, too, but I'd like to see the romance of Johnny and Crystal. Just to give him something better to do than look hot and crack wise.

And Sue could be pregnant, which would set up Franklin for part four. Then, you could do the Negative Zone here (Annihilus!) with Franklin somehow using his genius to save the day.

Tim Story is the biggest problem of those two. He's a competent director, but his focus is more on humor and action than drama and epic scale. I'll continue to check out his films, but I hope they hand the reigns over to someone else for the next entry.

Posted by: jem at June 22, 2007 03:50 PM

I was disappointed that the threat from Doom was apparently bigger than the big G. I mean, the Surfer took care of Galactus in what, a minute? And why didn't he just do that after agreeing to be the Herald? Was Sue more important than the woman he (supposedly) loved on his planet (which was not named)?

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 22, 2007 04:07 PM

Now if you'll stop assuming you have the ability to tell me what I am or am not capable of, we can move on.

Are you really that incapable of extrapolating the obvious?

and this beauty

But when you come out with personal insults, don't expect me to respond to you with civility.

Pot meet kettle.

I'm done with you.

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 22, 2007 04:13 PM

Man, you're really grasping at straws here Craig. You quote me pointing out that if you attack me, I'll respond in kind. But you don't seem to actually grasp what this means. You label my words as "complaints", you LIE about my actions, you describe said falsehoods as "amusing", THEN I respond to you in your own tone and you get huffy and attempt to declare hypocrisy? Hysterical. Go ahead and take your ball home with you. You can't substantiate your lies anyway, this is the only real out you have. The false pretense that you have some form of high ground.

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 22, 2007 04:13 PM

I was disappointed that the threat from Doom was apparently bigger than the big G.

This didn't really occur to me at the time, but now that I think about it, this is a bit of a problem, isn't it?

Somebody earlier (or perhaps elsewhere) mentioned how it was a bit of a Mary Sue: Surfer does all the heavy lifting in defeating Galactus, and it's not the spectacular battle you'd expect... just like the first movie, where the big fight really wasn't a big fight, more like an abbreviated one.

In the end, I think I wish they'd left Doom out of this one and perhaps used the third movie to bring back Doom and his stealing the Surfer's board storyline.


And does anybody know when they'll start the script for FF3? :)

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 22, 2007 04:20 PM

You label my words as "complaints",

Yes, and you obviously had a problem with that. Good for you. Last I checked, we're both welcome to our opinions.

you LIE about my actions, you describe said falsehoods as "amusing",

You make assumptions about what I can or cannot understand and you insult my intelligence.

The false pretense that you have some form of high ground.

I've never claiming any sort of high ground here, yet you're more than willing to assume that I'm trying to claim it. Go figure.

Are there any other falsehoods you'd like to attribute to me while you're on such a roll?

Posted by: Landry Walker at June 22, 2007 04:53 PM

Craig J. Ries: "You make assumptions about what I can or cannot understand and you insult my intelligence."

Seriously, why shouldn't I insult you? I tried a civil exchange with you and you never responded directly to me, but instead chose to ignore my every word and reiterate your opinions to a third party while describing my actions as you falsely presented them as "laughable". You've repeatedly acted the part of an ass through both unwarranted insult and a completely false portrayal of my actions. Subsequently, I'm treating you with the measure of respect your actions show you worthy of.

And this isn't exactly transpiring in a vacuum, is it? My first response to you, back when I was bothering to respond with civility, I explained to you quite clearly that I would not treat someone who insults me with respect. I spelled it out for you again just a few posts ago. But in both instances you seem to have ignored it.

Craig J. Ries: "Yes, and you obviously had a problem with that. Good for you. Last I checked, we're both welcome to our opinions."

Your opinion cannot change reality, or is the concept of singular versus plural another of your stumbling blocks? You allege that these complaints were stated "over and over", that I "continued" to post here "complaining". You state that my "compliant" might have been reasonable the first time around... But where was the second? Or the third? You claim that it appears to you that I've been repeating myself? Where Craig? Where exactly did this happen? Yet AGAIN, Substantiate your lie.

Craig J. Ries: "Are there any other falsehoods you'd like to attribute to me while you're on such a roll?"

Hardly need to Craig. You've done a wonderful job of it yourself.

Craig J. Ries: "I'm done with you."

Sure you are.

Posted by: Jason Powell at June 22, 2007 05:38 PM

"I agree with Jason Powell on just about every single point. My only contradiction is extremely minor: "The Silver Surfer just happened to fly by during the wedding (which is a contrived coincidence anyhow)." I thought the Surfer had come specifically to New York (and the Baxter Building) because he sensed he was being tracked. Which is why he destroyed Reed's machine. Doesn't excuse anything else, though."

Ah, Keith, thank you. I obviously missed that. Well, fair enough then.

The other plot gripe is still major, of course: How did the Torch keep his flame powers when he absorbed the others' at the very end, when *every other time in the entire movie*, he didn't???

Posted by: Sean Martin at June 22, 2007 08:34 PM

Jason Powell: How did the Torch keep his flame powers when he absorbed the others' at the very end, when every other time in the entire movie, he didn't???

Unfortunately, since they didn't make any explanation about that in the movie*, we'll have to make something up.

How about: In all previous switches of power Johnny touched just one person and then touched that same person again before touching someone else. Perhaps touching all three at once (taking without ever giving back?) made it work a little differently.

* Would have been nice if, when Johnny first swapped with Ben, Reed had said something about how incredibly dangerous it could be if Johnny touched more than one person at a time. Would have set up the possibility of his getting all four powers AND given the team's sharing of powers at the end a bit more heroic touch since they could be doing something considered risky. (Could also have echoed back to the "Super Nova: bad" bit from the first movie.)

Posted by: Sean Martin at June 22, 2007 08:41 PM

Thinking a bit more on it (wish the movie makers had) it could have been quite cool if Johnny continued to swap powers as all four of them took on Doom. (I really think it would have been better, instead of Johnny as the one man army, to see them taking Doom on as a team.)

Then swapping powers around, keeping Doom off balance. Like the problems they had in London except now they get the hang of it.

Posted by: The StarWolf at June 22, 2007 09:32 PM

Many of the comments are about how much better this one was than the first. If so, boy, am I ever glad I didn't waste money on the first FF film. This second one's definitely in the frustrating class of film where they get just enough right to make you annoyed at how much they got wrong, such as...

***SPOILERS***


- Doom. (Just the scene of the chopper with "von Doom" stenciled on it had us cringing, never mind all the rest of the horridly bad characterization.)
- Poor editing. From the initial planet exploding to the Surfer arriving on Earth seems like practically no time at all. They utterly failed to give a sense of days/weeks/months/more having passed. It is as though Galactus had a potato chip and wanted another. Hunh?
- The freezing effect from the Surfer's passing. Hunh? At his speeds, it should be heat from friction, not cold. And if his aura freezes things, why weren't the fishermen also frozen (remember, humans are mostly water)?
- Reed must have ftl tachnologies. How else can he know about those recently-ravaged worlds when light of the event would take several years to get
here?
- The military were STUPID. First they want Reed's help, then they want him to go away, then they want his help, then they insult him. Can they make up their teeny, tiny little minds? And that officer, supposedly proud of having studied their dossiers, yet dunb enough to think pointing a pistol at them will impress them?!?! And what's the U.S. military doing in a base in Ikursk, Russia?
- Yeah, the Surfer knew he was being tracked. So? Why should he care? He's the Surfer. It's not like humans can do anything to him.
-The "the board's his source of power"??? *sigh*
- Agreed, he could have killed G any time, so why not?
- Yes, horrible inconsistency about Johny suddenly being able to retain his power (bad plot device because he had to fly to catch Doom).
- And what's with "Victor" all the time? In the comics Reed SOMETIMES refered to him that way when in personal conversation. No one else did. It's always "Doom". Not in the film. Why?
- Agreed about the FF being bystanders to the climax. Bad, bad, bad. They should have called it the SILVER SURFER movie.
- Galactus as a cloud? How do you talk to a cloud, exactly? If there WAS something inside, why not show it?
- Johny wanting endorsement contracts? Uh, just the holographic technologies of Reed's would have him in the Fortune 500 club. What the heck do they need endorsement contracts for?
- The political correctness of Alicia was annoying, but I could live with it ... if the actress wasn't the LEAST convincing 'blind character' I've ever seen.
- Ben was often the least tempermental of the lot. At least twice, if not more, I expected him to walk up to the military, tie their toys into pretzels and grunt "C'mon, Stretcho, these bozos don't want us, we're outta here." But he didn't. It was Reed who stood up to them with that out-of-character geek speech. Feh.
- Since when did Sue apply eye liner with a trowel? There were times she seemed to be from the Tammy Baker school of cosmetics.
Lots more, but I've ranted too long as it is.

Yes, the Surfer and Ben were the two high points of the film. Not their fault the script didn't manage their characters as well as one might have hoped. Reed was mostly not bad. But that bit in the disco?! Too, as someone else pointed out, he rarely came across as a leader. *sigh* Back to the drawing board.

Posted by: Omar Karindu at June 22, 2007 09:37 PM

However since this Frankie is apparently a reference to an established comics character, I'm going to guess that Frankie Raye and Johnny Storm are not meant to evoke the Frankie and Johnny of the folk song.

Bad guess. You were right about the folk song connection, just not about the timing; John Byrne had the folk song in mind when he created the character of Frankie Raye to be a love interest for Johnny Storm in the comics. :)

Just in the interest of credit where due, Frankie Raye and her pyrophobia were introduced in Fantastic Four #164 by Roy Thomas and George Perez; and yes, Roy did make joking reference to the folksong on the first page on which she appears. (It was Johnyny's pick-up line.)

Byrne brought her back and developed her into a recurring character, but he didn't create or name her. Rather, he grafted onto her a modification of an idea he'd had for a never-published Giant-Size FF in which the Crystal of Counter-Earth turns up as what amounts to a female, uncontrollable Human Torch.

Posted by: Robert Fuller at June 22, 2007 10:06 PM

I don't think the Inhumans would really work for an FF movie. I think they would take over the story too much, even more so than the Silver Surfer. They belong in their own movie (not that that will ever happen).

And anyway, every Inhuman story I've ever read has bored me to tears (with the exception of Sean McKeever's brilliant series, which wasn't exactly a typical Inhumans story).

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 23, 2007 12:48 AM

The political correctness of Alicia was annoying, but I could live with it ... if the actress wasn't the LEAST convincing 'blind character' I've ever seen.

You mean blind people don't actually always look exactly 18 degrees off to one side when talking to someone?

Posted by: Jonathanos at June 24, 2007 11:32 AM

I haven't read through all of the comments but I saw some confusion over whether Galactus had consumed inhabited planets prior to Earth in the original Lee/Kirby story.

I don't have the originals but I do have a trade that collects FF #48-50 and I'm 99% sure that during the conversation between the Watcher and Galactus, Uatu says Galactus has never destroyed an inhabited planet before.

Posted by: Jocelyn at June 24, 2007 08:20 PM

Sue Storm played the a-typical, society bride-to-be. Our society has created this idea of the "perfect" wedding and many, many women have embraced this and will do anything and everything to have the "perfect" wedding. Even superheroes. That's why the wedding industry is such big business. I am new to FF but from long-time fans I understand that these characters have been developed outside of their superhero personas and have problems and ups and downs just like everyone else. So Sue Storm being "bridezilla-esque" seemed perfectly apt to me.

Posted by: JamesLynch at June 24, 2007 08:50 PM

Someone above suggested that it would've been cool (or at least good) to have the members of the FF switching powers for the final fight with UberDoom. Unfortunately, this wouldn't have worked 'cuz they're only used to their own powers. When Sue Storm got the Torch's powers, she didn't fly loops around the Baxter Building -- she flailed and fell. Likewise, when Johnny accidentally got Reed's powers, he (Johnny) didn't immediately stretch up to secure the ferris wheel -- he fell flat (literally) on his back. If separate attacks would've worked, everyone but Sue could have gone after him as a team. The combined powers bit worked because you mixed the stretching, flaming, and super-strength in one attack. (He *had* invisibility but apparently Johnny decided the element of surprise really wasn't that significant when it came to saving the world.)

BTW, this week's anime-style FANTASTIC FOUR show on Cartoon Network does have the FF switching powers as they (try to) battle Doom.

Posted by: John OS at June 25, 2007 08:31 AM

The StarWolf
"The military were STUPID. First they want Reed's help, then they want him to go away, then they want his help, then they insult him. Can they make up their teeny, tiny little minds? And that officer, supposedly proud of having studied their dossiers, yet dunb enough to think pointing a pistol at them will impress them?!?! And what's the U.S. military doing in a base in Ikursk, Russia?"

That bugged me a lot too. They seem to have jurisdiction everywhere! Halfway through the film I decided to think of them as SHIELD :D

I should've explained better in my earlier post about the Silver Surfers villainy-ess. I made the point about self-preservation, and rightly so, a couple of people responded by saying he's still a villain for leading Galactus to planets filled with people. Now that I think about it, I'm ok with that line of thinking. But that's not how it ends. After all, the film is call "Rise of the Silver Surfer". Why would it be called "Rise" if he'd been a hero all along? In my opinion the title refers to the fact that he's been living in moral ambiguity and nigh-villainy, only to realise that what he's doing is wrong (took him long enough) and become a hero, or at least redeeming himself of his past actions through self-sacrifice.
And that gives you the plot of the spin off right there: Redemption. Just imagine watching Angel in space and surfing.

Posted by: Timewalker at June 25, 2007 02:13 PM

Now that I think about it, I'm ok with that line of thinking. But that's not how it ends. After all, the film is call "Rise of the Silver Surfer". Why would it be called "Rise" if he'd been a hero all along? In my opinion the title refers to the fact that he's been living in moral ambiguity and nigh-villainy, only to realise that what he's doing is wrong (took him long enough) and become a hero, or at least redeeming himself of his past actions through self-sacrifice.
And that gives you the plot of the spin off right there: Redemption. Just imagine watching Angel in space and surfing.

That's exactly the way I viewed the film. He had to learn what it meant to be a hero from these people who saved him, when he was the harbinger of their destruction. He had to learn that life beyond his planet was worth saving. He had to rise up.

And the spin-off is already written - by J. Michael Straczynski! (hopefully they will get a better director.)

Posted by: Robert Fuller at June 25, 2007 03:26 PM

"That's exactly the way I viewed the film. He had to learn what it meant to be a hero from these people who saved him, when he was the harbinger of their destruction. He had to learn that life beyond his planet was worth saving. He had to rise up."

That's a bit of a stretch. I think they just needed a cool-sounding title with the words "Silver Surfer" in it, and "Rise of the Silver Surfer" sounded better than Fantastic Four and the Silver Surfer." It's basically their way of saying "The Coming of the Silver Surfer," but with fewer letters.

Of course, this is all pure speculation.

Posted by: The StarWolf at June 25, 2007 03:30 PM

John - But he'd already 'risen' when he gave up his life, his love, everything which had been dear to him to save his world. Was it really that huge a step up to actually risk his life to save other worlds from Galactus?

Also, unlike the comic, Galactus has not set up the barrier to exile the Surfer. What's to stop him from returning home and resuming his life since, as we saw in the film, his silver shell goes away when he's off his board?

Posted by: John OS at June 26, 2007 03:42 AM

Ah, but Starwolf, redemption is like a carousel. It's circular. You pay the quarter, you get on the horse. It goes up and down and around. Circular. Circle. With the music. The flow... all good things. You gotta harness in the good energy, block out the bad. Harness energy, block bad. Feel the flow. Work it.
But more seriously, good point. That initial sacrifice could certainly be what the "Rise" is referring to, though I don't think it was featured enough in the film to be the title. As far as I know, in this context rise can be used in the past or present tense.
So what I meant by my carousel rant is that he rose up (saving his world), descended (leading Galactus to innocent planets) and then reascended (stopping Galactus)

Also, I read a suggestion on a message board that the movie should've been called "Ride of the Silver Surfer". I think that's better, but we couldn't talk about that nearly as much :D

Posted by: Rick Keating at June 26, 2007 11:49 AM

John OS said, "Also, I read a suggestion on a message board that the movie should've been called "Ride of the Silver Surfer". I think that's better, but we couldn't talk about that nearly as much."

See my first post above for the reason why they didn't call it "Ride of the Silver Surfer."

The StarWolf said, "What's to stop him from returning home and resuming his life since, as we saw in the film, his silver shell goes away when he's off his board?"

First, his silver shell didn't go away, it just became a little less silvery. Second, without the board, how would he get home before everyone he's ever known has been dead for centuries? I haven't seen any indication that scientists in the Fantastic Four movie universe (including either Reed or Victor) have developed spacecraft capable of traveling faster than light or via some sort of subspace. That being the case, it'd be a long flight home.

Or perhaps you were saying he should use the board to get home, then discard it? Well, A), as I said above, he still has the shell; and B) we don't know that his action against Galactus hasn't left him marooned on Earth. Maybe Galactus did throw up a barrier as a last act before being destroyed (If it was destroyed and didn't beat a hasty but clandestine retreat); or maybe in taking out Galactus, the Surfer's board lost a great deal of power, and now can't go much faster than the fastest rocket we have. That'd effectively keep him from getting home in a reasonable amount of time.

And, of course, there's C). The world (and people) he knew may no longer be there. If he's been flying around at near light speeds, thousands of years of objective time could have passed since he left home. If he's been traveling through subspace or some such short cut, that's a different matter.

But any way you look at it, the Surfer can't just go home and resume his old life.

On another note, people have said the Surfer brought Galactus to populated planets. Other than Earth, how do we know those planets were populated? Are people assuming this because Reed said, "eight days later, a planet dies.", as if this means it had a population? I don't recall he or anyone else saying something to the effect that the entire population of Donaldduckus VII was wiped out. In fact, until the Surfer's arrival, I don't recall any indication that people on Earth in the Fantastic Four movies know with any certainty that life exists outside of Earth.

Rick

P.S. Here's a bit of irony to consider. What if, moments after destroying Alderaan, the Death Star runs afoul of Galactus? That'd be just desserts.


Posted by: John OS at June 26, 2007 12:00 PM

Rick Keating said "See my first post above for the reason why they didn't call it "Ride of the Silver Surfer.""

Oh yeah, that was here.


I'm dumb. :)

Posted by: The StarWolf at June 26, 2007 01:10 PM

>because Reed said, "eight days later, a planet dies."

This strongly implies Reed DOES have FTL technologies. Else, how can he be so much aware of what's happening in star systems light years away? We're talking shots of planets in other systems which are more detailed than Hubble manages of the farther ones in our own! And apparently in real time.

Posted by: Ratsmith at June 26, 2007 01:15 PM

Not sure if anyone addressed this already.

But wasn't it kind of inappropriate to cast Hurricane Katrina as Galactus?

Posted by: Sean Martin at June 26, 2007 05:35 PM

Rick Keating: What if, moments after destroying Alderaan, the Death Star runs afoul of Galactus? That'd be just desserts.

Nah, it was only "the size of a small moon" and the big G likes to chow down on whole planets.

Posted by: Sean Scullion at June 26, 2007 11:12 PM

"Medusa will have to be an utter badass to survive a power that will look silly on the big screen.

I don't know...CGI hair could look pretty effective."

Well, I know some purists out there will burn me in tall effigy for this, but, if they WERE to do an Inhumans movie, maybe it's not her hair that moves, but some weird, um, fuzzy telekinesis or something, and it makes her hair move around her head a la electrical current. Now, the real problem that I can see them running into is actually filming Black Bolt. How the heck would they do THAT?

"What if, moments after destroying Alderaan, the Death Star runs afoul of Galactus?"
Anybody else seeing Big G dribbling the Death Star and then dunking it through a planet's rings? Anybody? No?

Darn crickets.

Posted by: The StarWolf at June 27, 2007 08:07 AM

>I think they just needed a cool-sounding title with the words "Silver Surfer" in it, and "Rise of the Silver Surfer" sounded better than Fantastic Four and the Silver Surfer." It's basically their way of saying "The Coming of the Silver Surfer," but with fewer letters.

Let's face it, if Stan Lee or Jack Kirby had come up with the title, instead of some studion marketing hack, it probably would have read something along the lines of "Lo, the Surfer cometh!"

As for Galactus and the Death Star, think of it as an appetizer before the main course. Although, if you think about it, something that massive which has enough energy in it to do the FTL thing just might give G heartburn if the Death Star commander were to set it all off at once. Sort of the difference between drinking a pint of water in a leisurely hour or so, versus having it slam into one's face at hypersonic velocities.

Posted by: Peter David at June 27, 2007 03:39 PM

"Let's face it, if Stan Lee or Jack Kirby had come up with the title, instead of some studion marketing hack, it probably would have read something along the lines of "Lo, the Surfer cometh!""

I actually would have preferred, "Lo, the Thurfer comes!" but that's probably just me.

PAD

Posted by: Steve Chung at June 27, 2007 04:44 PM

I liked it. I felt that the actor who played Reed really got into the role around the middle of the movie, when Johnny experiences some problems with his unstable molecules. I loved how they presented the Silver Surfer. He looked like a John Buscema drawing when he stood still and a Kirby drawing when he soared through the skies. Kudos to Doug Jones for his superb work in bringing the Surfer's motions to life.

I liked Michael Chiklis as the Thing, some funny one liners, and sight gags with Stretcho near the end of the movie.

Chris Evans does a good Johnny Storm, cocky, confident, and ready to admit whenever he's in over his fiery head.

Jessica Alba as Sue Storm looked particularly good in the sequence set in England.

Kerry Washington as Alicia seems to be the Greek Chorus in much the same way that Rosemary Harris is as Aunt May in the Spider-Man movies.

Of the two movies this year, I think that Fantastic Four: Rise of The Silver Surfer was better than Spider-Man 3 in terms of story, characters, and payoff.

Oh, and Dr. Doom looked visually imposing, but as voiced by the actor playing him, he sounded like an overcaffeinated CEO than the dreaded ruler of Latveria. :)

Still a good performance, though.

Posted by: Lou at June 29, 2007 05:22 PM

One word review for this movie - embarrassing.

Posted by: John at July 16, 2007 12:00 PM

Well, now I have read Peter David's high merits for Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, and I have heard Paul Dini and Misty Lee outright trash it on their podcast. My opinion lies somewhere in between, but seeing as I respect all of your views, I would really be interested in some sort of debate. Perhaps Peter could do a guest shot on Paul and Misty's podcast.