PeterDavid.net

But what if the cavemen and the T-rex teamed up to fight the astronauts and turkeys? Then what?

Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess...

I know what you mean. Aaron Sorkin touched on the subject in one of his West Wing episodes, where Bartlett lamented people's sometimes preference for simple plain-spokenness over informed intellegent understanding. One of those moments where I nodded in familiarity and acknowledgement at the TV.

But in other (perhaps more generous) moments, I sense that it's not knowledge that some people are hostile to, but rather knowledge without promise of practical application.

Not that that paints a particularly rosier picture of the culture. But if you believe that, say, science is about two things: (1) helping us know things and (2) helping us do things, and if people are increasingly focused on the second aspect as being more important, well, I can sorta get where that feeling comes from.

Of course, Jennings' knowledge did allow him to do something--to earn a lot of money. But that's not the sort of disease-curing, technology-improving, human-condition-improving application some folks prefer.

Eh. Food for thought, as always...

Not that I wouldn't pay big money to see a T-Rex fight some tom turkeys, Peter, but the idea that eating a turkey meal can you sleepy is an urban myth.

On the other hand, the page I've linked to does admit: "Tryptophan doesn't act on the brain unless it is taken on an empty stomach with no protein present, and the amount gobbled even during a holiday feast is generally too small to have an appreciable effect." So possibly one thousand turkeys might have an effect on the King of Dinosaurs; I don't know enough of the size and mass of T-Rex to calculate whether ingesting one thousand of 'em could affect him. (Keep in mind he'd probably tramble several hundred of that thousand into flat turkey pancakes).

Doncha hate it when someone comes along after you make a funny analogy and applies real world logic to it?

T-Rex v. Turkeys? Not enough info.

Do the turkeys have bird flu?

Bully:

But tryptophan doesn't act on the brain unless it is taken on an empty stomach with no protein present, and the amount gobbled even during a holiday feast is generally too small to have an appreciable effect. That lazy, lethargic feeling so many are overcome by at the conclusion of a festive season meal is most likely due to the combination of drinking alcohol and overeating a carbohydrate-rich repast, as well as some other factors

Hmmm... well considering before Thanksgiving dinner we usually don't eat to make room (empty stomach) and the fact that my family doesn't drink alcohol on that holiday leads me to believe that it's either the tryptophan or it's one HELL of a placebo. ;)

"Not that I wouldn't pay big money to see a T-Rex fight some tom turkeys, Peter, but the idea that eating a turkey meal can you sleepy is an urban myth.

On the other hand, the page I've linked to does admit: "Tryptophan doesn't act on the brain unless it is taken on an empty stomach with no protein present, and the amount gobbled even during a holiday feast is generally too small to have an appreciable effect.""

Yes, I know, I read the wikipedia.com entry when I was double checking the spelling of "tryptophan." But I reasoned as you did: That while the amount taken in during a holiday feast might be too small, a hundred, two hundred turkeys...that's got to start adding up, even for a T-Rex.

PAD

Caveman vs. Astronauts...

Didn't William the Bloody and Angelus have this "discussion" in season 5?

Classic.

Regards:
Warren S. Jones III

"Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. ...or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing."

In this country, stupidity has been embraced. Intelligence is to be feared. This is part of the reason Bill Clinton was hated so much. Conservative politicians and pundits have made it a part of their agenda to continue and to expand this belief among their knuckle-dragging constituents.

What are the most popular entertainments today?

NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities.

A recent article I read in USA Today showed that only 17% of the US population graduates college with a 4-year degree. Is it any wonder that other countries are doing so much better in the marketplace today?

In Ohio, a family can expect to spend over 40% of its income on a child's college education. Some students can get scholarships, but what are the rest supposed to do? With the Middle Class shrinking in size, there are more families that cannot afford to send their kids to college. Pell Grants have been cut in number.

With the recent mass retirements through buyouts of workers at GM and the soon upcoming same thing happening at Ford, there will be many more people leaving the Middle Class.

The Neo-Fascist Conservatives are leading the way to shrinking the Middle Class, breaking the Unions, lowering wages for all workers, and pretty much just making sure that there will plenty of unthinking drones to work at McDonalds or Wal-Mart so that corporate profits will continue to grow.

And by the way, did anyone notice that the price of gasoline finally came down just as the election campaigns started? They want the common man to forget his anger before election day.

It's time for the American people to wake up and realize that intelligence and education are not EVIL. They are a necessity to a growing and thriving country.

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

RJM, Earth turkeys cannot fly. Kryptonian turkeys, however, can fly if they are on a planet with a yellow sun such as Earth. They also have super-strength, invulnerability, x-ray and heat vision, super-strong and super-cold breath, and are just all around bad-ass. Hunt them at your own risk.

Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. ...or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing.

My solution? Have Angelina Jolie do a bunch of READ! and Knowledge is Good PSAs dressed as a hot librarian/professor.

... considering turkeys are still around and T-Rex is long gone extinct... Haven't the turkeys already won?

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

I loved that episode.

However, we have to decide whether the T-Rex is fighting wild or domestic turkeys. Wild turkeys actually can fly. Domesticated ones, however, have been bred to grow breats so heavy that they can't fly.

It was wild turkeys, while the T-Rex is gobbling up some of the turkeys, others could fly out of his reach, regroup and then launch an aerial assault. And, if we assume that the T-Rex is starting the fight on an empty stomach, the tryptophan will add up after he swallows a few hundred of them.

My money is on the turkeys. Numerous will prevail in the end.

BTW, forget Angelina Jolie. I can't look at her without thinking that she touched Billy Bob Thornton.

Now, Erica Durance as a naughty librarian. That would get anyone red-blood American boy to read. And for the girls, I guess we can do posters with Justin Timberlake or some other boy band "face" if must.

Heck, if all you want is the Giant Rat of Sumatra...

I'd suggest you notice some of the posters at the ALA's (American Library Association)gift shop at http://www.alastore.ala.org/. Best they do for the fanboys are Keira Knightly,
Tara Dakides, Julia Stiles? And there's Neil Gaiman and Ray Bradbury. Why aren't you on one of the author posters, PD?

Peter, how can you say that Bush is intellectually stunted? Didn't you watch that interview on NBC Nightly News where he revealed to Brian Williams that he just read 'Three Shakespeares'?

As a journalist and an interviewer, am I the only one who was disappointed that Brian Williams didn't follow up that statement asking for a favorite quote, scene, character or whatever, that would made it obvious that Bush has probably never read anything by Shakespeare, let alone be able to spell his name? I would have paid good money to see that.

Uhm... okay, what I meant to say is that Earth turkeys cannot fly through space like Kryptonian turkeys can (I don't know if Superman can fly through space unaided these days, but the Kryptonian turkeys I'm talking about are pre-Crisis).

I mean, you people don't actually think I was ignorant about something, do you???

(Rhetorical question, no need to answer. Move along, move along, nothing to see here...)

"Peter, how can you say that Bush is intellectually stunted? Didn't you watch that interview on NBC Nightly News where he revealed to Brian Williams that he just read 'Three Shakespeares'?"

No,no, Bush said that he'd just listened to "Trip Shakespeare".

Responding to PAD and then Alan Coil:
"Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. ...or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing."
It's been shown that GW's grades were higher than Kerry's. Plus Bush has a Master's Degree. Power and money might get you into school, but it can't make you graduate. Democrats have been trying the 'republican candidate is stupid' card for so long, the majority of swing voters just aren't buying the hype anymore.

"In this country, stupidity has been embraced. Intelligence is to be feared. This is part of the reason Bill Clinton was hated so much. Conservative politicians and pundits have made it a part of their agenda to continue and to expand this belief among their knuckle-dragging constituents."
Is this the same Bill Clinton that thought that the most watched man in the world could get away with an affair with an intern and then lie about it? Is it the same one that claims he tried pot but didn't inhale? The problem is that many democrats consider themselves smarter than anyone else..thus everyone else is stupid.

"What are the most popular entertainments today?
NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities."
As opposed to watching baseball, football, or pretty much anything on TV, or listening to pop music or rap? People generally want their entertainment to entertain them! After a long day at work, the last thing most folks want is to have to think more.

"A recent article I read in USA Today showed that only 17% of the US population graduates college with a 4-year degree. Is it any wonder that other countries are doing so much better in the marketplace today?"
Anything using USA Today as a source defeats any arguement about intelligence. USA Today...the newspaper for people that thing broadcast news is too complex.

"In Ohio, a family can expect to spend over 40% of its income on a child's college education. Some students can get scholarships, but what are the rest supposed to do? With the Middle Class shrinking in size, there are more families that cannot afford to send their kids to college. Pell Grants have been cut in number."
The government already pays for 12 years of education for kids. And not every kid needs to go to college. There are technical schools that cost less and actually provide a better education. Plumbers and welders actually make good money and most don't have a 4 year degree.

"With the recent mass retirements through buyouts of workers at GM and the soon upcoming same thing happening at Ford, there will be many more people leaving the Middle Class."
And why are GM and Ford needing to do this? Could it have something to do with the agreement in the past that would provide full pensions to retired people? Basic math. Joe the steering wheel attacher retires and receives full pay and benefits. GM then needs to hire Bill to do the job. It now costs the company 2x (or just a little less because we can assume that Bill isn't making as much as Joe was) to have someone attach steering wheels.

"The Neo-Fascist Conservatives are leading the way to shrinking the Middle Class, breaking the Unions, lowering wages for all workers, and pretty much just making sure that there will plenty of unthinking drones to work at McDonalds or Wal-Mart so that corporate profits will continue to grow."
Ooooh. Name calling. That's the way to present an arguement. And just imagine...a company that wants to make a profit! Who would have thought that would ever happen?

I suppose you don't find it somewhat facist for democrats to threaten ABC over a movie? Let's see. Leaders of the government threating the broadcast liscense of a network because the govt. officials don't like the topic. Censorship? What about the fact that ABC doesn't have a broadcast liscense, those are held by individual stations, not the network. Would this threat fall under lack of intelligence?

"And by the way, did anyone notice that the price of gasoline finally came down just as the election campaigns started? They want the common man to forget his anger before election day."
Someone forgets that gasoline prices always come down after the summer driving season. Plus, the high prices earlier had people driving less and increased the supply. More supply, lower prices.

"It's time for the American people to wake up and realize that intelligence and education are not EVIL. They are a necessity to a growing and thriving country."
Intelligence and education are not interchangable terms either. Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree. The plumber that will come over to fix your waterheater and charges $60 per hour probably doesn't have a college degree. Heck, he might not even have a high school degree. There is currently and overabundance of lawyers in the country, but law schools are having to turn away admissions. How intelligent is it to be trying to do what so many others are doing?

Jeff, I have to agree with you that it wasn't right for certain politicians to threaten ABC with prior restraint regarding the 9/11 mini-series. It's important to point out inaccuracies and hold them accountable if they're not addressed, but it's not right to threaten them ahead of the fact.

And much as it pains me, I'm not sure I can draw a correlation between lower gas prices and the upcoming elections. Having spent endless hours listening to analysts explain why gas prices were driven above three bucks a gallon over the past year, I'm no longer convinced that our Republican-controlled government can make a few phone calls and gas prices drop overnight. If so, there were certainly a couple of times over the last several months where it would have served their purposes to do it then.

But I'm afraid I can't agree with you that just because Bush has a graduate degree, he's not, well, intellectually challenged. I'm sure lots of my fellow high school and college grads knew people who managed to get through school by taking classes that weren't all that challenging. If you told me that Bush graduated with a 4.0 average, I might cut you some slack on this one, but just the fact that he came out with a couple of degrees holds no weight for me, particularly when you add in the potential for political pressure that can be brought on educators to make sure that certain students get a pass. I won't argue whether Bush is smarter than Kerry, but I'm not going to support the contention that Bush is intelligent just because he has a couple of degrees. After six years of watching him in action, I feel I'm able to draw my own conclusions in that area.

"What are the most popular entertainments today?
NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities"

Have you listened to Country Western Music lately? I detest Rap, and I cannot get into these current bands whoselyrcistrytocrameverhtingtheywantotsayintoonestanza...

I find a lot of it to be very poignant and soothing...sometimes even thought provoking...
I'll take the positive messages of Tim McGraw's "Live like you were Dying" and Toby Keith's "Beer for My Horses" over The Black Eyed Peas talking about her 'lovely lady hump' any day...and don't get me started about Rap...geez, everyone wanting to 'cap' everyone else...not my idea of entertainment...

I'd betcha anything that Hemingway would've been a C/W fan ...

Batman, if he's prepared.

With regard to GWB's intellegence: though a topic that often seems to degenerate into useless ad hominem attacks, I will admit that increasingly, I'm coming around to the suggestion posited by, I think, Jon Stewart: I don't think the president is stupid. But I think he thinks we are...

Rumpole and the Punge Bungalow Murders is great. I listened to the unabridged audio CD of it back in April, 2005. It was read by Bill Wallis. Have a fun time reading it.

Neil
http://www.toadmail.com/~nonews/2005_04_03_archive.html

By the way, you might want to hear a radio interview with Ken Jennings from KMOX on Paul Harris' webpage at http://www.harrisonline.com/

Neil

I actually think the turkeys might stand a decent shot. Think about us. If we're in a swarm of mosquitoes, or if you really wanna scare some people I know, bees, we're off balance, we're swatting at where these pests WHERE, more often than where they actually are, so, once the Rex picks up his leg to stomp on some turkeys, they gather en masse on his other leg, knock his ungainly butt over, then peck him to death, whilst discussing amongst themselves who's going to get the Rex's drumsticks and what to do with the wishbone. And Bill-these Kryptonian Superturkeys, what would you stuff them with? And can you buy them anywhere, or just Superfresh?

I know a woman, with a master's degree, who was a teacher, yes, a teacher, before she retired. One Thanksgiving, we went over to her house for dinner. She was making the (Non-Kryptonian) turkey, which required cooking for twenty minutes per pound. It was a 16 pound turkey. She wrote "20" 16 times on a piece of paper next to the stove, set the timer for twenty minutes, then did that 14 more times until my high-school graduate mother told her to just multiply the weight by the cooking time. My point, other than weaving more turkeys into this discussion? College degrees don't mean (necessarily) that a person is smart. They may know ONE TOPIC really well, but be a complete zilch in other areas. Just because Bush is a graduate doesn't make him a hyper-intellectual. Not having one may mean nothing more than you couldn't afford to GET one.

Know where I think the hostility toward smart people come from? Americans, as a whole, think of ourselves as VASTLY superior to the rest of the planet. We invented stuff! We did stuff! But, the vast majority of people haven't invented stuff, haven't done stuff, and are just riding along on others acheievements. So, you have a small group of people with superior knowledge or experience that seem able to do things the Common People couldn't, so they are seen as Acting Like We're Better Than The Rest Of You Slobs. People don't like to be reminded, by and large, that there's something they don't know or can't understand, so they try to belittle the ones that they see as above them. Kind of like a company that has a lot of employees. 98 per cent of those employees will resent the Boss, because he's above them, so they make fun of him behind his back and in the bathroom.

Power and money might get you into school, but it can't make you graduate

Sure it can. People who write your papers for you. Suggestions from Daddy that if Junior graduates, the college gets another building.

Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree

And a mother who served on the United Way board with IBM's chairman. That's how he got the MS-DOS contract that made his fortune; look it up.

Posted by: Sean Scullion at September 15, 2006 12:53 PM

And Bill-these Kryptonian Superturkeys, what would you stuff them with?

Kryptonite. Otherwise the meat is too tough to eat.

Posted by: Sean Scullion at September 15, 2006 12:53 PM

And can you buy them anywhere, or just Superfresh?

They're an endangered species. So you can only get them through extra-legal channels.

Posted by: Sean Scullion at September 15, 2006 12:53 PM

People don't like to be reminded, by and large, that there's something they don't know or can't understand, so they try to belittle the ones that they see as above them.

I think you hit the nail right on the head, Sean.

"Heck, if all you want is the Giant Rat of Sumatra..."

Except I specifically said by Conan Doyle.

PAD

I'm just glad someone already dropped the WKRP reference. :-)

I'm not going to get into the Bush argument, since I think my opinions on the subject are already sufficiently public to get me onto several fascinating lists.

As for "this country doesn't value knowledge", however, I'm going to completely agree. Look at who makes the big money, just for starters.

It even goes as far as, oh, comic books. People used to learn to read on Marvel books (way back when), and there are certainly some creators out there (PAD among them) who have no fear of complex vocabulary and the idea that readers might actually be willing to see something new. Hell, the very first comic I remember reading (Amazing Spider-Man 164, by Len Wein and Ross Andru) drew a lot of letters a few months later because Len had misused the word "enervate." Could you imagine any such letter getting printed these days without being a setup for something massively snarky in response?

And what's the biggest seller Marvel has these days? New Avengers, which for the sake of being "cinematic" has gone through massively decompressed stories and far less dialogue than was previously the norm. I'm all for letting the visuals tell the story, but the dictum "keep it simple and obvious" seems to be written very large for that book.

Being educated and/or knowledgeable (yes, I realize they're not the same thing) used to be something we as a culture aspired to. Now it's more often dismissed as something that can be used to win trivia games and not much more.

And regardless of Bush's intelligence or lack thereof, I think this administration has taken very open anti-intellectual stances. Bush has all but said "I know where I stand, don't bother me with facts" on many a topic, and there has been relentless spin on topic after topic indicating that science is no more than one other "side" in a political process. Forget the facts -- what matters is being able to win.

Add in the number of students, even very bright ones, who say that they "don't read much," and I fear we're not much more than a generation or two away from being a post-literate society. I'm not looking forward to that.

TWL

Perhaps it has something to do with the elitist attitude of the so-called intelligentsia turning to ad hominem attacks against their political antagonists, referring to them as "knuckle draggers". The vocabulary may be sesquipedalian, but the end result is still recieved as an, 'Oh yeah? Well you're stupid!'

Ah, but what would be the result of a T-Rex drinking one thousand "Wild Turkey"s? :)

Perhaps it has something to do with the elitist attitude

You know, I don't know if this is a chicken-egg situation, but who came up with this "elitist attidue" bs, anyways?

Since most of those 'elists' are liberal college professors, I would have to guess it came from the Right.

So, who called names first? Was it the professors thinking everybody else is stupid? or was it the right-wingers telling everybody that college professors are evil liberals?

The Right certainly seems to enjoy preying on the stupidity of this country. I'm always amazed by the fact that the rich and the poor tend to be conservative, while the middle class are liberal. Why the hell are the poor conservative? It's Democrats who have done everything in their power to improve things for everybody as a whole.

Draw your own conclusions, I suppose.

Tim, Tim, Tim--did you really say "dropped" about the KRP reference? DROPPED? Have you no heart, man??

Something that goes hand in hand with not reading much is not being able to find something out when you want to. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they didn't know something or where to look to find out. Has this culture become so convinced that if it isn't instant gratification, if there's some effort involved, it isn't worth doing? Does this entire country want to jump to the back page of the collective mystery novel?

So, to get these Kryptonian turkeys, you have to go through extra-legal channels. But, what if I don't WANT extra legs?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

RJ, is it possible that the sesquipedalian exchanges between the sides is a symptom of the hostility toward the educated? For example, the Brainiac class knows that the Normals (really, just using these for the sake of arguement) EXPECTS them to speak polysyllabically, so they're just acting to type?

Peter David: Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. Whether it's the disdainful description of experts on topics as "geeks" or "nerds," or the fact that a minuscule percentage of the consumer base is responsible for the vast majority of books bought, or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing.
Luigi Novi: Thank you. I've observed this for some time too. It needs to be said.

Tim, Tim, Tim--did you really say "dropped" about the KRP reference? DROPPED? Have you no heart, man??

I'm so very sorry. I hope your sense of self-worth didn't hit the ground like a sack of wet cement...

Something that goes hand in hand with not reading much is not being able to find something out when you want to. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they didn't know something or where to look to find out. Has this culture become so convinced that if it isn't instant gratification, if there's some effort involved, it isn't worth doing? Does this entire country want to jump to the back page of the collective mystery novel?

A great point. I make it a point with students to say "I don't know, but I'll find out" -- I generally do it just to make it clear that (a) I don't know everything, and (b) it's okay not to, but your point is well taken as well.

And back to a point of Peter's that Luigi just quoted -- I'm not certain that the description as "geeks" or "nerds" is always meant disparagingly. I'll often self-describe myself as a "physics geek", "SF geek", etc. As with so many things of this type, I think it depends on the mindset of the person using it (and yes, it certainly is disparaging in some cases).

(Aside: am I the only one who summed up the Trekkie/Trekker argument as "if you care that much about the label, the label itself won't change the essential sadness of that fact"?)

TWL

Want to know the real difference between a Trekkie and a Trekker?

Trekkie has an "i", Trekker has an "r'.

Thinking of the two Bush campains, and what I kept hearing is "They think Bush is a better candidate because he's the kind of guy they'd like to sit and have a beer with." I always wanted to shake these people by the shoulders and say "What do you want, someone to lead the country or someone to sit at the bar with?" Unfortunately, we found out which. Now, I personally don't care if a president has all the personality of a bag of prunes, as long as he's doing a decent job. The guy in the White House has the personality of a bag of prunes, but he also isn't doing the job!

You know what defines the disparinging-ness of the word geek or nerd? The tone of voice.

I think it was Jon Stewart who said, "I don't want my president to be my drinking partner. I want my president to be the designated driver."

TWL

Alan Coil:
"With the recent mass retirements through buyouts of workers at GM and the soon upcoming same thing happening at Ford, there will be many more people leaving the Middle Class."
Jeff in NC:
And why are GM and Ford needing to do this? Could it have something to do with the agreement in the past that would provide full pensions to retired people? Basic math. Joe the steering wheel attacher retires and receives full pay and benefits. GM then needs to hire Bill to do the job. It now costs the company 2x (or just a little less because we can assume that Bill isn't making as much as Joe was) to have someone attach steering wheels.

So that would explain the multi-million dollar hirings of new executives by companies laying off line employees while also begging that courts uphold a company's right to alter (or abolish completely) the employees' pension plans?
Sorry, Jeff, but I'm not about to accept your "basic math" bull when a company like Ford can announce today laying off 1/3 of its white collar workers (as part of a plan/scheme to "cut costs" by 5 billion dollars by the end of 2008) while--just 10 days ago--it hires Alan Mulally as its new CEO at an annual BASE salary of 2 MILLION dollars in addition to a HIRING BONUS of 7.5 MILLION dollars PLUS 11 MILLION dollars to offset "forfeited performance and stock option awards from Boeing (his prior company) with a "variety of stock options" on top of all that. Now, how many regular workers out there in the real world--AT THE AGE OF 61--ever gets that type of compensation consideration? Hell, how likely is it that, when you reach the age of 61, any company will offer you anything more than minimum wage, especially if the company is losing billions of dollars every year?
"Basic math" to me would suggest that a company losing a billion dollars in the past year would NOT hire a new CEO at such an exorbitant salary.

Tim does his students a HUGE favor when he tells them he doesn't know something, but he'll find out. Certain profeesions, teachers, scientists, doctors, et cetera, have the expectation of Knowledge with a capital Know in it. Too many teachers that I've had had the attitude, I'm The Teacher, What I Say Is Gospel For I Know ALL. And that goes back to my company/boss analogy from before. People don't LIKE it when you know more than they do. But, when they need someone in these professions, and that person doesn't have the answer, well, they can't, I say, CAN'T be any good at their job. Too many times I've seen people who figure, "I'm out of school, I know all about the world, time to shut my brain down." Just because one doesn't know something, doesn't mean that either it can't be known is ins't worth knowing. For example, today I learned the world sesquipedalian, and I can't WAIT to use that at work. Guarantee I get a few funny looks.

A friend of mine who is a very successful animator refers to himself as a "film geek." I know I proudly wear the label of "comic-book geek."

It depends on who is using the word. To me, a "geek" can be a person who has committed passionately to excelling in a certain field with a singular, laser-like focus. I've always admired people like that and aspire to imitate them.

Yeah, I know, many people use it disparagingly. I feel badly for those people. They'll never know the thrill of immersing themselves in a passion, the magic of discovering within themselves the capacity to excel, and of pushing themselves to their limits and beyond to accomplish something worthwhile -- and maybe even contribute to stretching the boundaries of their chosen field.

You don't have to be a superstar in a glamour field to know that thrill, by the way. You just have to be committed to something. My late grandfather was a railroad man. There wasn't much room for him to innovate on the job. You just did what had to be done to make the trains run. When he retired, however, he spent a great deal of time reading anything he could get his hands on. He even read an entire encyclopedia set just to while away the time.

He made the acquisition of knowledge his personal passion, and his life was much richer for it.

Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.

You know what I love about this blog?

People get into spirited debate about Kryptonian turkeys!

My day is that much brighter now.

P.S. T-Rex, cavemen and Superman win. Now Chuck Norris vs. MacGyver, that's a debate.

Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.

Tell that to the vast percentage of the citizenry who disapprove of W's job performance.

Major case of buyer's regret there.

Jeff in NC:

You are for sure deluded if you think that an auto worker gets full pay after he retires. I don't have the exact numbers, but the annual retirement pay for an auto worker is around $15,000. The health benefits are also reduced after retirement and go away completely when the federal programs start.

"The problem is that many democrats consider themselves smarter than anyone else..thus everyone else is stupid."

This Democrat IS smarter than average, but I don't assume that everybody else is stupid. If you know anything about statistics, you know that most people are in a large group near the center. That means that only those with the lowest IQ ratings are stupid.

"The plumber that will come over to fix your waterheater and charges $60 per hour probably doesn't have a college degree."

I agree that not everyone needs a college degree. But the lack of properly educated people leads to the current situation where foreign born workers are moving top the US to get high paying jobs. (And don't come back to me with that weak-assed thought of illegal immigrants don't get high paying jobs; I'm talking about properly trained professionals.)

Posted by: Eric! at September 15, 2006 02:53 PM

Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.

Eric!, I'm afraid you're an example of exactly what Peter is talking about.

What you're saying is, "Don't reflect, don't analyze, don't think -- just focus on what's in front of you at this moment."

Some people recognize the need to do more than that. Some of us want to understand things, so we can be in the driver's seat of life rather than the passenger's seat.

But, hey, you can ride in the passenger's seat if you wish. If you don't like where the driver takes you, though, he may tell you...

"Get over it." And you'll have no choice in the matter.

"Tim, Tim, Tim--did you really say "dropped" about the KRP reference? DROPPED? Have you no heart, man??

I'm so very sorry. I hope your sense of self-worth didn't hit the ground like a sack of wet cement..."

Should that happen, they'll probably be blown away by the Godless tornado.

"Thinking of the two Bush campaigns, and what I kept hearing is "They think Bush is a better candidate because he's the kind of guy they'd like to sit and have a beer with." I always wanted to shake these people by the shoulders and say "What do you want, someone to lead the country or someone to sit at the bar with?""

Blame part of it on television. Campaigns have become less about who is best qualified to lead, but instead who do people feel at ease aobut "letting into their homes." They choose presidents the same way they choose what to watch on a Thursday night: By comfort level.

PAD

Posted by: Queen Anthai at September 15, 2006 03:03 PM

You know what I love about this blog?

People get into spirited debate about Kryptonian turkeys!

Pre-Crisis Kryptonian turkeys, no less.

I am far less familiar with Post-Crisis Kryptonian turkeys. I presume they are less powerful and very confused about their origins.

You know, it just occurred to me -- if the post-Crisis Kryptonian turkeys are from the Byrne revamp era, during which Krypton was portrayed as a cold, emotionless and sterile world... would they be cold turkeys?

I know, I know, that was bad... but I couldn't resist.

I have no idea why I'm on this Kryptonian turkey riff. But now that I am I just can't seem to stop myself.

Dan Nakasagi asked:

"Have you listened to Country Western Music lately?"

Country Western music was what I grew up on. Today's so-called Country Western is banal.

I'm not a big fan of Rap, either, but Eminem is a f888ing genius.

"Beer for My Horses"

What kind of crack was he smoking when he wrote that song?

Thinking of the two Bush campains, and what I kept hearing is "They think Bush is a better candidate because he's the kind of guy they'd like to sit and have a beer with." I always wanted to shake these people by the shoulders and say "What do you want, someone to lead the country or someone to sit at the bar with?"

Y’know, I’ve always gotten a kick out of this notion since Bush, being a former alcoholic (or a dry drunk), would theoretically not have a beer with *anyone*.

Of course, the Onion has its own take on the phenomenon: “Long-Awaited Beer With Bush Really Awkward, Voter Reports” (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42590).

Jim in NC said:

"Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree."

That is an exceptional case. Using one case to argue a point is just plain dishonest. In a country of almost 300,000,000 people, even a thousand or two stories about successful people who did not get a degree doesn't properly illustrate a point.

My friend was having trouble convincing her son of the importance of attending college. He finally "got it" when he found out that college graduates, on average, make twice as much as those who only have a high school degree.

"The government already pays for 12 years of education for kids."

No, the government does not pay for that. YOU DO. It is part of making a better society. People with no education at all are more likely to live in poverty and are more likely to commit crimes.

Better educated people are more likely to get better paying jobs, which leads in turn to more tax income for the federal, state, and local governments, which makes for better roads and cleaner and safer water, to name two specific benefits of people having more education.

[b]Posted by Bill Myers
Some people recognize the need to do more than that. Some of us want to understand things, so we can be in the driver's seat of life rather than the passenger's seat.
[/b]
Bill, how long you going to sit in that driver's seat when the car's outta gas and has 4 flats. Get over the fact your car is broken down, either get a new car, fix it or get out and walk, bithin' about it for years ain't fixing it.

Eric!, the problem is, voting for president's not as cut-and-dried as getting your car fixed. For one thing, we've got awhile before we vote for the next president. We can't just, y'know, trade him in anytime we want.

Moreover, when your car's as busted as the one in your hypothetical, you know it. The issues surrounding the presidency are more complex and take more time to discuss. People of goodwill can even disagree about what, if anything, is broken.

I'm afraid your broken car analogy fails because there aren't enough parallels between it and the discussion surrounding the presidency.

Bill said: I'm afraid your broken car analogy fails because there aren't enough parallels between it and the discussion surrounding the presidency.

Bill, it's your car we were sitting in before, now it's mine? Man, you liberals do give away stuff easy (I'm sure somewhere my taxes paid for the car). Yes, Bill it is more complicated than the car, I was talking in your terms. My point is nothing new is being brought to the table about this discussion after all these years.

I've said this before, but as much fun as it is to pick on Bush for being intellectually challenged, I don't really think he's a stupid man, but he is anti-intellectual. I don't for a second believe he actually read Camus (c'mon, a French author?) or Shakespeare this summer without a promise of free tickets to Six Flags if he finished by Labor Day.

Time and time again, Bush as shown that he is not interested in having his own views challenged. When confronted with two opposing viewpoints, he bases his decision on which side most conforms to his preexisting views, rather than which side made more compelling factual argument. Besides the Iraq and WMD issue that has been discussed to death, there's also the fact that he is generally hostile to science in general. Again, he consistantly chooses the side which best appeases his base rather than which side has the bulk of scientific evidence behind it.

Now, as to the subject of elitism. I'd love to known where this idea came from that people earning college professor wages have become the "elitists" of this country, but billionaire CEOs and those with the connections to buy a baseball team by calling a few of daddy's friends are considered just plain ol' Americans.

Take a college professor and the CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation. Tell me which one is more likely to accepted into an exclusive country club. Then tell me who the real "elites" of this country are.

I'm just amazed (although I shouldn't be) how quickly and simply that a tale of Ken Jennngs turns into an insult for the President of the United States.

Although I quickly become amused, bemused, and then somewhat disapointed that after the antipathy of President Bush is clearly stated, the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.

I've studied the man. Why does anyone here think that Senator Kerry has the qualities neccessary to deal with the trials, tribulations and tasks that are for the leader of the free world?

I saw the man speak before the Senate last week, September 6. The occasion was the discussion (a reiteration, of course) for the removal of Donald Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense. Senator Kerry had his chance to speak and spoke not quite of anything about Secretary Rumsfeld but instead repeated the majority of the points, claims, and statements that he made during his failed bid for the Presidency. Before he did that he made some mis-statements about claims of the President and Pro-Victory/Pro-War people and possibly some true statements about inaccurate beliefs that some American people may hold. I don't know if he ever did get to speaking about Donald Rumsfeld because I got bored and muted him.

The point being I would take plain-spokenness as a sign of intelligentness if it means that in a discussion about condemning a government official you actually lead off by condemning the government official instead of repeating old stuff that never led anywhere anyway.

As far as the T-Rex vs Turkey fight goes, it seems to me to be a no-brainer. Turkeys don't organize so 1000 or 1 million wouldn't matter much. They'd be eaten and stomped on and never dream of attacking the dinosaur. If they got hungry they'd eat each other before they'd take on a killing machine like the Tyrannosaurus.

100 midgets vs a T-Rex, now that's cool.

I think it was Jon Stewart who said, "I don't want my president to be my drinking partner. I want my president to be the designated driver."

And Ted Kennedy's ambitions take another blow.

What are the most popular entertainments today?

NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities.

I'm not sure "mind bending" is what we are looking for if we want to increase the national intelligence you are so worried about. If so, I hear that the small white mushrooms you find under cow patties may do the trick.

As for country music, it's not generally my thing but I would put the best CW music up against the best hip hop and rap and I think the country best would win in terms of artistry involved. Of course, this is subjective and not very useful to the argument at hand. In fact, I don't think you can draw many valid conclusions from how people entertain themselves--certainly the folks who sniff at those who read mere comic books reveal more about their own ignorance than they do about the targets of their derision.

A recent article I read in USA Today showed that only 17% of the US population graduates college with a 4-year degree. Is it any wonder that other countries are doing so much better in the marketplace today?

Did that USA Today article say anything about how 17% stacks up against other countries? What I've read seems to indicate that we are among the most highly educated countries on Earth. At http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-collegeglut.htm they compare us to a bunch and we look pretty good. Now, these statistics can be tricky. Another source--http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/051700-01.htm says that the USA has fallen behind Norway, Britain, and the Netherlands, though with a number of 33 percent graduating from college that sounds a good bit better than USA Today indicated. I am not aware that Norway, Britain, and the Netherlands are exactly killing us in "the marketplace" by the way.

(You have to be very careful in looking at education statistics. When they say that Upper Volta or Left Fenwick have 25% of their students graduate from college, what does that mean? Does everyone even get to be a student or is it just those who can afford it?).

At any rate, I think the reports of our hostility to knowledge are greatly exaggerated. I think we probably DO lead the world in having people who think they are a whole lot smarter than the folks around them.

Posted by: Eric! at September 15, 2006 04:10 PM

Bill, it's your car we were sitting in before, now it's mine? Man, you liberals do give away stuff easy (I'm sure somewhere my taxes paid for the car). Yes, Bill it is more complicated than the car, I was talking in your terms. My point is nothing new is being brought to the table about this discussion after all these years.

Eric!, now you're just playing rhetorical games. My driving analogy was merely about who is in the driver's seat -- in other words, who is taking charge of their own destiny by thinking ahead and planning their trip, instead of letting someone else do that for them. My point was that if you merely live moment-to-moment, only focusing on what's in front of your nose, you'll be a passenger on someone else's trip.

Your analogy about a broken-down car was something else entirely. And as I pointed out, it fails because it is too dissimilar to that which is being discussed.

By the way, I apologize for breaking out of the little box you tried to put me in, but if McCain, a REAL conservative, runs for president in '08, he'll probably have my vote.

>Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess.

The problem with this sentence is that "wave" suggests something either recent, or temporary. Given that Dr. Asimov's 1967 essay THE CULT OF IGNORANCE bemoaned pretty much the same thing, I'd say we've got even more to worry about than something that's merely a passing fad.

Although I quickly become amused, bemused, and then somewhat disapointed that after the antipathy of President Bush is clearly stated, the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.

Really? Because I did a search of this entire page and the comments about Kerry were made by people disparaging him ,ie, saying his grades were lower than Bush's, or telling everyone "get over" the fact that he lost. I haven't seen anyone describe him as their "fantasy" chief executive.

Now, I voted for Kerry, but I would have voted for Goofy over Bush. He was never my first choice or even my fifth choice for president. He was, however, the only viable alternative to the four more years of lies and incompetence that we are now stuck with.

Peter made a comment dispairing over how little intellectual achievement is valued in today's society. While this trend did not start with him, like it or not, Bush does symbolize that. He is not a thinker. Even his college professors described him as a man of limited intellectual curiosity.

Kerry does have a tendency to talk in circles with overly complicated sentences. Sadly, our sound bite political races today have little patience for any candidate that can't get a point across in under five seconds. I don't know what kind of president he would have been and we'll probably never know that.

It is interesting, however, in that a criticism of Bush is immediately countered with a comparison of his grades to Kerry's. So, is Kerry the "fantasy chief executive" of Bush's critics, or, having been beaten by them once, the fantasy opponent for Bush's supporters?

And Ted Kennedy's ambitions take another blow.

Teddie's chances of becoming president have been dead in the water (ouch!) for 30 years now.
He hasn't even tried to run for president since 1980, yet it's amazing how many people keep bringing him up.

Looking around the blogs, I'd say that Ted Kennedy's driving record is second most popular obsession of conservative bloggers.

The first, of course, is Bill Clinton's penis.

And Bill, this wasn't directed at you personnally. It's just something that I find amusing.

and according to my decidedly left-wing public policy class, President Clinton's nationalized healthcare plan might have gone over better with the general public if it could have been described in a more plainly-spoken fashion.

Re: country music -

I'll admit that there is more lyrical skill and much (much) more musicianship involved in country than in boy band music - but it's just as intolerably annoying as boy band junk. Some people have begun bringing their own radios into work recently, and there have been some days when someone has had the country station on. (Luckily, I haven't had to work within hearing range of such a radio for any long stretches of time.) And I just cannot comprehend why someone would CHOOSE to listen to that ye-haw yodelly twangy annoying garbage. Some of the female singers are less high-pitched accentedly-awful than most of the men, but still... to me, it seems like saying "I will listen to a forty-five minute recording of dentist drills and nails on chalkboards! Woo!"

To: Bill Myers
Re: Cold turkeys

YOU BROKE MY BRAIN.

the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.

In whose f***ing universe, Chris? Nobody who's spoken up on this thread, that's for sure.

When I think of various fantasy alternative candidates, I could name a few dozen Democrats and at least a few Republicans I'd put ahead of Kerry.

Whlie I disagree with your points most of the time, they do usually qualify as rational. This is not one of those times.

TWL

The turkey question reminded me of a fun little book called GRUDGE MATCH that (sadly) never spawned a second volume. The book set up "battles" between different foes, usually ones selected from pop culture. But one match was "A Rottweiler vs. A Rottweiler's Weight in Chihuahuas."

The book was derived from the following website which, though the battles have ended, is still around:

http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html

I think my favorite match-up was "Red-Shirted Ensigns vs. Stormtroopers."

Re: Bush's degrees.

Well, as someone who's attended Yale (admittedly as a grad student to Bush's undergrad) and been reasonably closely associated with a group of Harvard undergrads, my take on them is as follows;

1) When Bush attended Yale, it was right at the cusp of switching from a serious old boys with a minority of random smart sharp types school to the other way around. Given his legacy status, and the time he was admitted, Bush need not have been anywhere near the level you'd currently associate with a Yale admittee. Especially given his family's prominence in Connecticut, where Yale is located, politics.

2) Not that well known fact about the top Ivies even today; it's a lot easier to stay in once admitted than to get in. Harvard's grade inflation got so bad that a few years ago it was revealed that 90+% of undergrads were graduating with honors and they had to tone it down. Assuming this was also the case in Bush's time, he would've had to make a significant effort to manage to get booted.

Given those factors, and Bush's own performance, words, and beliefs, I don't consider him smart or intellectually curious. To put it another way, I can't see having a real conversation with Bush on issues where he wasn't sticking to talking points and generalities. I'm honestly not sure if one could have such with Kerry. I have had such with Gore. I'm pretty sure I could have such with either Clinton.

Peter David: Blame part of it on television. Campaigns have become less about who is best qualified to lead, but instead who do people feel at ease aobut "letting into their homes." They choose presidents the same way they choose what to watch on a Thursday night: By comfort level.
Luigi Novi: Precisely. We’re living in a society where we adjudicate matters of great importance with the thinking of high school cliques. How you look, what clothes you wear, what religion your are, etc., are all actual criteria people use instead of merit or ability. This is a society where two defendants on trial for blowing their parents away with shotguns are perceived by some to have a greater chance of leniency if they’re wearing nice sweaters.

Television may certainly have exacerbated this mentality, though I would even the earliest visual media like photography began it. Anybody know if there’s any truth to the story I was told by a politics instructor in college that the pockmarked-faced Abraham Lincoln grew his beard because of a letter from a girl who told him that he’d make a good President if only he wasn’t so ugly? I could find no mention of it on Snopes.

Peter David: Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. ...or...let's face it...that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency...there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing.

Alan Coil: It's time for the American people to wake up and realize that intelligence and education are not EVIL. They are a necessity to a growing and thriving country.

Jeff in NC: It's been shown that GW's grades were higher than Kerry's. Plus Bush has a Master's Degree.
Luigi Novi: Peter and Alan didn’t say anything about grades or degrees. Peter mentioned the antipathy towards knowledge and intellect, and Alan mentioned intelligence and education, which are not synonymous with formal education. The fact that Bush has such degrees is certainly proof of that, possibly in part because he got into the schools he attended because of family connections, and possibly because school curricula are not the one and only ideal measure of intelligence or worth for all people. But Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be. John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability.

Eric: Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.
Luigi Novi: No one mentioned Gore except you, and the only person who mentioned Kerry’s loss in the election before you was Blue Spider, who clearly opined that Kerry did not have greater qualifications than Bush to be President, and Den, who admitted that he didn’t think Kerry was a very good candidate, and who criticized Kerry for his style of speaking.

So whose comments are you responding to?

Looking around the blogs, I'd say that Ted Kennedy's driving record is second most popular obsession of conservative bloggers.

That's possible. It's just an amazing and apalling thing to me that a guy so manifestly evil should have made it this far. He's the Senator who is most like a fictional character out of Dickens or Lovecraft. "Ted Kennedy at the wheel" is jyust shorthand for everything that is wrong with things. It's like "Mirab, his sails unfurled" to a Tamarian.

(And don't think of Kennedy as a typical liberal, Democrat, or even Kennedy. He's one of a kind.)

Television may certainly have exacerbated this mentality, though I would even the earliest visual media like photography began it. Anybody know if there’s any truth to the story I was told by a politics instructor in college that the pockmarked-faced Abraham Lincoln grew his beard because of a letter from a girl who told him that he’d make a good President if only he wasn’t so ugly? I could find no mention of it on Snopes.

I remember that story but since most voters never saw the guy they voted for how much of a difference would it have made.

Oops! here's the story from wiki--Grace Bedell, an 11-year old girl from Westfield, New York, sent Abraham Lincoln a letter on October 15, 1860 (a few weeks before Lincoln was elected President of the United States). Bedell urged Lincoln to grow a beard to improve his appearance. Lincoln responded in a letter on October 19, 1860, making no promises. However, within a month, he grew a full beard.

Dear Sir

My father has just home from the fair and brought home your picture and Mr. Hamlin's. I am a little girl only 11 years old, but want you should be President of the United States very much so I hope you wont think me very bold to write to such a great man as you are. Have you any little girls about as large as I am if so give them my love and tell her to write to me if you cannot answer this letter. I have got 4 brothers and part of them will vote for you any way and if you let your whiskers grow I will try and get the rest of them to vote for you you would look a great deal better for your face is so thin. All the ladies like whiskers and they would tease their husbands to vote for you and then you would be President. My father is going to vote for you and if I was a man I would vote for you to but I will try to get every one to vote for you that I can I think that rail fence around your picture makes it look very pretty I have got a little baby sister she is nine weeks old and is just as cunning as can be. When you direct your letter direct to Grace Bedell Westfield Chautauqua County New York.

I must not write any more answer this letter right off Good bye

Grace Bedell

Alan Culy (seeing as you insisted on calling me "Dan Nakasagi") said:

"What kind of crack was he smoking when he wrote that song?"

Oh, come on...the first image that came to mind when I first heard that song was Thor and the Warriors Three sitting down at a table in an Inn, swigging down flaggons of Ale....(grin)--sorry, not into emocons...I need words...

Exciting or Banal is a matter of opinion, not a universal truth-- it can based on the individual's experience and what is available in other genere's of the day...

And I'm sorry...but ALL RAP SUCKS (in my opinion)...if they were such geniuses, why couldn't they put their thoughts and feelings into the iambic pentameters of real poetry?

"Ted Kennedy at the wheel" is jyust shorthand for everything that is wrong with things. It's like "Mirab, his sails unfurled" to a Tamarian.
-----------------------------------------

Would you rather it be "Clinton, his zipper undone" (probably THE most popular obsession...) (grin)?

Would you rather it be "Clinton, his zipper undone" (probably THE most popular obsession...) (grin)?

Well, at least Clinton's got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. ;)

Well, at least Clinton's got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. ;)

Oh THANKS Craig! Ever try to get coffee stains off of a keyboard?

You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth. To me, intelligence is like snowflakes--no two are exactly the same, and to imply that one is of more worth than the others just doesn't make sense.

If you don't like someone or something, what's wrong with simply saying 'I don't like _____." Why do people feel that they have to justify it by belittling it?

When you say you like ______, people don't ask you why you like _____. Yet, if you don't like _______, it seems as though people simply have to know WHY you don't like _______.

So then you have to come up with absolutes as to WHY you don't like______. And because you use absolutes to justify your dislike, people take it as a truth about that person/place/thing.

Its this intelligence thing keeps coming up though--its fast becoming one of my pet peeves.
---------------------------------------------
Luigi--"The fact that Bush has such degrees is certainly proof of that, possibly in part because he got into the schools he attended because of family connections, and possibly because school curricula are not the one and only ideal measure of intelligence or worth for all people. But Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be. John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability."

-----------------------------
Luigi, I'm sorry, but that's just misleading---you sound as though you know for a fact that Bush
"he got into the schools he attended because of family connections"--you can't prove that and you know it.

"John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability."
---what good are intellectual pursuits like reading if you're not going to use the information that you've read about? And what does speaking ability have to do with anything? Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?

And before you go on to call me a troll, yes, yes, I DO know 'what you mean.'

I simply don't like it...

And while we are on the subject of intelligence:
"Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be."

Education, as it is a topic, takes the singular, not the plural. The sentence should read: Alan's statement is correct: Education (not necessarily "college" or "degrees") IS necessary, even if its not perceived to be. (You see,I did not eschew nor disdain English Grammar....(grin))

Craig wrote:

"Well, at least Clinton's got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. ;)

------------------------------
And it remains to be seen as to whether Clinton wore an Apple Cap or a Stetson 10-Gallon...
(although frankly speaking, I really don't care to actually SEE it....)

Bill Mulligan said:
"Oh THANKS Craig! Ever try to get coffee stains off of a keyboard?"
-----------------------------
...and I guess Clinton never found out how to get stains off a dress, either...

And on a complete different topic, Peter David fans can hear him discuss his current body of work, including "Fall of Knight," "Soulsearchers and Company," "Fallen Angel," "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man," "X-Factor," and "Marvel 1602: Fantastick Four" at 11:30 PM EDT tonight when he makes his record-breaking 19th appearance on "Destinies-The Voice of Science Fiction." For those in the Long Island/Connecticut area, "Destinies" airs on 90.1 FM, WUSB, Stony Brook, NY. Others can listen live through links at www.wusb.fm. After the broadcast, the show will be archived and available for free at www.captphilonline.com/Destinies.html. And, as a bonus, further down the page on that site, you will be able to hear Peter's October 24, 2003 appearance on "Destinies."

And it remains to be seen as to whether Clinton wore an Apple Cap or a Stetson 10-Gallon...

Well, according to Gennifer Flowers he'll never be on a hung jury...

Novi:
So whose comments are you responding to?
Um, that'd be PAD's, he mentioned the election Bush won, maybe you'd like to forget who he ran against, but that won't make it so.

Bill:Your analogy about a broken-down car was something else entirely. And as I pointed out, it fails because it is too dissimilar to that which is being discussed.

My car wasn't about the election, it was about the same argument that is brought up reguarding the election, and how that is getting nobody anywhere, kind of like a broken car, ypu may be right maybe broken record is better. The usual arguaments:
- Americans are stupid
- Election was stolen
- He didn't get popular vote yadda yadda on and on......we've heard it and it's nothing new.

Sorry, would have jumped in sooner but wrestling was on. Finley, he loves to fight!!!!

I think some of you guys have been arguing two different things but calling it by the same name. Some of you seem to be making statements that apply to intelligence while other are arguing the finer point of intellect.

Bush does have some intelligence. He has shown the ability to capitalize on what skills he does have, even if his greatest skill was being born to a family with connections, better then most. His grades aren't necessarily an indicator of his level of intelligence either. I've known some people who are terrifyingly brilliant but were just lazy or uninterested while going through school and, as did Bush, scraped by with mostly Ds.

What Bush doesn't seem to have is intellect. Bush shows that he has very little regard for intellect or intellectual growth. He disdains serious reading, has stated he cares little for watching or reading the news or of the events of the world and has had several rather infamous meetings with experts where he left early and asked for the summery short version notes or highlights for later. His pattern of bankrupting every business that he got hold of while learning no lessons to not bankrupt the next business (or the country) shows either the inability to learn from his past endeavors/mistake or simply no desire to do so. He has also had a publicly know disdain for "intellectuals" that goes back to when his dad was in office that many of his followers hold up as one of his great character assets.

Did his victory really say anything about how the country views intelligence? No. But the statements at the time of the 2000 and 2004 elections do say something about just about half of the U.S. voters. Dig up some old editorials, letters to the editors or transcripts of call in shows on radio and TV. Most of the people who were identifying themselves as Bush backers were talking about how great it was that he wasn't that bright. A huge number of hosts talked about how Clinton, Gore and Kerry were policy wonks or nerds and how great it would be/was to have a regular Joe as President. A huge number of his own backers were publicly saying how great it was that he didn't seem as smart as his predecessors and actually attacked his opponents for being smart or having knowledge about policy issues.

And those same people are the ones who seem to most violently hate intellect. Anyone with a degree or a PHD in front of their name is an elite and can't be trusted. Those elites are out of touch with "regular" America and think they can tell dumb ass middle America what to do. Scientists aren't to be trusted and most doctors really have no clue what their talking about either.

My favorite phrase coming out of some, and I stress some rather then all, conservative circles and conservative talk shows is, "I'm not a scientist, but I am a thinker." This is usually followed with an observation about science, history or academe that is painfully wrong but greeted with thumbs ups from fellow "thinkers" in the room. It's just, so we're told, common sense. Problem is, common sense and real life don't always work off of the same page. But a whole lot of people out there would rather be happy about their common sense being better then those elite's "facts" then have to admit that they might be wrong about something and change they're POV. It's seems to be the mindset that keeps talk radio alive.

Bush, to some degree, did win because he seemed more of a regular guy and not really that bright. The scary thing, when talking about learning curves and intellect, is that his most ardent supporters seem to only grow more enamored of him the dumber his actions and statements seem to get. Wonder who they'll lower their standards for in 2008?

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 15, 2006 06:22 PM

It's like "Mirab, his sails unfurled" to a Tamarian.

Now THAT reference I got.

Geez, Bill, it's scary. You're AT LEAST as nerdy as I am.

By the way, I know I could have merely looked up "Atragon" via Google. But you wouldn't have had nearly as much fun if I had. So I decided to play "Khidir beneath Momouteh."

In other words... "Temba, his arms wide."

Jerry C, regarding your last post...

You know by now that do so I love to go on (and on, and on, and...). But your analysis of George W. Bush, and people's reasons for voting for him, is dead on and leaves me with nothing to add worth adding.

Well, nothing except to say: well said, my good man.

Sorry, Alan Coil, you lost me when you called Eminem a "f888ing genius". A f888ing BIGOT, that I'll go along with.

And, of course, many Americans hate intelligent people. Intelligent people make it harder for some to push their religious agendas (read: creationism is schools).

Getting a STNG ref ain't that scary.

Now, it might have been scary if you had said that you ran right out and bought Atragon. But only scary because it sells at such a nice price at deepdiscountdvd.com (free shipping). Don't want you spending more money then you have too.

Now, I have to be going. There's a group of nut balls from Ansby running around outside going on about crusades and I have to go ask them to move their spaceship. It's squashing my tomato vines.

Thanks.

That should say:

Bill,

Thanks

I keep loosing bits on the starts and ends of posts this week. Is it only me?

You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth.

A valiant attempt to cloud the issue, but no dice. I don't see anybody trying to say that being more intelligent makes one intrinsically "better" than someone else. The original post and subsequent conversation largely bemoan the ever-present, and seemingly growing anti-intellectual sentiment in American society.

Also, while intelligence is not a fair yardstick of human "worth," it's a damn good indicator of a person's qualifications for a job, especially one with the responsibilities inherent in the highest political office in our nation, possibly the world.

And what does speaking ability have to do with anything? Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?

And now you're being disingenuous at best, deliberately thick and insulting at worst. The ability to form a coherent sentence and orate well in front of a crowd is not the same as the physical ability to speak. Even since he lost the capacity for physical speech and has to communicate through a machine, Professor Hawking still has the ability to present interesting (and yes, intellectual) ideas in an interesting and intelligible manner.

-Rex Hondo-

Can I just take a moment to say this is a thread I'll remember on my deathbed?

Turkeys vs T. Rex, cogent (and semi-cogent, and not-at-all cogent) political debate, and a reference to Tamrians all in one place...

I salute you all - even the facist right-wingers! ;)

I keep expecting to see trekkies at cons conversing in Tamarian. Perhaps even adding to the rich metaphorical history. "Herman at Creationcon"; "Jeffrey, his virginity unendangered."; "Eugene, alone in his basement."

"...and I guess Clinton never found out how to get stains off a dress, either..."

Y'know, Dan, I remember how you said that you showed up here apparently to provide laughs. Just for the record, the only thing you've ever said that I considered remotely funny was the whining e-mail you sent me claiming I'd been censoring you, and how everyone was being mean to you, and how you were packing up and leaving because you could take a hint...when all that was happening was that your posts were being caught in the spam filter.

I laughed at that.

PAD

I realize that this was said a million comments ago but implying that NASCAR, Pro-wrestling, and country music are signs of stupidity IS a sign of stupidity or, more likely, mean-spiritedness and ignorance.

I find NASCAR boring, wrestling outdated, and country music vapid and possibly evil but none of these things are signs of stupidity. They're signs of that mythical liberal elitism making itself true. Statements like that are part of the problem with this country and drive people who like such things away from those who can help them and into the arms of Bush.

"Wonder who they'll lower their standards for in 2008?"

See, that's it right there. That standards are being lowered. Dan Quayle was a liability years ago, generally perceived as an intellectual lightweight not remotely capable of being president.

Bush makes Dan Quayle look like Aristotle.

PAD

Posted by: Kim Metzger at September 15, 2006
">http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html

Okay, I am TOTALLY settling this RIGHT NOW.

http://www.ultimateshowdown.org/

So there.

RE: Turkeys vs. T-Rex

A few possible scenarios as I see them:

A) Regular ol' Earth Turkeys vs T-Rex. T-Rex'll win this one hands down. Setting aside that turkeys are possibly the dumbest creatures on God's green earth, their numbers would most likely work against them. They have to worry about hitting each other, and Rex (hee hee) can stomp and gobble anything he wants.

B) Pre-Crisis Kryptonian Turkeys vs T-Rex. Part of the suite of powers granted by a yellow sun to pre-Crisis Kryptonians was super intellect. So, assuming the fight is taking place on Earth, the Super-Turkeys should have little trouble overwhelming the T-Rex.

C) Post-Crisis Kryptonian Turkeys vs T-Rex. Now, last I checked, the super intellect was not a current part of Supes' (eat it Byrne) powers. So, even though they're super powered, they have no cohesive strategy and their numbers are going to be working against each other again. If the T-Rex can bob and weave enough to let the gobblers take themselves out with fairly random heat rays and such, he could still come out on top, but it's about a 50/50 thing.

-Rex Hondo-

The Kryptonian turkeys wouldn't be a problem. See, in one of his anti-Superman schemes, Lex wound up millions of years in the past and was confronted by that T-Rex which he then shot with the only weapon he had at the time. An anti-Superman machine gun with Kryptonite bullets. They weren't enhough to kill the T-Rex, just drive it away for a bit. But they're still in his body and when the turkeys get too close ...

Posted by Alan Coil

In this country, stupidity has been embraced. Intelligence is to be feared. This is part of the reason Bill Clinton was hated so much. Conservative politicians and pundits have made it a part of their agenda to continue and to expand this belief among their knuckle-dragging constituents.

"Suppose you were an idiot.

"Now suppose you were a Congressman.

"But I repeat myself."

-Mark Twain

Posted by RJM

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

A particularly pointed joke for Atlantans - like many bits on "WKRP", it actually happened here at (i think) WSB, where the "WKRP" creator was Program Director. (The teevee version is somewhat exaggerated, of course.)

Posted by Joe Nazzaro

Bush has probably never read anything by Shakespeare, let alone be able to spell his name?

Why are you holding Bush to a higher standard than Shakespeare (Shaksper, Shakespear, Shakspeer, etc.)?

Posted by Jeff

It's been shown that GW's grades were higher than Kerry's. Plus Bush has a Master's Degree. Power and money might get you into school, but it can't make you graduate.

What colour is the sky in your world?

I'd just about bet that Bush took "crip" courses. At Georgia Tech, in my day, Geology 101 was informally known as "Rocks for Jocks"... And i don't know if the Georgia Tech IM program has yet recovered fully from the Pepper Rogers days when that was the major of choice for jocks.

If the average football player can graduate, certainly a rich man's son can buy a degree.

Is this the same Bill Clinton that thought that the most watched man in the world could get away with an affair with an intern and then lie about it?

No, this is the same Bill Clinton who figured he'd get the same "pass" from the press that a number of Presidents of both parties, since at least FDR, have gotten from the press. (Incluyding, according to an article i saw somewhere recently, quite possibly the current President's father.)

Anything using USA Today as a source defeats any arguement about intelligence. USA Today...the newspaper for people that thing broadcast news is too complex.

Just as Unitarians are frequently lapsed Episcopalians, regular Fox News watchers tend to be people whose lips get tired reading USA Today

Posted by Joe Nazzaro

And much as it pains me, I'm not sure I can draw a correlation between lower gas prices and the upcoming elections.

Yaeh, i wish i could blame Bush for being that smart.

Oil futures have been driving prices, according to one report i read, and that market is just about saturated; i read yeaterday that futures price are at a two-year low.

Posted by Jon Meltzer

Power and money might get you into school, but it can't make you graduate

Sure it can. People who write your papers for you. Suggestions from Daddy that if Junior graduates, the college gets another building.

Long joke short: Famous race trainer dies. Leaves twenty million to UK. COndition: Award degree to his favourite horse. Dean of Law School say "No problem.. Do you know how nice it's going to be to award a law degree to a whole horse for once?"

Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree

And a mother who served on the United Way board with IBM's chairman. That's how he got the MS-DOS contract that made his fortune; look it up.

That and the head of Digital Research blew off his appointment with the IBM suits.

Posted by Sasha

Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.

Tell that to the vast percentage of the citizenry who disapprove of W's job performance.

And to the small but significant portion of the electorate who were disenfanchised by the Florida Secretary of State and/or the US Supreme Court.

Posted by Alan Coil

You are for sure deluded if you think that an auto worker gets full pay after he retires. I don't have the exact numbers, but the annual retirement pay for an auto worker is around $15,000.

A typical contract for which i could find numbers:

The United Auto Workers, against seemingly long odds, has won wage increases and pension improvements for the more than 4000 union members employed by New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. (NUMMI) - the General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. joint venture in Fremont, California.

Over the life of the agreement, the monthly pension benefit will increase $47.45 to $51.65 per year of credited service

The Car Connection. 9/15/06
">http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/NUMMI_UAW_Agree_on_Pact.S175.A9078.html

Okay. accept the lower (current) as typical of the industry (and it is). Assume thirty years of service.

30 x $47.45 x 12 = $17000 plus.

A lot of autoworkers (like most unionised industrial workers) tend to spend their entire career at one company, which means more like forty or even fifty years (start at 18, work till 67). So he starts at age 20, works till he's 65, and gets the higher rate:

45 x $51.65 x 12 = $27891

Hardly $15000

And the health benefits retirees get are hadly trivial, or GM wouldn't work so hard to get out of pating them.

And there is mention in that article of annual lump-sum bonuses for retirees.

Dan Nakasagi asked:

"Have you listened to Country Western Music lately?"

Country Western music was what I grew up on. Today's so-called Country Western is banal.

alt.country is where you wanna be, my man -- Jason & the Scorchers, BR-549, Hank III, Junior Brown, Commander Cody, Asleep at the Wheel, the Waco Brothers...

By The Way:

Didn't Mrs. David attend Yale? If so, does she have any opinions on the question of the Shrub's (alleged) intellectual gifts?

Hey! "Preview" works!

When did that ahppen?

>http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html
I think my favorite match-up was "Red-Shirted Ensigns vs. Stormtroopers."

Thanks for the tip. Lots of fun items there, though I think many participants wildly underestimated Federation technology. Red shirts carry weapons a little larger than old-style cigarette lighters (type I phasers with type II being even more powerful) which pack enough punch to vaporize a man-sized object, have a wide-field setting which allow it to hit several targets at once (RETURN OF THE ARCHONS) or be set to overload which gives it the explosive force of a heavy artillery round. Imperial blasters are powerful, but it's no contest. Ditto Enterprise vs Death Star, but I won't take up space here explaining why.

Posted by Bill Mulligan at September 16, 2006 12:31 AM

I keep expecting to see trekkies at cons conversing in Tamarian. Perhaps even adding to the rich metaphorical history. "Herman at Creationcon"; "Jeffrey, his virginity unendangered."; "Eugene, alone in his basement."

HA! Priceless, Bill. Priceless. :)

Posted by: Dan Nakagawa at September 15, 2006 08:14 PM

And while we are on the subject of intelligence:

"Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be."

Oh, bravo, Dan. You caught Luigi in a rare gaffe. You must feel like quite the man now.

YOU have a lot of nerve questioning Luigi's intelligence. Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here, bar none. He certainly exhibits far more intelligence than you.

It's easy to make a mistake in a blog posting, by the way. Luigi may have begun by writing "Education and such-and-such...", decided to edit himself, and merely forgot to change the "are" to "is." Luigi is probably too busy to edit his posts as carefully as he might edit, say, a business correspondence.

Dan, you're being a complete and utter PRICK. THIS is why so many people are being "mean" to you. In one of your posts, you told me I had brought your wrath upon myself, as though that wrath meant a damn thing to me. It doesn't. But the fact that you cried like a baby to Peter about how most of us DON'T LIKE YOU A DAMN BIT demonstrates that YOU care about THAT.

Well, Dan, YOU brought THAT upon YOURself.

By the way, folks, when I say that Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here... well, that's a bit like choosing between chocolate ice cream and Rocky Road. They're both so good.

This is a really, really, really good crowd. Trolls like Dan are the exception rather than the rule. Thanks for letting me play in the same sandbox!

PAD's statement up above like Bush makes Quayle(I always thought that in itself was funny, a guy named Bush with a VP named Quayle) look like Aristotle made one really mean-spirited thought go through my head.

Bush makes Quayle's potatoe look like Aristotle.

Rex, man, MAN, you're another one guilty of posting things that I was going to. Great minds think alike, I guess.

PAD's statement up above like Bush makes Quayle(I always thought that in itself was funny, a guy named Bush with a VP named Quayle) look like Aristotle made one really mean-spirited thought go through my head.

Bush makes Quayle's potatoe look like Aristotle.

Rex, man, MAN, you're another one guilty of posting things that I was going to. Great minds think alike, I guess.

B, (if you're still here)

"I find NASCAR boring, wrestling outdated, and country music vapid and possibly evil but none of these things are signs of stupidity. They're signs of that mythical liberal elitism making itself true."

Really? I'm in the center when it comes to politics but lean left a lot of times. Two officers I work with are bed wetting libs on everything except gun control. You know how we kill long, dull, nothing happening shifts? Wrestling trivia. And one of those two guys is a major NASCAR fan.

I know lots of self described libs. Lots of those same people love country music, NASCAR, wrestling and many other things that people on the right keep claiming the "liberal elites" hate. That statement ranked right up there with people claiming that all conservatives hate the arts, culture or PBS. Too broad a brush stroke.

Jerry C, you may have said this before and I just forgot it. Hell, it may be here in this thread and I forgot it! My head is like a steel sieve these days.

Are you a cop?

If so, God Bless You.

Not to far from where I live, a state trooper was murdered. They caught the bastard that killed him, but that won't bring back the trooper.

So, if you are a cop, thanks for your service, and for God's sake, man, stay safe.

Sean Scullion: "Rex, man, MAN, you're another one guilty of posting things that I was going to. Great minds think alike, I guess."

We're using Cerebro on you. :)

"Y'know, Dan, I remember how you said that you showed up here apparently to provide laughs. Just for the record, the only thing you've ever said that I considered remotely funny was the whining e-mail you sent me claiming I'd been censoring you, and how everyone was being mean to you, and how you were packing up and leaving because you could take a hint...when all that was happening was that your posts were being caught in the spam filter.

I laughed at that."

Hmmm, publically called on the carpet for a personal email...

Well, I guess youy told me off, didn't you, big man?

I applaud you on your defeat of such a callous, base villain. Maybe you'll get a story out of it.

"Oh, bravo, Dan. You caught Luigi in a rare gaffe. You must feel like quite the man now.

YOU have a lot of nerve questioning Luigi's intelligence. Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here, bar none. He certainly exhibits far more intelligence than you.

It's easy to make a mistake in a blog posting, by the way. Luigi may have begun by writing "Education and such-and-such...", decided to edit himself, and merely forgot to change the "are" to "is." Luigi is probably too busy to edit his posts as carefully as he might edit, say, a business correspondence.

Dan, you're being a complete and utter PRICK. THIS is why so many people are being "mean" to you. In one of your posts, you told me I had brought your wrath upon myself, as though that wrath meant a damn thing to me. It doesn't. But the fact that you cried like a baby to Peter about how most of us DON'T LIKE YOU A DAMN BIT demonstrates that YOU care about THAT.

Well, Dan, YOU brought THAT upon YOURself."
----------------------------------------
Pardon a mere mortal for even daring to question the Gods of Olympus.

I'll just make my way back down the mountain now....

"I applaud you on your defeat of such a callous, base villain. Maybe you'll get a story out of it."

Awww, but Dan...you're such a funny guy! At least that's what you've been claiming. Certainly you can appreciate the humor, right? Right?

The fact is that at least half a dozen posters have had their messages rejected or been unable to post at various times because (unbeknownst to them) of spam filters, and every single one has written to me and said, basically, "Hey, what's up with this? What did I say that was inflammatory?" Only you, the King of Comedy, flashed his stigmata, complained how ill treated you were, accused me of censorship and then went fetal...and never even bothered to apologize for your accusations when they were proven wrong.

I'm saying that claiming hey, you're just goofing around, while at the same time calling people names and then claiming you're being ill-used when your attitudes cause you to be dismissed out of hand, is not a good mix. What you think of as humor or even expressing a differing opinion comes across as mere petulance. So if people treat you with the same weight they'd give a ten year old banging on kitchen pots to get attention, you'll understand why. Or, more likely, you won't. You'll just feel you're misunderstood and mean old Peter David and his drones beat down someone who disagreed with them. If it's of any consolation, I'm sure you're not alone. Trolls tend to come and go here; the people of real consequence, even those I disagree with, tend to hang around and contribute.

Where you fall in that category is up to you. But you may want to consider dropping the martyr bit. It doesn't really play well.

PAD

Dan Nakagawa: You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth. To me, intelligence is like snowflakes--no two are exactly the same, and to imply that one is of more worth than the others just doesn't make sense. If you don't like someone or something, what's wrong with simply saying 'I don't like _____." Why do people feel that they have to justify it by belittling it?
Luigi Novi: Because this discussion is about how society denigrates intelligence and education as an important quality, not about how we “don’t like” people or use intelligence to measure “worth”. If anything, this discussion has been how others measure the human worth of others—negatively—who are intelligent.

Dan Nakagawa: Luigi, I'm sorry, but that's just misleading---you sound as though you know for a fact that Bush "he got into the schools he attended because of family connections"--you can't prove that and you know it.
Luigi Novi: Um, wrong.

It is well-documented that Bush got into Yale on a “legacy admission”, because he was the son and grandson of an alumnus. (Source: http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/timep.affirm.action.tm/)

Finding a source via Google took me just a few minutes.

Apparently, making an unwarranted assumption without doing some double-checking on it yourself took you none.

But hey, thanks for helping to illustrate the point of this thread so vividly. :-)

Dan Nakagawa: what good are intellectual pursuits like reading if you're not going to use the information that you've read about?
Luigi Novi: I don’t know. Do you know of anyone for whom this description fits?

Even if you could, I would say that education is its own virtue.

Dan Nakagawa: And what does speaking ability have to do with anything?
Luigi Novi: If you want to sequester yourself in a cabin in the woods away from anyone else? Nothing.

But if you want to communicate with the other people on this planet? Lots.

Dan Nakagawa: Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
Luigi Novi: No, that’s your statement, not mine.

Criticism of the denigration of the importance of learning how to communicate properly is not called into question by using the example of someone who barely can speak unaided. Your example, therefore, it not applicable to this thesis.

Dan Nakagawa: And before you go on to call me a troll, yes, yes, I DO know 'what you mean.'
Luigi Novi: Then why ask me such a stupid rhetorical question?

Dan Nakagawa: I simply don't like it...
Luigi Novi: Life’s tough. Wear a cup.

Dan Nakagawa: And while we are on the subject of intelligence:

"Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be."

Education, as it is a topic, takes the singular, not the plural.
Luigi Novi: Thanks for the correction. And as soon as you can illustrate how intelligence and making occasional mistakes are somehow mutually exclusive—if that was indeed your intent—again, let me know.

Everyone here makes mistakes of syntax, grammar or spelling from time to time, even Peter. Would you like us to start keeping tabs on your writings?

Eric: Um, that'd be PAD's…
Luigi Novi: Sorry, I forgot about that comment in Peter’s blog entry, and merely used my browser’s Find feature to look for the words “Gore” and “Kerry.” Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Bill Myers: YOU have a lot of nerve questioning Luigi's intelligence. Luigi is one of the most intelligent posters here, bar none. He certainly exhibits far more intelligence than you.
Luigi Novi: Stop it. You’re making me blush. :-)

Posted by: Dan Nakagawa at September 16, 2006 09:09 AM

Pardon a mere mortal for even daring to question the Gods of Olympus.

I'll just make my way back down the mountain now....

Dan, I'm going to echo what Peter has already said.

Now that you've failed to cow us with your "scary intellect" (thanks, Mulligan, for that phrase -- I like it), you're going to play for sympathy, I take it.

GROW the FUCK UP, Dan.

We are human beings with FEELINGS. You came in here and insulted us. You did your best to alienate most of the people here, and now you're SURPRISED when your efforts to alienate people have actually, y'know, ALIENATED PEOPLE?

As Bill Mulligan told you, just saying something isn't enough to make it so. We have not mistreated you, and no matter how many times you say it, it won't become true. YOU have in fact mistreated US.

Look, Dan, I used to be as socially retarded as you are now. I used to act familiar with people when I hadn't earned the right. Difference between you and I is that I learned my lesson.

The people here have given you second chances. Hell, even after you insulted me worse than you insulted anyone else here, even after you LIED about me, I tried to reach out to you again. Others have done the same. And you keep making the same stupid fucking mistakes.

You don't want to change. I get that. The problem is, the world is not obligated to accommodate you. If you want to keep doing the same stupid things over and over again, fine. But quit whining about the inevitable consequences.

Even after all of this, Danny, I think I speak for more people than just myself when I say we would still be willing to give you another chance. Just STOP ACTING LIKE A PRICK. It won't cost you a goddamn thing, and you'll gain more than you realize.

But if you're so scared of changing, so stubbornly unable to admit that you just may be wrong sometimes just as every human being is sometimes wrong, well, fine. Take a walk if you wish.

But you brought this on yourself. And the ONLY person who has been acting with arrogance is YOU.

Posted by: Dan Nakagawa at September 16, 2006 09:09 AM

Pardon a mere mortal for even daring to question the Gods of Olympus.

I'll just make my way back down the mountain now....

Dan, I'm going to echo what Peter has already said.

Now that you've failed to cow us with your "scary intellect" (thanks, Mulligan, for that phrase -- I like it), you're going to play for sympathy, I take it.

Grow up, Dan.

We are human beings with feelings. You came in here and insulted us. You did your best to alienate most of the people here, and now you're surprised when your efforts to alienate people have actually, y'know, alienated people?

As Bill Mulligan told you, just saying something isn't enough to make it so. We have not mistreated you, and no matter how many times you say it, it won't become true. You have in fact mistreated us.

Look, Dan, I used to be as socially awkward as you are now. I used to act familiar with people when I hadn't earned the right. Difference between you and I is that I learned my lesson.

The people here have given you second chances. Hell, even after you insulted me worse than you insulted anyone else here, even after you lied about me, I tried to reach out to you again. Others have done the same. And you keep making the same stupid mistakes.

You don't want to change. I get that. The problem is, the world is not obligated to accommodate you. If you want to keep doing the same stupid things over and over again, fine. But quit whining about the inevitable consequences.

Even after all of this, Danny, I think I speak for more people than just myself when I say we would still be willing to give you another chance. Just stop acting like a prick. It won't cost you a goddamn thing, and you'll gain more than you realize.

But if you're so scared of changing, so stubbornly unable to admit that you just may be wrong sometimes just as every human being is sometimes wrong, well, fine. Take a walk if you wish.

But you brought this on yourself. And the only person who has been acting with arrogance is you.

I know lots of self described libs. Lots of those same people love country music, NASCAR, wrestling and many other things that people on the right keep claiming the "liberal elites" hate. That statement ranked right up there with people claiming that all conservatives hate the arts, culture or PBS. Too broad a brush stroke.

Two friends of mine, who are WAYYYY to the left of me, hell, probably to the left of PAD, are HUGE racing fans. Looks like cars going in a circle to me but when they describe it I wish I had the same love for it. That's the way things are. I knew someone who made most Mensa members look like Nancy Pelosi and she collected porcelin frogs. And you never wanted to get her started on porcelin frogs.

As for wrestling...to paraphrase William Gaines, it would be just as difficult to explain the appeal of pro-wrestling to those who hate it as it would be to explain the sublimity of love to a frigid old maid.

“I am twice the man you are, and have half the brain!” - Sid Vicious

Bill Mulligan,

You know you're going to have people clawing their brains out because they can't remember where that quote is in any of The Sex Pistols' work.

:)

Bill Myers,

Thanks for the kind words and concern.

Dan,

Chill out, take stock, stop digging the hole deeper and start over. Your family seems to have had a hell of a time and you seem to have learned a few things from that and developed a POV that some