PeterDavid.net

Diangerous Liasons and Cruel Intentions come to mind. They certainly have comedic moments. As to others? I'll get back to you.

It's hard to do a comedy in which the party with historical societal power (aka The Default, aka The Guy) harasses the party which is historically powerless societally (aka The Other, aka The Gal), because harassment, oppression, etc. are serious issues and are perpetuated, in the vast majority of cases, by those with power over those without. The idea of the oppressed turning the tables on the oppressors is part of successful satire, particularly when it ties in with power-fantasy wish fulfillment.

1Wasn't there a John Cusack movie with MEg Ryan where they were co-stalking their exes? And Shooting Elizabeth kind of fits the bill if I remember it correctly... granted, it's been a while.
Don't the movies where it's a guy stalking a girl usually end up with the guy falling for that great friend who has been right there with him the whole time? That "plot" always seemed more popular. Wehreas when the girl chased the guy, the girl usually GOT the guy and THAT was the big resolution.

I don't know if it was successful, but "Saving Silverman" had that precise theme.

What about Hollywood Movie Starlet kidnapped by male fan and his cult followers? Cecil B Demented was Melanie Griffith's best film.

my leg was hurting so I was doped up on Vicodin

Ah, that explains why you kept muttering about "Differential plots" and called Joe Quesada "Cuddy".

Of course it *could* be that people were up in arms that SUPERMAN was "stalking" Lois, while no one cares that some made-up one-hit wonder superheroine would be doing the same in the movie she was created for. OR, perhaps, the overarching thematic elements of each movie played into people's feelings as to whether the usage of powers was appropriate or not. If it were a spoof of superhero movies (I hear one's coming up) and a male superheo was using his powers in the same way as G-Girl, I'm sure no one would have any problem with it.

There was also the Ellen Degeneres movie "Mr. Wrong" which played a guy stalking a girl as a comedy. It was the most unintentionally creepy movie I've seen in a long, long time.

I think the big thing about Superman Returns was that it was Superman. I didn't have a problem with it personally because I thought it was handled well and I think it was to be assumed that his looking in on her wasn't something he was obsessed with doing but rather just something he had done once or twice to make sure she was ok and to see if she really was over him. Also remember Superman at the end leaves things the way he finds them. If he had tried to take out Richard White that would've been something else altogether.

Not sure about any comedies where a guy stalks a girl though. "Better Off Dead" certainly had a bit of it though.

Michael

You left out ex-wives going after ex-husbands: (First Wives Club), and secretaries going after their sexist boss (9 To 5).

There's Something About Mary

It's a comedy when the super powerful woman stalks the guy? Of course.

It's also funny when the little dog is bossing around the big dog in the cartoon. It's funny when the cat gets the crap beaten out of him by the mouse or the tweaty bird. It's also funny when Dr. Doom gets beaten by Squirrel Girl.

Reversal of status adds to the comedy. Nothing odd there.

The movie In the Company of Men, I think.

In the Company of Men was NOT a comedy. Sure, there was a lot of humor in it, but the actual plot was anything but comedic.

There was also the Ellen Degeneres movie "Mr. Wrong" which played a guy stalking a girl as a comedy.

Or as all of in the know called it, "Mr. Wrong Gender"

The movie In the Company of Men, I think.

Yikes! Worst First Date Movie Ever!

You could sort of argue that 50 First Dates is a funny stalking movie but it works because the "stalker" isn't really stalking and he's a nice guy. Conversely, Super Ex-Girlfriend doesn't work for me because the Uma character is so unlikeable.

A funnier movie might have used the premise but had Uma using her superhero character to help get her alter ego laid. I know, I know--it's been used by TV Funhouse for Wonder Man. Still funny though.

There was also an imaginary story once where Supergirl lost her memory, married Jimmy Olsen, regained her memory and decided to trick Jimmy into falling in love with her Supergirl identity--possibly the worst plan ever cincieved by ahuman in a non-vegetative state. It's my favorite Jimmy Olsen story EVER.

there's a short film about superman being dumped by lois, and he talks about flying by her house and using calling her all the time. it was actually pretty funny. i think it's all about how you deliver it. sure, the concept sounds scary, but if it's done right, it can be funny. especially if the icon is someone like the super-boyscout superman.

here's the URL... it's called "Losing Lois Lane".

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2658724

I seem to recall the same thing happening when Felicity premiered. IIRC, a TV Guide reviewer commented that if a male character did what Felicity did---moving to New York to pursue a guy and go to the same school as he did--that he'd be called a stalker, and a reader wrote in to say that it's either stalking or it's not, regardless of gender, and that if it were stalking if she were male, then it was stalking for a female as well.

I was going to mention "There's Something About Mary" but it seems I was too slow. In that film, Cameron diaz got stalked not by a guy but by half a dozen.

But I get the point PAD tries to make, I've felt the same everytime an ad aimed at a female target would portray men as clueless idiots. Sure, its fun and help sell whatever they try to sell, but I remember some campaigns that would have fotten people lay off if genders were reversed.

Same people in the media shaking their fists in anger at any demeaning portray of "women" grin and nod when it is "men" who get bashed.

For that matter, men getting punched, kicked, shot, etc in the testicles ios considered high comedy. Imagine something remotely like that performed on women and played for laughs.

Just saw Miami Vice. Nicely done, though I think many will find it needlessly long. Great cinematography, you can't take you eyes off the screen.

Personally, I didn't have any problem with Superman stalking Lois. It broght me back to pre-Crisis days.

The movie In the Company of Men, I think.

Yikes! Worst First Date Movie Ever!

No, that would be AUDITION.

Trust me.

Funny you should mention "My Super Ex-Girlfriend," because I just got back from seeing it with my wife. I also found some of the things you mentioned go through my mind, and I wonder if Wanda Sykes' sexual harrassment crusade subplot -- addressed twice in the film (making it a veritable footstomper from a scriptwriter's point of view) -- was a subtle nod to the apparent double standard.

I mean, look at the different gender-based reactions by society regarding real-world scenarios. For example, if a male teacher sleeps with one of his 16-year-old female students, there is considerably more outrage and anger than when a female teacher sleeps with one of her 16-year-old male students. By rights, one would expect both crimes to be equally appalling to society at large -- but that does not seem to be the case.

Peter David:
You can do a comedy with a girl going after a guy (Super-Ex). You can do a comedy about a group of girls going after a guy (John Tucker Must Die). You can even do a comedy about a girl going after another girl or group of girls (Bad Girls). But a guy going after a girl who done him wrong? *Is* there a comedy--at least a successful one--ever made on that theme?

Closest thing I can think of is the season 2 episode of Buffy when Cordelia dumps Xander. Granted, he never tries to, ya know, inflict bodily harm on her, but he did nearly get both of them killed.

Elayne Riggs:
It's hard to do a comedy in which the party with historical societal power (aka The Default, aka The Guy) harasses the party which is historically powerless societally (aka The Other, aka The Gal), because harassment, oppression, etc. are serious issues and are perpetuated, in the vast majority of cases, by those with power over those without. The idea of the oppressed turning the tables on the oppressors is part of successful satire, particularly when it ties in with power-fantasy wish fulfillment.

I agree. Unfortunately it only goes to show just how "equal" the sexes are right now. I guess one sure sign that they are equal will be when a man harrassing a women is just as funny as a woman harrassing a man. Which, when all is said and done, probably won't end up very amusing for either side. (You see what equality does? It kills the funny.)

Posted by R. Maheras

For example, if a male teacher sleeps with one of his 16-year-old female students, there is considerably more outrage and anger than when a female teacher sleeps with one of her 16-year-old male students. By rights, one would expect both crimes to be equally appalling to society at large -- but that does not seem to be the case.

I dunno -- we've got a female teacher somewhere in Georgia (i think; not far away if not) who just started her second round of prison time for messing with a teenage boy -- afyer she got out the first time, she violated the conditions of her parole that she have no contact with him (at least until he was legally an adult, anyway).

Bingo. Back Inside.

But consider the reverse -- movies with female leads should be either "chick flicks" or comedies -- films that would clearly carry no gender-political message are suddenly seen as Feminist Statements if they star women.

Consider Thelma and Louise (one of my favourite films, BTW) -- not a stalker film, just a reversal of the standard road picture format (and blowing away a redneck rapist is relatively tame compared to some of the things that have launched road picture plots with male stars), but since it's not claerly a comedy -- "Male bashing!"

The movie In the Company of Men, I think.

Yikes! Worst First Date Movie Ever!

No, that would be AUDITION.

Trust me.

Sasha makes an excellent point.

Actually, one should avoid ever taking a date to a Takashi Miike movie unless one is very very very sure of said date's tastes. Ok, maybe Zebraman. Maybe.

For the same reason former teacher Mary Kay Letorneau and former student Vili Fualaau were able to have fawning wedding coverage by People magazine and Entertainment Tonight (presumably for large dollars) rather than be ostracized, attacked, or vilified as "Mark Letorneau" and "Violet" Fualaau would have been, had the genders been reversed.

I've always said that if the roles were reversed, "My Best Friend's Wedding" would have been a stalker movie on the Lifetime Network.

Hmmm - male stalks female comedies... i knew there was something knocking on my skull (nice rolling echo effect, too) -- His Girl Friday could be considered one, in some ways.

Mel Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade During DUI Arrest

Original link.

TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a rampage when he was arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving, hurling religious epithets. TMZ has also learned that the Los Angeles County Sheriff's department had the initial report doctored to keep the real story under wraps.

The report says Gibson launched into a barrage of anti-Semitic statements: "F*****g Jews... The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." Gibson then asked the Deputy, "Are you a Jew?"

Sources say the sergeant on duty felt the report was too "inflammatory." A lieutenant and captain then got involved and calls were made to Sheriff's headquarters. Sources say the Deputy was told Gibson's comments would incite a lot of "Jewish hatred," that the situation in Israel was "way too inflammatory." It was mentioned several times that Gibson, who wrote, directed, and produced 2004's "The Passion of the Christ," had incited "anti-Jewish sentiment" and "For a drunk driving arrest, is this really worth all that?"

"For the same reason former teacher Mary Kay Letorneau and former student Vili Fualaau were able to have fawning wedding coverage by People magazine and Entertainment Tonight (presumably for large dollars) rather than be ostracized, attacked, or vilified as "Mark Letorneau" and "Violet" Fualaau would have been, had the genders been reversed."

It seemed to me that Mary Kay Letorneau WAS vilified, rather severely, when that story first broke. On the other hand, there's Loretta Lynn, who was married at the age of 13 to a much older man, and that was turned into a sweet love story in Coal Miner's Daughter.

It's always seemed to me that the level of outrage over adults having sex with minors has less to do with the respective genders of the paricipants, and more to do with their marital status. If they get married first, it's okay, but if they don't, it's rape (which has never made sense to me).

Worst first date movies...

"Boys dont cry"

There's Something about Mary.

Mike Weber -
Good point re. His Girl Friday. And with the remake "Switching Channels" and its male co-star Christopher Reeve we even get a kind of superhero angle ;-)
Both those films actually can be described as "My Best Friend's Wedding" in reverse. Come to think of it, a lot of those comedies involving a wrecked wedding may qualify, e. g. "The Philadelphia Story" (as a musical: "High Society"). BTW, remember what Cary Grant did to Katherine Hepburn in the opening scene of that film? (One aspect that I sometimes find a little creepy about that film is that Tracey Samantha is made out to be a bad gal for failing to be accepting of her father's philandering).

In general I am not sure if there is that much of a taboo on males "harmlessly" stalking women. It is treated as a kind of lovable manifestation of the shyness of Marty's dad as a teenager in "Back to the Future" and as "sweet" in "Gregory's Girl". John Cusack stalks Catherine Zeta-Jones in "America's Sweethearts" but she's the unsympathetic one (don't know if that film will turn out more or less successful than My Super Ex-Girlfriend).

Successful comedy with male going after female? Dare I say "The Taming of the Shrew"? Or more recently, "The Quiet Man" and "Overboard"?

What about The Temp and Single White Female? Didn't those movies feature females stalking and/or manipulating males (only one scene in the case of the latter)?

I always thought John Cusack was sort of stalky in Say Anything, but obviously I'm in the minority on that.

There's a difference between "pining away for" and the kind of serious stalking that happened in My Super Ex-Girlfriend. A lot of the examples here cite comedies where the guy is obsessed, but he's still trying to get the girl (Something About Mary). My Super Ex-Girlfriend featured a woman who wasn't doing really creepy things to get closer to the object of her affection, she was scorned and she took very drastic measures to get revenge.

The only movie I can think of that's similar -- a comedy where a man seeks revenge upon a woman -- is Saving Silverman. I don't know how successful that movie was, but I really liked it.

There's a movie coming out, John Tucker Must Die, where a group of girls intricatly plot their revenge on an unfaithful boyfriend. There's no converse to that kind of movie.

Well, in "America's Sweethearts" one scene involves John Cusack on a big motorcycle crashing through the front window of a restaurant onto the table where Catherine Zeta-Jones and her new boyfriend (Hank Azaria) are having dinner, endangering both their lives. It is ultimately rationalized by saying that he went crazy, but one has to sympathize with the complaint of CZ-J's character that no one cares that he tried to kill her. The movie is clearly skewed in favor of Cusack's character.

Not having seen "My Super Ex-Girlfriend", I also wonder if this movie is setting up the audience to laugh with or at Uma Thurman's character. In quite a few cases, the vindictive ex-girlfriend out for a guy's guts is portrayed as funny because of her ineffectuality (e.g. Carrie Fisher's character in "The Blues Brothers").

Another possible aspect: men are expected to act rationally, while women are still frequently expected to be irrational, let their emotions run riot, go into hysterics even. So for many people would be much more likely to expect a story in which a rejected man goes homicidically nuts as a drama or tragedy, while in the case of a rejected girlfriend they would regard it as so "normal" that it can be used as comedy more often than not.

But having a man go after a woman can be used for comedy, e.g. Danny DeVito trying to do in his wife in "Ruthless People", or Michael Palin going after an inoffensive old lady in "A Fish Called Wanda".

Speaking of "A Fish Called Wanda", that also featured Kevin Kline as an insanely jealous wronged boyfriend in violent stalking mode, but then he took his anger out mostly on Archie (John Cleese), not Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis). Which makes me wonder if one of the reasons why we don't see more ex-boyfriends going after ex-girlfriends in comedies isn't because the expected thing would be for him to go after her new boyfriend...

For a comedy movie, where husband is trying to kill wife, how about 'Ruthless People'? I'm probably showing may age for remembering that one.

Then again, I can remember when running two miles after school so as to walk up and down the street where a girl you fancied lived, in the vague adolescent hope of seeing her on her way home, was considered romantic...

Go figure...

Cheers.

In quite a few cases, the vindictive ex-girlfriend out for a guy's guts is portrayed as funny because of her ineffectuality (e.g. Carrie Fisher's character in "The Blues Brothers").

Actually, I considered it funny for how utter over the top it was. (A *flamethrower*? Classic!)

Cable Guy was a comedy about a guy stalking another guy...

Of course, it bombed at the box office, so it may not be the best example.

It's funny, but I had this same discussion about MY SUPER EX-GIRLFRIEND with a female friend of mine. I believe my exact words were, "If there's a movie where a man is terrorized by a physically stronger woman who stalks him, pursues him, and threatens his life, it's a comedy. If a movie haas a physically superior man doing all that to a woman it's a drama -- or, if done cheaply enough, a Lifetime Original Movie."

With I'd gotten here sooner -- I thought of MR. WRONG as one of the few "man threatens woman" comedies. Ah well. It's interesting that of the many "examples" given above, where a woman is threatened by a man, they're either not comedies (all movies have some comic elements, but that doesn't make them comedies) or they don't involve actual threats (big difference between John Cusack standing outside his ex's room with a boombox and hanging your ex upside-down by a fire hose from the top of the Statue of Liberty.)

Also, in "Fish Called Wanda" Michael Palin's character repeatedly attempts to assassinate an innocent old woman and the results (and eventual killing) are played for laughs.

In one episode of the TV show "Firefly" The main character tracks down, pulls a gun on, and punches out a women who, "done him wrong."

In "Revenge of the Nerds" a fraternity gets back at a sorority by planting hidden video cameras throught their house, spying on them in various states of undress, and selling nude pictures of them. Not violent, but definately stalking.

As for reactions to "Superman Returns" vs. "My Super Ex-girlfriend" one was played as straight action drama, and while I haven't seen the other, it seems to be played as a live action cartoon. Rather like comparing "Naked Gun" to "Hill street blues."

Also, thought I didn't see "Disclosure" the plot was Demi Moore's character harrasses/stalks a man, and it wasn't played for laughs. I beleive that it was a success.

Lastly, I'll suggest that there is a "real world" factor aspect. How many times have you read in the paper about a woman being violently murdered by a stalker (usually she has a restraining order which does no good) versus the reverse. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but it seems to be rarer.

Oh,and this probably doesn't count because it was a parody of horror movies, but the First "Scary Movie" was about killers stalking (mostly) women and it was played for laughs.

And again, I didn't see it but "Mr. and Mrs. Smith" may have worked because it was "man and woman trying to kill each other."

Lastly, does "Fargo" count? That had a woman being kidnapped and murdered, and it was mostly played for laughs.

Robin Williams stalked his family in Mrs Doubtfire as much as Superman stalked Lois and Richard and Jason in Superman Returns, and it was a successful comedy.

Prizzi's Honor? Didn't that get oscar nominations?

Robin Williams stalked his family in Mrs Doubtfire as much as Superman stalked Lois and Richard and Jason in Superman Returns, and it was a successful comedy.

I was going to so that you were crazy for comparing Superman Returns to a man impersonating someone else to be close to his family... except that Superman impersonating Clark Kent isn't too far off base.

Superman as a stalker is totally bogus. Not withstanding the fact that the scene is a blatant plot device for emotional momentum, the man sees and hears everything, either from the upper atmosphere or outside a house. Lois was talking about him, his ears were burning, and he listened in. Big Brother (in more senses than one)? Maybe. Stalker? Not at all.

Revenge of the Nerds was a great citation for comedies where men get revenge on women. It's older, but it fits.

The War of the Roses was a comedy where a seperating couple antagonized each other.

Lastly, I'll suggest that there is a "real world" factor aspect. How many times have you read in the paper about a woman being violently murdered by a stalker (usually she has a restraining order which does no good) versus the reverse. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but it seems to be rarer.

I think you're correct though I suspect the number of non-murdering female stalkers is pretty high in real life. Of course, they often stalk other women--a Lifetime TV staple is the one where the crazy ex-girlfriend/wife/mother of the heroine's new husband causes all manner of trouble.

"It seemed to me that Mary Kay Letorneau WAS vilified, rather severely, when that story first broke. "

Yes she was. I was clearly referring to the subsequent wedding a few years later which received the "fawning coverage".

Posted by JamesLynch

hanging your ex upside-down by a fire hose from the top of the Statue of Liberty.

Ummm, that was Professor Bedlam

BTW, Peter -- i just used you as an example of a point i was trying top make in a rec.arts.sf.fandom discussion of Brroke McEldowney's strips "9 Chickweed Lane" and "Pibgorn"...

I just remembered a Superman-as-stalker joke from before the movie. It was a stand up comic on Comedy Central talking about what it would be like to be the guy who dates Lois *after* Superman.

Basically the jokes revolved around getting intimate with Lois when a drunk Superman shows up at the door. It was pretty damn funny.

This question about this movie did occur to me, when I thought "Why did they have to make a FEMALE hero the crazy, possibly homicidal, stalker ex?" Then I realized - no, they COULDN"T do it the other way around.

If both had super-powers - yeah. Actually - duh - Buffy. Though she and Spike wasn't a comdedic thing (well, for the most part; at least not by the time that they were really hitting each other)... If both are normal people, and both assulting each other - well, it has been done, as mentioned above, with "War of the Roses" - though, how enjoyable that thing was depends on the viewer... ("Mr. and Mrs. Smith" did work, pretty much - it was actually kind of female-positive, that she seemed equally able of kicking his ass. But, unlike "Super Ex-GF", it was a mutual attacking, and not ultimately supposed to be, unlike "War", a comedy.) POSSIBLY if the male super-hero was established as being ineffectual and incompetent, you might be able to make a watchable stalker comedy. But if he were as powerful as Uma's character appears to be in this movie? (Haven't seen it; I thought it had potential at the time I saw the initial preview, but I've gotten more unsure of it as I've seen the direction they chose to take with the "my ex-girlfriend is a super-heroine" idea.) Flying, smashing walls, shooting things at his all-too-human ex-girlfriend, etc? I'm not sure that that would ever be workable. (And it may say something about the sexism still in our society that doing this to a man apparently seems so absurd that it can be done as a comedy.)

1
spoilers for the end of My Super Ex-girlfriend.

Technically speaking, this movie has both, girl stalking guy and guy stalking girl. Professor Bedlam was stalking and trying to hurt G Girl/Jenny.

I think for it to work the opposite.. the guys involved have to be clumsy oafs like in "Saving Silverman" or have guys with comical bad luck, like "There's Something about Mary."

I think the woman has to be the stronger character for it to work.

Now I haven't seen this movie.. but it seems to me that the message is that women can't handle having super-powers without letting their feelings taking control. You never saw Supergirl try and beat up her ex-boyfriends (except on the occasions where they did end up to be super-villains.. or.. colorful kryptonite was involved)

Now I haven't seen this movie.. but it seems to me that the message is that women can't handle having super-powers without letting their feelings taking control."

What? That's a rediculously huge leap from what's shown in the commercials.

No, guys. The Worst First Date Movie ever: "Looking for Mr. Goodbar."

I know, because it was the first movie to which I took my ex-girlfriend. Like the Diane Keaton character in the movie, she was a teacher of little backwards kids (Title 1 remedial reading in her case), and I had to apologize myself all over the place. "Of course, I didn't associate that coke-snorting, cheap-affair-having, near suicidal character with you," I said.

Funny thing was, she turned out to be a substance abuser (of alcohol), near suicidal when driving and an abusive controller. So maybe I should have paid closer attention to the movie.

George Carlin brilliantly observed that most comedy comes not from the topic, but from the humerous exaggeration of that topic. An incredibly depressing or serious topic can be made funny, depending on the spin: murder (most black comedies), nuclear war (DR. STRANGELOVE), racism (BLAZING SADDLES), rape (at least two good jokes on this in CLERKS), child molestation (HAPPINESS), etc. So, what's a movie where women (yes, plural) are threatened with bodily harm/death and it's a comedy?

THROW MOMMA FROM THE TRAIN.

It's been a while since I saw this, but here's what I recall. Billy Crystal is having problems with his ex-wife (played by Kate "Captain Janeway" Mulgrew) and Danny DeVito hates his domineering mother. DeVito sees STRANGERS ON A TRAIN when Crystal suggests seeing it (to improve DeVito's writing) but DeVito thinks it means he should kill Crystal's wife and Crystal should kill his mother. SO we now have two women in mortal peril from the men who feel they've been wronged.

So what happens? DeVito fails miserably at killing Mulgrew (though as he's moving to push her overboard, he sees her shapely butt and cups his hands) and DeVito's mother is such a powerhouse that Crystal gets his butt consistently handed to him. It's a funny movie, no one gets killed, and in the end it all works out. But it does count as a comedy about, to paraphrase PAD's origina thought, guys going after girls who done them wrong.

Posted by JamesLynch

George Carlin brilliantly observed that most comedy comes not from the topic, but from the humerous exaggeration of that topic. An incredibly depressing or serious topic can be made funny, depending on the spin

Kathleen may well have been around in the Old Days when i did what amounts to a stand-up routine describing how my right arm was (literally) shredded like hamburger when i went splat in a bicycle accident.

As a matter of fact, at a WorldCon somewhere or other, i was talking about it, and one of the women in the group asked me if i did or had considered doing standup. When i asked why, she said that she was an Emergency Room nurse in her home city, and, even though she could perfectly visualise the shape i must have been in, she was still laughing aloud...

Aside from the topic, Uma Thurman would make just the best ever SUPERGIRL. As I watched the film, I couldn't help but visualize the G-Girl outfit as a Supergirl outfit. Does doing this film blow that chance for her? What a shame....

You can do a comedy with a girl going after a guy (Super-Ex). You can do a comedy about a group of girls going after a guy (John Tucker Must Die). You can even do a comedy about a girl going after another girl or group of girls (Bad Girls). But a guy going after a girl who done him wrong? *Is* there a comedy--at least a successful one--ever made on that theme?

PAD

Oh, there will be. Just wait until some big studio finally options the rights to my life's story.

--Russ

It's been a while since I saw it, but don't Melanie Griffith and Harrison Ford join forces against Sigourney Weaver in "Working Girl" (and Ford is Weaver's (ex-)boyfriend in that film)?

Mel Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade During DUI Arrest ... etc. etc.

Yeah, because that has a hellova of a lot to do with "My Super Ex-Girlfriend".

I mock your attempt at posting! Ha ha!

No, the all-time worst date movie is WORKING GIRLS, an indie by a director called Lizzie Borden.

I don't think you can include dark comedies in this list. The whole point of dark comedies is to push the boundries of what is acceptable to laugh at. My Super Ex-Girlfriend is being presented as light fun, not cutting and dark humor or even as satire.

Jon wrote (at July 29, 2006 08:41 PM)

In one episode of the TV show "Firefly" The main character tracks down, pulls a gun on, and punches out a women who, "done him wrong."

"Done him wrong", Jon? You sure you're not stretching it a bit? Nevermind that the scene in question is not one played for laughs (it's simply a bit of closure to that particular Saffron story, and serves to explain how they get the shuttle back). You make it sound like they were in a relationship and she simply left or betrayed him, which is a bit different from forcing him into a(n entirely fake) marriage, just so that she could disable his ship, (attempt to) kill him and his crew, and then steal one of only two shuttles on the ship.

Keep in mind that Saffron (one of my favorite characters from Firefly) was an extremely capable cold-blooded killer, one of the few characters who truly came across as being as devious (and possibly more so) than Mal himself. To remove that context and simply label Mal's actions as "The main character track[ing] down, pull[ing] a gun on, and punch[ing] out a women who, 'done him wrong'" is more than a bit sexist (especially because if it'd been a man who'd done the things she did, very few people would even have batted an eye).

PAD, it's interesting you allude to FATAL ATTRACTION because a common theory about that film is that women identify with Close's character and like that she's *sticking* it to the adulterous jerk -- until she goes after his family. That's when she crosses a line.

Comedy/Tragedy is often about lines being crossed. THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY is a comedy in which three men are stalking a woman yet it manages to work as a comedy.

I think you can include dark comedies in the list, Peter David's original post did not exclude black comedies, dark comedies, cutting humor or satire. Also "dark comedy" to some extent is in the eye of the beholder, for some people a comedy involving reckless endangerment of another person's life would by definition be a dark one.

Matthew Broderick and Meg Ryan work together as stalkers to break up the relationship started by their ex-s in ADDICTED TO LOVE.

I'll have to take PAD's word for it (i.e. good movie; or, rather, one he liked, maybe), but there is no way I'm going to see it. The previews just leave me with a real bad taste in my mouth. "I knew you'd come back to me. That's why I didn't kill you."

[knock, knock]Hello? Hollywood? SuperHERO(INE)!! Morals, ethics, truth, justice... all that!!

You want a comedy with a jilted ex- who's also a superhero(ine); fine. But there's plenty of gold to be mined without disregarding what truly makes a hero heroic.

Or, y'know, perhaps I'm just too old-fashioned for my own good...

I might have you all topped for Bad First-Date Movie.

I took a first date to see Dead Ringers under the auspices that Jeremy Irons' performance was not to be missed. On the way home, not only did my date offer her opinions as to what my enjoying that movie had to say about my personality and the value I must place on women in general, she also listed multiple reasons as to why she would not be seeing me again socially.

It was quite the ride home.

Sounds like you dodged a bullet there, Kevin.

"[knock, knock]Hello? Hollywood? SuperHERO(INE)!! Morals, ethics, truth, justice... all that!!"

Well, that's because the movie is part of two genres, superheroes and romantic comedies. Even though you're right that it is extreme for a superhero, it's perfectly in line for a romantic comedy. Look at How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days. That's a movie about two people who lie to each other and treat each other like crap until they fall in love forever. A lot of romantic comedies are about over-the-top people doing bad things.

There are probably a lot people who agree with you, Yogzilla. The movie is doing badly at the box office, and one of the reasons I've seen put forward is the combination of genres. Some people like superhero movies, some like romantic comedies, but not enough people want to see a combination of the two.

I think another problem is the Luke Wilson character. In the commercials all you see is G-Girl acting nuts. She may be the main character, but it seems like the guy is the protagonist. He's the one who has to survive her, he's the one who has the super ex-girlfriend. So what do we see him doing in the commercials? Not much. There's nothing to make you think you'll go to the movie and see him being an interesting character.

From a financial point of view, this movie about a stalker girl isn't very successful.

Ok, I haven't seen Super Ex....like most of America...going by the commericals, the guy isn't a creep, though...he breaks up with Uma cuz it doesn't work out.

In most of the examples I'm seeing of the Male being the "stalker", it's ignoring that the woman is cast in a negative light.

American Sweethearts...Catharine Zeta Jones is an awful #@$!@ in the movie. Not caring about anyone other than herself.

Serentity...Robin already pointed out that Safron was the all out villain of the episode.

Even Revenge Of The Nerds...to a large extent. the sorority girls aren't innocent victems, but largely getting their cumupance for ridiculing the nerds.

As for Super Ex-Girlfriend...hmmm didn't know Eddie Izzard is in it...and he's awesome..but then again, the last movie he was in that started Uma Thurman was The Avengers....

Maybe that's a good way to check out if she's The One--take her to an entirely innapropritate movie and see if she reacts well.

Then again, if it's AUDITION and she wants to see you again...maybe you should run. Far.

For your protection, more bad date movies: Once were warriors, Boxing Helena, I Spit On Your Grave, Bad Lieutenant, Last House on The Left, Cannibal Holocaust, The Cook the Thief His Wife & Her Lover, Salo, Eraserhead...

One of those was actually a first date movie for me. Fortunately she was more messed up than I was.

I had a bad date movie. I took a girl to see "Rising Sun". Afterwards she kept asking, "Why did they have to show that scene of the naked girl being strangled to death over and over again?" I was very glad that wasn't our first date.

Emilio Estevez's role in St. Elmos Fire comes to mind. He was comic relief, and indisputably a stalker.

This isn't a film, but in an early Bill Willingham Elementals comic, the comic relief bad guy Ratman is stalking Fathom.

The outcomes in the movie and the comic are remarkably similiar.

And both characters are treated with some degree of sympathy, at least that's how it appeared to me.

The movie doesn't turn me off because she's a superhero. It turns me off because she's a woman, or, more precisely, that particular woman: an over-the-top, needy, clingy psycho that I would never want to spend 90-120 minutes with.

And just because she's a superhero, it doesn't mean she's a superHERO. So many superhero fans tend to emphasize the "hero" over the "super," as though they only like the genre because it's about heroes. But just about every work of fiction has a hero in one form or another. There are heroes in real life. I like superheroes because they're SUPER, regardless of their stance on truth, justice, and so forth.

Anyway, I guess my point is that objecting to a superheroine in a comedic movie (one that's not even based on a comic book) threatening to kill someone, as though "hero" is a rigidly defined word denoting an unwavering adherence to a strict moral code, seems rather silly. Just because she has superpowers and (presumably) saves lives, it doesn't mean she has to be a moral person.

PAD,

I pointed out this gender inequity way back in the mid-1990s when you had a bulletin board on GEnie. (There's blast from the past.)

The subject at that time was Lorena Bobbett who quite famously cut off her husband's penis. This act was the source of many jokes on the late night television shows and I pointed out that if the he had mutilated her, nobody would dare make any jokes.

George

I don't think I've ever taken a woman to a movie on a first date. I usually would invite them out for coffee or lunch or something non-threatening. And I usually would try to avoid being her source of transportation to and from said date, just in case things went sour and I needed to climb out the bathroom window.

On one of my first dates with my current girlfriend (five years and still going strong, thanks for asking even though you actually didn't), we went to see "The Mummy Returns." I later learned from her that she was only acting scared during certain scenes so she'd have an excuse to hold my arm. I, of course, was completely oblivious.

Bill Mulligan: "For your protection, more bad date movies: Once were warriors, Boxing Helena, I Spit On Your Grave, Bad Lieutenant, Last House on The Left, Cannibal Holocaust, The Cook the Thief His Wife & Her Lover, Salo, Eraserhead..."

I saw "The Cook, the Thief, His Wife, Her Lover" in college and I remember thinking, "What the HELL was THAT all about???" I mean, that movie accomplished the impossible: it made nudity and sex boring!

Bill Mulligan: "Fortunately she was more messed up than I was."

If that's true, then thank God you escaped with your life!

Posted by Robert Fuller

The movie doesn't turn me off because she's a superhero. It turns me off because she's a woman, or, more precisely, that particular woman: an over-the-top, needy, clingy psycho that I would never want to spend 90-120 minutes with.

An old, crude joke: Q: What's the difference between a toilet and a co-dependent? A: The toilet doesn't follow you around when you're not using it.

While i greatly enjoyed the film -- rather more thab i did Superman Returns, in retrospect (SR is like Lenin's Tomg -- a beautiful seting for True Believers to come and gaze upon the mummified remains of one once great...) -- about a third fof the way in, i began wondering "How did the screenwriter ever meet ---?" (Again, referring to old Atlanta days, Kathleen may be able to guess who "___" is; seems at first acquaintance a happy, cheerful, cute girl, who, as you become more and more acquainted with, turns out to be more and more messed up.)

While i've never heard that she stalked anyone, i've had conversations with her (bearing in mind that she was never my girlfriend, just a friend) amazingly like some of the ptotagonist's conversations with G-Girl in her secret identity...

(BTW -- does "Super Ex" have any specific comics industry connections? I was struck that the company he worked for was "Cockrum Design"...)

Claypool is shutting down, Soulsearchers is ending :(

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=78910

[Now I haven't seen this movie.. but it seems to me that the message is that women can't handle having super-powers without letting their feelings taking control."

What? That's a rediculously huge leap from what's shown in the commercials.]

Then we must be watching different commercials. I see the commercials where she throws a shark thru his window and tosses his car around, flies thru his roof, hangs him upside down from the statue of liberty.

She's one of the reason we have the Super-Hero Registration Act.

"Then we must be watching different commercials. I see the commercials where she throws a shark thru his window and tosses his car around, flies thru his roof, hangs him upside down from the statue of liberty."

None of which makes any statement whatsoever about women in general.

They showed one woman acting a certain way. That doesn't mean they think all women would act this way. If a movie has a redhead as a villain, that doesn't mean the director is saying that all redheads are villainous. If a movie shows a Chinese man who owns an advertising agency, that doesn't mean there's a message about all Chinese people wanting to own advertising agencies.

The commercials show one person acting crazy. To take that as a message about how all women would react to superpowers is a gigantic leap.

"I saw "The Cook, the Thief, His Wife, Her Lover" in college and I remember thinking, "What the HELL was THAT all about???" I mean, that movie accomplished the impossible: it made nudity and sex boring!"

I LOVE that movie. In addition to being a gorgeous piece of filmmaking, it adheres to my rule: no movie that ends with an act of cannibalism can be bad, unless that movie stars Anthony Hopkins (i.e. Hannibal and Titus).

The conversation on June-March relationships seems to have died down so I will start it up again.

While female teachers who sleep with their male students do get arrested, the male students can be congratulated by society for their achievement.

I can't imagine a parallel to Garth Brooks' country song, "That Summer".

I went to work for her that summer
A teenage kid so far from home
She was a lonely widow woman
Hell-bent to make it on her own
We were a thousand miles from nowhere
Wheat fields as far as I could see
Both needing something from each other
Not knowing yet what that might be.

Hey, I LIKED Hannibal and Titus!

If you liked Cook/Wife/Thief/Lover try The Pillow Book by the same director. Beautiful made, frustrating to watch at times, and it proves again that Ewan McGregor is one of our more fearless actors.

Sigh. I suppose I've now been branded some kind of horrid Philistine because I couldn't appreciate "The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, Her Lover."

I'll admit, I'm not that much of a film buff. I love comic books. I could talk all day about them as an art form. Film? I can enjoy a good movie, but I just can't get passionate about film as a medium. I almost never go to the movies. I'll rent/buy some of them on DVD, but not many.

Admittedly, it's a vastly different movie, but I also couldn't get through "Basic Instinct," a movie which also made nudity and sex boring. I was watching a rented videotape (this is back when we used such primitive technology) and I stopped it halfway through and took it back to Blockbuster, half-tempted to demand a refund.

I mean, the plot and dialog were idiotic to the point of promoting brain damage in the audience. It was so mind-numbingly bad that not even the nudity could rescue it. That's saying a lot, because I like nice boobies. I really, really, really like nice boobies.

But not at the price of having to watch the entirety of "Basic Instinct."

Oh, God, that means I like a good plot better than I like a good pair of boobs! What's happened to me?????

Claypool is shutting down, Soulsearchers is ending :(

So, do we get to blame Diamond's monopoly for this?

Scavenger -

well, I certainly was not ignoring that Catherine Zeta-Jones' character was cast in a negative light in "America's Sweethearts". The fact that this or other examples where the female stalking victim is portrayed in a negative light does not mean they don't count just for that reason (that would be shifting the goalposts). One might almost be tempted to come up with a rule based on "America's Sweethearts" and "My Super Ex-Girlfriend": Stalking is funny if the woman is cast as the villain. If one ignored the examples of the movies where stalking is portrayed as funny where the male victim is cast in a negative light.

On the other hand, isn't it funny how disproportionate it all can become in some of the examples of women cast in a negative light being stalked? John Cusack's character in "America's Sweethearts" is only marginally less of a self-centered jerk than CZ-J throughout the movie. Didn't see "Revenge of the Nerds", but I have to wonder if it wasn't way out of proportion to the sorority girls' "offense". And in "A Fish Called Wanda", the audience cheers at a professional criminal trying to kill a harmless old lady. (In the DVD commentary, John Cleese noted with slight amazement that all it took to turn the audience against her was to have her be a little rude to a passer-by in her first scene, while the test audiences were so taken with Palin's character even though he is objectively a cold-hearted killer (of humans), that they had to change some of the later scenes with Kevin Kline in Palin's favor).

John -
I also read that the media in general treat cases in which female teachers seduce their students as much more "newsworthy" than male teachers doing the same, and thus they devote a lot more attention, space and air-time to them.

Eric & Jason -

the more important question would be of course if this is a part of a bigger trend, in other words
1. Are there more movies where we see superheroines losing control, proving unable to handle their superpowers because of their emotions?
2. Are there movies where we see male superheroes acting that way?

The answer to 1. would begin: "Why, only this year we had X-Men 3, where Rogue saw no other way to get out of the emotional frustration caused by her powers than to get rid of them and where Dr. Jean Grey, who acted perfectly rational in X1 and X2, went on a homicidal insane rampage, killing both her lover and her mentor. (Hmm, with X3 and "My Super Ex-Girlfriend" we once again see proof of Karl Marx' adage that everyhing in history happens twice, first as tragedy and then as farce).
As for 2. I don't really think so (The Hulk does not qualify, in his movie version(s) he is not a superhero, but a monster, thus the point of reference would really be Dr. Jekyll and werewolf movies). "Spider-Man 2" may come closest, but even though he experiences psychological problems, Peter Parker never for one moment stops acting rationally.

Bill, to me the most fascinating thing about Basic Instinct was that the filmmakers actually thought the audience would find Glenn Close's character sympathetic, that we'd be rooting for her to win (which, in the original cut, she did, sorta).

I don't think you need to worry about not getting Peter Greenway's movies. very much an acquired taste.

Bill, I am astonished that I must correct you about movies! After all, you're an amateur filmmaker who played a key role in the creation and production of the soon-to-be-released "Second Death."

Glenn Close was in "Fatal Attraction." "Basic Instinct" starred Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone, and featured the now infamous "Sharon Stone leg-crossing-with-no-panties-on" scene, along with a lot of really, really, reeeallllyyyy crappy plotting and dialog.

While we're on the subject, I also tried to watch "Striptease" and "Showgirls" and couldn't finish them because they were so incredibly STUPID.

I am starting to feel ashamed of myself. What kind of a man am I?????

"Why, only this year we had X-Men 3, where Rogue saw no other way to get out of the emotional frustration caused by her powers than to get rid of them"

Having not seen X3 yet, I need a little help on this. Were there any male characters who wanted to get rid of their powers? I know that Beast has been through that more than once in the comics.

Menshevik: "Why, only this year we had X-Men 3, where Rogue saw no other way to get out of the emotional frustration caused by her powers than to get rid of them..."

I may be on thin ice here. I haven't seen X3 (I'll buy the DVD eventually).

But Rogue's powers don't merely cause people to hate and fear her; they deny her the experience of physical intimacy. That's a burden that none of the other X-Men bear; even Cyclops can enjoy a physical relationship with Jean Grey (as long as he doesn't lose his ruby quartz glasses!). I can see anyone, male or female, wanting to be rid of a limitation like that.

I was so disgusted with myself for mixing up Basic Instinct and Fatal Attraction that I went back to sleep for a few hours. In my defense, I have a cold and I just randomly take pills from the medicine cabinet to make it go away or, at least, enter a new reality.

And it makes sense now, since Instinct is quite skippable while Attraction is a well made little thriller.

Bill -
that is correct. And one could imagine someone wanting to get rid of that kind of power irrespective of gender (even though in the comics Rogue - who has a somewhat different character from the movie version - always opted to retain her powers in spite of their downside when it came to the crunch), but it so happens that in X3 the only major character who actually opts for using the Cure is a woman. The two major male characters who consider using it - Angel and Beast - don't.
Similarly, one could easily imagine a jilted male superhero stalking his ex-girlfriend (e.g. Batman, having been left by Vicki Vale subsequent to Tim Burton's "Batman", especially given how paranoid he should be about people knowing his secret ID), but so far such a scenario has not been done in a movie, AFAIK. (Superman handily avoided it in "Superman 2" thanks to his power ex machina, the amnesia-inducing Super-Kiss).

It also happens that the only character who opts for the cure is one that has a really good reason for doing so. Taking that single event as an example of a larger trend isn't a very strong argument.

Superman himself went nuts in Superman 3. If you want to disregard Rogue's extenuating circumstances and just say "they showed a female acting that way," then Superman's exposure to funky kryptonite has to be regarded the same way. Rogue was shown regretting her powers, Superman was shown abusing his.

G-Girl is a crazy superhero. True. However, there have also been bad examples of male heroes. Take the show "The Tick" for example. The Tick himself was nuts and needed constant supervision. Bat Manuel was a lowlife, though a lovable one. Meanwhile the woman in the group, Captain Liberty, was the most competent hero. The cartoon series was even more that way.

Whether or not female superheroes get treated equally to male heroes is definitely a very important question. It just needs to be treated fairly. Pointed to one side of the argument and listing examples while ignoring the other side doesn't make much progress. I've seen two different articles recently about how Joss Whedon is a bad person for killing so many strong women in his shows. Neither of those articles mentioned at all that he's also killed at least a half dozen strong men in the same shows. Thus, those articles are hard to take seriously, even if they do have good points.

Menshevik, you certainly have a point. But Rogue's powers are unique; there is no other X-Man denied the pleasure of physical intimacy with another human being. No lovemaking, no kissing, no hand-holding without gloves. I don't think even the Beast suffers to the degree that Rogue does. It makes sense that she would be the one to succumb to the temptation of achieving a normal life, not because she's a woman, but because her mutation causes her to suffer so.

The fact that Rogue is female is something the movies inherited from the comics. I would be willing to bet that they wanted to capitalize on the base of fans who read and love the comics, so they wanted to try to stay faithful to the comics in certain respects (not all respects, but some). So I don't think there's any sexist subtext there.

On the other hand, "My Super Ex-Girlfriend," another movie I haven't seen, isn't based on a comic-book as far as I know.

Now, granted, I could go and buy X3 on DVD and say, "Damn! Menshevik was right! How sexist!"

But somehow I suspect, from what I know of the Rogue character as established in the "X-Men" and "X2" movies, and from what I've heard about "X3," I'm betting my initial opinion will remain intact.

Bill Mulligan: "I was so disgusted with myself for mixing up Basic Instinct and Fatal Attraction that I went back to sleep for a few hours."

I'm so disgusted with my performance at work today that I'd like to do the same. My manager told me, however, that if I do that I should also pick up a paper and read the help wanted section.

Bill Mulligan: "In my defense, I have a cold and I just randomly take pills from the medicine cabinet to make it go away or, at least, enter a new reality."

And that differs from a normal day for you... how?

Bill Myers: "And it makes sense now, since Instinct is quite skippable while Attraction is a well made little thriller."

Never saw "Fatal Attraction." Movies just don't excite me. Hell, my first exposure to "Star Wars" was the comic-book adaptation, and on some levels I enjoy the adaptation more than the movie.

I guess I'm just weird.

Jason -
Rogue may have had a plausible reason to choose to get rid of her powers, but her choice came under a lot of criticism from quite a few fans and, as I mentioned, in the comics she has consistently chosen to retain her powers in spite of the drawbacks. So no, the Cure was not her only choice (I say this as someone who has defended movie Rogue's decision against other fans' attacks). Also, in the context of the movie, she clearly was not the only person to opt for the Cure, but she was the only prominent character (i.e. character who actually had lines to say) to go through with it, so the question remains why they did not also "give voice" to one of the others (who could easily have been male).

Also, I have to say it is a bit strange how some people seem to argue as if the case of Rogue in X3 was my only example. In the superhero films of this year (X3, the Superman one and “My Super Ex-Girlfriend”) we have, if I count conrrectly, five prominent superheroines (Storm, Jean Grey, Kitty Pryde, Rogue, and G-Girl). Isn’t it a bit much to be a coincidence that three of these five are unable to handle their powers, while this does not applay to any of the more numerous prominent male superheroes (Superman, Cyclops, Wolverine, Colossus, Angel, Iceman, Professor X, and Beast)? They say “once is coincidence, twice is happenstance, three times it’s a pattern” or somesuch (I actually know the saying from “Goldfinger”, where it ends: “three times is enemy action”).

“Superman 3”, by the way, is no counter-example. Here Superman was not failing to handle his powers, but he was acting under the external influence of a mind-altering substance (“funky kryptonite”) applied against his will, he lost not against himself but against an outside force. That is simply not comparable to the case of G-Girl, of Jean the Phoenix in X3 or even to Rogue in X3. The Tick is also not really a counter-example. I posed my questions in the context of superhero movies, in part because we there have a more easily surveyable sampling. So, short answer: We’ll talk again when they do a major Tick movie. Long answer: If we take the Tick into account, we’ll have to look at all comic-book superheroes (or all cartoon-series superheroes) to see whether the Tick is representative of a larger trend or merely an exception that proves the rule (after all, it could turn out to be a satire that points out the ridiculousness of the rules and conventions of the superhero genre by breaking them).

Bill Myers -

re. a possible sexist subtext to the X-Men movies, consider some of the alterations made to the characters:

Storm - a bit wishy-washy in the first two, if she had a defining mark it was her anger (not usually one of her defining marks in the comics), which was contrasted with Kurt's seemingly more mature and wiser attitude to anti-mutant intolerance in X2.

Rogue - a rather different and all in all weaker character than the one we know from the comics. There, even in the darkest times of the 1990s she did not try and get rid of her powers.

Jean Grey - in the comics, the tragedy of the Phoenix is largely caused by the influence of an outside agency (the Phoenix Force). In the movie, she was born with her powers (which are linked to her emotionality) yet was unable to control them without extensive mind-tampering by Professor X (the character with the most tight grip on his emotions and, by some freakish coincidence, a male).

Of course, you could say that some of what could be seen as a sexist subtext was already present in the comics. It is worth noting that at the time Phoenix was the only cosmically powered female in the Marvel Universe, but her story had to end in tragedy (because Jim Shooter so ordained), while e.g. no one asked for the Silver Surfer to be punished and killed off for his deeds as Galactus' herald (which presumably actually resulted in even more deaths than those caused by Dark Phoenix).

I don't know that this qualifies as a "bad" first-date movie -- among other things, the date in question was foolish enough to marry me a few years later, so it couldn't be that bad -- but the first Robocop movie strikes me as, at least, a very odd choice.

And as for "The Cook, The Thief, and the Etcetera" ... saw it once, in grad school. It and "Blue Velvet" are the two films I've seen that, to this day, I can't decide whether I think are masterpieces or drivel. They're both right on that edge.

TWL

"If you liked Cook/Wife/Thief/Lover try The Pillow Book by the same director."

Yeah, I love that movie, too. Peter Greenaway is one of the few true geniuses working in film today. A Zed and Two Noughts is my other favorite movie of his.

"The Tick is also not really a counter-example."

Why not? Because it was an unsuccessful TV show and while My Super Ex-Girlfriend was an unsuccessful movie? That's extremely arbitrary. They're both comedies, they're both superheroes, they were both viewed and judged by mainstream America. If you can't see that they're pretty much the same thing, then I can draw the same parallels with the movie Mystery Men as well.

Superman 3 isn't a real counter example because of the circumstances, but circumstances don't matter with the women?

You also talk about the comics having a sexist pretext, yet Beast has recently gone through the exact same thing as Rogue. His teammates basically had to tie him down to keep him from going after a cure.

Menshevik, you have a very valid point that's worth exploring. However, you're doing it in a very one sided manner. It makes the conversation very unproductive.

"It and "Blue Velvet" are the two films I've seen that, to this day, I can't decide whether I think are masterpieces or drivel."

Yeah, I'm with you on Blue Velvet. I loved it when I saw it in high school, but then I watched it again a few years ago and thought it was lame. So then I watched it a third time, and now I'm not sure what I think of it.

(Incidentally, though, David Lynch is also one of the few true geniuses working in film today).

I guess I'm just weird.

Yes. Yes you are. On the other hand, you are also quite tall, so you have that going for you.

Also, you have a great girlfriend so you must have the ability to cloud minds and/or take incriminating photographs.

I probably don't love Blue Velvet as much as I once did but keep in mind that I once loved it so much I once did the Dean Stockwell "In Dreams" routine at a party. And I hadn't even been drinking.

Yeah, but with all the stuff you'd been inhaling a la Dennis Hopper right beforehand, the fact that you hadn't been drinking really didn't matter all that much...

TWL

I think equality of sexes is a fact. Specially when in this country a woman can get away with infidelity and at the same time neglect her maternal responsibilities, claim in court or mediation that she is a fit parent and that she wants 50% residence of the child and walk away with alimony and a hefty child support check while the child is living 90% of the time with the wronged ex-husband who is covering all the child's expenses. The woman goes on living with the lover, collecting from the ex-husband and the father has to watch his daughter go from time to time to the mother's and mother's lover house because infidelity is not grounds for loosing parental rights, is not even grounds for divorce in many states. I know cases like these and many good faithful fathers victimized this way that the legal system is so pro-women divorce turns into a nightmare for them and justice is almost blind.

Tim, I once read that Lynch thought Hopper's character was only breathing oxygen...which I guess means that Lynch is not much of a drug user. Which is a very good idea on his part because I can only imagine what a bad trip would be like to David Lynch.

Superdad...one gets the feeling you may be going through a bad time. Whatever the accuracy of your impression of the justice system vis a vis divorce, I wish you well. Keep on keeping on, my brother.

In the War of the Roses, they kind of beat up on each other abit, but the guy acts more like a jerk, whereas the woman beating on the man scenes are "funny" (biting him in his privates, punching him in the face, running over him with her car, knocking him down the stairs).

Jason -

Yes. The Tick isn't a movie, therefore it can't be a correct answer to the question
"Are there movies where we see men acting that way?"
An additional reason would be because in a long comics and cartoon series, you simply have more time and space. How often do you actually see the Tick go on a rampage like G-Girl or Dark Phoenix? I saw an episode or two of The Tick and did not notice anything out of the ordinary, so I have to wonder how much the theme was actually developed, it was not as overriding as it was in the case of the three superheroines in X3 and "My Super Ex-Girlfriend".

I did not say circumstances did not matter with women. It is that the circumstances were totally different. To think up a hypothetical analogy: Suppose I had said: Movies make out women to be bad drivers, giving as examples a number where women are shown causing car accidents. And then you had said: no, they also show males involved in accidents, but the example you gave would be of a collision caused by another person deliberately ramming the man's car or of lightning or a falling tree striking it.

Re. the Beast: I did not claim that all comic stories are sexist, my point re. the Dark Phoenix was that not all sexist elements in superhero movies are additions made by the creators of the movies.

Don't know if "Mystery Men" is a good example of a male superhero going nuts, unfortunately I don't remember all that much about it. On the whole I'd have to say that considering how male superheroes clearly outnumber female ones in superhero movies, it should statistically be a lot more easier to come up with examples of male superheroes unable to handle their powers.

Hey, another great date movie: HARD CANDY, from earlier this year.

I guess you miss a CLASSIC MASTERPIECE movie called mr Wrong :)

For shame..should of won an oscar

Always thought Uma was painted as an INSANE phyco. So was her X friend. He was a Super villan after all but all of them painted as pretty darn likeble people. It was meant to be silly

Superman was a Drama..so I GUESS people less Flexble. It also sometime people expect PERFECTION from Superman. Which make him hard to do.

That scene in SUPERMAN RETURNS, it did have a lot of people up in arms, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with it. It seemed like a perfectly natural thing to do, I thought it worked.

Double standards are rampant in the media, more's the pity. However, the movie Hitch kinda softened the idea through "strategic dating", which was much like stalking, but having a mediator through which the guys were keeping tabs on their lass of choice.

For stalking, how about The Graduate? Dustin Hoffman gets dumped by Katherine Ross, gets told to stay away from her, learns she's going to marry someone else, then chases her down and drags her away from the wedding.
A lot of romantic behaviour in movies would be insane or creepy in real life.