PeterDavid.net

Quesada's logic for not liking the Spidey marriage was that it closed off certain types of stories. Soap opera style relationships with multiple girls were a lot of what people expected from Spidey in the early days, so he reasoned that closing off the possibility of doing those stories was not a good thing in the long term.

I can understand that logic, and I see his point about the marriage. So now it seems a little odd that Spidey's secret identity would be revealed. That's another chunk of stories that they can't do anymore. It's another large detail new readers will be confused about. He had a secret identity in every cartoon, TV show and movie that the casual (or just young) reader has seen, so this seems like it would disconnect them from the character more.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea. I can see interesting stories coming out of this. I certainly don't mind the idea of Spidey growing and changing in some ways. It just seems like this is the kind of thing that a company wouldn't do with a major character.

Dont like it one bit, but I see it being retconned anyway. It flat out destroys alot of established drama, as bad as Superman revealing to the World he is also Clark Kent. For all the same reasons, it wont stick.

I can understand that logic, and I see his point about the marriage. So now it seems a little odd that Spidey's secret identity would be revealed.

Um, Speedball?

Dont like it one bit, but I see it being retconned anyway. It flat out destroys alot of established drama, as bad as Superman revealing to the World he is also Clark Kent. For all the same reasons, it wont stick.

That's traditional superheroics. However, to some extent, Spider Man broke a lot of the rules.

Peter, did you know about Spidey's id becoming public when you started the Flash Thompson storyline in FSM? I'm curious to see how it will play out now...thanks!

"Um, Speedball?"

What about Speedball?

You know they found him alive and well, right?

This got spoiled for me, but not here, so i appreciate that.

Newsarama spoiled it mostly by having a thread talking about a big spoiler and showing half of Spider-man's body.

and

then I was checking drudgereport for "up to the minute news" and they had the scene. It is still there if anyone cares to look

Huge mistake in my mind. A shame because PAD's Spider-man book was really good-or had the potential to be, I really enjoyed the non-other issues,and particularly Flash Thompson. I feel, though, the book will never get a chance to stand on its own with its own identity

Sorry this happened-if permanent (Joe Q says no mindwipes).

I really don't want the marriage to end. At all. and i feel this will lead to the end of it-either through MJ's death, or something perhaps ending with Spider-man making a deal to reverse people's knowledge and erase the memory of the marriage from at least MJ.

anyway, keeping her as his wife is the way to go for me-I like how JMS and PAD write the marriage-and if this is permanent, the secret ID thing, it is a big mistake.

"and i feel this will lead to the end of it-either through MJ's death, or something perhaps ending with Spider-man making a deal to reverse people's knowledge and erase the memory of the marriage from at least MJ."

Those are also things that J.Q. said he wouldn't let happen. He said that Peter the widower is even worse than Peter the married guy. He also said that things like mindwipes and turning back time would make people feel like the last 20 years were all invalidated, something that he doesn't want to do.

I think I understand the fuss myself. I just don't think there's a valid reason for it.

It's still all about Peter trying to understand the relationship between power and responsibility, right? So long as that continues to be respected -- and from what I see, it is -- there's no problem here.

Speaking of comics yesterday, did anyone else read the newest issue of Ms. Marvel? Carol has to go into hiding, and is told to check into a room under the name Linda Danvers, because no one would be interested in that name.

I miss Supergirl.

This is a terrific series. Truly. But I'd definitely enjoy it more if I had any confidence whatsoever that Marvel isn't going to wish all of it into the cornfield eventually. I'm certain that at best, it'll be a "House of M" sort of deal, where the only lasting effect is to remake the MU into a form that's easier to editorially manage.

I keep thinking of that episode of "Seinfeld" where Kramer announces that he's going to be remodeling his apartment. "Levels. It's alllll going to be levels. Levels, Jerry!"

And Jerry nods and sips his coffee, because as ridiculous as this project sounds, and as disruptive as all that construction would be, he knows from past experience that despite all the big talk, it's never going to really happen.

So I'm enjoying the story. And part of me is intrigued by the notion of these monumental events becoming an inescapable influence on everything that happens in the MU for the next five years. But when you get down to it, after every CW and tie-in issue -- and particularly after I read an interview with Quesada about the unholy earth-shatteringness of it all -- I'm just nodding and sipping my coffee.

I don't want to sound like the Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons, so I won't say, Worst. Plot. Twist. Ever. But honestly, I keep thinking, "Spider-Man would never do that." But of course, I've had similar thoughts about the entire plot of Civil War since the series was announced. The only sequence of events that would make sense to me is:

1. The Super-Hero Registration Act is announced.

2. All the Marvel super-heroes band together to oppose it.

3. The U.S. government releases Super Sentinels, or perhaps Super Soldiers, to enforce the act.

4. The Marvel super-heroes trounce them.

5. The Super-Hero Registration Act is abandoned or repealed.

But I'd like to hear the other side of the argument: PAD, were you one of the people who made the decision that Spider-Man should reveal his identity? And if you were, what convinced you it was a good idea?

"Soap opera style relationships with multiple girls were a lot of what people expected from Spidey in the early days, so he reasoned that closing off the possibility of doing those stories was not a good thing in the long term."

Well, they always can give Peter Parker some lovers. ¿Anybody said Black Cat?

Didn't Spider-Man have just about the LAST Secret ID in the whole Marvel Universe? Seriously, who's left?

I'm not buying Civil War, but the last issue of JMS's Spidey title kinda leant towards The Big Reveal anyway, so I'm not sure how "spoiled" it can be for any regular reader.

You know, I managed to avoid all the spoilers floating around the past week or so until I got into the car yesterday morning and heard Howard Stern and crew talking about it. It was a choice between driving into a tree or have the whole Peter Parker reveal spoiled. I should have taken the tree...

Peter, I agree with Daniel: I want to know how you felt about the Spidey reveal and whether you agree with it or not. I'm betting on not, but I understand if you don't want to annoy the PTB.

Personally, I think this all ends with a Dr. Strange forgetfulness spell.

My own opinion: Spidey says, 'Screw all of you, I quit. Me and MJ are going to sit on a beach somewhere; call me when the super-villains have surrounded the White House- and make sure my signed amnesty is posted on the front door.'

I saw it pop up in a yahoo news headline. grumble grumble

JAC

Elongated Man had a public identity and a successful marriage. Granted, he didn't have the top tier villians that Spider-Man has.

How many times in Spidey's history has Mary Jane been in danger? So.. whats the difference now? She just needs to hire a bodyguard, thats what most stars do.

This is probably a lot better for her too when with her friends and acquaintances.. "You married that guy? And he's not an actor?" .. "Um no.. he's Spider-Man and he sticks to the ceiling."

My thoughts:

It's either a huge fakeout, or a misguided story development. Either way, it's not going to stand, obviously. If it's a fakeout (a la the Silver Age "revelations" of Spidey's identity)... well, I can't think of anyway to do that without it seeming cheesy, and I'm concerned that's exactly what it will be.

If it's an attempt at a legitimate story development.... well, they'll quickly figure out that the character doesn't work that way, and Xavier will have to do a worldwide mindwipe or something.

I guess we just have to wait till Civil War is over to see which it is, but I for one think that is the completely wrong sort of suspense... the audience should be focused on what's going to happen in the story, not wondering whether the guys behind the curtain will make a particular editorial decision. In essence, they've boiled the question down to "Is Marvel really stupid enough to do that?" and given their track record with character decisions over the last few years, the truly sad thing is that is a completely legitimate question.

If they are that stupid, the thing I'd most like to see when Civil War is over and done with, would be an honest, creator-by-creator breakdown of what they think of the decision, no holds barred. If they think it's stupid or ill-advised, they should be encouraged by The Powers That Be to give their honest open opinion. That would certainly generate a lot more interest in I think, by giving fans who hold the opposing view some representation inside the company.

But again, that's if it's not a huge fakeout.

Fake out. No doubt about it. I don't care what Joe Q says, there will be a mindwipe or some other gimmick.

Personally, I think Stan Lee should have done this somewhere around Amazing Spider-Man #8 (think how cool it would have been to see Flash Thompson find out that "Puny Parker" is his idol, Spider-Man). Forty years late, but hey, it's finally happened.

PAD: Actually, I was more interested on your take of the subject. As a writer for one of the core SM titles, specifically the newest SM title, what do you think of the reveal? It's somewhat artificial to me, but what do I know?

Long time reader of PAD's blog.. first time I felt like commenting.

Seeing this news makes me realize that deciding to drop all the comics I collect.. I don't like Spiderman revealing his identity.. I despise the dissolution of his marriage to MJ.. Hate the Civil War concept (even the heroes who's ids were revealed have long been on record as understanding why others keep it secret).. hate knowing Wolverine's past (destroys the mystery).. at the Distinguished Competition - hate the One Year Later storyline.. absolutely DETEST that Jason is not dead..

I could probably go on and on... but in the end, it seems that comics have lately been more about shock factor rather than storytelling.. JMS and PAD Spider-books being an exception until this nonsense leading into Civil War.

I know that I am no longer the target audience for these books.. and in this age of video games, movies, and instant gratification, comics have to do something to get their demographic's attention.. but still, I mourn at the loss of the heroes of my youth.. and the retconning of the stories that I remember so fondly.

"I despise the dissolution of his marriage to MJ"

sigh

Um, actually, while the newspaper revelation brought the story to national attention, the REAL "blowing" came LAST WEEK in the pages of "Thunderbolts" as part of Marvel's "First Look" program. (For those who don't know about this, it's a program through which participating retailers get a selection of the next week's Marvel and DC titles.) The issue of "Thunderbolts" in question (which officially went on sale Wednesday, the 14th) was included among last week's "First Look" books, and the scene appears on page 2 as part of a television news program playing in the background.
From what I gather through other sources, apparently no one at Marvel caught this and a certain Joe Quesada was more than just a bit peeved when the info made its way around the internet late last week.

Didn't an issue of Spider-Man that came out like a week after Civil War #1 have the same ending?

Re: the marriage: At SDCC I'm asking Joe Q just what the hell his problem is with 20 somethings being married, and since he's already ruined the Summers marriage, why does he feel he needs to destroy another.

As for the big reveal, it was all worth to see JJJ. That image was priceless.

I have just got issue #1 of Civil War and it will be weeks until I get the next issue.

So far, I enjoy it a lot. Reading such a political, thought provoking comic story in Marvel is not something I am used to and also in the context with the ongoing "war against terror" and related topics, you can`t help to make some comparisons.

With my package I also got my latest issue of the Comics Buyers Guide and your views about spoilers. I understand your position but I also think, IF (and that is important) spoiler warnings are given, there is nothing wrong with them. I like reading spoilers, not because they "ruin" my enjoyment but because I see them as teasers. They increase my appetite - well, sometimes, of course, also not. But even then, I know that I have to look at spoilers about something I haven`t read or seen yet with caution. I can form a preliminary opinion but have to do my best to approach the book or whatever with an open mind.

So far, I haven`t got issue #2 and all I have seen so far is this discussion. After Peter was so worried about the consequences of revealing his identity in the first book, this is not a development I would have expected. On the other hand, from articles I have read before that had a more general look at Civil War, I had a gut feeling for a while that Peter will indeed do it.

I think it offers a lot of interesting story possibilities but if I like it or not depends very much on the execution. I don`t want the marriage with MJ to end. I don`t want to see her killed or be the damsel in distress numerous times. As someone already said, give her a bodyguard and also, show that the lady has some teeth and won`t be an easy victim.

Something else about spoilers: Not only do I like reading them because I am curious but also, when I finally get this book, the discussions about this topic will have died down and I will lose the opportunity to participate. I experience that with books all the time and it is very frustrating.

I say we just start throwing out ideas on how to retcon this reveal. All suggestions are welcome! I'll go first.

#1 - Peter's press conference was, in reality, made in an alternate universe, controlled by Mysterio, and his broadcast was exclusively directed towards an audience of Skrulls.

#2 - Peter sticks with the "Iron Spidey" look, proclaiming, "That guy wasn't me! I have the red and Gold costume! See!"

#3 - The Punisher and Wolverine kill everybody on the planet who knows.

#4 - Simply never mention it again, ala Baby May / Clone Saga. If anyone ever mentions it, Parker & Supporting Co. will automatically throw their hands up over their ears and scream, "LA LA LA LA LA LA! I'M NOT LISTENING TO THIS! LA LA LA LA LA LA!"

#5 - Wanda Did It

And so on... you know it'll have to happen eventually, lets just start thinking of ideas now.

"Re: the marriage: At SDCC I'm asking Joe Q just what the hell his problem is with 20 somethings being married, and since he's already ruined the Summers marriage, why does he feel he needs to destroy another."

Bones: The horse is dead, Jim.

Kirk: We... can't take... that chance! Keep... beating it!

I think it's a mssive mistake, and to me seems completely out of character for Spidey. Responsibility is his byword and I can't believe he would risk the lives of his loved ones in this way. Because that's what WILL happen - the only big story "possibilities" that it opens up are ones that bring the villains down on MJ and May (and Pete gets sued by JJJ for misleading him for years or somesuch guff).

All in all, a HORRIBLE decision. Stupid move, JQ.

I can't quite get my head around it, to be honest, for many of the same reasons expressed in this thread already. I do know that I don't like it.

Willing to see where the story goes from here because I'm generally enjoying the whole Civil War so far but my overall enthusiasm for Marvel comics has been hit quite hard by this.

People keep going on about the "Power & Responsibility" angle, which I agree with, he is taking it to the next level, Peter has always been upset about not being "legitimate" and having the Police after him.

For the people who use the P&R card saying that's why he shouldn't have done it - it should have made him protect his family, therefore his secret ID; are forgetting one very important detail about his character. Peter ALWAYS wanted to be liked - he was an outsider, a geek, a victim when he was growing up. That's why when he 1st got his powers he went the showbusines route, he wanted the fame, the glamour, the adulation - to compensate for how he was never loved (outside of his home)when growing up.

I see his "coming out" as another aspect of peter's complex personality - he on some level after all these yrs and after having a relatively quiet life and stability, he would see this as a confirmation that he'd done good and maybe just maybe, he could go on to have everything he wanted when he was a child......the fame and the adulation, the love. He must feel that he's payed his dues in part and can afford to go down this route because he deserves it.

This will obviously lead into his ultimate downfall, I think and he will never ever want to go down this route again. But of course it's too late.

Joe Q said things were getting too safe, everyone liked each other etc, If you know anything about storytelling then I would have thought this was obviously not going to go well and it will bring back, ultimately, that fugative side to spidey back again. This is the genie da'Q wants back and I think it's on it's way.Mark my words!

PS the cover image to #5 - I think while all the villians go after spidey, the real reason they will be doing it is to distract spidey while they go after MJ. Genie 2 now gone as well. ULP!

Well at least this will acomplish a few things:
- People will stop complaining how bad the JMS Gwen story and how out of character that was.
- Fans will beg for them to bring back the clones!

It just doesn't fit, why did it have to be done? Hype wich is what feeds most Marvel books these days (I'm looking your way F4: Death in the Family). Why was he in his regualr costume?

Well I hope it doesn't stick, could the Watcher have a hand in that? Who watches the Watcher?

Since this is a thread on PAD's blog and not JMS's....Under the possibility some have read Civil War, but Not Amazing Spider-Man

or under the possibility some have read neither but are thinking about the information they are learning in this thread...

NOTE: I am about to spoil what happened in the latest Amazing Spider-Man.

Peter's inclination WAS to remain masked. WAS to protect MJ and Aunt May.

But he brought the question to Aunt May and MJ. MJ was at first: "We'll go on the run with you." But Aunt May spoke up and said she wanted the world to be as proud of him as she was. And that the promise he made at sixteen was the promise of a child made without knowledge of the realities of the world. She also told him that responsibility means not running away. MJ agreed with her.

So basically, he expected Aunt May and MJ to support him in his decision to disobey the law, and got blindsided by the two women he loved into realizing the truth of what he had to do.

Love for someone else can at times make someone go a differnt route than they would have otherwise. I also know I make decisions differently today than I did at age 16.

I hope Stark has good lawyers, because what JJJ will do to Peter for faking all those years of supposedly taking photos of Spidey will not be fun. And he just might have a case. He didn't take the photos, the camera's self-timer did.

I've never been a big fan of retcons, but between this and the "Decimation" storyline (specifically, the pretty much wholesale slaughter of characters in the New X-Men title), I wouldn't gripe at all if the decision were made to rewind to just after the "Planet M" thing and start over...

Wildcat

And while I'm at it ...

What about the publishers of WEBS? I expect Peter'll be getting a call or letter from their lawyers as well.

One problem I have as a long time reader is this:

If it is permanent, the stupidness of it seems self-evident. It's like saying "I am goping to take the Peter Parker you've read about for 20 years and say, nah, that was a clone." So dumb, that only people in the bubble can't recognize it.

I don't think it is permanent. But if it is, then it will be reversed. Maybe not now, but a year from now,two years from now whatever. New creators will come and say the same thing Joe Q. says now about the marriage. Or a new Editor in chief. or there will be a movie or book to tie into. Something. So it is inevitable. Maybe after they milke a couple of years worth of stories. Especially when they have already once used the reality warping card in House of M.

it seems very odd that efforts were made not too long ago to put Iron Man's identity back to being secret again too.

Hoinestly, for those who say the last Amazing Spider-man gave it away, it didn't really. It set it up, but it could have gone down differently for sure. I didn't like to have my gut feeling confirmed before I read the book, but there ya go.

Seems weird though too, because one reason for giving him organic webbing was the editor said of a need to match the movies, like synergy. and yet at the same time they gave him the ability to hear insects or something. all after he emerged from a cocoon. and then those powers were not mentioned again by anyone. until he went into another cocoon and got different powers after meeting the spider-gods or some such complete nonsense. Spider-totem, yet another thing that has been and will be ignored by everyone but JMS, until some kid now grows up who dug it and brings it back 15 years from now. So they di the synergy thing, and then do this, a non-synergy thing. I don't believe it is permanent. and even if it is, it isn't anyway. Even Bucky is back.

all I have to say is, when the overwhelming reaction to a story event isn't "Wow!" or even "Nooooo!" but rather an almost resigned. "Huh, wonder how/when they're gonna undo that..." it's pretty much a failure...

The publisher of 'Webs' probably won't have much of a case, as Peter didn't mis-represent the photos (he sold the book to the publisher as photos of Spider-Man, and they were in fact photos of Spider-Man.)

The Daily Bugle might have more of a case, since we've seen on numerous occasions that Peter uses the auto-timer and poses for pictures when he needs quick cash; this practice would be frowned upon, staging photos and selling them as genuinely newsworthy.

My feeling: It will be undone. Period. The only question is whether they've built in a back-door for themselves, which would be where my smart money is (Quesada's public comments aside, I think Civil War will end with everyone's identity becoming secret again, thus restoring the public distrust of super-heroes as nobody knows who these people are. Which is much needed, both in Marvel and DC; when the Atom's ex-wife knows who the current Robin's dad is, that's a sign that your heroic community's become too close. :) )

If they did intend it to be a permanent change, they're fooling nobody but themselves; comic book concepts are like rubber bands. Stretch it as far as you like, but when you let go, it snaps back. Within six years, Peter Parker's identity as Spider-Man will once again be a secret, whether Quesada wishes it or not.

So don't worry so much, people. Take a break, read an 'Essentials' volume, and come back for more next month. :)

I don't like the idea of Spider-Man letting the public know this identity. I liked Peter Parker as the down-on-his luck, outsider. Also, as a teenager, who kept this identity as Spider-Man a secret.

I didn't follow the whole Civil War storyline. In fact I was so fed up with marvel's hyperactive all new greatest change ever kind of attitude about 6 years ago that I've downsized my involvement in Marvel, and have only recently started going back. So I'm really not that aware about what's going o in Marvel.

But, although my first reaction to the story was that it sounds like the worse ide ever, as I was scrolling I stated to feel that there are some good stories that could be told from that angle, if you look at it from a storytelling point of view rather than a fan point of view of 'oh my god they changed spidy. You bastards."

In this day an age of celebraty, paparazzi, reality TV, blogs, spyware, webcams etc. the problems associated with maintaining a secret identity may be a little outdated. The problems now seem to have to do more with how to maintain privacy at all. So maybe it's a storyline worth exploring. I'm waiting to jear what PAD says.

Still, good or bad, this story wil probably be reversed sooner or later like most hyperactive changes.

Before Identity Crisis came out, I was often thinking about whether secret identities were passe in general, but then I saw that there are still good stories that can be told about maintaining such secrets and the prices they pay for it.

Sadly, Civil War looks like Joe Q saw all the buzz DC got from Identity Crisis and said, "hey, let's do a story about secret IDs!" I haven't been buying much Marvel lately, just one or two titles, but I decided to pick up Civil War. So far, I'm not that impressed. Joe Q's pattern at EIC has been all style and no substance and Civil War looks like more of the same.

Compared to the very personal story of Identity Crisis, the disaster that triggers Civil War is too remote with a bunch of anonymous dead. It looks like another attempt by Joey to cash in on 9/11. Other things don't make any sense. I'm sorry, but after guarding his secret so carefully for so long, I can't swallow Peter just tossing it away because of his new found friendship.

And what is the logic of putting Captain America on the opposite side? He hasn't even maintained the pretense of a secret ID for several years. He even voluntarily unmasked after 9/11 in another exploitative story. It just seems like someone (cough, Warren Ellis, cough) who doesn't get either character decided that Steve and Tony have to be on opposite sides of every issue.

It's sad, but as much as I love many of Marvel's characters, it doesn't look like I'll be buying more than one or two titles so long as Joey's at the helm.

I hate this idea. Not only because it goes against the last 35 years of Spidey stories, AND because it is sooooooo out of character for him (his big reason for having a secret identity has been to protect his family. Now what?), but also because this plot point is so 5 years ago. I mean, who hasn't revealed their secret identity in the past 5 years? Marvel used to be the company that led the industry witrh ideas and events. Now it seems like they are stuck spinning their wheels.

I stopped reading monthly comics about two years ago, but the habit is in my blood, so I still keep abreast of what's going on via online resources. When I read about this and saw the page of Peter's announcement, I was floored. This story, this act, that one page made me want to run to my LCS and put the rest of the series on a hold list.

I have so much faith in the creators working on this story that they'll be able to use this as a spring-board for so many great and new stories for Spider-Man.

I hope Stark has good lawyers, because what JJJ will do to Peter for faking all those years of supposedly taking photos of Spidey will not be fun. And he just might have a case. He didn't take the photos, the camera's self-timer did.

Well, all Peter has do to square everything away with 3J is say three magic words:

"Bugle Exclusive Interview"

John raised some interesting points up there. Peter DIDN'T want to do it. But MJ and Aunt May said that he should. The two most important(living) people in his life told him to do it. Now, one of the reasons I've always related to the Marvel characters is they have internal dialogue, a sense of (Not to be too trite) responsibility. Their decisions way on them. The characters evolve.

I'm gonna go to the opposite side here and say I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with this. C'mon, Peter Parker is Spider-Man? Seems like half the other heroes already know who he is. So does SHIELD. But oh no, his greatest enemies will find out! Like the Green Goblin! Oh, he knows already. And Doc Ock. And Venom. And Kaine. And...

To see what I hope will be done with this, go back and read Daredevil's last couple of years. He was outed and the storyline didn't back away from the ramifications. It charged right into them and made for some of the most powerful storytelling I've seen in quite a while.

"To see what I hope will be done with this, go back and read Daredevil's last couple of years. He was outed and the storyline didn't back away from the ramifications. It charged right into them and made for some of the most powerful storytelling I've seen in quite a while."

My point exactly. It has already been done (and done well!)! What is the point of rehashing plot points from other books?

I think Civil War will end with everyone's identity becoming secret again, thus restoring the public distrust of super-heroes as nobody knows who these people are.

*****
I thought that two-one of the 3 genies to be put back in the bottle. But seems the opposite.
***

But MJ and Aunt May said that he should. The two most important(living) people in his life told him to do it
****

Yeah, but they said what JMS wanted them to say. i thought AUnt May sounded out of character and her arguments simply weren't logical.

And Doc Ock
****
He doesn't know. Not since he died and came back

Only Venom (Scorpion version, I believe Brock doesn't know anymore if he is alive and when the scorpion found out, he kidnapped aunt may), Green Goblin (who did kill Gwen that didn't work out so well. "But peter you made a silly promise when yuou were 16 that you didn't think out." "Yeah May, but you know, when Gobbie threw Gwen off a bridge, i realized I was right"), and a bunch of clone related people who will never be brought up again (like the jackal, judas traveller, etc). Lots of heroes know, but that i thought shgould be changed. Virtually nobody should know.

Now everyone knows. All his villains, everybodu elses villains, every petty thug, every person he ever had a cross word with, every mafia guy, terrorist, person looking to sue Spider-man for assault, wrongful imprisonment, property damage and all the other "realistic" things they ignore, various criminal charges for assault, vandalism, reckless endangerment, manslaughter.

I mean, he chooses this? He makes this kind of decision in one night? I mean, at least have it forced out.

"Peter, did you know about Spidey's id becoming public when you started the Flash Thompson storyline in FSM? I'm curious to see how it will play out now...thanks!"

No, I didn't. So the dynamic has now been completely changed. And there's a few interesting ways to go with it. One way is that Flash is the only person in NY who flat out doesn't believe it. He's figuring it's a scam while things are "hot" because of the new law. But that once things die down, Peter and Spidey will be seen in public together and that'll settle that. Another is that Flash starts being Peter's best pal, which would annoy the hell out of Peter because Flash really WAS his best pal at one point, and now he'd figure it's only because Flash knows he's Spider-Man, so it's not like Flash appreciates him for himself. That's just two possibilities.

"But I'd like to hear the other side of the argument: PAD, were you one of the people who made the decision that Spider-Man should reveal his identity? And if you were, what convinced you it was a good idea?"

I wasn't involved in the decision, no. But I think any idea that gets people talking, that stirs interest in a character who's been around for more than four decades, and that doesn't denigrate him (turning him into a serial rapist would accomplish the first two, but would hardly be a quality direction to take him) is inherently a good idea.

And the great thing about this sort of thing is that we can really be guided by fan reaction--both vocal and sales. I mean, hell, truth to tell, when we introduced the original b&w Spidey costume, we figured it would be around for a few months, tops. But the costume being astoundingly popular. People loved it. So not only did Spidey wind up wearing it for far longer than usual, but part of the reason Venom was created was so the alien costume could stay around in the Marvel universe. And if a move is astoundingly unpopular, well, it's comics. I've seen fans all over the place coming up with ways that the reveal could be undone within the parameters of the existing Marvel U.

PAD

Ideas for the eventually retcon:
1.Cosmic Cube anyone?
2.Charles Xavier world-wide mind wipe
3.Infinity Gems anyone?
4.Scarlet Witch hex causes everyone to have short term amnesia
5.Crisis on Marvel Earths resulting in the erasure of the silver age Spiderman leaving only the Ultimate Spiderman.
6. Superman teleports to the marvel universe and posions the water supply with that stuff he used in Superman II that made Lois forget his identity.
7.The Beyonder returns and grants Peter a wish (Secret Wars III anyone?)
-just throwing some ideas out there.

"I don't like the idea of Spider-Man letting the public know this identity. I liked Peter Parker as the down-on-his luck, outsider. Also, as a teenager, who kept this identity as Spider-Man a secret."

Which is pretty much the status quo in both "Ultimate Spider-Man" and "Spider-Man Adventures," which I'm going to writing for a bit, by the way. So...

PAD

The above should read, "The costume BECAME astoundingly popular."

And by the way, just in case I haven't made it clear, I'm perfectly happy with the reveal. It means that I'm working at a time when Spidey's status quo is completely different from anything that's gone before. How cool is that? It's an exciting time to be writing his adventures. Plus, hey, I'm writing him for Spidey Adventures, so it's the best of both worlds.

PAD

I'm more "meh" on the whole reveal. It's a story element in a fictional world. A world where things change from issue to issue, or even within issues, continuity is not a very strong point. So this will either take or it won't, meaning either books will sell or they won't. It'll be good or bad depending on who's writing it. A public ID Spidey can be just as interesting and entertaining as a secret ID Spidey.

I think, without the knowledge of Peter's conversations with May and MJ, this move seems to be totally out of character for him. Knowing that the people he would mostly be concerned with are behind the move, it makes more sense.

But this brings up a bigger reason why I didn't like #2...it was a poorly presented story. Yes, I know it's #2 of a seven issue series, and it's a story that spill over and onto many other books, and that it incorporates elements from other books. But I also know that a good writer finds ways to incorporate essential story elements from those other sources into the main book. I found it very poor writing to leave the fate of Speedball and the New Warriors to Front Line. Ditto for a major scene behind Peter's motivations. And then there's Captain America...I think he was driving the SHIELD van with the New Avengers, but I don't think I saw one Cap or Steve reference. I don't know who else a blond buff guy could be that opposed to the Registration Act...but the story/writer didn't help me out any. Maybe I missed it...I've yet to go back for a second or third reading. But I've been reading comics for over 20 years, and I've rarely put down a book feeling more disappointed than this one. As well done as #1 was, #2 was done poorly.

"Superman teleports to the marvel universe and posions the water supply with that stuff he used in Superman II that made Lois forget his identity."

As I recall, he kissed her. So you want him to contaminate the water supply in the Marvel U with his super spit? I mean, I can see some folks at DC being all in favor of that, but...ewwww.

PAD

If the Marvel universe is supposed to be so "realistic" now, Mary Jane and Aunt May will need to be dead within the next 6 months (by the end of Civil War).

With all the nut case villains who have a real hate for Spider-Man, they are going to try to kill his loved ones for revenge. If either of them survive the end of the mini-series, this will be the biggest farce Marvel has done in a long time. There really is no other possible outcome short of undoing the reveal.

I'd be really happy if some cosmic event occured and the Marvel universe rebooted back to like it was around 1972. Pick up right before the death of Gwen Stacy and this time Spider-Man saves her leading to a Gwen/Peter/MJ triangle.

Then slowly re-introduce the characters who have appeared since then. Maybe some time-shifting could occur so that the All-New All-Different X-Men appeared around that same time so Wolverine, Storm, Colossus and Nightcrawler would already be around.

Retcon theory:
Dr. Strange does a big spell that erases Peter Parker's existance from the map of reality. instead of mindwiping everyone it's as though Peter didn't exist. This dissolves the marriage (which Joe Q seems intent on) without killing MJ or ending in divorce. She doesn't remember ever being married in the first place. Nobody remembers her ever being married. Except Spiderman.

Peter gets to agonize over whether he should pursue MJ knowing the danger he could be putting her in while introducing a new supporting cast.

I hate this idea... but I could see it.

I really can't believe they did this. After Daredevil, why would they repeat such a thing. Look how that story is turning out....just one of the best books Marvel is putting out. I trust PAD and JMS to produce great stories in the aftermath. Marvel was built on changes like this...don't buy it if you don't like. Go re-read back issues or start reading Ultimate or Adventures.

"If the Marvel universe is supposed to be so "realistic" now, Mary Jane and Aunt May will need to be dead within the next 6 months (by the end of Civil War)."

Why? Lot's of heroes in the Marvel U have their identity public, and their enemies haven't wiped out their families. In addition, what about the policement, the judges, the prison wardens. You think Osborn wouldn't go after the judge who sent him to jail? Hell, that would be alot easier of a target then Spider-Man. Yet those people operate and live.

That being said, I have expect Speedball, by the end of Civil War, to somehow go back in time (maybe with new powers given to him by the explosion) kill Nuke before the incident, keeping any of this form happening.

But I'd rather see the next few years worth of stories dealing with Peter's ID being public.

"Dr. Strange does a big spell that erases Peter Parker's existance from the map of reality. instead of mindwiping everyone it's as though Peter didn't exist. This dissolves the marriage (which Joe Q seems intent on) without killing MJ or ending in divorce. She doesn't remember ever being married in the first place. Nobody remembers her ever being married. Except Spiderman.

Peter gets to agonize over whether he should pursue MJ knowing the danger he could be putting her in while introducing a new supporting cast."

Oh hell, because the last season of Smallville didn't suck enough, we should read it in the comics?

Well, I might be in the minority, but I like the idea. I really didn't think Marvel would go there, I was sure they wouldn't dare, but they did. And I'm waiting to see how long they keep daring to do stuff like this.
I started buying Civil War because I was worried that they would really kill Speedball, but #1 hooked me, and Frontline put my worries to ease, and #2 was, if a bit slow, a good hook. Just JJJ's reaction was worth the price.
I don't think May and MJ should be dead within 6 months because they do live in the Avengers Tower. They should be more careful, sure, but how many times MJ ended up in danger without villians knowing Peter's id?
In short, I can't wait to see were this is going. And I had stopped reading Spiderman completely since the Clone Wars. This makes me want to buy more than just FNSM.

"If the Marvel universe is supposed to be so "realistic" now, Mary Jane and Aunt May will need to be dead within the next 6 months (by the end of Civil War)."

Superhero federal protection program?

If it is decided to break Spidey's wedding, It would probably be interesting to persue a MJ the Ex-wife storyline. Ex-wives are an accustomed way nowadays to maintain romantic tension and conflict while keping other options open.

"I don't like the idea of Spider-Man letting the public know this identity. I liked Peter Parker as the down-on-his luck, outsider. Also, as a teenager, who kept this identity as Spider-Man a secret."

PAD Said: "Which is pretty much the status quo in both "Ultimate Spider-Man" and "Spider-Man Adventures," which I'm going to writing for a bit, by the way. So..."

I briefly purchased and read Ultimate Spider-Man for a time,but due to my budget and buying various other titles I stopped. I'm planning to pick up your run on Spider-Man Adventures though.

Honestly, I have not picked up a copy of Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man. Which months ago, I had planned to pick up, only to find out that it would cross-over with MK:Spider-Man & Amazing. Along with being part of "The Other" storyline. I really wished FNSM would had been set outside continuity.

But am I missing something here? MJ and Aunt May convince Peter to "come out" and the result is MJ leaving him?

Huh?

Mike, thanks for signing on to the Dr. Strange theory; frankly I can't see Marvel changing the status quo on a permanent basis.

As a lifelong comic fan, I've really found the above discussion fascinating in the same way as I used to hang out with my friends when I was a kid and toss around the implications of the latest handful of books we just bought and passed around.

Although some of the above posts make some very good points, (Sasha, your Bugle exclusive idea is a stroke of genius), but I still can't buy into Spider-Man giving up his secret identity. This is just my own personal opinion, but there doesn't seem to have been enough narrative laying of track to contradict four decades of continuity. Aside from that, as others have pointed out, the events of Identity Crisis very skillfully demonstrated what can happen if even a D-list super-villain with a screw loose manages to get a hero's home address and show up at the door when his wife is putting a pot roast in the oven. In just one issue, Brad Meltzer managed to raise more intriguing moral and ethical considerations about being a masked hero than all of the Civil War books combined thus far. And yes I know, we're talking apples and oranges here, or Marvel and DC, but good storytelling is good storytelling.

I think the thing that bothers me most about Civil War so far is there just doesn't seem to be an awful lot of internal logic to it. As somebody pointed out earlier, why is Captain America refusing to register when everybody knows who he is? What happens now that Spider-Man has disclosed his secret identity? Doesn't that mean the notion of wearing an uncomfortable face mask is no longer necessary, other than to maybe keep the bugs off your teeth? Why is Mr. Fantastic buying into all of this nonsense when as one of the most intelligent characters in the Marvel Universe he should be able to see the implications of what he's doing? To me, these things just don't make sense.

Anyway, good discussion, and Peter, thanks for chiming in with your own thoughts. It's nice to have a bit of insight from somebody who's currently involved int he creative process.

PAD,

How long have you been in on the secret? Who else on staff were in on it (was a Marvel-wide thing or only a Spider family/Civil War staff thing)?

Was your family in on the secret or were they completely in the dark as the rest of the public?

If they weren't privy to the Spider-Reveal, did any of them declare you of illegitimate birth when they found out? :)

Thanx.

Ironman was a good choice to announce his secret identity. Although do you really want a drunk behind the wheel of nearly indestructable power suit?

I have to disagree with the spidey thing. He's a natural rebel. I thought he would be hanging with Capt. America's group.

The only way out is to do a superman/clark kent thingy where J.J. has Parker in the same room as some other bloke in a Spidey suit climbs the walls and says, "Parker just posed as me. It was a ruse to bring out my enemies. Thanks Parker!"

1"Superman teleports to the marvel universe and posions the water supply with that stuff he used in Superman II that made Lois forget his identity."

As I recall, he kissed her. So you want him to contaminate the water supply in the Marvel U with his super spit? I mean, I can see some folks at DC being all in favor of that, but...ewwww.

PAD
*****

This is when I wish PAD wasn't ignoring me

My whole life, I saw a super kiss that erased his identity from her knowledge. and everyone discussed that, whether cool, or dumb

But then one day on the byrneboard, JB says "That's not what happened he slipped her a mickey." and then him and others say he slipped something into her drink to make her forget.

I've never read the script and haven't seen the movie since then, but I am curious if there is anything to validate that. I've always seen a super kiss.

By the way, has anyone seen The Antichri....uhmm, I mean Bill Gates, quote old Peter Parker recently? ^_^

" As somebody pointed out earlier, why is Captain America refusing to register when everybody knows who he is? "

Oh god. I guess it shouldn't suprise me, but I'm guessing you haven't read Civil War #1? If that's the case, can you read it before griping about it? I know that would be a new trend, but you know... it would be nice...

And if you have read it, and that's what you came away with, then reread it. They clearly state why Cap is on the other side, and it has NOTHING to do with him registering.

The same thing with the Mister Fantastic thing. They've clearly, and repeatedly spelled out why he feels the way he does, in multiple books, not the least of which is the Illuminate Special, as well as Civil War #1.

"How long have you been in on the secret?"

I don't remember exactly when I found out. Four, maybe five months ago. "

"Who else on staff were in on it (was a Marvel-wide thing or only a Spider family/Civil War staff thing)?"

I'd think, realistically, all the creative teams, but honestly I haven't the faintest idea. When you're sworn to secrecy on something, it's not like you can start going around to other people and saying, "Hey, did you know about this?" I couldn't take a poll.

"Was your family in on the secret or were they completely in the dark as the rest of the public?"

I told Kathleen. She tends to read my scripts as I write them, so she was going to find out anyway. But if you can't trust your wife...

PAD

If they weren't privy to the Spider-Reveal, did any of them declare you of illegitimate birth when they found out? :)

I don't know...so far I am okay with it. It opens some interesting doors. And I never cared for keeping a character in the same place. I didn't when I was a kid, and I don't know...I know some people wish they were still reading Peter Parker high school everyman (though I, to this day, argue that science nerd who can design high tech web shooters and dates an endless series of hot girls is about as everyman as a millionaire who dresses like a bat)...but I am glad he's not the exact same character from when I was a kid.

I look forward to seeing what Peter (the writer) does with the opportunity presented.

I told Kathleen. She tends to read my scripts as I write them, so she was going to find out anyway. But if you can't trust your wife...

Considering your most recent blog entry, Paul McCartney might have something to say about that.

Jerry, you're right in the sense that Civil War #1 clearly demonstrates Cap's reason for being on the other side of the war, and yes, it doesn't have anything to do with registration, so apologies to everyone for getting the two issues mixed up.

That said, I did go back and look at CV#1 as well as the Illuminati Special (not Illuminate as you said in your wonderfully sarcastic response) and I still don't see anything that spells out why Mr. Fantastic is falling on this particular side of the war. I'm prepared to be challenged on this, but I think it's a matter of interpretation. In fact, Reed only has a couple of lines in CV#1, and I certainly don't see how Johnny Storm's beating in that issue would support a pro-government stance.

Again, I'm prepared to be wrong if there's an event taking place in one of the myriad CV tie-ins that I don't pick up. I may read Civil War in addition to the regular books I buy on a monthly basis, but frankly I don't give a crap about characters like She-Hulk or Ms. Marvel or the Thunderbolts, so if that puts me in a position of ignorance here, so be it.
At three or four bucks a pop, I've got more important things to spend my money on.

I am going to say this. Spider-man's reveal was a good thing. I agree with Peter on this... it's something that gets the world talking about comic books again (and not just the superhero, movie, video games, etc...) is a good thing. Hopefully it results in sales a little, but maybe I'm being a little too hopeful.

Buuuuuuttttt.... the fact that the reveal is in issue 2, (and side note... JMS really blew the whole story by the ASM story the previous week.) This just reinforced my views that alot of people are going to die. Storm and Black Panather getting married, Spider-man reveal, Hulk becoming Galdiator, it all feels like one big misdirection. I almost think that MJ will die in the end. Not necessarly Aunt May, but my money is on MJ dieing.

Personally, it's starting to feel a lot like Crisis back in the eighties. I'm starting to like it, even though I really dissapprove of Tony Stark's protrayl lately. That's what everyone should be up in arms about. Nothing makes sense with that character.

Side-side-note: Peter is writing Spider-man adventures? Finally can give my kids a marvel comic to read now! Horray! But where's my Hulk Adventures? My kids really like the Hulk.

Turning Superman into an electric smurf got people talking about comics. Anyone still think that was a good thing?

I'm most interested in seeing how supporting characters handle the news.

Bring Back Deb Whitman!

Well, I was wondering how long it would take before Civil War would drag PAD's F'N Spider-Man into the mess, and now I've got my answer.

Your writing on this book, PAD, is great as usual, but it's frustrating when the events of the rest of the MU dictate some of the stories you have to write (The Other leading to the new suit, now this). Blah.

Firstly, I don't like it. Part of being a super-hero is having the secret identity. Just look at the first ten minutes of "The Incredibles" That explains it all....

This may have already been said... but it seems the mainstream Marvel Universe is catching up with the Ultimate Universe. In there, everyone and their uncle knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man...

Oh, I missed PAD's comment saying he's happy with the decision, which is cool by me. I'd just rather see PAD write Spidey rather than PAD write Spidey in response to how everybody else is changing Spidey. :)

What about Speedball? You know they found him alive and well, right?

Yes, that's the point.

That said, I think this can go several ways. And I frankly don't care if they undo it or not, as long as good stories are told along the way.

That's what it comes down to...the story. Trust the story, not the hype.

Honestly, the changes in Spidey's powers, manifestations, the recent "death", and the shniy new armor bugged me as a reader a lot more than the reveal.

> ... his big reason for having a secret identity has been to protect his family. Now what?

Now they are living in the specially-designed HQ of "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". If the Avengers, including the Sentry and let's not forget Jarvis, can't keep them safe, then the Gods had it in for them and they were dead anyway.

Kinda rough not being able to go down the street for a pizza, though.

First, a disclaimer: Haven't read CW yet; actually several weeks behind in my comic reading. If my questions are already answered in the printed media, feel free to ignore.

Ok.

(1) Isn't the whole "superhero registration act" meant to register heroes with the government? Plenty of people work for the government without going public. Is revealing their identities truly part of this law??

(2) I seem to recall the Avengers having a government liason (but perhaps not in the latest run; which I'm skipping due to $$-reasons), so don't Avengers members already have ties to the government?

(3) Heroes who don't register are being...what? Arrested? Imprisoned?? Yeah, that's gonna work well on Ghost Rider (for instance).

(4) The Reveal - - so, is Spidey going maskless from now on? I mean, that was the whole reason for the mask, right?? (Yeah, sure, you could make arguments that the mask acts as a filter against gas attacks and smoke and what have you - - and I suppose the lens could protect against instense light/strobe effects...)

Finally, I'll refrain from mentioning the "marriage breakup" because this sounds more like rumor (to me). I mean, splitting Peter and MJ so he can, what, hang around with other girls?? I guess they want Spider-Playboy, not Spider-MAN...

Joe Quesada has made enough noise about breaking up the marriage that such was the very first thing I thought of as the fallout of this revelation, that Joe was foreshadowing a big upheaval in Peter's life.

Let's see: two kidnappings and one near-death by being thrown off a bridge. That's what I predict for MJ in the next year, and then she'll file for divorce for her own protection.

No, wait: she's going to file for anullment. That way, the marriage never actually existed and Joe Q. doesn't have to worry about stories about "divorced Peter", he can have just stories about "unmarried Peter".

You just watch...

1Hey everyone,

This may have been said in a previous post here but I normally post on the Hulk board, so if I step on anyones toes please forgive me.

Over the last several months, I've been reading about how Civil War was coming to the Marvel Universe. At first, it seemed like the story had some serious potential however now that we are 2 issues into the story with numerous crossovers, all I can say is what the hell were they thinking? I know, I might be in the minority here, but I think this could go down as a massive blunder by Marvel. Granted it will be a huge success and sell millions of comics but the overall premise of the story is weak. Let's take the concept from the movie "The Incredibles" and change it just a tad and bang we have Civil War.

How many Marvel characters are already known by the public and by Shield already? Another annoying little tid-bit is the treatment of Captain America! This is a hero that could get any Marvel character to push stronger and fight harder no matter what the odds. A character that represents the American public, an icon of good for all heroes and civilians to look up too. Fast forward, he's a criminal on the run and Iron Man is the poster boy for Superhero Registration.

Iron Man (Tony Stark) may been the funding machine that kept the Avengers going all of those years but Captain America was the one responible for holding the spirt of the team together. To think that anyone hero would side with Stark over Captain America is completely absurd.

I'll wrap this up because I could go on and on. Last point, Reed Richards, arguably the worlds smartest scientist, is overcome with excitement over the Superhero Registration Act, on par with finding his first black hole, please! This whole dialoge should have found the black hole of a garbage can. Wasn't it just a couple issues back that the governemnt was trying to take away their son and Reed and Sue had to stand on a soapbox to prove that their son was safer with them and not in foster care? Now all of the sudden, having everyone hero reveal their identity to the government is the safest way to protect the people.

PAD I'd love to hear what you all think. If you agree or disagree? Please point out any flaws that you might see with Civil War as well?

Thanks

Harold Kayser

OK, I thought it would be fun to try and come up with story opportunities that this change might allow for. The detriments are obvious, but they always are at first. The fans originally hated it when Gwen Stacy died, too. It was the stories that came after that made fans love that story.

1) Celebrity Status. Peter's life becomes more like Brad Pitt. Well, it's Peter, so more like Sean Penn. Tabloid rumors are quite the same as the nice, direct libel the Daily Bugle has provided over the yeras.

2) More trust from the citizens of the Marvel Universe. If Spidey is talking someone out of suicide, he can take his mask off and be more personal. If the police know something, he doesn't have to hope that one cop is reasonable, he can just walk in the station and chat.

3) Family members lives change. Does Mary Jane get jealous because people keep asking her about her famous husband? Does Aunt May get mobbed at the grocery store?

4) Old characters become new again. Peter dated a *lot* of women before MJ. Not just the ones everyone knows like Betty Brant, but minor characters like Deborah Whitman. Is Deborah going to have a nervous breakdown when she finds out? What about his old neighbors Bambi, Candi, and Randi? Is one of them going to show up with an alleged Spider-Baby? That was years ago and memories get hazy, if one of them says "you got drunk at that party," will even Peter be sure that nothing happened?

If any of these people make headlines, will villains go after them, too?

5) Job impact. I liked the teaching career, but would something like that ever be possible again? Maybe it would, just not at a place with security as bad as the high school. On the other hand, maybe Mr. Parker can make more changes at a school with a little extra respect.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

"Tabloid rumors are quite the same"

That should read "Tabloid rumors are *not* quite the same"

I hate not being able to edit old posts.

"(1) Isn't the whole "superhero registration act" meant to register heroes with the government? Plenty of people work for the government without going public. Is revealing their identities truly part of this law??"

Yes, they are required to register with the government, but they are not required to go public. Spidey did that as a sign of good faith thing after encouragement from Iron-Man.

Some of the heroes are concerned that if the gov has the info, some super villain will get a hold on it sooner or later.

"(2) I seem to recall the Avengers having a government liason (but perhaps not in the latest run; which I'm skipping due to $$-reasons), so don't Avengers members already have ties to the government?"

They had a government liaison, but he didn't know their secret identities. So the government liaison had ties to the Avengers organisation, but not significant ties to the individual members.

"(3) Heroes who don't register are being...what? Arrested? Imprisoned?? Yeah, that's gonna work well on Ghost Rider (for instance)."

Arrested, yes. I don't think Ghost Rider was a terribly legal guy to begin with.

"(4) The Reveal - - so, is Spidey going maskless from now on? I mean, that was the whole reason for the mask, right?? (Yeah, sure, you could make arguments that the mask acts as a filter against gas attacks and smoke and what have you - - and I suppose the lens could protect against instense light/strobe effects...)"

Spidey's new costume will be a t-shirt and jeans. :)

The mask is just part of the costume. There might be some issues where a villain jumps out and Peter doesn't bother changing clothes before defending himself, but in general the mask is just part of his uniform.

"Finally, I'll refrain from mentioning the "marriage breakup" because this sounds more like rumor (to me)."

Good call, it is just rumor at this point. J.Q. said that there was something in the 40 year history of Spidey that he didn't like, and people went nuts. J.Q then said that divorce and erasing the last 20 years would be even worse, and people have ignored that. Go figure.

You all realize this is just one big setup for the return of Ben Riley as the real Spider-Man, and not the clone impostor, Peter Parker, right?

F N A.

I'm not a big Spider-Man fan (reading FN Spidey because of you and liked JMS' on "The Other" to keep reading Amazing), but I absolutely HATE the fact that he revealed. Personally, I was looking forward to a "Screw you all and the horses in upon which you rode!" from Spidey.

They are going to have a Guantanomo Bay type thing for those who disagree I think

The same thing with the Mister Fantastic thing. They've clearly, and repeatedly spelled out why he feels the way he does, in multiple books, not the least of which is the Illuminate Special, as well as Civil War #1.
******

I am not sure the issue is whether they spell out why so and so supports or doesn't support the law. These characters are written-they can say anything anyone wants them too. The real question is is it in character? I thought few of the heroes were written well in illiminati (including Doc Strange and Mr. Fantastic) and few now. I think Cap is being written right, but many are not, including Spider-man. The whole thing is just a mess.

"But then one day on the byrneboard, JB says "That's not what happened he slipped her a mickey." and then him and others say he slipped something into her drink to make her forget."

He did give her a "super kiss" (he also did it in Superman IV). I think the whole "slipped her a mickey" (what, a super Kryptonian mickey that erases memories?) is Byrne's fanboyish way of denying that the Superman in the movies has (gasp!) superpowers that he doesn't have in the comic book (like the finger tractor beam thing). Because, you know, movies have to be EXACTLY THE SAME as the comics.

This brings me to my other point, which is that a common argument among people who are against Spider-Man revealing his identity is that it's "not how it's been for the last 40 years." My question is this: do you really want comics to stay exactly the same, forever? If so, why on earth do you read them?

People even complain that he's married to a model and has no money problems anymore, simply because they can't "relate" to him anymore. But why would people want to read about Peter worrying about paying the rent for the rest of their lives? Sounds like some sort of Dante-esque hell to me. I prefer my characters to actually, you know, grow up. If you can only relate to Peter Parker when he was a pathetic loser, um... that's really not a good thing, so you might want to reevaluate your own life, rather than his.

My point is that change is good. It keeps things interesting. And since I consider Spider-Man to be one of the least interesting Marvel characters, any change to his status quo has to be a good thing.

'The mask is just part of the costume. There might be some issues where a villain jumps out and Peter doesn't bother changing clothes before defending himself, but in general the mask is just part of his uniform.'

I'm sorry Jason, but I have to take major exception here. If you go all the way back to Amazing Fantasy #15, the final page has a feature on Spidey's costume and mask. In The Secret of Spider-Man's Mask, one of the notes indicated, 'The white areas in Spidey's eye cut-outs on his mask are really clever plastic lenses of the two-way mirror type! He can see out very clearly, but one can see in! Therefore he can never be recognized by the color of his eyes!'

And in the section on Spidey's Costume, it notes that 'Spider-Man's colorful head-mask conceals his features and also effectively muffles his voice, making it unrecognizable!'

The above suggests to me that as far back as Spider-Man's very first appearance, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko had already taken into account how important his secret identity was.

Hmm, further research reveals that the "slipped her a mickey" thing was mentioned on the DVD audio commentary.

It's gotta be a joke.

Could super heroes afford to live the celebrity life style?

"I'm sorry Jason, but I have to take major exception here"

When I said that the mask was "just" a part of the costume, I misspoke (mistyped?). I didn't mean to say that it was a frill and nothing more. I meant to say that it was an integral part of his costume. Removing the mask would be like a police officer wearing a blue jeans instead of the black slacks. It's part of the uniform, and it won't go away.

Welp it ain't like Superman's still dead neither, so it should at least make for an interesting couple of years until they undo it. I can't wait to see JJJ's reaction. I'm hoping for splattered brains all over his office.

He did give her a "super kiss" (he also did it in Superman IV). I think the whole "slipped her a mickey" (what, a super Kryptonian mickey that erases memories?) is Byrne's fanboyish way of denying that the Superman in the movies has (gasp!) superpowers that he doesn't have in the comic book (like the finger tractor beam thing). Because, you know, movies have to be EXACTLY THE SAME as the comics.

Like you noted later, the mickey was a part of the movie (in scenes, you can kinda notice how the cup Clark gives Lois is conspicuous); I remember reading about it. The use of it in SUPES IV was just using what was assumed before and, considering the rest of the film, lousy writing.

And although there is something to ridiculous bellyaching about needing "movies [having to] be EXACTLY THE SAME as the comics", there is a legitimate point in making sure there isn't utterly illogical and radical departures from the source material, especially with someone as iconic as Superman. (That's why there was such a hue and cry over some of the earlier proposed scripts for SUPERMAN V/SUPERMAN RETURNS; they really had no respect or resemblance for the character or concept of Superman.)

What kind of mickey selectively removes memories? then again, what kind of kiss does? They should have made the mickey thing more clear, since it is a key plot point, and people have spent 20 years saying it was a super kiss.

or maybe both, who knows

I haven't had time to read all of the posts in this thread, so please forgive me if I repeat something someone else has already written. But I feel compelled to say that I find many of the reactions to Spider-Man's public unmasking quite ironic.

When Stan Lee proposed Spider-Man to Martin Goodman, then publisher of Marvel Comics, Goodman initially rejected the idea because, well, no one would want to read about a teen-aged super-hero with problems, right? I mean, that flew in the face of everything we knew super-heroes were supposed to be.

We all know how that worked out. Can you say "Amazing Fantasy #15?"

So now many people are up in arms over the idea of Spider-Man publicly unmasking himself, because it flies in the face of how super-heroes are supposed to be, or how Spider-Man is supposed to be. But, y'know, wasn't that what made Spider-Man popular in the first place: that he helped re-define what super-heroes could be?

Yet now many see him as part of a status quo that mustn't be upset in any significant way. And I find that ironic.

Staying true to the comics is a fine balance. Organic webshooters? That didn't bother me much for a couple of reasons.

Superman pulling the 'S' shield off his chest and throwing it out as a giant net? That still confuses me.

Of course, that wasn't so rediculous at the time. The biggest thing I liked about the Byrne revamp was that it got rid of things like "Super Hypnosis". When I saw Super Hypnosis in the comics, ever fight Superman had ever had seemed pointless.

You know, I always thought that the finger tracker beam power was something unique to the phantom zone villains, after all did Superman ever use that ability himself in the movie?

The same with the holographic Supermen and S-shield. My assumption always was that he was using his dad's holographic projector to make those images. Note that he was only able to make them in the Fortress.

As for the memory-erasing kiss. Umm, yeah, a mickey. Jeez, does this mean I have to agree with Byrne on something?

The S-Shield attack came in the streets of Metropolis. The holographic Superman didn't just work in the fortress, Supes told Lois that he used to do that in school.

1You know, I always thought that the finger tracker beam power was something unique to the phantom zone villains, after all did Superman ever use that ability himself in the movie?

The same with the holographic Supermen and S-shield. My assumption always was that he was using his dad's holographic projector to make those images. Note that he was only able to make them in the Fortress.
****
Exact same feelings. Felt the zone guys had their own reaction to the yellow sun with some power variations. and felt Superman had rigged up the Fortress so not only would he be able to use an S shield hologram, but duplicate himself as well. Figured he did that when he switched the red light from shining in that thing, to all over the fortress.

Yet now many see him as part of a status quo that mustn't be upset in any significant way. And I find that ironic.
******

I do feel they will erase this. But

(1) Spider-man has had so many "you'll never believe this" moments lately, that it gets tired and old, and at some point, you just want a 20 issue run to read that is just solid comics.

(2) revealing his identity isn't exactly pushing the envelope kind of stuff. Wally West did it years ago, once, and recently enough Iron Man has done it twice, Captain America, Daredevil and others, to the point where the rare thing is becoming the hero who does have a secret identity and one that matters. (Even when Cap had one, it was really the same as Cap. and Bruce Wayne has been mostly non-existent in the comics-he is so obsessed they are the same thing). So few heroes have a secrt identity where the secret identity matters, and has its own world. (Even Superman-his friends and Clarks friends are the same exact thing. His world and CLarks world are exactly the same). Spider-man was the one guy whose secret identity was as interesting as his alter-ego, whose identity mattered, and whose identity had its own life to it.

So I think this, if it was permanent, or semi-permanent, makes him less unique.

As far as JJJ suing Spider-Man for faking his photos:

1) Peter was long believed to be in cahoots with/partners with Spider-man, explaining why Peter got so many pictures of Spidey. Spidey would tip Peter off to action, or brgin Pete along. That scenario allowed for the possibility of Peter and Spidey faking photos, so if there was no suit then, why would there be one now?

2) As far as Peter not taking the pictures: he set up the camera; one imagines that, when safe to do so, he made sure that whatever action occured stayed within range of the camera; and he developed the pictures. Now, I know I'm overanalyzing this, but it seems to me (speaking, as is traditional on the 'net, with little to know knowledge of the subject at hand) that framing the shots (by initial positioning of the camera with respect to the relatively immobile landmarks in the area), finding adequate lighting (without which the pictures won't come out at all), and other similar tasks are at least as important as personally holding the camera and choosing when to click a button. So, again, don't see a case for fraud.

HOWEVER:

As I have pointed out before, JJJ *does* have a significant case for fraud on Peter's part, and this just nailed it down.

In Mark Millar's run on MK SPIDER-MAN, Jameson offered a reward for Spider-Man's identity. I can't remember the exact total, but I keep wanting to say $5,000,000. Peter eventually came forward and told JJJ who Spider-Man was: JJJ's son, John (currently the She-Hulk's fiance).

Peter himself wrote the scene where Jonah finds out that John is not Spider-Man. Since then, I have been somewhat disappointed that Jonah didn't at least try to put together a lawsuit against Peter for fraudulently claiming that reward (a reward that Peter gave away).

At this point, unless Jonah is written as having the whole reveal open his eyes tremendously, he's got an open-and-shut case against Peter.

I hope someone picks up on this sometime soon....

RD Francis

PAD wrote:

"One way is that Flash is the only person in NY who flat out doesn't believe it. He's figuring it's a scam while things are "hot" because of the new law. But that once things die down, Peter and Spidey will be seen in public together and that'll settle that. "

Please, please, go this way. Given that Flash retains his Silver Age memories, and Peter's been unmasked before in the Silver Age, it would be the perfect way to go. Everyone else will think Flash is in denial, but it makes perfect sense from his Silver Age perspective.

"And if a move is astoundingly unpopular, well, it's comics. I've seen fans all over the place coming up with ways that the reveal could be undone within the parameters of the existing Marvel U."

So, just to clarify... are you confirming that this is NOT a fakeout or planned reversal, and is actually a legitimate new status quo they plan to take with the character? Or are you not yet at liberty to say one way or another?

The S-Shield attack came in the streets of Metropolis. The holographic Superman didn't just work in the fortress, Supes told Lois that he used to do that in school.

No, the S-shield was definitely in the Fortress and I think he was joking about the school thing. He was an infant when he left Krypton after all.

"He was an infant when he left Krypton after all."

Who said anything about Krypton?

I was thinking last week, before news.bbc.co.uk told me what Peter Parker had done, and as far as I know, unprompted by anything in comics, what could happen narratively if a superhero was publically unmasked.

I haven't yet figured out where I'd take the story, but it sounded like it had a lot of potential. Granted, Parker's already passed the hurdle of Mary-Jane or Aunt May finding out, but there's still everyone else.

I wonder if he still has that cheque. I remember a story about a fairly early comic in which someone rich wrote a cheque to Spidey for some heroics, and Spidey not being able to cash it at a bank because he wasn't known as someone with a bank account, and the dilemma of cash vs. revealing his identity.

I alkso haven't figured out why the villains should now have an advantage in going after people Spidey cares about. If Spidey and MJ were known, then they're still known; now everyone knows Spidey's Parker, surely they're more likely to target him?
And surely there's more story ideas to roll around so long as MJ and Aunt May are still around? Killing them off is a waste of material.

Here's one thing I'd like to understand better. Why is the recurring villain theme not a bigger part of cop shows and cop movies?

I can remember seeing a few episodes of cop shows where a criminal got out of jail and went after the cop who put him away. However, it's a very, very few. That's a constant concern in superhero comics.

So what's the difference? Why do we expect every single one of Spidey's enemies to go after his family, but nobody says anything if a cop show is on the air for 7 years without that ever happening?

Don't forget that Spidey SUED JJJ for libel in She-Hulk v3, but dropped the case after he was added to the case as Parker. As I recall, they settled out of court after JJJ and Peter handed out printed apologies while dressed as chickens.

Also keep in mind that Peter was UNDER AGE when he started freelancing to the Bugle.

Of course, this probably won't matter to JJJ. We're talking about someone who left basic media ethics and law behind ages ago, the guy responsible for the creation of the Scorpion and the Spider-Slayers.

Considering what the Two-Gun Kid just did to John Jameson this week, JJJ will GO BALLISTIC.

Posted by RDFozz at June 16, 2006 06:15 PM

As far as JJJ suing Spider-Man for faking his photos:

1) Peter was long believed to be in cahoots with/partners with Spider-man, explaining why Peter got so many pictures of Spidey. Spidey would tip Peter off to action, or brgin Pete along. That scenario allowed for the possibility of Peter and Spidey faking photos, so if there was no suit then, why would there be one now?

2) As far as Peter not taking the pictures: he set up the camera; one imagines that, when safe to do so, he made sure that whatever action occured stayed within range of the camera; and he developed the pictures. Now, I know I'm overanalyzing this, but it seems to me (speaking, as is traditional on the 'net, with little to know knowledge of the subject at hand) that framing the shots (by initial positioning of the camera with respect to the relatively immobile landmarks in the area), finding adequate lighting (without which the pictures won't come out at all), and other similar tasks are at least as important as personally holding the camera and choosing when to click a button. So, again, don't see a case for fraud.

HOWEVER:

As I have pointed out before, JJJ *does* have a significant case for fraud on Peter's part, and this just nailed it down.

In Mark Millar's run on MK SPIDER-MAN, Jameson offered a reward for Spider-Man's identity. I can't remember the exact total, but I keep wanting to say $5,000,000. Peter eventually came forward and told JJJ who Spider-Man was: JJJ's son, John (currently the She-Hulk's fiance).

Peter himself wrote the scene where Jonah finds out that John is not Spider-Man. Since then, I have been somewhat disappointed that Jonah didn't at least try to put together a lawsuit against Peter for fraudulently claiming that reward (a reward that Peter gave away).

At this point, unless Jonah is written as having the whole reveal open his eyes tremendously, he's got an open-and-shut case against Peter.

I hope someone picks up on this sometime soon....

RD Francis

As for Aunt May & MJ leaving; remember that May spent most of the 90's dead, while Mary Jane has left Peter before (right after SHE was dead for a while).

Posted by: Jason M. Bryant at June 16, 2006 09:30 PM

Here's one thing I'd like to understand better. Why is the recurring villain theme not a bigger part of cop shows and cop movies?

It's not too hard to understand if you think about it a bit. Cop shows are trying to be a bit more realistic than super-hero stories (admittedly, cop shows aren't entirely realistic, but they're a bit more down-to-earth than super-hero stories).

People don't escape from prison very often, and when they do, they're more likely to want to avoid the cops than to seek revenge. Moreover, individual cops are part of a larger system, and I'm betting criminals see the badge rather than the individual behind it.

The idea of a recurring nemesis makes more sense in the context of super-heroic fiction than in most other genres. After all, most super-heroes are distinctive, with costumes and code-names that make them easily recognizable and memorable. Plus, super-villains can escape from prison using super-powers or super-tricks that criminals in the real world don't have at their disposal. Finally, the best villains are equally distinctive, and have an appeal that makes them worth bringing back time and again, whereas seeing the same criminals pop up time and again on a cop show would grow tiresome, at least for me.

Deb Whitman, hadn't heard that name in a long time. My guess.. she writes a book, "I Dated Spider-Man." Heck, Jonah can write a book, "How I put a roof over Spider-Man's Head.

Jonah's whole problem with people like Spider-Man was that they were doing the hero thing outside the law and kept their identity secret. In keeping with that.. he should support the Super-Hero registration act and the heroes that step forward. He should do what sells papers and that would be a "Who is Peter Parker?" edition and he can have it put out the quickest. Of course his longtime grudge with Spiderman might prevent that from happening.

**I'm most interested in seeing how supporting **characters handle the news.
**
**Bring Back Deb Whitman!

That's funny! I was thinking about what her reaction would be (and others Betty Brant, Flash Thompson, etc.) right as I read your post.

It got me thinking that there was an issue right around the time PAD wrote his first ASM. I believe it was #262, where a photographer snapped a quick shot of Peter changing into (or from) Spider-Man. The rest of the issue Peter tracks him down to get the film before he can sell it. At the end of the issue the guy wonders if he'll ever be able to recognize Peter's face in a city of X million people. I'm always a big fan of nods to the past. It might interested to to a page or two within one of the reg. Spider-Man books showing reactions of folks like these.

In fact, PAD, one of your first Spidey stories featured 3 college guys who, I believe, set out to prove who Spider-Man was, correct? Or was it to defeat him as kind of a mind of muscle type thing. They (or rather, you) created that Blaze character. Did they ever find out who he was in the issue? It's been so long since I've read it. PPSSM #103, right?

Bring on Spider-Man Visionaries: Peter David!

G

People don't escape from prison often, but it happens enough to be supported in fiction. Also, murderers do get out of prison normally (sometimes in only a few years, despite the severity of the crime) and it's certainly not unheard of for criminals to get off on technicalities.

Recurring villains happen less in crime shows, but they do happen. If a criminal is shown getting off on a technicality, his second story usually isn't a revenge story. It's usually him committing another crime and the same detective tracking him down again.

I think you're right, that it is realism that makes the crime shows do it this way. I think real criminals are much less concerned with the people who caught them than super villains. I think that's a more recent thing. It seems like golden age villains were more concerned with committing their next crime than they were with getting revenge.

Modern villains spend a lot of time getting revenge, even when they originally just wanted to rob a bank here and there. If some of Spidey's villains just kept on committing crimes without ever going after Peter Parker, that would probably be believable.

Jonah's whole problem with people like Spider-Man was that they were doing the hero thing outside the law and kept their identity secret. In keeping with that.. he should support the Super-Hero registration act and the heroes that step forward. He should do what sells papers and that would be a "Who is Peter Parker?" edition and he can have it put out the quickest. Of course his longtime grudge with Spiderman might prevent that from happening.

That's Jonah's rationalization, not his real reason. Look back in a book like Amazing Spider-Man #10 or so, when Jonah admits to himself that Spider-Man is ten times the man that JJJ himself is. It is JJJ's jealousy of Spider-Man that drives his feud. He might feel less strongly about heroes who do it and get paid (most of the Avengers for much of Marvel history) or for those who reap some personal glory (non-secret ID characters like the FF), but never mistake Jonah for a reasonable, respectable man. His choices over the years have proven that any system of morals he might claim as his own is flimsy at best.

Eric

There are some stories where serial killer or smart killer types do have a game they play with a certain officer who either busted them long ago, or else failed to and they mock them for it.

The supervillains are often looney-tunes, super pridful individuals, or guys who play games for games sake.

They also are super cool characters-so we want them to come back, so they keep getting busted by the same guy, so revenge makes sense.

In a cop show, the villains aren't particularly memorable-the cop is, and the process is. But there's always some new nameless thug next week, committing different crimes, so the police can solve that crime.

OK, here's another possible angle on JJJ. Not necessarily something that has to happen, just something that occurs to me.

I've known some people who had fairly prejudiced opinions about people of different races, religions, sexualities. Some of them hung onto these feelings forever.

However, some of them became much more reasonable after they actually got to know someone that they were prejudiced against. When it was someone they cared about, their opinions had to shift to account for the fact that they wanted what was best for that person.

A classic example of this in a public figure is Dick Cheney. Looking at every other opinion he has, he *should* hate homosexuals and care nothing about gay rights. However, that's not how he is, because someone he cares about is gay, so he has to accept them.

JJJ has always had a different relationship with Peter Parker than he's had with Spider-Man. It's been gruff, but there have also been times when he's been very supportive of Peter. I don't expect him to throw his arms open and give Spidey a hug. However, it would be very interesting if they had a meeting in the near future that wasn't filled with the predictable anger.

Does JJJ look at the situation as Peter Parker revealing he's Spider-Man, or as Spider-Man revealing he's Peter Parker? They were two people before, which one does he see when he looks at Peter now? A part of me thinks that JJJ has some degree of fatherly feelings towards Peter.

I was really surprised to read some of these comments, in that I thought it was incredibly obvious that this is what Marvel was going to do.

Aunt May knows, she's not going to have a heart attack. his family lives in a fortress, so no fear of reprisals, plus marvel's new strategem is breaking the old rules. (Tell wolverine's origin, bring back Bucky, etc.)

All the press leading up to this story was telegraphing this moment.

Why the shock?

Who said anything about Krypton?

What? You think he was throwing giant S-shields around the Smallville High practice field?

Peter Parker's photos of Spider Man are legitimate from a photographic point of view. He took them, and usually at real events. There is an ethical problem from a journalistic point of view since he is like a reporter who creates his own news. If he belongs to a guild he might be criticized. But I thik there are other reporters who got involved in their own stories.

It's gotta be a joke. >>

As far as I know there hasn't yet been a DVD release with an audio commentary. The release of Superman II a few years back had no extras including no audio commentary. There's a version coming out later this year that will have an audio commentary, is that what you're referring to? That version will also have the original "Donner" cut of the film, it's possible that cut may have the Micky, but what was release in the theathers and what's currently on video and DVD does not have it.

My feeling on Reed's support of the SRA is that it does make sense for him, because he's a reasonable man. If you were to come to him, with a system that seemed to be a reasonable way of dealing with a situation like this, a system of rules and regulations for super-heroes, he'd see it as a good idea--and any concerns with it could be rationally, reasonably discussed. Security of the system? Reed can work around that. Autonomy of the heroes? Just needs a good system of checks and balances, that's all. All of these things can be worked out rationally, and the basic idea is sound.

And if people weren't willing to see reason, if they just said, "No, this is a bad idea on principle and I'm going to fight it..." Well, you'd need to stop them. After all, they're going against the rule of law, they're behaving irrationally, and they're threatening to undermine what could be a major and fundamental improvement to the way heroes work...and all on some point of principle that they're not even willing to discuss. It's a shame, but it's necessary.

Of course, I predict this will allll change once Sue gets involved. Reed's not emotional about very much, but he's emotional about his wife.

I think it is a dumb idea.

I like a kind of realism in my comics, but if I want to read "realistic" superheroes, I read a book like Watchman. At least it had a definite end and closure. Which is impossible in a serial like Spider-Man or Superman. At the end of the day there will be the next issue - as long at it sells.

Also it rather violates the rules of the genre. I am not saying you can´t do this, of course you can, but what is the point? Secret identities are a vital part of the mythos, it is an important fantasy for the reader. Part of the appeal was - and is IMHO - that the costumed hero could be everyone. It is a fantasy appealing to the kid in us - how cool would it be to put on a mask and do things you couldn´t do in your everyday life. Why killing the sense of wonder this concepts have? Does anybody really think that this kind of literature would have last this long without the duality of Superman/Clark Kent or Batman/Bruce Wayne?

Now unmasking Peter Parker and making him what - a celebrity hero? - is an idea I have frankly read too often to work up any interest for. Been there, done that. Some goes for the idea with the superhero-registration. From X-Men to Watchman. In the first it was pointless, as it never got resolved, in the second it made an uncomfortable ending. And an ending is a thing, which just isn´t possible in superhero comics.

Posted by: Andy at June 17, 2006 01:40 PM

I think it is a dumb idea.

Martin Goodman, former publisher of Marvel Comics, thought Spider-Man was a dumb idea. He nixed it, and it wouldn't have seen the light of day if Stan Lee hadn't snuck it into the final issue of Amazing Fantasy, a comic that was being cancelled due to low sales.

I like a kind of realism in my comics, but if I want to read "realistic" superheroes, I read a book like Watchman. At least it had a definite end and closure. Which is impossible in a serial like Spider-Man or Superman. At the end of the day there will be the next issue - as long at it sells.

Why does Spider-Man's unmasking inject a level of realism into the book that wasn't there before? Is "unmasking" an issue for people in the real world?

Also it rather violates the rules of the genre. I am not saying you can´t do this, of course you can, but what is the point? Secret identities are a vital part of the mythos, it is an important fantasy for the reader. Part of the appeal was - and is IMHO - that the costumed hero could be everyone. It is a fantasy appealing to the kid in us - how cool would it be to put on a mask and do things you couldn´t do in your everyday life. Why killing the sense of wonder this concepts have? Does anybody really think that this kind of literature would have last this long without the duality of Superman/Clark Kent or Batman/Bruce Wayne?

How can you not see the irony of your argument? Martin Goodman told Stan Lee that Spider-Man would never work because it violated conventions of the genre that were vital. Goodman believed that teen-agers had to be side-kicks and that no one wanted to read about super-heroes that had problems like you and I.

He was wrong. Spider-Man succeeded despite being different.

Yet here we are, with people asserting that Spider-Man, a character whose creation changed the status quo, now represents a status quo that should remain inviolate. How can you not see the irony?

And before anyone else bothers to point out that Spidey's unmasking is not groundbreaking, please don't -- I know that, and it's irrelevant. The point is that some people are arguing that Spider-Man's essential formula must remain intact, even though Spider-Man's creation violated the super-hero formula that existed at the time.

Painfully, painfully ironic.

Now unmasking Peter Parker and making him what - a celebrity hero? - is an idea I have frankly read too often to work up any interest for. Been there, done that. Some goes for the idea with the superhero-registration. From X-Men to Watchman. In the first it was pointless, as it never got resolved, in the second it made an uncomfortable ending. And an ending is a thing, which just isn´t possible in superhero comics.

Huh? Individual story arcs within super-hero comic book series end all the time. You're confusing the idea of an "ending" with complete closure, which isn't possible or even desirable in serialized fiction like this.

As far as "uncomfortable endings" go, I like fiction that makes me uncomfortable and challenges me. Otherwise I get bored. But I think that falls under the "different strokes" category. If you like "comfortable" fiction, well, the world's big enough for both you and I.

I for one, am kind of digging the reveal. Peter's in a completely new place in his professional and superhero career. He is more able now than ever to keep his family safe. Why not step up, put his money where his mouth is, and support what he thinks is best for his world?

1Martin Goodman, former publisher of Marvel Comics, thought Spider-Man was a dumb idea.
*****
So what? because one person at one time thought an idea was dumb, no one else can say an idea is dumb, there are no dumb ideas?

This won't last anyway. I'd be shocked if it lasted more than a year or two. But as a lasting idea, a fundamental change to the status quo of this character is a horrible way to break the character for future generations to enjoy-especially a character who has remained popular througout the years. The fact that spider-man changed the rules for superheroes has nothing to do with changing some rules that exist for Spider-man-especially the secret identity thing which is not only played out with other heroes, but when Spider-man has the most interesting other identity there is. There was always Spider-man and Peter Parker, different dynamic, and different reasons for reading the book-you read for both. The cool thing was, his identity mattered unlike Captain America, his identity was fully formed and different from the superhero, unlike Bruce Wayne over the last few years whose a sham, and iunlike Clark Kent, he had a different life as peter then as Spider-man-whereas Clark and Superman had the exact same friends in his own book.

Joe Quesada once chided DC for being unable to sell Superman-the most recognizable character in the world. Tney had to do stunt after stunt after stunt, until no one cared anymore. Unfortuantely, Marvel can no longer sell their flagship character in any great numbers without stunt after stunt-in a time when population keeps increasing, and he has two $400 mil movies, they are lucky to sell 70,000 of his comic. So they try stunt after stunt-Spider-totem, Aunt may knows worked for awhile, Sins Past blew up in their faces, you got House of M. now The Other ans knew powers and a cosutume sell mpre, even as JQ and JMS admit The Other was botched, and before there is even a breather, now Civil War and the reveal. And eventually people burn out and the stunts won't work. THere seems to be a lack of long time thinking. Spider-man always attracted a lot of casual comic fans and he always sold well when he had a good artist and solid written stories, whether he had stunts or not.
I hope long term this completely blows up in their faces, frankly. We need new blood in there, JMS is shot, Joe Quesada has fallen victim to his own success, and some new blood is needed. The Clone Saga was a change in the status quo too "The spider-,man for the last 20 years isn't the real deal" That worked well-once it was clear that was the direction, loyal and casual fans fled, and Spidey still hasn't recovered. Plus, the next hyped event has to be even more to match or surpass the last-having changed his powers, had an eyeball eaten, gotten a change to his origin, new costume again, and now revealed his identity, what next shocing thing can we do? Give him cancer? Have MJ raped and burnt to a crisp? Perhaps Spider-man will reveal that he is gay now that he is out of the closet with his identity-whatever will get the attention of the press for a short term boost and to get mainstream attention which is mostly useless because people can't even find comics anymore?

I don't believe this is even semi-permanent, but even then, then it just becomes mindless hype. If it is, it just becomes another thing to count down for the retcon-the only question is it undone in a couple of years like the clone, or 10 years like Hal Jordan.

Get some good writers and artists, maybe some young blood, tell some good stories, make Spidey fun to read about (when did he become completely miserable all the time, in the suit or out?), make Peter Parker a fun, but worried individual, bulk up the supporting cast, give the married couple some other couples to hang with, and let it go. It will sell.

Bill Myers said:

"How can you not see the irony of your argument? Martin Goodman told Stan Lee that Spider-Man would never work because it violated conventions of the genre that were vital. Goodman believed that teen-agers had to be side-kicks and that no one wanted to read about super-heroes that had problems like you and I.

He was wrong. Spider-Man succeeded despite being different."

Ah, yes, the classic 'they laughed at the Wright Brothers' argument. "People said Great Idea A was bad, and it was good; people are saying this idea is bad, therefore it must be good." It's an obvious error to anyone who thinks about it for any length of time.

Or, as they say, 'Remember, they laughed at the Marx Brothers too'.

He was wrong. Spider-Man succeeded despite being different."

Ah, yes, the classic 'they laughed at the Wright Brothers' argument. "People said Great Idea A was bad, and it was good; people are saying this idea is bad, therefore it must be good." It's an obvious error to anyone who thinks about it for any length of time."

I don't see anyone saying that except you.

Part of it stems from the fact that Spider-Man didn't succeed "despite" being different. He succeeded BECAUSE he was different. The problem is that, whenever people are presented with something that's different, oftentimes the initial reaction is to respond with disbelief or skepticism or an attitude of "That will never work." Audiences CLAIM they want more of the same, but what makes the biggest splash and is the most successful is that which is measurably different.

I'm not saying it's a good idea BECAUSE it's different. No one is. Instead I think the simple observation is that the kneejerk reaction is that different=bad, and that isn't necessarily the case.

PAD

You have a problem whatever you do.

Keep things the same, you bore the old readers and not really attract new ones.

Gimicky kind of changes followed by a quick backpaddle to safety, get's eveybody's attention, but after a while gets people annoyed, while harming the integrity and credibility of the writing.

Making long term changes and you risk loosing long term but conservative audiences while at the same time offering new readers a story too complicated and too distant from the original template.

+ comics already seem to be drawing smaller audiences. Apparently less people want to get into a universe with such a complicated history.

I personaly like a growing and changing story. But it is always a risk.

But look at the bright side. Since you're damned what ever you do, it is worth persuing this twist in the Spiderman mythology and see where it takes you. It may end like Spidy's marriage or the clone, who knows? There are surely some good stories to