PeterDavid.net

I loved that Starbuck hugged Tigh and his wife like old friends. Heh, heh. Maybe if you write another novel Peter you can explain how that happened. It's not that I *need* to know. Starbuck and Tigh are pretty similar, and it's not like there's a huge obstacle to them getting along like, say, Starbuck getting Tigh's brother killed. I just think it would be fun to see you write how that happened (and to write Mr. and Mrs. Tigh in general).

BSG is, bar none, my favorite show on TV right now. This show kicks ass. Can't wait for the rest of the DVDs before October's premiere.

Bobby

The Finale was OUTSTANDING!!!!!Way to shake things up.Adama convincing Roslin of the right thing to do was why I LOVE this show.The hard decisions that have to be made and Morality behind it.Much like the abortion issue a few episodes ago.
So does Baltar go down as one of the biggest accidental mass Murderers in history?Geez dude the series opener,the nuke this episode and how many people die with the new season?
Some questions for next season.
What happened with Starbuck and Lee?
Tigh hugs Starbuck???
Where is Helo's number 8(Boomer)?
Where is Tom(Richard Hatch)?
Who is the guy looking for Kara?
What are the Cylon's up too?
Are there more versions now that have time to themselves?
Also general question
There are 12 models of Cylon
I count Lucy Lawless,Six,Boomer,Dean stockwell,Black male Doctor,and two other white male versions did I miss any and do the metal versions count???

Given what's coincidentally going on at DC right now, I got some bonus laughter from seeing the phrase "One year later" pop up on screen.

My favorite moment was when the nuke went off. I loved that because it was Baltar's fault, *again*. So after betraying the human race and almost completely wiping them out, he hands a nuke over to a Cylon and is responsible for another 10,000 deaths. Then later we find out that the Cylons wouldn't have found New Caprica if it hadn't been for that nuclear blast. So even *that* can be traced back to Baltar.

This version of Baltar is just so superior to the original series version. A guy that teams up with an alien enemy so that his entire species can be wiped out? That's hard to believe or understand. I guy who's so determined to get a hot chick into bed that he hands over security codes? Much more believable. I can actually comprehend why he would do these things, and that makes them much scarier.

Battlestar Galactica is the best show currently on television. As PAD notes, it sounds odd to say that. But it is an absolutely stunning series that explores a fascinating premise as well as intriguing themes, including sex, war, politics, the military, religion, and more.

The acting is superb. Honestly, as stunning as Tricia Helfer looks in any given scene, she is an amazing actress. James Callis as Gaius Baltar is always engaging. I loved the scene between Roslin and Baltar in last night's episode. I loved the agony in Mary McDonnell's performance as she realizes that she cannot bring herself to accept the rigged election. "But it's the wrong choice." Amazing.

And that stunning one year leap? It's an immensely risky move, but I love the way the story is headed, as now the "peaceful" Cylons appear to occupy New Caprica. At the same time, I have a little trepidation about the leap, because the last time a show I really loved did something like this, it was the ALIAS 2-year leap at the end of Season 2, and that sent the show in a direction that damn near killed the series (and certainly dampened some of my enthusiasm for the show). I really hope Ronald D. Moore and David Eick can pull this off.

October is going to seem like an eternity away. :)

1I wish I could get into BSG, but I can't. Well, that's not right: Yes it is very well written and the plots are very timely, but the characters I like are Cylons. I mean Starbuck is good for a human. But the rest seem personify humanity at it's worst.
I think Peter hit the nail on the head when he said there isn't much humor on this show: I mean just 58,000 people survived and not one commedian?
I also hate what they do to Boomer and I hope she takes revenge soon.

I agree - BSG is at least one of the best dramas on television. In this it stands in stark contrast to Babylon 5, which I think was only good relative to other SF shows. Even relative to such a melodramatic mainstream drama as "ER", B5 wasn't so much a drama as a melodrama. BSG is good in spite of being SF...

Interesting... all the positive comments here and at Keith RA DeCandido's LJ, it's completely the opposite - he and all his commenters hated it.
I haven't seen it yet (just spoiled myself. No big). So I can't comment on the finale, but this season has not been as great as the first season.

Well, crap. I keep forgetting that we here in Canada are several episodes behind. So I read the post, thinking "I just watched the latest episode tonight. Spoilers, indeed. Bring it on." Damn.

PAD, do you ever listen to the podcasts from Ron Moore? The worm under Adama's nose has something to do with the actors history.

In fact if anyone here hasn't listened to the podcast, it's fascinating to hear their reasons and thoughts on this episode. And it did rock.

What happened with Starbuck and Lee?
they pretty much showed that when Starbuck got back to the Galactica and was drinking with her sport studd. Lee was the third part of the triangle and Kara made her choice and it wasn't Lee.

Tigh hugs Starbuck???
According to pod cast over the year they made up. The idea was on purpose to show how these people had progressed over the year.

Where is Helo's number 8(Boomer)?
To be answered next season which sucks. Still in the brig?

Where is Tom(Richard Hatch)?
Will be back next season.

Who is the guy looking for Kara?
Lea Baun (sp?) the cylon that Kara tortured and was flushed out an airlock by Laura in season one. Is also the cylon that Adama killed in the mini series.

What are the Cylon's up too?
Well yah, that's the 100 dollar question.

Are there more versions now that have time to themselves?
What do you mean?

There are 12 models of Cylon
You are correct, Lea Baun(sp?) and the other is named Doral

Who would ever have thought that the cheese fest, rip off of Star Wars in the late 70's could ever be turned into the best show on television! Now we have to wait a long 7 months, ugh!

I'm just glad they appear to have fixed two big problems I had with the Cylons; their wanting to be human and being religious fanatics.

PAD, do you ever listen to the podcasts from Ron Moore? The worm under Adama's nose has something to do with the actors history.
And what would that be?

I've been hearing good things about this show, especially in that it's not trying to be a science-fiction show, per se.

As a guy who's favorite three shows right now are THE SHIELD, VERONICA MARS and ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT, would anyone be so kind as to draw on these shows for comparative purposes for BATTLESTAR GALACTICA?

There's only one plus to the end of Galactica's second season, and that's to make room for the American debut of the new Doctor Who series. Friday nights on Sci-Fi are about to get even more interesting....

From James Blight:

As a guy who's favorite three shows right now are THE SHIELD, VERONICA MARS and ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT, would anyone be so kind as to draw on these shows for comparative purposes for BATTLESTAR GALACTICA?

The only other show I watch (aside from BOONDOCKS, on occasion) is VERONICA MARS, so I'll take it from there. MARS is amazingly well-plotted; both this season and last feel like one 22-hour movie broken into sections, more than an actual serialized series. GALACTICA isn't as tightly plotted, from what I've seen (mostly season 2).
The strengths of GALACTICA and MARS are similar, in that both series are very noir-esqe in outlook and feel (at times, MARS moreso, of course). MARS is funnier, and the scope is obviously lessened, both because of setting and plot arcs, but both give it a more grounded feeling that GALACTICA lacks; there's no Veronica/Keith relationship that acts as a backbone on GALACTICA.
But that's also a strength of GALACTICA; when Moore et. al. kick it, they really tear through everyone's pre-conceptions of what a series can be, what people can and will do under times of stress. There’s NO promises on GALACTICA, and a real sense of fear pervades the series; I recall watching my first few episodes with my brother (the start of season two, FYI), and constantly growing at him “they’re SCREWED, these people can barely get themselves together, much less protect humanity!”
Anyone could die. If they had the Cylons wipe humanity off the face of the universe, it would be totally believable. This is all of Humanity as the crew of FIREFLY, on the ragged edge of the ‘verse, and there’s no place or time for much of a sense of humor. VERONICA, of course, is on the ragged edge of a teen life, as well (and I understand Vic from THE SHIELD is under similar constraints and issues). Much of the plots and the drama from GALACTICA comes from that same dark place that MARS draws it’s strengths from, and they are very complimentary shows.

For those not watching VERONICA MARS: This is amazing drama, and a shocker in the same way GALACTICA is for the new viewer. I’m not much for hawking shows, and every series is flawed, but…wow. Netflix the Season One DVDs, and see if you don’t believe me!

----Woodrow

Well, while I feel that BSG is one of the best dramas on the air since the Aaron Sorkin era West Wing, I cannot help but feel a sense of trepidation about the forthcoming October season opener. Try as I might, I just can't help but to be afraid that since the 'One Year Later' thing kicked off after Baltar put his head down and went to sleep, this whole thing might just turn out to be an "Oh, I just had the craziest dream" scenario. I know, I know, thus far Ron Moore has shaken the yoke of his Star Trek past (no offense PAD) and been above that sort of cheesiness. But still, the fear persists. Anyone else here old enough to remember Pam Ewing waking up to find formerly dead husband Bobby alive and well in the shower?

PAD, you've seen future plots, you're in the know. Would it be possible for you to dispel my fears and ease my mind without a breach of contract?

In any case, at least we know that time travel is not an option. Is it? (Again, no offense intended PAD. STNF: Double Time was gold.)

Third_side, I was thinking the same thing as soon as the story jumped one year. However, we didn't just see things from Baltar's POV, but from everyone else. So unless everyone's having the same dream, I believe it's for real.

..And I'm old enough to remember that the death of Bobby in Dallas was felt by every character in the show too, even in the spin-off, Knott's landing. I feel this case is different.

In this it stands in stark contrast to Babylon 5, which I think was only good relative to other SF shows.

Apples and oranges. The comparison is not fair to either show.

Since I don't have cable, I have only seen a few episodes of BG. But I fully agree it is very good. I look forward to getting a DVD set and watching them all of the way through.

I saw every episode of B5 as it came out. And for me BG doesn't live up to the epic scope. But that is because I see B5 playing a different role and out for a different purpose. I sincely doubt BG will touch me like B5 on some of the core issues. But in the few episodes I have seen of BG, I think the acting and the writing has been quite good, better than many B5 episodes. (But keep in mind that B5 managed a lot on a shoestring budget without being on a network for the first 4 years.)

Bottom line, I think both are great shows, and it is not necessary to say B5 was not that good to make Battlestar Galactica (2nd Edition) look better. If you want to compare apples to apples, you should talk about BG versus Star Trek since Ronald Moore was involved with both series. BG makes me wonder how good Star Trek could have been if it had been allowed to be revised like they have with BG.

Iowa Jim

It's great to hear that you're a fan of the series PD. Now I'm really looking forward to your novel.

>As a guy who's favorite three shows right now are THE SHIELD, VERONICA MARS and ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT, would anyone be so kind as to draw on these shows for comparative purposes for BATTLESTAR GALACTICA?

I think if a person liked THE SHIELD, there's a good chance they'd like BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, unless they have a newjerk reaction against all science fiction. Like THE SHIELD, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA is a drama where the characters and situations are far from black and white. The primary dilemma of the show is- with the entire human race under attack by religeous extremists (the Cylons), how far will they go to ensure their own survival? Will they "do whatever it takes?" Sacrifice democracy? Human rights? Honor? Integrity? Do they even DESERVE to survive if they give up all these things? It's a very post 9/11 show with no easy answers; they're flawed people facing a very real threat to their very existence. And like THE SHIELD, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA has a lot of compelling characters, fabulous actors and strong writing.

It's worth renting the DVDs. A word of warning: the four hour pilot/miniseries that kicks off Galactica drags a bit. That's certainly not something that could ever be said about the series itself though.

I am also one of those who was blown away by the BSG season finale. I will admit though I have to wonder if this wasn’t a “jump the shark” moment as the direction the series will take now with what happened will be in marked contrast to what has come before.

There are a couple of things I’m curious to see the thoughts of other fans on:

1. Speaking of Moore’s Star Trek past, does anyone else find there to be a remarkable similarity between the Baltar character and the Bashir character on DS9? I could almost see Alexander Siddig in the role, the actors even look slightly the same! I wonder if Moore had originally thought of casting Siddig in the Baltar role.

2. Although I missed two episodes this season (Captain’s Hand and the first part of the season ender), I was somewhat surprised they killed off the Pres’ aid “Billy.” Anyone willing to take bets on whether or not he winds up coming back as one of the missing Cyclon models?

I think Billy's death had a lot to do with the actor deciding to move on. Apparently he was getting a lot of offers that conflicted with his BSG stuff. The behind the scenes reason for him not joining Roslyn when she split the fleet was that the actor was shooting a pilot.

"Interesting... all the positive comments here and at Keith RA DeCandido's LJ, it's completely the opposite - he and all his commenters hated it."

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even when it's clearly wrong, as is the case there.

PAD

"Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even when it's clearly wrong, as is the case there."

You're joking, right?

What's the joke? I think by any reasonable critical measure, BSG is a brilliant series, and if people think otherwise, well, they're entitled to, but I think they're wrong.

PAD

I think that the one year later bit was a great way of accounting for the fact that the characters have now aged by about the same amount that the actors have. I wonder if the reason that Walt disappeared at the beginning of Lost is that the kid was visibly maturing too quickly for two months that the characters have been on the island.

The freaky part, for me? The parts we didn't see (one year jump) encompass a longer period of time than the parts we did see (first and second season). How much did we bloody well miss?

We missed watching the entire dreary process of these people setting up their Hooverville, trying to scratch a living out of the unforgiving soil of this barely-habitable world, and slowly losing all faith in their elected president - you know, the sort of thing you could pick up by combining the news from Iraq and the US...

Frankly, I'm just as happy they skipped over that part. It might have been interesting for a week or two, but it would have gotten boring fast, and we would have lost the immediacy of the thematic link between Laura's actions, and Baltar's selling out humanity for a piece of ass for the third time. Even when these people try to do the right thing, they can wind up doing wrong...

Plus, apparently, several folks leaving the military, Tyrell and Callie hooking up, etc.

"Tyrell and Callie hooking up"

That was probably the least surprising one-year-later change for me. I was actually expecting them to get together from the moment she forgave him when her jaw was wired shut. I was dissapointed that she didn't go over and give him a hug while he was apologizing. So their getting together wasn't surprising, but it was very satisfying.

Really though, when they were first showing the settlement, I just keep thinking "who's pregnant, who's pregnant?" Given the settlers' situation, repopulating the species seemed like a top priority, so I wouldn't have been surprised if every female cast member had been pregnant.

The biggest surprise to me was how inhospitable the planet looked. Maybe that was just the dead of winter, but my first impression was that this was a pretty miserable place to live. That brought me back to my earlier favorite thing, the fact that everything is Baltar's fault. :)

"We missed watching the entire dreary process of these people setting up their Hooverville, trying to scratch a living out of the unforgiving soil of this barely-habitable world, and slowly losing all faith in their elected president - you know, the sort of thing you could pick up by combining the news from Iraq and the US..."

We also missed an entire year of fans bitching "Why are they wasting a whole season on this stupid plaaaanet?! When are they going to wind up getting back out into space, looking for earth, which we KNOW they're gonna do sooner or later anyway?"

PAD

""Interesting... all the positive comments here and at Keith RA DeCandido's LJ, it's completely the opposite - he and all his commenters hated it."

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even when it's clearly wrong, as is the case there.

PAD"

Agreed that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I enjoy reading both your LJs and find the differing POVs interesting.

"We also missed an entire year of fans bitching "Why are they wasting a whole season on this stupid plaaaanet?! When are they going to wind up getting back out into space, looking for earth, which we KNOW they're gonna do sooner or later anyway?" "

I agree with you 100% PAD. I'm glad they jumped right into the new dynamic. My previous comments aside, I look forward to seeing a few episodes of humans living under Cylon rule. With both Adamas in space pimping out their Battlestars in preparation for a little payback, who'll rally the troops on New Caprica? Will it be obvious choices like Starbuck and Chief Tyrol or a dark horse like Col. Tigh? And who'll turn into a Cylon collaborator? Obvious choice there is Ellen Tigh but my money is on LT. Gaeta. Never really trusted that guy. And then, after a few episodes of dramatic tension and build-up we'll be treated to a nicely prepared and well-deserved REVOLUTION!

Or I could be completely wrong. The Cylons could simply be there to tell the humans about God, drop off a couple of copies of the Watchtower and be on their merry way. And the Adama boys, wrongly assuming that the rest of humanity was boned anyway, could have just taken the remaining fleet to look for that casino planet from the second episode of the old series.

The moustache unfortunate? Edward James Olmos' moustache is one of the most iconic hair elements in entertainment history! Right up there with Connery's beard and Shatner's toupee. I almost wept when I saw he didn't have it in the original mini, and I almost wept with joy when I saw THE MOUSTACHE was back. Man, that thing deserves its own screen credit.

Now all we need is for him to bring back the same hair from "The West Wing." "They arrested me because I look like my name is Roberto Mendoza, and I have come to rob your home."

Perhaps an exaggeration. But still, Olmos minus the moustache is simply Not Right.

I must confess, until the last few minutes of the show, I thought the entire last hour might have been some sortof dream sequence for Baltar, because I couldn't imagine this "one year later" theme.

Nice touch.

"What's the joke? I think by any reasonable critical measure, BSG is a brilliant series, and if people think otherwise, well, they're entitled to, but I think they're wrong."

They're not wrong, you just don't agree with them. There's no such thing as an objectively great TV show, so their opinions can't possibly be wrong.

I've never seen it, so I can't comment on the show (although recently I tried watching the original series for the first time since I was a kid, and I was bored out of my mind... somehow I remembered it being better than it was).

Mister PJ

When I first saw Baltar, I said to myself, "Hey, Siddig is on this show!"

It is classic sci-fi cliffhanger. The way out of this corner just seems impossible from the surface. I also like the twist. The survivors are conquered, not with a bang, but a wimper. All because they forgot even recent history. Its a slight shock to do it that way but very effective. Dean Stockwell...good to see him back on TV.

PAD said >>BSG doesn't have a ton of humor in it...

Agreed, plus the first part (the previous episode) had a very funny (and laden with dramatic irony) line where Dean Stockwell (hmm should he be labeled the funny Cylon model?) tells Tyrol that he's not a Cylon... "I haven't seen you at any of the meetings" When I saw that line, the "Hmm...?" button was pressed, but then again, with 6 models (now 5) left unaccounted for, BSG viewers have to wonder about every new character being a Cylon skinjob...

but my single favorite moment of the finale? Seeing pretty boy Apollo having become fat LOL (what can I say? It's a schadenfreudish joy)

eddie

"Interesting... all the positive comments here and at Keith RA DeCandido's LJ, it's completely the opposite - he and all his commenters hated it."

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even when it's clearly wrong, as is the case there.

PAD

Not the "Son Of Peter David"! Then again, I guess you gotta expect kids to rebel against their parents.

Stockwell had the funniest lines. In addition to "I'm not a fracking cylon ... oh, well." there was "Take me to your leader." and in fact, his opening "pep talk" to Tyrol in part 1 was hoot also.

The moustache: In scifi, facial hair = evil! That's why bearded Tyrol attacked Cally.

As far as comparisons to other shows, it's kinda like BABYLON 5 meets THE SHIELD. There's an epic arc going on with the Cylon's "Plan" for humanity and their own growth as a sentient race reminscent of BABYLON 5 while it also focuses in tightly on the flaws and strengths and flaws of the characters following essentially a holocaust, but worst, the end of their world, their worlds, and how they struggle to survive. D

The closest RL analog would likely be some of the "Third World" countries, East Berlin during the Cold War years, Europe during WW2, here in the America, The South during Civil War or the Native Americans during 19th century Westward Expansion, or the Aztecs in the face of the Spanish Conquistordores, or down throughout history as one nation conquered another--as the "End of the World" as they then knew it, came to fruition.

Under THAT much pressure, the worst in people comes easily to the forefront. The CHALLENGE is to beat back the angels of our lesser nature. It's not enough to survive, you have to have to purpose, a reason. You have to hope.

The search for that hope, that reason, that purpose--for BOTH humans and Cylons--is the point of BATTLESTAR GALACTICA.

-- Ken from Chicago

I hated the 1978 show, and this one tries too hard to be "The West Wing of Outer Space."

GIVE ME RERUNS OF STAR TREK ANY TIME.

I kept thinking "Relax, It's all Baltar's dream. It's just a dream. PLEASE let it be a dream." But by the end I was hoping it wasn't, because, damn, what a great twist.

And I agree the mustache has got to go.

Well, Rob (and Keith DeCandido), all I can say is, Anderson's Law!

("There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, won't hate it. The opposite is also true.")

So, PAD, are you going to be reviewing Doctor Who starting Friday night? :)

Ok, it's a year behind for those of us with no patience, but I need to watch this series again before the next one starts in a couple of months in the UK.

Given the novel you just finished for BS: G; did you know what happened in this season finale before it aired?

"They're not wrong, you just don't agree with them. There's no such thing as an objectively great TV show, so their opinions can't possibly be wrong."

Of course there is such a thing as an objectively great TV show. Off the top of my head: Playhouse 90. MASH. Hill Street Blues. The Twilight Zone. I, Claudius. By any critical measure, by any standard of excellence, these and many more are objectively great.

People are always saying that there's no such thing as right and wrong opinions. Nonsense. Putting aside the obvious counters of the Flat Earth Society or the guys who firmly believe the moon landings were faked, I think there are some shows that are great, and the audience is divided into those who recognize that greatness, and those who don't. We can try to convince these people otherwise. We can explain to them the greatness that they're missing. We can point out why their critiques are off-base. We can even accept the notion that the show has specific aspects that make it less than appealing to them. Doesn't mean the show is not objectively great.

If some schmuck looks at the "Mona Lisa" and announces it to be a piece of crap and not remotely art, that doesn't mean it's not great. Just means the guy's an idiot. An opinion can't be wrong? John Simon once described a film "painful in three separate ways: an unfunny comedy, poor moviemaking and embarrassing self-revelation. It is a film so shapeless, sprawling, repetitious and aimless as to seem to beg for oblivion." The film was "Annie Hall." He was wrong. Wrong in his assessment, and wrong in his belief in the film's eventual fate. A critic in 1931 described a new film thusly: "I regret to report that it is just another movie, so thoroughly mixed with water as to hae a horror content of about .0001 percent." That was "Frankenstein." Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

There has to be such a thing as objective greatness; otherwise anything can be dismissed out of hand by anyone, and greatness doesn't mean anything.

PAD

I feel the exact opposite, right down to the moustache.

" Baltar's selling out humanity for a piece of ass for the third time"

No no, clearly this time it was for two pieces of ass. That makes it all worth while!!!

I think that, since they've never said for sure, the centurions are definitely a model and it is my opinion that the raiders and basestars could be as well, given their cybernetic structures. Probably won't be the case as it is fun to throw out the human models as shockers. I think Dean Stockwell deserves an Emmy for his role in the two part finale. I was curious about him in the first part, but not to the point where I wasn't floored (because I was) when he showed up on Caprica.

I finally broke down and watched it...

why the HELL couldn't someone tell me those silver robots with those red flashy eyes were back from the 70's....!??!?

I have a question:

Why did it take the cylons a frakkin year (after they saw the nuclear explosion signature) to get to New Caprica? I thought they had jump capabilities too?

They (the cylons) were a light year away when they saw the signature. They have faster than light travel so got thier pretty quickly. The nuclear signature however, does not have jump capability. At a light year away, it would have taken a year for it to be detectable that far out.

"What happened with Starbuck and Lee?
they pretty much showed that when Starbuck got back to the Galactica and was drinking with her sport studd. Lee was the third part of the triangle and Kara made her choice and it wasn't Lee."

I would have to disagree. I think something far more serious happened between them than the incident we saw right after Starbuck and Anders returned to Galactica. Yes, Starbuck was rude, and she was drunk, but I can't see Lee writing off their entire friendship because of it, not when he was involved with Dualla at the same time. Something far worse happened. Something so devastating to their relationship that even Tigh knows about it.

BTW, isn't it just "Battlestar Galactica" now, with no colon after Battlestar?

I found the finale to be jarring. Jarring in a way totally alike, and totally unalike, the first season finale. Everything changed. Change is dangerous, and I can't fault the producers for taking the show in this direction. As enjoyable as it is, you can only get so much out of "fleet in space looking for Earth" before you have to get to Earth. Which, as anyone that's seen the original can tell you, pretty much ends the show.

So, it's a logical place to go, and it makes sense to skip over the whole establishing of the colony process. They summed up the important events in just a few scenes, with every fear Rosalin and Bill had coming true, and a few more to boot. Baltar's fall...if you can call reverting to his natural state a fall...caught me a little by surprise.

Like DCs OYL jump, it sets up a whole bunch of interesting reveals in the coming season. If I didn't have Dr. Who to get me through, Oct. would be so far away.

"They (the cylons) were a light year away when they saw the signature. They have faster than light travel so got thier pretty quickly. The nuclear signature however, does not have jump capability. At a light year away, it would have taken a year for it to be detectable that far out."

Ah. It was my undertanding that they found the signature right away, simply because I assumed that the Pegasus Six cylon copy had been programmed to blow the nuclear bomb ...

Ah. It was my understanding that they found the signature right away, simply because I assumed that the Pegasus Six cylon copy had been programmed to blow the nuclear bomb...

Hmm. I don't know if we can assume her detonating the the explosive was planned. We've seen that the human type Cylons can think and act independently of their programming.

"Hmm. I don't know if we can assume her detonating the the explosive was planned. We've seen that the human type Cylons can think and act independently of their programming."

And we've seen that the Six andd Eight models are capable of things outside the box. Gina was traumatized, and then traumatized. She split from whatever programming she had. And as they cylons sort of said, in making themselves human, they made themselves too human. The Chief's Sharon didn't even know what she was. Her sleeper programming was faulty. Even after she Downloaded, she still resisted the idea that she was a Cylon. And another 8 had a child.

Really, all the depths that this storylines alone make the show worth watching. They didn't need to add a ton of cliffhangers and reveals to get me to come back.

Hmmm is right!

Well now I wonder what her motive was?

Oh those sneaky Cylons. I don't necessarily think they act independantly, they're just sleepers. Deh I'm cynical that way. I'm always questioning their motives, even the supposed "altruistic" ones like the messianic Baltar's Six and Sharon Who Shot Adama. I still think their recent actions are some how part of the "grand design".

Obviously Pegasus Six was not a sleeper because she knew what she was gonna do before she slept with Baltar.

So I'm back to why did she do it if she wasn't told too?

Ah Gina! I forgot her name!

Faulty sleeper programming? Ok, yes I get that. I suppose they could be thinking outside the box types.

But I still don't trust anything the Cylon's say, especially Baltar's Six ...

I don't think Baltar sold out humanity a third time for a piece of ass. After the fleet jumped, he didn't really have a choice on whether to surrender or not.

My first thought about the 1 year later was that it was Starbuck's dream. She mentioned not wanting to wake up in another farm while on Caprica. The the Cylons simply left. I thought that's where the dream started. Still, Starbuck wouldn't know about Baltar seeing Six since she's all in his mind.

"So I'm back to why did she do it if she wasn't told too?"

She was suicidal. After months of torture and rape that drove her to catatonia she was no longer truly sane, even by Cylon standards. Remember when she was a captive on Peagasus, how she not only begged Baltar to kill her, she also told him how to destroy the resurrection ship? She wants *lot* of people to die along with her.

The lesson of the story is: don't give nuclear bombs to your enemy, especially if people from your side have spent a few months torturing and raping her.

The world you're describing, Peter, is one I would never want to live in. It smacks of some alarming form of artistic fascism. I've heard the "objective greatness" argument before, and it has never sounded like anything other than an unfortunate mix of insecurity and arrogance -- insecurity over the possibility that if enough people disagree with you, maybe it means that your own opinion isn't valid; and arrogance in assuming that what you believe to be great is an inarguable fact that is true for everyone. But we all have ways of dealing with people whose opinions and beliefs we have trouble tolerating -- that's just yours.

So am I to understand that Battlestar Galactica is an objectively great show? That your opinion is the correct one and those of its detractors are incorrect? I don't understand. How do we determine who is correct and who is incorrect? Is there some sort of test? Or is there a governing body that determines these things? If so, then it really would be artistic fascism.

Art is not meant to be objectified and quantified. Doing so defeats the whole purpose. Art is a deeply personal, subjective force that either speaks to your or it doesn't. No two people see the same work of art in the same way. Even two people who love the same work love it in different ways, for different reasons.

Incidentally, The Twilight Zone has some brilliant episodes, and some episodes that are appallingly awful, so I wouldn't even call it a subjectively great show. And why is the Mona Lisa invariably brought up as the paradigm of artistic greatness? It's not famous for being great, it's famous for being famous. I like Annie Hall, but I have no problem with someone thinking it's unfunny (humor is even more subjective than art) or shapeless, and I have to agree that Frankenstein is worthless as horror (though it's still a good movie). If you'd just breathe and relax a little and learn to be less bigoted, you'd have no problem with these opinions, either.

"Remember when she was a captive on Peagasus, how she not only begged Baltar to kill her, she also told him how to destroy the resurrection ship? She wants *lot* of people to die along with her."

All right, I can buy that as a possible reason why. Although I'm not completly sold on the idea. Still, it would explain why the cylons didn't know about the explosion until they got the signature and would tie up the ending nice and neat. Seems like an easy out if you ask me.

“BSG doesn't have a ton of humor in it, but this one contained the single funniest moment in the run of the series: Dean Stockwell being hauled to the brig, loudly protesting, "I am NOT a frakking Cylon" until he's suddenly face-to-face with his exact duplicate, at which point he acknowledges the jig is up with a sighed, "Oh...well, okay, then.”

The most recent two episodes are the only one’s I’ve seen of the new _Galactica_ series since a friend loaned me the tape of the miniseries back in 2003; so I didn’t know if every Cylon was aware of its Cylonness. Thus, my initial thought when Brother What’shisname was being hauled to the brig, was that he didn’t _know_ he was a Cylon. I took his “oh...well, okay then” comment as an indication that he took things as they came. Kinda like Oz’s “huh.” in the _Buffy_ episode “Phases”, where he learns he’s a werewolf.

Of course, a few minutes later, it became clear that he did know, and had been trying to bluff.

I liked the episodes I saw, but don’t have cable anymore (I got it to see season 5 of _Babylon 5_ back in 1998, canceled it a year later; and don’t anticipate getting it again anytime soon); so I don’t know that I’ll see much more of _Galactica_. At least on TV. Perhaps one day, I’ll decide to buy the DVDs.

Rick

P.S. Speaking of Cylons, what alien robot decided to put that “Top Model” show on UPN last night at 7 when I was looking forward to seeing _Veronica Mars_?

Sheesh.

Speaking of Cylons, what alien robot decided to put that “Top Model” show on UPN last night at 7 when I was looking forward to seeing _Veronica Mars_?

Probably a Six - they're like that...

If you'd just breathe and relax a little and learn to be less bigoted, you'd have no problem with these opinions, either."

BIGOTED?!

Screw you, asshole. Seriously. Opinionated? Yes. You're calling me a bigot? Sod off. As it occurred to you that the fact that I ALLOW PEOPLE TO POST HERE IS THE OPPOSITE OF INTOLERANCE?

God. Talk about arrogant.

PAD

"So I'm back to why did she do it if she wasn't told too?"

I think you're all overthinking it. I don't think it had anything to do with depression or anything like that. There's two very simple, very obvious reasons why she did what she did.

First of all, she couldn't go down to the surface because she wouldn't be able to stay in hiding as she had been. She'd be recognized as a Cylon--the one who killed Admiral Cain, for that matter--and she'd have the life expectency of a Spinal Tap drummer.

Second, she detonated the bomb specifically BECAUSE she was hoping that it would catch the attention of the Cylons and bring them to the planet. It was the nuclear equivalent of a message in a bottle.

PAD

The Dean Stockwell model cylon likes to live dangerously, if he did know that he was a cylon, based on his joke to the Chief about not seeing him at any of the cylon meetings. I thought he didn't know and his "oh. well okay, then." comment (which was hilarious) was kinda like his sleeper programming going away and his realization that he was a cylon.

Also, I'm seriously hoping everyone who has said October is wrong (but I'm getting nervous since I haven't seen any non-October comments). I thought all of the Sci-Fi Friday shows (SG-1, SG:Atlantis, and BSG) were all coming back with new seasons in July! That's how they did it last year, isn't it?

Bill

Sci-Fi announced the return date as October, and they begin filming new episodes in April.

Kath speculates they needed the additional time to allow Olmos to grow a real mustache rather than that cheesy make-up appliance.

PAD

Actually, PAD, I think you might be overthinking things a bit yourself.

Her life expectancy on the planet would have been low, so she killed herself. Huh? She knew that she would get killed, so she killed herself? No, that doesn't work. Revenge after months of torture is much more straightforward.

I do buy the idea that she saw it as an opportunity to send a message.

Another possibility is that she just didn't get Dean Stockwell's message. The first or second episode of the regular series had a suicide bomber.

Personally, I imagine it as being a combination of factors. The human model cylons are pretty human-like, and human reasoning is usually a muddle of lots of different motivations. But that's just how I imagine it. In actual fact, the real motivation isn't important. From a writing standpoint, I admire how they set up the character so that different people are projecting different motivations onto her actions.

Thanks, PAD (and also, Frak, I gotta wait 7 months instead of 4!). I guess I coulda checked the Sci-Fi website instead of posting here first, but I think I was in denial. Oh well.

Also, on the subject of the facial hair, obviously, it fits Olmos' history better, but wouldn't it have been better for Lee Adama to have been sporting some facial hair. I mean, he's gotta be fairly young to be a Battlestar commander. Wouldn't he jump on anything that reduced the impression of 'too young to be a commander unless your pappy's the admiral'?

Bill

I dunno. I think Lee has such a youthful face that a mustache would just look funny.

PAD

Aint it cool has a link to a website with a Ron Moore interview. Evidently we can expect at least 5 episodes set on New Caprica. But they will get back into space to search for earth.

The possiblities of such plot lines have me salivating. You can assume everyone planet side quite the military, so when they head back out into space, will Heilo still be XO. How about Dee? The chief I can see getting his old job back, evidently there weren't many repair people left aboard ship, but Ty? Will he happily play second fiddle to Heilo? I'm sure there will be new KAGs, will Kara torture the new guy when she is forced to resume being a pilot? Will Laura blow Gaius out an airlock for surrendering? Who will live to get off the planet? And what will they do once they get back out there now that they've lost their main agricultural and pleasure ship?

We just have to wait 7 fracking months! Argh!

First I think the Six that blew up the nuke was VERY unstable.She was probably suicidal and after her being tortured and raped probably wanted as many humans dead as possible .So the nuk does damage and brings her cylon buddies back.
Dean Stockwell .....hope he shows up again,always a fan of Al from Quantum Leap and love a smartass
Cylon.
I do think the situation between Lee and Kara is deeper than just rejection.At least I would think so.
Gaius ....yeah third time a piece of ass has gotten him in trouble,the initial attack,and the double whammy nuke blowing cloud nine ,signaling the Cylons.I hope it was worth it.
My earlier comment about are there more models of Cylon beyond the 12 initial ones ....I mean they have had time away and who knows what they have been up to .
I recently got my brother hooked on the show so the October premiere gives him a chance to play catch up.
Also is it me or does Kara's new man kind of resemble Christian Bale??

I think what is being overlooked with Gina is that here we have Baltar, who was the one person able to give her hope and bring her back from the brink of wanting to die, telling her that he was going to be leaving again. Giving herself to him after having been through the rape and torture on the Pegasus, and then realizing that that wasn't enough and that Baltar would still be leaving her pushed her to the point of ending her life and hurting him who hurt her more than any of the colonials on Pegasus in the process.

"Dean Stockwell .....hope he shows up again,always a fan of Al from Quantum Leap and love a smartass Cylon."

At this point, I'd be willing to bet that anyone they show as a Cylon has agreed to come back for more episodes.

That recent episode on Cylon controlled Caprica had everyone who's ever been a Cylon, I think. Even with that, the crowd scenes still gave me a little chuckle, because they just happened to only have the 6 models we've already seen. But I accepted that as necessary to maintain future surprises. It certainly worked better than it would have at the beginning of the first season, when there were only 4 models.

I think this is also a good point to mention how pleasantly surprised I was by Lucy Lawless. I've had a lot of trouble seeing her as anything other than Xena in the last few years. With her having the blond hair and her natural New Zealand accent, it's been much easier to accept her as this character. She's definitely made a good character.

Here's what I think:

Gina blew up the nuke for revenge pure and simple. she had sex with Baltar as a thank you for all the kindnesses he gave her but I never got the idea that she wanted a relationship with Baltar. Gina found out that the Cylons were not coming back to wipe out humanity so she set off the nuke as her last gasp.

There won't be more than 12 human Cylon models, although there might be one more that's signifigantly different from the other 12 in someway. The number has religious signifigance (12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, etc.), and BSG is big on religious themes. You can find more info on numerology here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology#Twelve

I apologize. It was a poor choice of word, and it wasn't my intention to insult or offend you.

Ok, so Gina wasn't programmed to blow the nuke, she did it for her own reasons, whether for suicide or to alert the other cylons. Well thank goodness the cylons didn't see the signature for a lightyear because it gave baltar just enought time to scrwe up the planet and lull Adama into assurance that the cylons are indeed not coming back, allowing his ships to go to pot.

How convenient for the cylons.

There's something about this plot part that is significant and I can't put my finger on it yet. I can't believe that the writers of that show would make it that easy for the cylons.

And I don't believe that Adama would just sit back and watch his Galactica grow rusty, knowing what Baltar had done in the past.

We didn't get the full scoop folks, but alas, we have to wait till October to see the rest.

(Oh and rumor has it we have to wait till October because they want to synchronize the delivery of BSG with the rest of the world for marketing purposes. Too many people were downloading the eppys which we saw before the rest of the population, instead of waiting to watch them when aired on the telly.)

So Baltar turns out to be an arrogant, imperialist President who shuts down debate by saying "there have been no Cylon attacks in a year!" Meanwhile, he does nothing to keep the people safe and in fact is responsible for weakening their security.
It may just be me, but I find a parallel there.

"So Baltar turns out to be an arrogant, imperialist President who shuts down debate by saying "there have been no Cylon attacks in a year!" Meanwhile, he does nothing to keep the people safe and in fact is responsible for weakening their security.
It may just be me, but I find a parallel there."

So who is the imaginary conscious of Bush whispering in his ear?

>And I don't believe that Adama would just sit back and watch his Galactica grow rusty, knowing what Baltar had done in the past.

I don't think he had a lot of choice. A Battlestar needs people and resources, and he was running out of both. If he challenged Baltar, he could suddenly be facing an investigation of what happened during the election, and Baltar could promote somebody else to admiral. Besides, a year later, even Adama didn't believe the cylons were coming back. And, in fact, clearly something DID happen to the cylons, since when they returned it was NOT to wipe the humans out.

"So who is the imaginary conscious of Bush whispering in his ear?"

I guess that would be Karl Rove.

I really mean that Baltar talks about doing whatever it takes to protect humanity and only doing what is best for them, while in reality he is selling them out.
Just sounds familiar to me.
"ya see, I'm a War President. And I a gotta protect the the people"

Oh, if only Karl Rove were imaginary.

I was kind of surprised that Adama was willing to believe that the cylons weren't coming back so soon. Or that Kara would leave the fleet service so soon. I'm hoping that a lot of these questions will be addressed soon in the next season.

One thing that did strike me: a year on New Caprica and everyone was still living in a tent city. Not a single permanent structure had been built? You'd think with 39,000 motivated people, they'd get some construction projects off the ground by now. It looks like Baltar squandered an entire year squabbling with the union instead of getting some work done. Or is the planet that poor in resources that it's taken them this long to even get started.

Please dont ruin this show for me with political parrallels. I watch tv shows to escape it AND the writer/producer insists he is not intentionally putting his political beliefs in the show, I'd like to keep pretending this is true thank you very much. :-)

Zeek...I agree that shows like BSG can help us forget our troubles for a while...but far too many people try to bury themselves in escapist activities rather than face the issues at hand...BSG is great...but its just a show on your TV...look out the window...thats the real world out there and it needs some of our attention as well...

Thanks.

Bush has already said several times that God has spoken to him.

Baltar's head Gina is always trying to show him the Cylon god's plan.

Pretty easy correlation there.

Oh I'm not living in the real world because I like Sci Fi and don't want to hear about politics for just one FREAKIN second?

::sigh::

Yeah ok then.

Try to find some joy in life guys. It'll make you much more pleasant people to be around.

I'm done here.

"I apologize. It was a poor choice of word, and it wasn't my intention to insult or offend you."

Yeah, well...I could've been more tactful in my reaction. So...bygones.

"Please dont ruin this show for me with political parrallels. I watch tv shows to escape it AND the writer/producer insists he is not intentionally putting his political beliefs in the show, I'd like to keep pretending this is true thank you very much."

I fully believe that the producer isn't putting his beliefs in per se, but the real world parallels are unmistakeable. I mean, Roslin's life was saved basically because of stem cell research. The assassination of Boomer, the would-be killer of Adama, was almost a shot-for-shot recreation of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK's assassin, by Jack Ruby. So if people are drawing parallels to Baltar and Bush, that's not entirely out of line.

It's not like this is anything new. Babylon 5 riffed Chamberlain's notorious declaration that meetings with Hitler had resulted in "peace in our time." "ST:TOS" had episodes commenting on Vietnam and Nazism. One of the strengths of SF is its ability to take real world situations or issues and comment on them in SF terms. So I don't reall see how you can be upset that people here on commenting on such perceived parallels in BSG when it's such a traditional part of SF, both written and televised.

PAD

I wasn't upset .. at first.

I see the hints at parallels too and realize it is a big part of sci fi.

I also realize that political beliefs are important and a big part of what this site is about, simply because it's a part of you.

I just get frustrated always having to wade through political opinions to simply talk about the things I enjoy. Not all people are sci fi buffs and I have a difficult time finding people to talk with who watch BSG or read Star Trek New Frontier. I enjoyed having a place where people talk about like pleasures. Just got weary of people trying to draw conclusions for me.

So I apologize for yelling earlier. I'll just take my marbles and go home to cool off for awhile.

"So I apologize for yelling earlier. I'll just take my marbles and go home to cool off for awhile."

Well, you do what you want, of course, but I think if you go back and give this thread a fair reading, you'll see that reference to specific politics has been pretty minimal. In fact, there's as many posts comparing Baltar to Doctor Bashir as Bush.

PAD

If the Cylons were close enough to detect the nuke, perhaps this isn’t the last we’ve seen of the “Gina” 8 model?

Also, it was Baltar’s 8 and the original Boomer that found New Caprica.

Given that they were leaders of a movement, a schism in the monolithic Cylon society, it may be that Galactica’s survivors have been found by a splinter group of Cylons who have broken off from main Cylon society.

Consequently this splinter group may have a very different outlook on their interaction with human society. They may in fact be on the run from the main Cylon host themselves. This would explain their paternal attitude towards the newfound survivors even though Stockwell’s character gave every indication the Cylon’s had decided to totally remove themselves from the affairs and business of humanity.

"If the Cylons were close enough to detect the nuke, perhaps this isn’t the last we’ve seen of the “Gina” 8 model?"

I'm thinking it is. Remember, the humans blew up the resurrection ship. If the Cylons were so far away that she had to detonate a nuclear bomb to get their attention--and even then it took them a year to notice it--I think it's pretty safe to think that Gina knew she was ending herself permanently. Which adds a certain poignancy to it, when you think about it.

PAD

For her sake, I hope the basestars were too far away to resurrect GinaSix. Death was, after all, her most fervent wish.

Poor broken cyborg...

I think a light year is too far for her mind to "beam" itself into a new body.

Even so, I didn't see a new resurrection ship among the basestars, maybe the new Sharon/Caprica Six alliance has embraced their mortality when they rejected the cylon god.

"Also, it was Baltar’s 8 and the original Boomer that found New Caprica."

Gina is a Six. Sharon/Boomer is the Eight.

Personally, they both strike me as tens!

Keep hearing about this show, should watch. Does the S.1 DVD set also include that mini-series? I've been hesitant to jump on because the pre-release and mini-series jibba jabba was very, very bad. (However, I still vote that the best drama on TV is 24.)

Yes, the miniseries is included. Frankly, when I first saw it, I was lukewarm on the miniseries. So if you watch it and are underwhelmed, trust me, the series does quickly improve.

PAD

Yes, the Season One DVD set includes the miniseries.

Yeah, don't stop with the miniseries. I watched the miniseries and thought it was generally good, though a tad long and boring in places. It felt like it could have lost an hour of material and overall not suffered.

But the series finds its voice and groove immediately with the series premiere "33" and continues to kick ass to this day. (That's not to say there aren't weaker episodes scattered throughout...they can't all be home runs.)

It's a fantastic purchase, and I'd highly recommend it. Just make sure you don't get the "Best Buy exclusive" version of Season 1, which does NOT include the miniseries. I almost purchased it by mistake.

Yeah, check which DVD set you're getting. The "Best Buy Exclusive" was a US release of the UK editions of S1, available just before the main US release of S1. The main differences are that the Best Buy / UK version didn't include the miniseries too, and it used the UK version of the opening theme - which is what we now see in the US too, as of season 2.

"Also, it was Baltar’s 8 and the original Boomer that found New Caprica"

Aside from the previous correction that 8 should be 6 - note that this is one of the few model's they've gone to the trouble of giving a specific designation to: Caprica Six. Saying Baltar's Six makes me think of the Six in Baltar's head, who may or may not exist in the real world, but either way, the real Caprica Six is a separate entity.

Also we don't know which Cylons found New Caprica. What we saw was an invasion force, which presumably took a bit of time to assemble. And I'm not sure we know for sure which exact Cylons were the ones Baltar surrendered to. It certainly looks like the Six was Caprica Six. The Eight - well she was quite possibly the original Sharon Valerii, I admit. But she didn't really do anything distinctive to indicate this one way or another.

"I think a light year is too far for her mind to "beam" itself into a new body."

Also, if Gina had been in range of a Resurrection Ship when she died, she would have gone there immediately, and the Cylons would've known about New Caprica right away rather than a year later. Unless they were actually lying about that, but I think the simplest explanation is to assume that what we were previously told is still correct - after the destruction of the resurrection ship, any Cylons who die in the vicinity of Galactica are permanently dead.

Of course, after OYL I think the Cylons have had ample time to build another resurrection ship and get it out in the vicinity of New Caprica.

"Even so, I didn't see a new resurrection ship among the basestars,"

Why on earth would the Cylons want to jump that thing into the middle of a potential combat zone? Admittedly not much of a zone, it turns out, but still. We know that in the past, the resurrection ship worked over a distance, and didn't have to be part of an attacking fleet to be effective. It also can't be too far away, sure. But at this point I would expect that the cylons probably have a new resurrection ship nearby, kept out of sight most of the time.

"maybe the new Sharon/Caprica Six alliance has embraced their mortality when they rejected the cylon god."

Maybe. I'm not convinced anyone really rejected the Cylon god though. I think it's quite possible that was just part of the lie, to get the humans to believe the Cylons wouldn't be coming back. Note that in the final voice-over at the end of the episode, one of the Sixes (presumably Caprica) says: "...and like God, our infinite mercy will be matched only by our power... and complete control." Doesn't sound like she's given up on monotheism to me...

BSG is ok, Babylon 5 is still better in my book. That said, taking the series at as whole moving from Season 1 to Season 2 I have to say the the high level of season 1 has fallen off a little bit. But for all its short comings, its still the best drama on TV.

Who's to say that the Cylons didn't detect the nuke when it went off and have been waiting to see what would happen?
The Cylons (and Adama for that matter) have noted in the past that perhaps humanity didn't deserve to exist. Societies themselves have a massive amount of inertia in terms of morals, laws, traditions, etc. What if the Cylons'overall plan was to decimate humanity to see how their society would reform with a clean slate? What if New Caprica is, for all intents and purposes, an ant farm? And now, a year later, maybe the Cylons have seen enough...

Who's to say that the Cylons didn't detect the nuke when it went off and have been waiting to see what would happen?

Because, unless the cylons were pretty much in the same system when the nuke when off, they couldn't possibly have known about it. The radiation signature only moves as fast as the speed of light you know.

In an earlier thread I expressed the opinion that BSG was a very good show that nevertheless had its flaws. I lamented its unrelenting dark tone (and yeah, I agree, this SHOULD be a dark show, I just thought an occasional small change of rhythm whouldn't hurt), accused its directors of "directorial excess," and complained about Baltar's character failing to develop.

Well. What a difference a few episodes makes.

I've changed my opinion of the show from "very good" to "outstanding." And now that I understand what they were leading up to, I have a new-found respect for the earlier episodes.

The show is about 12 planets' worth of humans being reduced to a population of 50,000 people (actually, fewer than that now) by a devastating attack by an unrelenting enemy. So, yeah, an unrelenting dark tone is appropriate.

And Baltar's character progression kinda snuck up on me. I realize now that the seeds of who he's become were planted beginning with his first appearance in the miniseries. And the revelation that Caprica Six was "haunted" by Baltar the way Baltar's been haunted by Six just adds to the fascination.

I still find some of the directing to be scenery-chewing stuff that sacrifices style for story, I've come to the opinion that for the most part the directing is highly innovative. It reminds me that television can be an art when it's created by the right people.

And that one year jump: ballsy! The season premiere jumping five years ahead: even ballsier! Stories that take risks are often the best stories.

That said, my DVR cut off the last minute or so of the show! I got to the point where Baltar stood before the Cylons in his office, saw Number Six coyly raise an eyebrow in Baltar's direction, and then -- blooey! The recording was cut off.

I understand from these posts that Baltar surrendered to the Cylons. Not surprising. I just hope I didn't miss a line of dialogue that hints at what's to come. If anyone wants to fill me in, I'd be grateful.

I should know better than to enter the "opinions -- objective or not so much" firestorm. PAD, I agree that some opinions are wrong -- if they're based on flawed premises. The Flat Earth Society's opinions about the shape of the earth are a great example; they can be refuted with scientific evidence. Another example would be if I complained about your portrayal of Spider-Man as a child molester in "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man;" it would be an invalid opinion because you NEVER depicted Spider-Man in such a way, and documentary evidence proves it.

But there is no way to scientifically measure the greatness of a piece of art. And two people can watch the same show, understand it equally well, and come to diametrically opposed opinions about its quality. At that point, how do you decide who's right and who's wrong?

You don't.

Opinions about art, no matter how "refined," no matter how "educated," come down to, "I didn't like this and I did like that." I mean, what proof can you cite to refute the opinion that the "Mona Lisa" is crap? That other more intelligent and more educated people say otherwise? That's just backing up an opinion with another opinion. But how do you "prove" the "experts" opinions?

Especially in light of the fact that at one time, there were experts who believed that every story had to have unity of time, place and theme. Were that the case, BSG would've trod over all three. The show has taken the characters to many locales, skipped ahead in time and explored many, many, many themes.

Opinions based on premises that are assertions of fact can be evaluated based on the quality of the premises, and the quality of the logic used to draw a conclusion from those premises. Opinions about art are purely subjective, having no facts upon which to base them (other than the content of the art itself, as I've mentioned above).

PAD wrote: "There has to be such a thing as objective greatness; otherwise anything can be dismissed out of hand by anyone, and greatness doesn't mean anything."

That's an example of the logical fallacy of "begging the question." You're starting with the conclusion that greatness must mean something, and since it must be objective to mean something, greatness must therefore be objective. But that begs the question: must greatness mean something? If so, what?

My subjective answer is that greatness in art means what you believe it means. If you believe something is great, it is great: to you. And yeah, your belief can be "dismissed out of hand by anyone," and you can't prove the person doing the dismissing is wrong. Why does that make you so vertiginous? Just because someone can validly disagree doesn't make your opinion any less valid.

I doubt you and I will see eye-to-eye on this, which is fine. Just thought I'd express my view, for whatever it's worth.

There's taste and then there's quality. Obviously some people can sing better than others. William Hung is a bad singer. Celine Deon is a good singer. Obviously, some people would prefer to listen to Hung over Deon. But everyone can agree who's more talented...

Celine Deon sucks.

Indeed. One need not like the show to acknowledge that it is well done.

I have to go rewatch the closing, Mr. Myers, but a Six had a voiceover speech whose exact content I don't recall, but the gist of which was that they were going to "do right" by humanity by loving the humans - "...and like God, our infinite love and mercy will be matched only by our control."

Sounds like things won't go well for anyone who values freedom on New Caprica...

I think the Lee/Karen break has been a long time coming. If her drunkenly talking smack about him and his girlfriend wasn't the last straw, I imagine that her, of all people, buying into the Cylons' story and giving up on her duty to shack up with her boytoy would very likely be the final breaking point.

-Rex Hondo-

"Sounds like things won't go well for anyone who values freedom on New Caprica..."

It suddenly occurs to me that many of the people on New Caprica might not care about freedom at first.

It really depends on how they wright the next season. If they write it so that the Cylons start making penicillin and building more weather-proof structures to live in, they could justify people not wanting to rebel. When you've been cold a long time and someone puts a roof over your head, intangibles like freedom can seem less attractive. Long term, people would regret that decision, but at first it might be hard to gather support for a rebellion.

And might we actually see some people actually convert to the Cylons' religion?

-Rex Hondo-

First, Jonathan (the other one), thanks for filling me in.

The ending you've described has me wondering now if Caprica Six and the troubled Number Eight she befriended are the driving force behind the Cylons' decision to abandon their pursuit of humanity's annihiliation in favor of a "benevolent tyranny?" Or will the two of them aid the humans in mounting a resistance? I'm guessing it's the former, but that's what I love about BSG: you just never know.

Rex, I'm not sure what you mean by Kara's "buying into the Cylon's story." Are you inferring that she bought their story solely by virtue of her settling on New Caprica, or did I miss something she said or did in the season finale?

Jason M. Bryant, given the conditions in which the colonists were living on New Caprica, I could see them lacking the will to resist. On the other hand, the Cylons nuked the 12 colonies and destroyed the vast majority of humanity, and that's hard to forget. But it may be a moot point, as the colonists on New Caprica seem to lack the means to mount any viable resistance.

Man, I love the new BSG! October is way too long to wait for a new episode.

Sorry for the confusion, Bill. That was pure speculation on my part as to what could have happened (From Lee's perspective at least) in the intervening year to cause such a rift between Karen and Lee.

-Rex Hondo-

"... you'll see that reference to specific politics has been pretty minimal."

Which was why I commented. I liked that. But your right I overreacted.

"In fact, there's as many posts comparing Baltar to Doctor Bashir as Bush."

Personally I didn't care about the comparisons to Bush (which was a bit of a stretch for me.) I just cared about having the thread high-jacked. Which was really none of my business, so again, apologies.

Moving on. Back to your regularly scheduled program ...

It's Kara, not Karen Rex.

How long was the episode?

We usually set the VCR to start 2 minutes eraly and then run about 5-10 late, but the tape cut off after 6 did Pres. Baltar and then was sitting on the floor with the bomb...

It was billed as a 90-minute episode, but actually ended up running something like 93, I believe. My TiVo cut out right at the verge of the surrender. Luckily, I watched it on Monday night (was out of town for the weekend) in time to record the Monday reshow. :)

It. Was. Incredible. is pretty much my in-depth review of the ep....

I've been trying to watch this series for a while now. I can only watch about five minutes before turning it off. I suspect this is because:
a) I didn't like the "original" all that much
b) I tend to avoid "no hope - end of the human race" type shows/movies.

Couldn't get into Kirby's Kamandi books or those Planet of the Apes movies for the same reason. I suspect I'm a cynic that thinks such things self-fulling prophecies. Or maybe I'm just another victim of Gene Roddenberry's programming...

PS - apologies for the typos/grammatical errors in previous post. That should have been "self-fulfilling". I've got to learn to preview THEN post...

There is a scene in Dead Poets Society in which they read from a textbook how the beauty of a poem can be graphed on the vertical axis and relevance on the horizontal. The intrinsic worth of poems can then be plotted and quantitatively compared.

And I would tend to believe Mr David would agree with the instructor that the entire passage should be ripped from the text book and thrown away.

Objective standards of greatness?

"Objective standards of greatness?"

Objective, not mathematical.

Look, it's real simple: I heard a couple of teens talking once at a video store, and they were dicussing how stupid their parents were saying that "Casablanca" and "Citizen Kane" were great films. Their reason? Both films were in black and white. As far as they were concerned, no film could be great if it wasn't in color.

Some would have me shrug that off and say, "Oh well, everyone's entitled to an opinion." But that implies that all opinions are equal. I'm sorry, no: Their opinion was a stupid one. They don't need people reinforcing it by giving it even the slightest semblance of credence. They need someone to tell them, "You're idiots. You need to go to film classes. You need to read books about these movies. You need to sit down and watch these films over and over and over again until you freaking GET IT, because dismissing such films and many others as automatically second-rate because they're black and white is STUPID. It's a stupid opinion. It's dumb. It's wrong. It is wrong on every level, including objectively.

PAD

Peter,

I understand what you're trying to say, and agree with it, to a point, but "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Just because you think something is great, doesn't mean everyone does. And trying to force that, well, there's a name for trying to force everyone to think alike and like the same things.

This is an argument you cannot win. In any creative endeavor, there's will be those who think it is genius, and those who think it's just a cross in a jar of urine. And until some god proves his existance and says one way or the other, both sides are right.

I'm on the side of recognizing that something might be good, or well done, even if I don't "get" why. I like some art. I know a little art history. Mona Lisa is just a painting of a not too attractive woman to me. I could take it or leave it.

But I understand that it is one of the great Works of Art. I couldn't tell you why, but I know good when I see it.

PAD brings up Casablana, and younger generations failing to recognize it's worth. On it's own, it's a great movie. You don't have to like it to understand that. I see how someone raised on movies like Star Wars would fail to like a B&W classic. But saying it's bad, or worse, it sucks, simply because it's B&W doesn't really express an opinion. It expresses ignorance.

Wy wife likes a lot of hip hop, and some rap. I don't really care for much of it. But I know enough about music to know when something is good, or bad. There's a difference between value, and appeal. Anyone's personal opinion as to appeal is valid. But when it comes to value, an uninformed opinion is just wrong. You can have it, you can express it, and you can cling to it, if you want, but all you'll be doing is expressing your ignorance.

You need to sit down and watch these films over and over and over again until you freaking GET IT

OK, getting a LIT-tle scary now... ;)

You example of the ignorant kids in the video store is well take. But they are being ignorant. I believe I largely agree with the view that there are some things widely recognized to be "great", and that one could even (if you wanted to) come up with a list of what specifically made it "great". (The acting is top notch, the themes are universal, the character development is intriguing, the dialog is realistic, the effects serve the story, etc...)

But I balk at the idea that there are indisputable objective standards. A knowledgeable, open-minded person could look at BSG or the Mona Lisa or Hamlet and honestly say "Eh, it doesn't do that much for me. Frankly, I found that Cheers/the grafitti over there/the latest John Grisham thriller to be more moving to me." They could probably even provide a list as to why.

And having a knowledgeable, thought out personal opinion that differs, even from a majority, on a creative work is valid. To say that "Well, you're just wrong."... I don't see how you can really do that.

I mean, you could. But then you'd just be wrong. ;)

"Just because you think something is great, doesn't mean everyone does. And trying to force that, well, there's a name for trying to force everyone to think alike and like the same things."

Conservatives?

"This is an argument you cannot win."

I don't believe in the no-win scenario.

"But I balk at the idea that there are indisputable objective standards. A knowledgeable, open-minded person could look at BSG or the Mona Lisa or Hamlet and honestly say "Eh, it doesn't do that much for me. Frankly, I found that Cheers/the grafitti over there/the latest John Grisham thriller to be more moving to me." They could probably even provide a list as to why."

And I have no problem with that, as I said earlier. For instance: People highly laud "The Sopranos." I am fully ready to concede that it is a great series based on its acting, its complexity, its characterization and its writing virtuosity. But I personally don't watch it because I find the characters repugnant and I've no one to root for. I don't dispute matters of personal preference.

I wouldn't bother to get my father to try and watch BSG. Why? He doesn't like science fiction. Can't relate to it. He only likes series grounded in real life.

There's nothing wrong with having personal preferences. What pisses me off is when people make sweeping comments about the quality of a series (or movie or book) based upon ignorance, just as you noted yourself.

PAD

"Just because you think something is great, doesn't mean everyone does. And trying to force that, well, there's a name for trying to force everyone to think alike and like the same things."

Conservatives?

Nah. Compare the National Review's blog (The Corner) with Dailykos. Draw conclusions. They'll be very broad generalizations but that's clearly no problem.

I wouldn't beat my head for too long trying to convince someone that they are missing out on greatness. If they are too thick or stubborn to see that Citizen Kane is great, well, they probably don't deserve the pleasure of watching it. Pearls before swine.

What pisses me off is when people make sweeping comments about the quality of a series (or movie or book) based upon ignorance, just as you noted yourself.

So no disagreement there. Cool.

But I still don't agree that, of course, there is such a thing as an objectively great TV show and that there has to be such a thing as objective greatness. There may be a popular consensus, even a wildy popular opinion that something is great. But it does remain an opinion and a thoughtful opposite opinion has as much validity.

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at March 17, 2006 10:12 PM

If they are too thick or stubborn to see that Citizen Kane is great, well, they probably don't deserve the pleasure of watching it.

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How's this for sticking my head in the lion's mouth: I've never seen Citizen Kane.

I'm not much of a film buff. I far prefer comic-books to any other storytelling medium. I believe sequential art is one of the most powerful forms of expression out there, and you can tackle any genre or subject matter in comics. Watchmen, Maus, From Hell, Cerebus, Strangers in Paradise... the only limits are your imagination.

That said, I find myself gravitating more and more towards older movies. Maybe I'm becoming a fuddy-duddy. But I saw the re-make of Cape Fear when it came out in theaters. Years later I saw the original Cape Fear on cable and liked it much better. It left things to the imagination, heaven forbid.

So maybe I should make it a point to get a copy of Citizen Kane on DVD. I realize Citizen Kane is far more than just an "older movie." I'm just saying, given my recent fondness for older movies, I might like it... and perhaps understand why so many hail it as one of the greatest movies ever made.

Actually, I envy you. One of the disadvantges of having been so into movies at so early an age is that it kind of spoils you. It's become pretty difficult to find a classic that I haven't seen or read so much about that it's almost as though I have seen it.

Of course, none of us watching Kane now can get the full effect of what viewers at the time felt. What was innovative then has becoem the common laguage of film now (that said, Kane still amazes. Unbelievable cinematography.).

I've told my wife that if I ever suffer some debilitating head inury where I wake up every morning unable to remember anything (The 50 First Dates scenario) I just want her to pop in the same movie every day and let me enjoy it. It's be fun to see Godzilla for the first time again.

SPIDER MAN IS A CHILD MOLESTER!?!?! PAD WROTE THIS?!?!?

Just kidding but, you know how these internet rumors take on a life of their own. Congrats on FA by the by.

Reading through the thread and absorbing what has been written, a few things struck me.

While people are writing parallels between BSG and the current admin. I have to wonder if the show's creators aren't finding themselves pointed into a direction more akin to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict in that you have two very distinct societies trying to co-exist, unable to forget the past and also having many different elements of both societies pull in conflicting directions with some wanting to find a way to mutually co-exist and others just wanting to continue to fight.

I am fairly certain we saw Baltar's Six at the end of the season finale, if only in the way the two interacted with each other. Again, I can't help but wonder if we aren't seeing a splinter group of Cylons who were unwilling to give up on their monotheistic beliefs and branch off from the main Cyclon host when it was decided Cylon society was trying too hard to emulate human society.

I happen to like the point made about the Cylons potentially "watching" what humanity would create from its ashes and then deciding to take a more active role based upon the result depending upon the result. The series pulled no punches as it was fairly clear that once the refugees had settled somewhere old vices and hostilities reared their ugly heads again.

Baltar has become a much more rounded character in the new series. At times you think there is something redeeming about the character only to find his true nature reasserting itself. Each time Baltar does something good he seems to make up for it by committing an even more grievous transgression - saving Roslyn, giving up the nuke - conceding the election, only to totally revert to form once office was given to him.

Sometimes I wonder if the series with all its religious overtones isn't pointedly based around Baltar's own redemption.

What I want to find out about is what's in store for Starbuck with the Leo Baun model. That episode with Starbuck interrogating him was one of the more powerful episodes and it was apparent he "got to her." Looks like he wasn't finished with her either.

As far as the resurrection ship being too far out for the Gina Six, I think it's more a matter of wait and see. The resurrection episode conveyed a certain amount of disorientation and unease stemming from the whole experience and given the characters’ already damaged psyche it is unwise to assume she would immediately surrender the location of the refugees.

If no one minds a very late addition to the "objective greatness" debate...

I think people might be confusing "greatness" with "something I like." I accept, for example, that there is such a thing as cheap-ass tequila and there is such a thing as objectively great, high-quality, hand-crafted tequila. Either way, I don't want to drink no tequila. (One bad night in college ruins you on that stuff.)

To continue the liquor analogy: Maybe some people prefer the cheap-ass tequila to the good stuff. But liking it better doesn't mean it's better -- it means it's more to your tastes, yes, but it doesn't mean it's better.

If we say there's no such thing as objective greatness, we have to go all the way. We have to say that BSG is in no way objectively better than "Battlefield: Earth." And that ain't a world I want to live in.

Posted by mister_pj at March 18, 2006 04:51 PM

SPIDER MAN IS A CHILD MOLESTER!?!?! PAD WROTE THIS?!?!?

Just kidding but, you know how these internet rumors take on a life of their own.

*********************************

Good night. If that turns into an Internet rumor I'm gonna slit my wrists.

Posted by: Matt Sullivan at March 18, 2006 09:54 PM

If no one minds a very late addition to the "objective greatness" debate...

I think people might be confusing "greatness" with "something I like."

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not conflating the two. I understand the difference. I think the difficulty you're having is accepting that I *understand* your position and I nevertheless disagree with you.

And, you know, we can agree to disagree. I personally don't see arguments as a win-lose proposition. Intelligent, civil arguments force me to hone my thinking and expose me to other points of view. Even if both of us come away without having persuaded the other, I still think the exercise is valuable.

Posted by: Matt Sullivan at March 18, 2006 09:54 PM

If we say there's no such thing as objective greatness, we have to go all the way. We have to say that BSG is in no way objectively better than "Battlefield: Earth." And that ain't a world I want to live in.

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Well, yes and no. While opinions about the "greatness" of art are in my opinion subjective, I don't think all opinions are of equal value. The opinion of someone who cares enough to watch/read/listen to a work of art before expressing an opinion on it is of far greater value than someone who says, "I haven't seen this but I know it must suck because all stuff like that sucks." Moreover, I think the opinion of someone who's bothered to learn about the art form in question holds greater value than the opinion of someone who hasn't.

Objectivity requires the application of standards. But critical standards change over time. Hence my example of the "three unities" that were considered by many ancient Greeks to be the fundamentals of all good storytelling. We now believe you can tell a good story without the "three unities."

I certainly don't think all opinions are created equal. I believe someone who is applying critical standards that are based on a knowledge of an art form will have better opinions than someone who looks at something and says, "Eh, didn't like it."

But ultimately, there's no way to "prove" which standards are correct. Therefore, it's impossible to declare them "objective."

So no, I don't believe in objective standards of greatness. But that doesn't mean I have to admit Battlefield: Earth is on a par with Battlestar Galactica.

Just watched the BSG finale last night, and I'm really confused on one part of season 2. Maybe you guys could help me out, cause I think I must have missed something.

How did Adama and the others NOT know about Gina? Admiral Cain, her XO, and what seemed like the entire crew of Pegasus knew about her. I assume the entire crew did cause Cain mentioned that Gina used to eat and joke around with them as a member of her crew (kinda like how everyone on Galatica knew about Sharon).

Not to mention, the crew knew enough to assume that Sharon would now be getting the same treatment that Gina did under Cain, which they mentioned to some of Galactica's crew. That's how Tyrol and Helo knew enough to stop the attempted rape of Sharon.

Then Gina kills Cain and escapes. The XO knew that Gina was now gone, and I'm assuming Pegasus had to have investigated Cain's death. They probably put two and two together and figured that Gina did it. Gina is now missing, and yet there's no mention what so ever of looking for her or any mention of finding Cain's killer.

How can Adama and Galactica's crew not know about Gina? Not to mention, Gina was probably in Cain's logs, which Adama now has access to since Cain and her XO are dead.

Was this explained at some point and I just missed it, or is this a big gaping hole? It's been bothering me ever since Cain was killed and I kept waiting for them to explain it. Now that Gina's dead, I don't see that happening.

Also, someone posted above that they're going to jump 5 years ahead in the season premiere. Is that true?

Posted by: Michelle at March 20, 2006 03:50 PM

Also, someone posted above that they're going to jump 5 years ahead in the season premiere. Is that true?

***************************************

I'm the one who posted that nugget. It comes from an official BSG podcast that includes commentary from Executive Producer Ronald Moore among others. If you want to hear it for yourself, you can download it for free via iTunes.

Oh, and you can listen to it even if you don't have an iPod. If you have a computer with Internet access, you can download the iTunes software for free, then navigate to podcasts and search for Battlestar Galactica. You can also find the podcasts via SciFi's Web site.

I may have gotten the number of years wrong -- for some reason now I'm thinking they may have said three years. But it was definitely a multi-year jump.

Quoting Bill:

"So no, I don't believe in objective standards of greatness. But that doesn't mean I have to admit Battlefield: Earth is on a par with Battlestar Galactica."

Now realizing that we're basically continuing an argument that started with Plato, I'll agree that we'll likely have to agree to disagree.

I doubt you and I really disagree that much, actually. And at least we can all agree on Battlefield: Earth.

And one more thing: I also heard that five-year jump comment on the podcast. I'm fairly certain they were kidding around.

Now, while I would agree that there is not an objective way to measure artistic merit, there ARE measurable standards by which to judge the quality of craftsmanship invested in a work of art. For example, Bram Stoker's Dracula is considered a literary classic. It could be considered "great," based on the indisputable and pervasive influence it has had on our culture even until this day. It is, however, a tremendously poorly written book.

-Rex Hondo-

Posted by Matt Sullivan at March 21, 2006 01:49 AM

And one more thing: I also heard that five-year jump comment on the podcast. I'm fairly certain they were kidding around.

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I went back and listened to the podcast, and yeah, they did chuckle when they said it. Perhaps it's wishful thinking on my part to believe they were serious. I love stories that shake up the status quo and take risks, and jumping ahead five years in time really would be a delightfully risky move.