December 05, 2005

Thank you, Toby

Last night on "West Wing," Toby Ziegler, in a spirited confrontation with Josh, explained precisely why he wasn't wild about Santos and didn't see him as presidential material. He said that what makes someone presidential material is that--rather than being dragged into the fray, as Josh did with Santos--a true president believes that destiny and the gods have brought him to this time and this place so that he can grab the presidency with both hands, and so that he can come up with the tough answers that stump everyone else in the country.

Not only did he neatly summarize everything I find lacking in Santos, he also described what I find so annoying about Bush. Because I have the sense that Bush was steered into the presidency in the same way that Santos was. He didn't grab the presidency with both hands; it was handed to him on a platter. That's what I think he was doing back on 9/11 when he was informed that the towers had collapsed and he sat there immobile for six minutes: Staring at his hands and thinking, "Who handed me THIS?"

PAD

Posted by Peter David at December 5, 2005 07:49 AM | TrackBack | Other blogs commenting
Comments
Posted by: Andrew/Andy/Drew at December 5, 2005 08:03 AM

Wasn't Bartlett drawn into the presidency? Rather than wresting it with both hands?

I'm pretty sure Leo had to convince him to do it, and then later when things weren't going quite the way he wanted he started to give up. Wasn't that where the "less of who cares" speech of Leo's came in?

I could be wrong. Not that I disagree with anything, just questioning if Toby thought that about Bartlett too, or if he was just being cranky with Josh.

Posted by: shadowquest at December 5, 2005 08:06 AM

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Posted by: Craig Welsh at December 5, 2005 08:09 AM

I was thinking much the same thing...like "Toby, weren't you there in the early days, when Bartlett looked pissed off that Leo had dragged him into this mess." I'm actually rewatching WW on DVD right now and I'm about half way through the second season, so I stand to be corrected. But I always thought that Bartlett took a lot of prodding to run, and took longer than that before he was "ready."

One other thing...I thought this season was pretty good. Until I spent the month hiatus watching old episodes. Watching last night left a slight bitter taste in my mouth. Yes, it was good and all, but my God, look at how far down it has come from its glory years.

Posted by: Derek at December 5, 2005 08:26 AM

Meanwhile, I'm not entirely sure I embrace the concept in general. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy points out that those who most want a position of power, such as the Presidency, are usually the least qualified to actually take on the job. I'd rather have a "man of conscience, dragged to power kicking and screaming" than "a power-hungry man who schemes in the dark at night about what he'll do with that much power".

Mind you, I agree with Peter about Bush, he's clearly neither of these two, but a third, "I'll be dragged into the spotlight and left to my own devices with nary a clue on what to do," but in general, I think I'd rather have the guy who doesn't want the job.

Remember that the *intent*, years ago, was for politicians to be ordinary citizens who "did their time" for a couple years in the service of their country, not for there to be whole dynasties of power-brokers running the show, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

Posted by: Fred Chamberlain at December 5, 2005 08:56 AM

Having picked up the first two seasons of West Wind on DVD because of the voices of support for the show at this site, I just watched the first 2 discs over the weekend. Bartlett came across as pretty passionate about the position to me. In fact, he showed moments of giddiness at the opportunity for change that he had been given as well as a strong sense of responsibility at the power and influence he has on the world. There was actually a very memorable scene with him sharing a moment of support with a scandel plagued Leo, right before his addiction issues became public. Though, from his eyes, Leo was instrumental in getting him there, there hasn't been a moment in the first half of the first season that I've ever been under the impression that Bartlet didn't take full responsibility for where he has been, what he has done or the charge he has been given.

Fred

Posted by: Guido at December 5, 2005 09:03 AM

"a true president believes that destiny and the gods have brought him to this time and this place so that he can grab the presidency with both hands"

If that's a true president, I'll go for the false one, please. Because:
1: it sounds dangerously close to a description of a man with delusions of grandeur.
2: it sounds dangerously close to a description of a religious fanatic.

I do like the underlying sentiment, that a true president must have confidence. I just prefer it not be confidence that is based on lust for power, divine back-up and the inevitability of destiny.

Posted by: Michael Cravens at December 5, 2005 09:13 AM

I don't think there's an inconsistency with Toby's characterization. Granted, I didn't see the episode, so I'm basing my opinion on how PAD describes the exchange.

SPOILERS AHEAD, SO NEW CONVERTS MAY WANT TO SKIM OVER THE NEXT PARAGRAPH.

It's true...Leo did drag Bartlet into running for President. He came to see Bartlet when he was governor of New Hampshire and in a memorable scene gave Bartlet a napkin with the words "Bartlet for America" scribbled on it. Later, Bartlet returns the napkin to Leo as a Christmas gift (shortly after Leo testifies before the Congressional committee on the MS disclosure) and says, "That was a very nice thing you did," (or words to that effect).

But Bartlet's words of reluctance at being dragged into the presidency stem not from any self-doubt or any disbelief in his destiny or convictions, but from his nagging insecurities about his relationship with his father. Remember "The Two Bartlets" that Toby pointed out in that famous scene during the re-election campaign toward the end of the third season? Toby was the one who confronted Bartlet about his "aw shucks" attitude, and lays the issue squarely: Bartlet is smarter than his father was, and Bartlet's father beat him, made him feel insecure about his intelligence and his destiny, so it caused Bartlet to try to downplay it. The two Bartlets: the nobel laureate economist versus the aw-shucks grandfather figure. Maybe if he can foster the latter and win an election based on it, his father might love him more.

To my knowledge, Santos hasn't displayed such depth, so that might account for the difference between the two men.

So I actually think it's pretty dead-on that Toby give Josh the speech described by PAD.

Hope that made sense. :-)

Posted by: Cheryl Mondat at December 5, 2005 09:27 AM

The notion that someone who has spent their life focussed on climbing to the top of the political heap, with all that entails... The notion that such a person would know better than actual working experts what to do about the economy, the environment, social problems, ethnic problems and all the rest. Well. It's nuts.

To my mind, it's also pretty distasteful to believe that the world should work that way.

On the other hand, this description of Pres. Bush from an article by Seymour Hersh does ring a few bells:

Current and former military and intelligence officials have told me that the President remains convinced that it is his personal mission to bring democracy to Iraq... Bush’s closest advisers have long been aware of the religious nature of his policy commitments. In recent interviews, one former senior official, who served in Bush’s first term, spoke extensively about the connection between the President’s religious faith and his view of the war in Iraq. After the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the former official said, he was told that Bush felt that “God put me here” to deal with the war on terror. The President’s belief was fortified by the Republican sweep in the 2002 congressional elections; Bush saw the victory as a purposeful message from God that “he’s the man,” the former official said. Publicly, Bush depicted his reëlection as a referendum on the war; privately, he spoke of it as another manifestation of divine purpose.

Posted by: Amy Sisson at December 5, 2005 10:11 AM

I like Arthur C. Clarke's method -- lottery, drawn from among all those over a certain age, with a certain minimum level of education. Clarke too says (fictionally) that the best person for the job is one who has to be dragged in kicking and screaming, but who then does the best job possible so they can get out right on time at the end of their sentence, er, term.

Posted by: tomthedog at December 5, 2005 10:25 AM

I'm with Guido. "Destiny" and "the gods"? Even if those weren't the exact words used, I'd rather not have a president who thought along those lines. You've got it backwards: that is EXACTLY what we have now, a president who thinks The Lord Savior Jesus Christ Almighty installed him directly into the Oval Office. (With an assist by the Supreme Court.) Give me a president who DOESN'T suffer under those kinds of delusions.

Posted by: Lee Goodman at December 5, 2005 10:29 AM

I think the problem lies with the actor, Jimmy Smits, as opposed to any specific dialogue. I have always found him bland no matter what writer puts words into his mouth,

Posted by: tom dakers at December 5, 2005 11:33 AM

I thought that the last scene with Santos in the church was supposed to be showing us that he has suddenly become what Toby said he wasn't. I thought the whole show was set up to show us him growing into the part. Toby says he's not the one. Santos whining about how he doesn't know what to do, showing us again exactly what Toby means. His wife showing she really doesn't believe.

Then he gives the speech that is supposed to tell us he is the man. That he is that sort of leader and his wife takes his hand to show that now she believes.

Of course, I didn't buy the speech at all. I figure he gets to the part of the speech where he says he feels for the cop and the people in the church boo him out of the building and a riot follows.

The other bit I didn't get is that they are showing Toby to be the wise one, he sees that Santos isn't the one to lead. But, thru the entire run of the show Leo has been the smartest in the room, except sometimes for Bartlet, and yet with all the time he's been with Santos, he can't see that Santos isn't the one.

Posted by: Sean at December 5, 2005 12:17 PM

When Toby said the person running for president should be the one who sees it as their destiny I cringed. I do not want to be "lead" by someone who believes (again paraphrasing Toby) the gods conspired to make them President.

A strong, core, sense of responsibility and duty. A firm belief that they must strive to become elected because it is required of them to serve.

Not because of a sense of destiny. To my ears, Toby was calling for someone who was looking for personal glory.

Posted by: Jose Garcia at December 5, 2005 01:23 PM

Not a big surprise. Liberals would only feel comfortable with Santos if he were holding a leaf blower. Then they could "help him" see how oppressed he was. Thank God for today's Republican party.

Posted by: Bob Jones at December 5, 2005 01:33 PM

It's TV Show. Sorta like The Girl President Show with Geena Davis.

Posted by: Peter David at December 5, 2005 01:53 PM

"Not a big surprise. Liberals would only feel comfortable with Santos if he were holding a leaf blower. Then they could "help him" see how oppressed he was."

Oh, don't be an ass. I've been heavily critical of a variety of characters and characterizations of "West Wing" in the past several years...but I'm critical of how Santos is handled and suddenly race is a factor? Please.

PAD

Posted by: Emily at December 5, 2005 02:44 PM

"Not a big surprise. Liberals would only feel comfortable with Santos if he were holding a leaf blower. Then they could "help him" see how oppressed he was. Thank God for today's Republican party."

Yes. Of course. That is the problem everyone has with Santos. It couldn't be what they actually said above. They are just lying to cover their racism.


*Eye roll*

Personally, I love Santos. I've got to chime in with those above who aren't comfortable with the whole "this is my destiny" thing And while I don't think that Josh was right about Toby not wanting Josh to succeed at something on his own, I do think that the main reason that Toby is being such an ass has nothing to do with Santos, and everything to do with Josh leaving.

I usually love Toby, but I really wanted to slap him last night. Yeah, Josh was probably lying when he said he'd come by and see Toby again. But if Toby hadn't done his best to piss Josh off, that wouldn't have been the case. Because godforbid Toby actually let someone care about him.

Posted by: SER at December 5, 2005 03:22 PM

Clinton was someone who had his eyes set on the highest office from the beginning. I personally don't see that as a negative.

The problem is when someone wants power for power's sake. If you see the world and know you can make it better and are driven to achieve power in order to do this, then I don't think you're Osama bin Laden. Determination and drive is not what the problem is. It's what your goals are.

(I also think Toby was speaking metaphorically about "gods and destiny," BTW.)

The issue is that *someone* is going to have the zeal that Toby describes. Would you rather it be the guy everyone voted for or the puppet-master behind the scenes (in Bush's case, various corporate masteers)? In Santos's case, Josh is very much that puppet-master. Part of what's interesting to see if Santos breaking away from Josh's control (as evidenced by his having Lou report directly to him). Whether this will be his undoing or his salvation remains to be seen.

Posted by: Jonathan (the other one) at December 5, 2005 03:53 PM

I'm just concerned that Santos might be too distracted to do the job properly - after all, he's got to raise the daughter of the Sith Lord's apprentice, and keep her hidden until her brother goes and outs her like an idiot in Episode Six. Is he really going to have the time to lead the free world, too? :)

Posted by: Elayne Riggs at December 5, 2005 03:59 PM

I think Toby's bit was set up for Santos' speech at the end, so that everyone in the audience can say "yeah, he showed with a speech like that that he wants to grab it."

Posted by: Bobb at December 5, 2005 04:00 PM

"I'm just concerned that Santos might be too distracted to do the job properly - after all, he's got to raise the daughter of the Sith Lord's apprentice, and keep her hidden until her brother goes and outs her like an idiot in Episode Six. Is he really going to have the time to lead the free world, too? :)"

Maybe we don't want a president that's incapable of defending his home planet from an Ultimate Power in the Universe?

Posted by: Jason at December 5, 2005 04:11 PM

Toby last night: I think

(1) Toby, as someone else mentioned, is really pissed at Josh because he feels left out of the loop on the whole Santos thing, but more importantly, he feels Josh betrayed Bartlett and left "the big leagues" (think about his speech to Wil when Wil left for the VP's chief of staff position) in the lurch to follow a fat-chance kind of dream, so:

(2) now that Josh is proving Toby wrong about the Santos dream, Toby's going to try to tear that down because he's both jealous and feels left behind and in his friend's shadow, plus maybe if Josh had brought him in on the ground floor, Toby wouldn't have been in a position to make the leak in the first place.

(3) Toby's done politically now, except maybe as an activist after he serves his time. Bartlett's last year is kinda a lame duck year, and even if it turns out otherwise, it won't be due to anything Toby helped along. Josh gets to go on whether Santos wins or not to bigger and better things. Again, jealous.

(4) There's nothing good that can come from Josh associating with Toby at this point, and in fact it could really threaten the Santos campaign if word gets out. Among all the negatives, maybe Toby just wants to keep Josh the hell away so his friend doesn't get sucked into his own problems.

As for what Toby said about the presidency and the motives of the person who pursues it, the president has to want it, and has to want it bad. You have to want any job to truly do it well, and the challenges of even a peaceful, prosperous presidency requires someone who has the confidence and desire to be able to decide such huge matters of countries and men. Can someone be reluctant at first? Sure, but once you commit to the campaign trail, you have to grab the process by the heart and be willing to crawl through mud to reach that fabled white house.

Posted by: Den at December 5, 2005 04:32 PM

I never could get into the West Wing, but I'll agree with the others who feel that candidates who believe that they are destined for power should raise a red flag.

Really, didn't we fight a war once to declare that the United States wouldn't be ruled by a man who thinks he was appointed by God?

Posted by: Andy Ihnatko at December 5, 2005 05:39 PM

I really think this whole scene was a huge misfire. This is the first time any member of Bartlet's longtime inner circle has had a chance to speak with Toby. How the bloody heck did this turn into a "Doubts start to creep in about Santos" scene? This should have been an enormous emotional payoff. Instead, it left me thinking "Wait...Bartlet doesn't think Santos is The Guy? Didn't he, like, personally and dramatically throw his support to him at the end of the Convention?"

And Josh is really naive enough not to realize that he's being blown off by the White House?

And the President really doesn't want to help make sure that the Democrats hold on to the White House?

And is there a reason why Josh has been downgraded all the way to "his important request is blown off by a White House secretary" status?

And after countless "the staff members work in jeans and sweatshirts" episodes, there's suddenly shock and surprise that people are working on a Saturday?

Another slightly disappointing episode, methinks. I hope this turns out to be one of those deals where there's a Perfectly Reasonable Explanation and I've simply fallen for a bit of misdirection. But every week I just hear more and more sputtering from this show's creative engine...

Posted by: Tom Galloway at December 5, 2005 08:12 PM

I tend not to want someone who thinks in terms of gods and destiny being why they should run.

I do tend to want someone who thinks in terms of "I think I will do a better job as President than the other candidates, and have specific things I want to accomplish in the position" (note that if I disagree with those things, that'll trump my desire for some fire in the belly. I'm sure Pat Robertson qualifies under this, but I'd never want to vote for him).

For example, Bob Dole never really seemed to be able to articulate why *he* should be President when running against Clinton other than a feeling of "Well, I've run for the nomination N times before and its my turn now".

Posted by: Peter David at December 6, 2005 12:06 AM

Well, maybe Toby had a point vis a vis Bartlet as well, when you think about the whole Bob Dole thing. After all, there was one episode of "West Wing" during the run for Bartlet's second term where his staff spends the entire episode trying to come up with an answer as to why Bartlet wants to be president (again.) Finally C.J. goes to Bartlet, and asks him point blank. Bartlet considers it for a time, frowns, then shrugs and says, "I almost had it." Then he goes back to his paperwork, leaving a bewildered C.J. just standing there.

And think about the first season episode in which Bartlet says to Toby, "I know I let you down. I can sense your disappointment." I think it was also Toby who said to Bartlet that he thought Bartlet, when faced with tough situations, "lets the pitch go by." Bartlet mentions this to Leo, and Leo replies, "I don't think you let the pitch go by. I think you foul it off."

Based on Toby's track record, it could pretty easily be argued that his assessment of what makes a truly great president not only excludes Santos, but Bartlet as well.

PAD

Posted by: Luigi Novi at December 6, 2005 06:42 AM

Peter David: He said that what makes someone presidential material is that--rather than being dragged into the fray, as Josh did with Santos--a true president believes that destiny and the gods have brought him to this time and this place so that he can grab the presidency with both hands...
Luigi Novi: I guess that means that Harry Truman wasn't a "real" President in Toby's eyes....

Posted by: Rick Keating at December 6, 2005 10:14 AM

Luigi Novi: "I guess that means that Harry Truman wasn't a "real" President in Toby's eyes...."

If Truman had only served out Roosevelt's term, maybe. But he also ran for election in his own right in 1948- and won. If he didn't have the drive and desire to be president, wouldn't he have stepped down, and returned to private life when he'd finished Roosevelt's term?

Could Toby argue that Gerald Ford wasn't a real president, by this definition? I don't think so. Although he lost re-election, he did run, which suggests he wanted the job. And I think anyone who runs for president- certainly once the race has boiled down to the two main candidates- has to believe they have what it takes to lead the country.

Either that, or be a complete fool, as Milo Bloom once said, before turning to Steve Dallas in his search for the 1984 Meadow Party candidate.

Steve, fool that he was, was still no fool, and shouted, "forget it!"

I think the only president who'd not be a "real" president in Toby's eyes (based on what I've been reading here- I didn't see the episode) would be one who assumed the office upon the death of his predecessor, and didn't run for re-election. Off the top of my head, though, I can't think of anyone who didn’t just serve out a predessor's term without at least wanting to run in his own right. Andrew Johnson didn’t get renominated- no surprise there- but that’s not to say he didn’t want the job.

In fact, the only “president” who (probably) didn’t want to be president was some guy who held the office for one day. I forget who he was, but the incoming president refused to be sworn in on the sabbath, and there either wasn’t a veep, or he felt the same. So this guy, who was either speaker of the house, or the next guy in succession who _had_ been sworn in to his office, technically became the president for this one day.

He pretty much just took it easy that day.


Rick

Posted by: Peter David at December 6, 2005 10:14 AM

Well, Truman didn't initially run for president, so Toby might factor that in. For what it's worth, many of Truman's contemporaries didn't consider him presidential. They referred to him as "that haberdasher."

PAD

Posted by: Den at December 6, 2005 11:58 AM

Also, Truman was all but written off when he did run for re-election 1948, giving rise to the famous "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline. And, even through history has been kinder to him, when he left office, his approval ratings were comparable to what Dubya's are today.

Posted by: RJM at December 6, 2005 12:39 PM

I'd always seen "The West Wing" as a show about, well, the west wing. The goings on of what goes on with the president and his inner circle.

Personally, as a viewer who enjoys well written/acted shows I'd live to see this series go on and on with different presidents and different parties.

Posted by: Kevin T. Brown at December 6, 2005 12:50 PM

Wait...Bartlet doesn't think Santos is The Guy? Didn't he, like, personally and dramatically throw his support to him at the end of the Convention?"

And Josh is really naive enough not to realize that he's being blown off by the White House?

And the President really doesn't want to help make sure that the Democrats hold on to the White House?

And is there a reason why Josh has been downgraded all the way to "his important request is blown off by a White House secretary" status?

************************************************

In answer to your questions in order:

Yes, Bartlet did support him, but only after he won the nomination, more or less, by default.

Josh is not naive, but I think he felt he had true friends in the White House, especially CJ. That all he had to do was ask a favor and she'd at least pose the question to Bartlet. She didn't, so he's understandably shocked.

CJ never asked Bartlet, so it's hard to determine what he would have done.

Josh is no longer a member of the WH staff. And apparently whatever friendships he may have made there in the past are no more. He's basically on his own now.

My comments about Toby's speech, it's borne of frustration and jealousy. He knows Josh made the right decision, win or lose, to get out when he could. Toby was/is too chicken to even attempt to do what Josh did. So what does he do? He leaks the story about the Shuttle to the press in an effort to "prove" to himself that he can take risks, too.

Posted by: Andy Ihnatko at December 6, 2005 08:08 PM

Well, remember that Bartlet stayed out of the nomination process altogether until he saw Santos' big "I don't have the right to drop out and choose the nominee; that choice should be in the hands of you, the delegates" speech on the floor of the convention. Then he personally met with the head of the teachers' union, thus ensuring Santos the nomination.

Of course, the episode doesn't indicate whether Bartlet passed, or if CJ just blew Josh's request off completely. So maybe the whole discussion's moot.

Still, this episode was another big misfire. It just makes no sense that the White House would blow off a request like this. A phone call from CJ explaining that the boss just isn't in any kind of shape for a personal appearance of this scope today...I could believe that. But not this. Unless the Democratic president has no interest in being succeeded by a fellow Democrat, this whole plot thread just isn't credible.

It was also a missed opportunity. How much more powerful would this ep have been, if CJ had phoned Josh personally and told him that the boss was having a Bad MS Day and was in no shape for this sort of a speech? Toby's little speech would have shown Josh's insecurities about Santos and his own relationship with the Administration. And Toby ultimately being proven wrong would have underscored his bitterness, fear and desperation.

Ahh, well...what's the point. This is like asking Muhammad Ali to put the gloves back on and be Cassius Clay again.

Posted by: Robert Rhodes at December 7, 2005 04:36 AM

Yeah. I know. I'm sticking my hand back into the hornet's nest. But I just can't help myself. Sorry, Peter.

PAD: "Who handed me THIS?"

The Clinton administration.

RLR

Posted by: Sasha at December 7, 2005 11:48 AM

Yeah. I know. I'm sticking my hand back into the hornet's nest. But I just can't help myself. Sorry, Peter.

PAD: "Who handed me THIS?"

The Clinton administration.

Um, no. Nice try though.

(And for the record, it was the Supreme Court.) :)

Posted by: Scavenger at December 7, 2005 03:46 PM

Besides the after the convention stuff, there was the whole "Bartlett Family Check" that was given to the Santos campaign in the early days.

Posted by: Robert Rhodes at December 8, 2005 07:20 PM

The Clinton administration.

Um, no. Nice try though.

(And for the record, it was the Supreme Court.) :)

Oh, that's right. My bad. Bush Lied, but long before that, there was the Stolen Vote Scandal, which got him into the White House.

Twice.

RLR

Posted by: Jerome Maida at December 8, 2005 07:33 PM

Re: Truman

Yes. I believe at one point his approval ratings were about 25 percent. Then factor in that he was not expected to beat Dewey and ultimately did not make a full run in 1952 because he concluded he would not be able to win.
Bloody amazing, when you think of how he is perceived today.
Of course, the Korean War and the fact that the presidency had been held by the same party for 20 straight years may have had something to do with that.
But it's definitely evidence that politicians who want to shift with the winds instead of doing what they believe to be right are doing both themselves and their country a disserevice. Since the impact of decisions made may not be fully realized for decades.

Posted by: Liam Spencer at December 17, 2005 07:23 PM

Just as a point of interest/sadness, John Spencer, who plays Leo McGarry on the West Wing, died yesterday of a heart attack. He was to turn 59 on the 20th.

Posted by: David Bjorlin at December 18, 2005 12:50 AM

It's always distressing to be reminded that someone so comparatively young could die so suddenly. I always liked Leo, and by extension the actor who played Leo so well. He'll be missed.

Posted by: Michael Cravens at December 18, 2005 07:56 AM

I was deeply saddened to hear of John Spencer's passing. He was an incredibly talented actor who made Leo one of my absolute favorite characters on the show.

I can't imagine how difficult it will be for the rest of the cast to go back to work and finish the season with this cloud hanging over their heads.

As I rewatch my DVD sets of the first four seasons of the West Wing, I'll fondly remember John Spencer as Leo. He will be missed. :-(