We had wanted to wait on an announcement to have the final contracts signed (they're not) and having sample artwork from the new artist (we don't). But Bob Wayne just announced at the Wizard Philly Con that "Fallen Angel" is going to IDW, so the timing ship has just sailed from the harbor.
So yeah, "Fallen Angel" will be relaunching in December (we hope) from IDW. The first storyline will reveal the Angel's true origin and, thus, will be an ideal jumping on point for anyone who hasn't read it until now.
More details will be available shortly in a detailed interview on Newsarama.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at June 4, 2005 07:48 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingRead about this on Newsarama. I was pretty depressed about the new news coming from WW, so this and the mention of Madrox by Quesada really helped bring my spirits up.
I'm very excited to know that the book will be coming back.
But it's unfortunate that Bob Wayne let the cat out of the bag.
Certainly, Bob Wayne can feel free to comment on the cancellation by DC. But to reveal that the book had a new publisher before the ink was dry? That must be annoying.
I don't think there's anything sinister about it. I think Bob Wayne probably thought the deal was in place and had been announced. I'm pretty sure it was inadvertent.
But I'm sorry the news slipped out before everything was ready to go.
I am, I reiterate, thrilled to hear about it's (hopeful) return! :-)
I look forward to more adventures of Asia Minor Lee this year.
How about asking for Robin Riggs as artist? I hear he's available....
Tremendous!
Thanks for keeping Lee on the back burner and finding her a new home Mr David. The loyal Lee fans will be counting the days till the new issue #1 in December.
Well, so much for her being Linda Danvers, I'm thinking.
On the bright side, if you had taken this to Marvel like Powers and Kabuki, I'm sure you would've been forced to crossover with Wolverine or Spider-Man or something. I betcha Lee could kick Logan's ass.
What does this mean for past issues of the original series? Is it possible to get the rights to reprint those in trades?
Here's my guess on why we are now getting to learn who she really is: All along PAD hoped to have her be Linda Danvers, but DC would never commit. PAD left it vague, leaving hints that it could be her if DC ever changed their minds.
Now since the book is moving to a new publisher, there is absolutely no hope for her to be revealed as she was meant to be. Instead, he gets to use his follow-up plan, and deny that she was ever intended to be the former Supergirl.
Yes, I would be completely surprised if he ever told us the truth on this. He likes to keep secrets about stories. It took well over 10 years to find out who Thanatos was from Spider-man 2099. And had Captain Marvel never been written, we never would have known.
A transcription of my reaction upon reading this post:
"OOOOOOHHHHHH YEAAAAAAHH!!"
Fallen Angel had become one of my vary favorite comics before DC dropped the ax on it. I'm very happy you and Lee were able to find a new home, and I can't wait to read the new stories.
Congratulations!
Does this put the kibosh on any future FA trades from DC?
I second Kathy's recommendation. :) Glad to hear the title will be continuing, Peter. I haven't read anything from IDW but, from all indications, they're a nice stable company with a good future.
PAD continues his one man crusade to get me to break my comic book budget.
Maybe if I don't count those titles written by people whose last name rhymes with Ravid I can still make it.
Cheers for the return of Fallen Angel, but I hope there's an apology from Bob Wayne/DC for letting the cat out of the bag early. It certainly wasn't his story to tell, and I think that revealing that kind of behind the scenes info (particularly before the ink is dry on your new deal) is pretty unprofessional.
I think there'd be more reason to be annoyed at Bob Wayne if Rich Johnston hadn't mentioned this as a (fairly solid) rumor way back in March. Wayne isn't the first to put the information out there, he's just confirming something that was already in the air.
I do the dance of happy comic joy!!!
(I know you can't see it, but trust me, it's there.)
Okay. Just this announcement has made me go from wanting to bludgeon your knee-caps for the "Lockley" gag in the FF novel to getting down on my knees and weeping.
Seriously, damn glad to hear FA's coming back. Tired of seeing all the original, entertaining books getting canned before their time.
Congrats.
Also from WW...apparantaly the Exiles are about to take a tour of Peter David's career at Marvel.
Since someone brought up DC trades, do you have the right to reprint the DC published stories at another publisher?
Excellent! IDW mwans the books will reach Holland when ordered, no problem (there's sometimes a bit of uncertainty when really small publishers are concerned). It's good to know FA will have a good home. Let's just hope it all pans out.
Is this the first time a book originally published by DC has moved to another company? If so, that's pretty nice of them. I'm sure there could have been legal roadblocks.
Good to see Lee will be back.
What does the books new publisher mean content wise? More Adult? Less?
::is dancing the happy Snoopy dance::
Wonderful news! Thank you for confirming it here. I tend not to believe rumors until the author verifies them. :)
It's too bad the TopCow thing didn't seem to work out, but I'm still glad to see the book again. :)
I'm now a happy, happy comic geek.
Praise IDW! Praise IDW!
It's great to read the news of the (hopeful) return of Fallen Angel. I've never read anything from IDW, but I'll give it a try for Lee.
I'll look forward to the December release as a Christmas present from you.
Wow! First the incredible return of John Ostrander's Grimjack, and now Fallen Angel too!
IDW's really turning into the place to be!
I dropped FA after about 10 issues. I thought it was interesting and had potential, but in the end the art always let me down. The storytelling (by the artist, not the writer) was sometimes confusing and scenes that needed to have a big impact were often weak.
If I like the new artist i will probably give it another shot at IDW.
YES!!! And Peter, PLEASE consider some of the suggestions we offered a couple of months ago on possible new artists! In fact, how about getting a superstar artist on the first issue, like Adam Hughes? He draws great women, after all, and handles blacks and shadows very well, which is essential for a setting like Bete Noir at night.
This is good news.
Please tell me this will be priced like their Transformers books ($2.99) and not like their other titles ($3.99).
I had to pass up Grimjack and Jon Sable because of the price. I really don't want to pass on Fallen Angel since it is an enjoyable book. I just can't justify spending 4 bucks a pop for 22 pages of story. Now for a full 30 pages with no ads and 2 editorial pages, sure, but not for 22.
Even if I can't be there I hope you knock this one out of the park and become the highest selling book at IDW.
Great news! Glad to hear it. Wish December wasn't so far away.
Yipee.. now maybe this piece of crap can be cancelled by two publishers. But I'm sure when that happens it won't be your fault, will it, Peter. It'll be because the big nasty publisher didn't support you. Couldn't be because it sucks like a hoover.
Great news. . .as a latecomer to the series, I must ask: is there any chance IDW'll be publishing TPBs of the uncollected, what, 14? issues from DC, since DC obviously has no plans to collect them?
Grimjack is coming out through IDW? I missed that announcement.
IDW puts out some lovely looking stuff, but I'll cop to not having picked anything up by them except the excellent SMOKE by Alex de Campi and Igor Kordey. Looks like there's going to be at least three of their titles on my pull now with FA going over.
I'm afraid I stopped picking up FA around issue 12 because it wasn't hooking me, but I'll be more than happy to give it another chance.
Hmmm. FALLEN ANGEL is now going to be published by the same publisher that is doing GRIMJACK. Does that mean that Fallen Angel's secret origin is that she is really GrimJill?
Excellent! I'd been hoping she'd be back, and all of the city with her.
Excellent! I just read the final (DC) issue (turns out it had been a while since I'd gone to the store; among several things in my pull box), and very much enjoyed it. I'll happily follow along to the new publisher (though it is too bad she definitely won't be Linda now).
I think it would be very cool if you could get John Byrne to do the artwork.
This is excellent news, PAD. I'm so happy you were able to save the book, I think Bete Noir is one of the more interesting things I've seen in comics in awhile. Way to go, IDW.
I think it would be very cool if you could get John Byrne to do the artwork.
How dare you use that kind of language around this blog?
Congartulations, PAD, and good luck. I like Luigi's idea for a superstar artist like Adam Hughes to kick things off, and I still think Tom Derenick would be the perfect choice for regular artist. Anyone wonder why? Just check out his issues of "Birds Of Prey".
That's the best news I've read all day! I can't wait to start reading "Fallen Angel" again.
IDW? I have never heard of this publisher. Hopefully I will be able to get the new Fallen Angel series from my local shop here in Britain.
Nevertheless, great news! :)
What does it say about my life that this is the best news ever?
Great news! FA will now clog a DIFFERENT area of my local shop's rack. I fail to see how a failing book moving to a new publisher makes it or its writing any better.
Buffybia:
>Great news! FA will now clog a DIFFERENT area of my local shop's rack. I fail to see how a failing book moving to a new publisher makes it or its writing any better.
A more important area to consider for your own enlightenment is if it is a form of entertainment that brings some people pleasure and you have no interest in it...... why would you care one way or the other?
That's great news PAD.
Quick Question...are the fans going to see more Sach and Violens in this new run of Fallen Angel?
Can't wait to see how the new series unfolds.
Regards:
Warren S. Jones III
I'm still available to do this book. Ryall's got my samples if you want to see them again.
Boy, isn't this unprofessional of me ;)
-Stephen Molnar
Conrats PAD. I can't wait until December. I also think it's unprofessional of DC to announce this since it's not their book anymore.
Yes, both Sachs & Violens will be recurring characters in "Fallen Angel."
PAD
Great, great news. Hoping it's not $4, but if it is, I'll manage. Also hoping for a good artist, but at the same time, PAD, I know you have good taste.
I'm guessing that IDW could well release the remainder of the series in TPBs because Peter has the rights to the stories, not DC.
Sachs & Violens = cool!
The idea some fans have about Supergirl = Lee, and that concept having to be "abandoned" because of the move to IDW? Bogus. Or, in the words of a certain green goliath penned by PAD, my thoughts: "Still! Not! Caring!" (No offense intended, settle down!)
I'm with "Fallen Angel" until the end. 'Nuff said.
~G.
>Freddie wrote:
A more important area to consider for your own enlightenment is if it is a form of entertainment that brings some people pleasure and you have no interest in it...... why would you care one way or the other?
Aww shucks, you care about my enlightenment. That's just so ... ass-ish of you. Why do I care? I don't know. That's a good question. Why do YOU care? I suppose it's just irritating to see GOOD books die a lonely death while others get a new lease on name recognition alone. Or, maybe I'm just a prick. Who knows. But thanks for caring anyways....
>>Freddie wrote:
A more important area to consider for your own enlightenment is if it is a form of entertainment that brings some people pleasure and you have no interest in it...... why would you care one way or the other?
>Aww shucks, you care about my enlightenment. That's just so ... ass-ish of you. Why do I care? I don't know. That's a good question. Why do YOU care? I suppose it's just irritating to see GOOD books die a lonely death while others get a new lease on name recognition alone. Or, maybe I'm just a prick. Who knows. But thanks for caring anyways....
Oh, don't misread my reply as one of concern. It was initiated more so out of a morbid curiosity at your behavior than of any actual concern for you. I figured that you were simply a troll, but thought I'd inquire about your motivation and offer you an opportinity to reexamine your thinking. A hazard of my profession, I suppose. Though your consideration of the possibility that you are a prick certainly shows potential signs for enlightenment. Thanks for playing.
Say, it just hit me. Peter is writing both Spike and Fallen Angel for IDW. So..... Peter, when can we seen Angel meet Fallen Angel?
I know, I know, never. Still, it could be fun.
GREAT news.
Can't WAIT to order it again ojn a monthly basis!
Marty
Freddie,
And don’t misread my reply as one of seriousness. Troll or not, my curiosity over the new lease on this book’s life still stands: what about moving the book makes it a better book, ie low sales are low sales by way of content, not company. Though snide, the question behind the comment is valid. As for your offer to “re-examine” my thinking, as a “hazard” of your profession … good lord could you possibly get any more pretentious? Seriously. And then capping it off with that smarmy sweater-wearing asshat “thanks for playing” comment … man … if that’s what you think passes for humor, then you must be a ghost writer for PAD.
buffybia:
>And don’t misread my reply as one of seriousness. Troll or not, my curiosity over the new lease on this book’s life still stands: what about moving the book makes it a better book, ie low sales are low sales by way of content, not company.
I am not a reader of the book and don't know the sales numbers, though acceptable sales numbers at IDW are most certainly lower than at DC. IDW is more likely willing to promote the book due to its subject matter fitting in fairly well with the rest of the company's product.
>Though snide, the question behind the comment is valid.
Then why not simply ask the question? The point you are making, though it may be valid, was lost in your lamenting of lost shelf space.
>As for your offer to “re-examine” my thinking, as a “hazard” of your profession … good lord could you possibly get any more pretentious? Seriously.
Possibly. Though, being a therapist, it is true. It's also a bit unseemly to attempt to play the victim here since you are the one initially provoking here.
>And then capping it off with that smarmy sweater-wearing asshat “thanks for playing” comment … man … if that’s what you think passes for humor, then you must be a ghost writer for PAD.
Nawwww... I'm not even in the ballpark as far as writing skills. The last comment was a write-off, since it appeared that you had no interest in genuine dialogue, valid questioning or discussion and were simply attempting to poke the PAD Blog with a stick.
Freddie,
>>I am not a reader of the book and don't know the sales numbers, though acceptable sales numbers at IDW are most certainly lower than at DC. IDW is more likely willing to promote the book due to its subject matter fitting in fairly well with the rest of the company's product.
Well, contrary to pop culture belief, promotion does not a good book/movie/music group/or TV show make.
>>Though snide, the question behind the comment is valid.
>Then why not simply ask the question? The point you are making, though it may be valid, was lost in your lamenting of lost shelf space.
sar·casm [ särkzm ] n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
>>As for your offer to “re-examine” my thinking, as a “hazard” of your profession … good lord could you possibly get any more pretentious? Seriously.
>Possibly. Though, being a therapist, it is true. It's also a bit unseemly to attempt to play the victim here since you are the one initially provoking here.
Victim? You've got to be kidding me. I call you pretentious and you see me playing a victim? I guess, for this, I have nothing to say but quote my old friend Sean Connery from an Jeopardy appearance he did a few years back:
SEAN CONNERY: Oh I'll play your game you rogue. Let's try the rapists for $20.
>>The last comment was a write-off, since it appeared that you had no interest in genuine dialogue, valid questioning or discussion and were simply attempting to poke the PAD Blog with a stick.
My voice, dissenting and sarcastic as it is, is every bit as genuine and valid as your rigid beliefs as to what is right and wrong for Blogs.
Regardless, my initial thought and point remains: crap is still crap no matter how you promote it.
PAD,
Congrats on the new publisher. Hope it does well. I may not be buying it since the book will MOST probably be $3.99 & that's a lot for a 22 page book.
I think that books will be $5 in a few years, thus there goes my comic book collecting. Thank God for the quarter bins.
good luck & much success, Peter
Joe V.
Hey Peter:
I am getting ready to turn in my Diamond order booklet tomorrow and noticed that you are doing a story for Moonstone. KOLCHAK. Your name alone is getting me to buy this title. What is the lowdown on this project?
Thanks
Buffybia and Fred,
Enough already. Regardless of whether or not you dig Fallen Angel, PAD obviously does care a lot about the book, so I am happy for him on that score. Let's return to that, shall we?
Buffybia- Your subsequent posts are unnecessarily rude to our host.
Fred - Offering someone the "chance to reexamine their thinking" simply because he initially pointed out an opinion different from most here is quite pretentious. If you were not so determined to "poke Buffybia with a stick" (a phrase you use quite frequently) and get the last word in, his subsequent harsher posts would likely not have been posted, and this thread would have kept it's positive tone.
Joe V,
Most comics will not go anywhere near $5 anytime soon. Many DC books are still $2.50. They are not about to double.
Companies like IDW, maybe, but they have a smaller print run and likely less money from ads, so the extra price is necessary.
So don't sweat it, man. There is a lot of good stuff to enjoy out there:)
"I am getting ready to turn in my Diamond order booklet tomorrow and noticed that you are doing a story for Moonstone. KOLCHAK. Your name alone is getting me to buy this title. What is the lowdown on this project?"
It's not that involved. They asked me to do a short comic story for them--I think it's a ten pager--and an actual prose short story, which is going to be in a collection. I've always had a fondness for the character, so I said I would, and I did. The comic story has Kolchak squaring off against a Medusa who's working as a high-powered fashion model. And the short story is a Kolchak vs. Vampire story told from the POV of a young vampire.
PAD
Jerome,
Fair enough.
Congrats to PAD for getting to continue to tell his story. I hope he takes responsibility for why it didn't do well under DC's banner and uses the new lease on the book's life to grow the story wisely.
I know this is getting dangerously off-topic, but will the ten-page story be included in the same collection as the prose story is?
Well I will order KOLCHAK as long as it contains any story prose or otherwise by you.
Hey with all the reprints that IDW is doing of First material, is there any chance that they may collect your DREADSTAR?
Wow, BuffyBia, I've seen some bad posts in my time, but yours takes the cake.
Congrats to PAD for getting to continue to tell his story. I hope he takes responsibility for why it didn't do well under DC's banner and uses the new lease on the book's life to grow the story wisely.
Personal tastes aside, that's just a wrongheaded statement to make. PAD shouldn't have to pander to what anyone thinks of his work. What is "wisely"? In a manner that you would personally enjoy? Like it or don't, a lot of things that are critically acclaimed (books, films) are sales failures. Doesn't mean anything is inherently wrong with the material itself. (You could equally claim it as an indictment that readers don't want anything "good" or "original" or whatever adjective you like to describe quality product.) Cuts both ways and nobody's right or wrong. Have you considered the failure of DC to adequately promote the product? The still-declining market? Etc.
Plenty of blame to go around. Don't let your personal biases get in the way. Sarcasm or otherwise, your attitude is shining through clear as crystal. Don't have a well-constructed argument as to why you dislike the series? Just posting to rock the boat and be rude for rudeness' sake (which I believe you are)? Post elsewhere.
~G.
Hey:
I am one of those who loved FALLEN ANGEL. This is not a NEWSRAMA thread BuffyBia, but the author's website. While Peter is willing to take criticism, you do not have to be a jerk about it. You have voiced your displeasure, so why bother doing it again and again. There must be a better way for you to consume your time. Perhaps writing your own comic?
FWIW, I'd never heard of Fallen Angel until I stumbled across this board (I knew PAD's name from his Trek novels; I never bothered checking who was writing the comics I was reading, so I never knew he war writing X-Factor). Since then, I've leafed through the first GN collection, and liked what I saw. I didn't buy it because by the time I found a copy (at the San Diego Comic-Con), our budget had been blown on T-shirts and Emily the Strange gear (oh, and two collections of JMS' Amazing Spider-Man - much better-promoted, much easier to find. Coincidence?).
I do plan on having a copy for the next Comic-Con - I just hope PAD's there, so I can get it signed, too... :-)
Point being, the promotion of this book was soo poor, if I hadn't accidentally stumbled across this blog while researching something else, I still wouldn't know it had ever existed. Not much sales possibility there. If IDW gives it good support, perhaps its sales figures will rise above the poorly-advertised DC numbers.
1
BuffyBia:
>>Fair enough.
Congrats to PAD for getting to continue to tell his story. I hope he takes responsibility for why it didn't do well under DC's banner and uses the new lease on the book's life to grow the story wisely.
--Let me get this straight. It's PAD's fault that the book didn't do well for DC? There's no other answer (or combination of answers) that could account for the book's low sales? It's all on PAD?
So does that mean when *any* comic fails it's solely the writers' fault? And--conversely--when *any* comic succeeds, it's solely the writers' success?
That means that books that I've loved over the years (such as Thunderbolts V1, Untold Tales of Spiderman, Black Panther) who saw lackluster sales were due to the writers. Fabian Niceiza, Kurt Busiek, Christopher Priest, they were the cause of those books' downfall. Darn them. Well, I'm glad I don't have to blame the market, the companies, the artists, promotion or anything else on the loss of those books.
And the success of a book like, oh, say ULTIMATES, rests solely on Mark Millar's shoulders, eh? Bryan Hitch has *nothing* to do with that.
I can't fathom that logic.
Please read what I said again: PAD will hopefully take responsibility for his book and the potential shortcomings that may or may not have caused the book to do poorly. To blindly blame others for the book's failure, especially when the book is now being given a new chance, is stupid and ignorant. Does that mean DC ISN'T to blame? No. Does that mean PAD needs to change everything and anything? Not necessarily, but he should at least look.
Sure, Christopher Priest's run on Black Panter, to use an example afforded to me, is "critically acclaimed." But it still failed, mainstream wise. Is it because the book sucked? Well, no, but I'm sure his predeliction to non-linear storytelling certainly aided in giving the book a low glass ceiling. IE ... his writing style, his responsibility, his decision.
That doesn't mean you should always pander, but you should always consider the option-NOT just blindly assume your work is golden and then shlump the blame onto someone else.
So, you're right, there is PLENTY of blame to go around but all the stories I've read regarding this ... soley places ... the blame .. on DC.
This shoulda been PAD's chance to gain more readers. I mean, last time I picked-up the book #1, I think) I thought it was (yet again) a poor-man's BTVS rip, but if he had humbled himself in the LEAST bit by hinting at examining what kept the book under the radar for most readers, I would've given the IDW #1 a shot while sitting at the shop. But ... alas, no.
As for me being a jerk, go back and check the posts. I make a cogent point and get my shit jumped by the Order of PAD zombies. Agree or disagree fine, but if you continue to harp on me I'll harp back. And I'll thank you all to allow me to be the judge of A) what I'm thinking and B) what I choose to do in my free time.
*poke*
"Please read what I said again: PAD will hopefully take responsibility for his book and the potential shortcomings that may or may not have caused the book to do poorly."
You know, I have done infinite mea culpas in terms of candidly discussing the challenges my deliberate choices for the book have presented in terms of garnering readers, in any number of interviews, and on this website. But you obviously missed all those. Then again, since "Fallen Angel" bears no resemblance to "Buffy" whatsoever, your observations don't seem to have much truck with accuracy. I will, however, note that John Byrne dismissed it as a "Buffy" rip-off--without having read it, of course--so you're in interesting company there.
PAD
I guess any story that has a strong female lead with super powers that beats up bad guys is a Buffy rip from now on. Guess that means that Joss's upcoming WW film will be nothing but a Buffy rip. Is Alias also a Buffy rip?
The only resemblance FA/Lee has to Buffy is that they've both got boobs...er, well, are both female. Bete Noir is not Sunnydale, Dolph is not Giles, etc. etc ad nausem. Anyone reading FA and calling it a Buffy rip is using the least amount of grey matter required to pound a dodecahedron into a round hole.
PAD-
Hadn't seen any of your "mea culpas", so please accept my mea culpa for speaking out of turn. As for keeping company with Byrne, never thought I'd find myself on that side, but so be it.
Without issue #1 in front of me right now, I can't "truck" my own case with any degree of specificity. However, I distinctly remember walking away from the book with a shoe-horned impression of the Buffy'verse, and I'm quite sure I didn't just make it up, as suggested. Maybe I had just read a super book beforehand, though. Anyway, with foot firmly planted in mouth regarding my now deflated point, I will dutifully give IDW's FA #1 a read.
Bobb-
Joss Whedon is far too talented of a writer to steal his own stuff. Given his severe feminist tendencies, though, I'm more than sure Buffy and WW will share similar characteristics, but in ways that will leave each to their own.
I mean that's one thing I think we can all agree on here, right? Joss is not the kind of writer that would glom specific mannerisms, characteristics, or situations of someone else's character onto his own, pre-existing characters. Right?
Nice ostentatious name calling, by the way. That kinda humor musta been quite punchy around the school yards ...
I'm not name calling...just saying that you're if all you can see in FA is a Buffy rip, you're either A) not using your eyes, or B), not using your brain.
The only similarities between Buffy and FA are either superficial (both strong female leads with a supernatural element) or generated by the similar strengths of their creators (both Joss and PAD share the ability to take conventional stereotypes and present them with an unconventional twist).
Joss steals his own stuff all the time. Although it's not really stealing, I guess. And I'd hardly call his tendencies "feminist." Check out the good guy body count during his Buffy/Angel run...he kills Buffy, Principal "dog-chow," Ms. Calendar, Doyle, Buffy's mom, Buffy (again), Tara, Xander's eye, Anya, Cordelia, Fred, and Wesley. that's 8 women to 3.1 men, and one of those wasn't even a major character (Jonathon was more bad guy when he died, so I can't really count him).
Are you suggesting that PAD does "glom specific mannerisms, characteristics, or situations of someone else's character onto his own, pre-existing characters?"...'cause...wow...I've never seen that. I've always seen one of PAD's strengths as being able to create new, interesting and unique characters.
Well, if you can't discern Whedon's feminist (stated denotatively) tendencies from his stories you're ... either A) not using your eyes, or B), not using your brain. Then again, you are equating "body counts" with said ideological belief, so ...
Anyway, just read up on the guy. It's all there.
Uh..feminist tendencies generally mean equality for women...which would lead me to think that he'd kill fewer women on his show...not more...writers that kill excessive women in their stories are often called misogynists. Worlds away from someone with feminist tendencies.
I'll fully admit that Joss is more than capable of writing strong female characters that are not stereotypes. but feminist? I will have to read up on him more.
Bobb, Joss Whedon has commented on his original thoughts regarding Buffy and stated that he wanted to get away from the weak, shrieking stereotype, developing a very strong leading woman. Feminist perspective focuses on empowerment and considering that Willow and Buffy are the two strongest characters on the show, by far....
"Uh..feminist tendencies generally mean equality for women...which would lead me to think that he'd kill fewer women on his show...not more...writers that kill excessive...."
You're, uh, leading yourself to think wrong, bud. That'd like be saying the Grand Wizard of the KKK likes blacks because he wrote a story in which the main character killed only Asian women. It is called not allowing your personal agenda to DOMINATE your story.
Just start looking at Whedon's Bush bashing comments and you'll see what I'm talking about.
BuffyBia, don't take this the wrong way, but you come off as a jerk. And I don't think you actually *are* a jerk, but you don't help yourself any.
"That'd like be saying the Grand Wizard of the KKK likes blacks because he wrote a story in which the main character killed only Asian women."
Not so much...I questioned Joss's "strong feminist tendencies" because he runs his female characters through the wringers more than his male characters...something a typical feminist would NOT do. If anything, the typical feminist would have the woman saving the male victim, which of course Joss has done, but also would not make the woman the victim as often as happens in the Buffyverse.
Your example lacks a correlation. If you said the GW hates Asian women 'cause he only killed Asian women in his story, that would be accurate. It makes a kind of sense that's...not.
I did find an IGN interview with Joss...so I understand what you mean now. He *does* have a radical feminist upbringing, but he also *loathes* when agendas drive the story.
Which, y'know, if you had just maybe explained, instead of being snarky, I'd not be left with the impression that you're a jerk. Like Fred (thanks, Fred).
"Maybe I had just read a super book beforehand, though. Anyway, with foot firmly planted in mouth regarding my now deflated point, I will dutifully give IDW's FA #1 a read."
Fair enough. All I ever ask is a fair reading. And believe me, the story I have planned for the first arc couldn't possibly be confused by ANYONE for something Buffyesque...unless, of course, they're JB and haven't read it.
PAD
Bobb,
I guess my example lacked the same kind of correlation your thinking did, huh.
Oh, wait.
Damn.
That was snarky, wasn't it.
Guess I'll just have to redub myself. Henceforth, I shall go by the handle of, SNARKYJERK.
Shiny.
Thank you.
Actually, BuffyBia, your example lacked any kinf of correlation. I was using apples and apples, (or women and women), you were using apples and oranges (women and black men).
Just a couple of additions to the male body count: Jesse (nice shock value there), Forrest, and Spike.
One more thing... please keep in mind that there were usually more female roles than male in BtVS and the death of the female character had more impact. (The one exception being Anya, which is explained by Whedon in his commentary for the finale on the DVD - namely that the fans would kill him if he killed one of the core four. ;)
"I will, however, note that John Byrne dismissed it as a "Buffy" rip-off--without having read it, of course--so you're in interesting company there."
I'm more or less convinced that JB is a full-blown sociopath (they're not that uncommon going by the statistics) after reading these quotes on top of all the usual ongoing lying, manipulation, extreme arrogance and egomania:
"The only acceptable response, now that we are officially in a new world, is for the American government to go Old Testament on these motherfuckers. Operation Flaming Sword. Find them and kill them. And kill their wives, their children, their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. Go Super-Israel, and let them know what it =feels= like to be "at war" with the United States."
"I've been thinking this since the various lunatic cells of the IRA began loudly declaring themselves "at war" with Great Britain, imagining immediately what woud happen if the British government said "Righty-Ho, war it is!" and sent over the RAF to turn Dublin into a smoking crater."
Using female to male kill ratios to gauge feminist inclinations is like comparing apples to oranges, check.
Roger, roger.
Wilco.
Out.
I was going to try one last time...but now SJ's just making himself look dumb. I'll stop feeding yet another troll, I guess.
Do these things come in threes? If so, I guess we have one more to tolerate.
Why does one thing have to be ripped off of something else just because they're supernatural dramas that share heroes of the same gender who happen to be occasionally sarcastic?
I mean, I never understood how anyone who read PAD's Supergirl could think it was a rip-off of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer if they had actually read it, but at least that comparison had couple storyline comparisons, namely the "chosen one" thing and the Town of Vaugely Defined, Dramtatically Convienent Mystical Convergence. Of course, "chosen ones" have shown up in almost every piece of fantasy fiction ever, and Sunnydale was certainly not the first of the aforementioned Towns, so that comparison is superficial and falls apart after a ten second though process. But at least it's there.
The only similarity between Fallen Angel and Buffy is the idea of prominent, powerful female characters. You can't even say "heroes" because Lee is such a gray area. And she isn't even blonde!
Next time you want to accuse someone of ripping somebody else off, come up with something better then the protaganists' chromosomes.
You know, "Fallen Angel" is far from my favorite book, but I will continue to give it a chance. Anybody who thinks there is any similarity to "Buffy" is obviously trying to see one. The characters, apart from being female, are nothing alike.
Wow.... incredible piece of art! That should draw some attention...
http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=c2619c70bffdaa409f083d99f345969d&threadid=36291