Naturally we watched it with an eye towards seeing how much everything matched up with Episode III.
The answer is, surprisingly well. And the main reason, I think, can be summarized in two words: Alec Guiness (or, if you prefer three words, Sir Alec Guiness).
Understand, I don't believe for a second that Lucas had already decided at the time that Leia and Luke were siblings, that Obi Wan was present at their birth. I'm even 50/50 that he'd decided Vader was Luke and Leia's father, or even Luke's father.
Most of the "mismatches" are centered around Obi-Wan, and thanks to Guiness' performance--and I chalk it up to Sir Alec since Lucas is notoriously "not there" for actors--it is VERY easy to read it that he is either lying or playing things very close to the vest. Not only does he greet RD as "my little friend," but when Luke IS conscious and R2 is beeping at him, Obi Wan fires R2 a look that could be taken, with no difficulty, as "Shut up. You've already said too much." And when he's explaining bits of his history to Luke, you can see the wheels turning as he's doing so. He alternates between looks of craftiness and being avuncular. These shadings that Guiness brought to the role left Lucas a ton of leeway in subsequent films.
Not Sir Alec-related, but I'm surprised how much the offhand bit about 3PO getting his memory wiped actually works. Because in episode 4, when Luke is asking him about past encounters with the Empire, 3PO says hesitantly, "We've been in several battles...I think." He sounds confused. If his memories had been wiped, it would make sense that there might be some memory bits still floating around in there--random flashes of images and such--that would cause him to vaguely recall that they'd seen action, but unclear as to the when or where.
And finally, for all those who complained that Anakin seemed to whine way too much...jeez, y'know, Mark Hamill is a dear friend, but sheesh, Luke whined as much as his dad. Listening to Anakin bitch about not being made a Master is evocative of Luke crabbing about not being able to go get power converters. Like father, like son.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at May 21, 2005 10:50 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingI just got home from Houston to see the movie and I agree with you. Guiness put so much nuance into the Obi Wan character that he almost wrote what Ewan needed to do for this movie.
It's kind of funny. My wife's biggest beef with EPISODE III was that when Luke was born he had brown eyes, but Mark Hamill's were blue. So much for that matching up.
I have to agree that Lucas may have had some general ideas where he wanted to take things, but it's pretty clear that the addition of other writers on EPISODE V and EPISODE IV added to the story considerably. As much as I like STAR WARS Lucas' writing always left a lot to be desired.
PAD, you always were a master at getting a series inconsistencies to work plot points. Who else would have said "James R. Kirk" was a practical joke on Gary Mitchell's part?
Of course, had I written Q SQUARED, I'd have said it was because of Mitchell's favorite noir writer.
Of course, at present he could read my entire backlist in five seconds, but I'm thinking ahead.
After coming home from the midnight show of _Revenge of the Sith_, I too went straight to episode four and came away thinking the same thing about Guiness' performance. Did he know how things would play out? 'Course not; but he brings such depth to each character that he created plenty of space for us to now make those connections.
When all is said and done, the greatest thing that _Star Wars_ did for me was provide an introduction to Alec Guiness. I was 10 when the first _Star Wars_ came out, and by the time I was twelve I had seen all the major films Guiness did with David Lean.
Greatest actor I've ever seen - period.
Mark
Peter David: Understand, I don't believe for a second that Lucas had already decided at the time that Leia and Luke were siblings, that Obi Wan was present at their birth. I'm even 50/50 that he'd decided Vader was Luke and Leia's father, or even Luke's father.
Luigi Novi: Actually, I seem to recall that he flat-out stated that he thought of that only when making Empire Strikes Back.
I'm even 50/50 that he'd decided Vader was Luke and Leia's father, or even Luke's father.
I was going to directly contradict Luigi there and bring up the "Dark Father" thing, but a quick websearch tells me not to be too confident. Still...I dunno, I kinda think he had this one in the back of his mind, if only because of the number of Vader/father discussions in ANH. Plus, the irony of seeing Ben Kenobi, Luke's mentor and father figure, squaring off against Vader, his real father, is...yeah.
Actually the thing that hit me, and my wife, like a hammer was Leia's comments in Jedi about her "real mother". She was very beautiful, but kind of sad... and a little dead.
Well, there's no reason to think she wasn't referring to Mrs. Organa. She had no reason to think she wasn't a natural-born Organa at that point. And it isn't a stretch to think of Mrs. Organa being a little sad knowing who Leia's real mother was and what happened (and living in a galaxy falling under the ever-increasing grip of the Empire).
I ran out and bought the DVD trilogy and I am finding the same things. It would have been nice to have some more Vader/Obi interaction. But things fit. Would Chewie have remembered Obi Wan?
Of course Lucas intended Vader to be Luke's father from the getgo. Not only did he plan out the general outline of all 9 planned episodes from the getgo, but "vader" is the Dutch word for "father".
"I'm even 50/50 that he'd decided Vader was Luke and Leia's father"
I can't say for Leia, but a radio news reporter I knew back in '77 told me then that some of her sources in the U.S. had informed her of the fact that Vader was Luke's father. So, it is fair to assume Lucas had planned it all along. It's one of those things which sticks in memory in my case because I remember thinking at the time she'd told me "Oh, God, how corny!" Still, give Lucas his due, he made it work in EMPIRE and later.
One thing I appreciated after seeing the new trilogy was how much Luke and Anakin had in common. Luke's arrogance and temper were definitely a shadow of his father's.
Well yes, Luke whines...but he pretty much gets over it once they hit the Death Star and goes into hero time...
Not even geting the James Earl Jones voice box stops Anakin from whining.
If his memories had been wiped, it would make sense that there might be some memory bits still floating around in there
Except that his memory had been wiped something like 16-20 years before...
In a similar vein, the one thing that has helped me make the connection between the new trilogy and the old is Ewen MacGregor's excellent performance as Obi-Wan, probably the best acting job in any of these movies. from the beginning, he has done an excellent job of being a "young Alec Guiness." in appearance, voice, speaking style and mannerisms, i could really see him as eventually becoming Ben, polite snarkiness and all. that really helped make those movies for me. or at least the first two. haven't seen the third. probably next Sunday....
Ah, but you all forget that Anakin made an appearance on Hoth with Obi-wan in one of the first drafts of Empire, and at the time Lucas credited screenwriter Leigh Brackett entirely with coming up with the idea of Vader being Luke's daddy. I think this is the case of writing on the cuff, and doing it so well that it gives the appearance of being planned the entire time. I also recall an interview with the woman who played Aunt Beru in an issue of the Star Wars magazine many years ago in which she said her many "knowing" looks and such which we all take to be her knowledge of the Anakin/darth connection were only meant to be looks of motherly concern that he may follow anakin and die as a jedi somewhere. At the time, she mentioned, the backstory was exactly as the movie says: Anakin was a jedi who was murdered by Darth (just one of the many).
I remember once asking John Byrne (a hated name around here?) some question about a very early issue of the phoenix saga and how welll they had it planned to make it flow so well together; he laughed and said it was written entirely issue to issue with no plan at all. Which surprised the hell out of me, since you read thru that and it seems like they are planting seeds for the dark phoenix transformation right at the start.
Memorial Day Weekend Game Plan:
1.) Watch (Suffer Through) EPs 1 & 2
2.) Go see Ep 3
3.) Come home and watch IV-VI
Hey, if Hamill can play a whiner with such conviction maybe there's room for him on the re-vamped Left, I mean, West Wing!!
Funny you should mention the Luke/Anakin whining. A buddy and I were talking about the very same thing last night and I said the same thing, like father like son. Luke is so annoying in that first movie.
Further to the like father, like son thing -- Ep.3 really strengthens Luke's character through IV-VI. Now that we've seen his father, who was much like him, actually succumb to the dark side, Luke's refusal to do so in VI is a much more dramatic feat. And so on and so forth. I really liked III, the more that I think on it.
I don't think enough has been written about Alec Guinness and his overall importance to the first Star Wars film. Bear in mind that most of the British crew at the time thought the film was going to be absolute rubbish, and there was a very real divide between the well-established British cast of supporting actors, and the young, largely inexperienced stars such as Hamill, Ford and Fisher. I think the presence of Guinness went quite a long way in terms of convincing people, gosh, if he's working on this film, maybe there's something too it after all! By all accounts a lot of people on the cast and crew took their lead from Guinness, and Lucas reportedly rewarded him with a couple of percentage points of the profits, probably more money than the actor had made for most of his career. This is not to say that Guinness ever thought he was creating a landmark of modern cinema; he was just being a professional, and as the elder statesman on the film, he doubtless felt there was a certainly responsibility on his shoulders to lead by example.
Playing off of that, Matt, what struck me the most about Ep. III in relation to VI was Obi-Wan's last failure, at Mustafar. When Anakin's lying on the ground doing his best Black Knight impression, Obi-Wan shouts recriminations at him, watches the lava start to burn his body, and then turns and walks away. Watching the scene, I couldn't help but feel that that was the last chance to salvage everything, including Anakin's soul. He could have taken Anakin with him, tried to turn him back from the Dark Side. Heck, I wanted to scream at the screen, "Save him, dammit!" But instead, Obi-Wan let his hate, either for Anakin or himself (or maybe both) cloud his judgement, and was unable to show the most important quality of the Light Side, forgiveness.
Contrast this with Luke in Episode VI, who does show that quality when he refuses to kill Vader, and in so doing, shows his father the path back to the Light Side. In that moment, he surpasses both his father figures. When he says "I am a Jedi, like my father before me," he's more right than he knows.
As an aside, that scene also wipes away the last shreds of credibility Obi-Wan has during his argument with Luke on Dagobah in Episode VI. "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil." Yeah, and whose fault is that, you dick?
// Of course Lucas intended Vader to be Luke's father from the getgo. Not only did he plan out the general outline of all 9 planned episodes from the getgo, but "vader" is the Dutch word for "father". //
Lucus did not plan all nine movies from the onset. That's the story he told after the success of the original but not the story he was telling way back when. The idea of Vader being Lukes father was originally credited to screenwriter Leah Bracket, (who wrote Empire Strikes Back). Before the orginal movie was released Lucus was already thinking of a sequel but he figured it was have to be done even cheaper then the first one, (no one expected the first one to make any money, never mind become the biggest sucess in the history of American film, that's why Fox had no problem letting Lucus keep the rights, a mistake that goes along side Decca Records turning down the Beatles (because guitar bands were on the way out) as one of the biggest misjudgements in the history of the Entertainment bussiness). Lucus hired Allen Dean Foster, (who wrote the novelazation of the first film) to come up with a story for a sequel that could be done on an even cheaper budget then the first film. The Story Foster came up with took place mostly on a foggy swamp planet, featured only Luke, Leia and Vader, and has several things that contridicted the later movies, (like more romantic involvement between Luke and Lea, Vader using the force to induce sexual dreams in Lea, Luke having a force induced dream of his father, (who was clearly not Vader). Lucus approved all of this. When Star Wars became a hit he realized he could do a film that was bigger then the first and gave his permission to Foster to turn his script outline into a novel, (Splinter in the Minds Eye). Lucus also told Marvel Comics what they couldn't do in the comics, and those restrictions are one of the reasons why Roy Thomas, (Lucus' own choice to handle the comics) stopped writing them. One of the things he didn't restict Marvel from doing was a flashback story (Written by Cris Clarmont I believe) that had Obi-Wan, Vader and Lukes farther, (clearly not Vader) having a adventure during the clone wars. Now it's entirly possible that Lucus himself knew nothing of this story but one has to wonder why he didn't include the "don't show Luke's father" in his list of other restictions he gave to the comic book creators back then, and when one thinks that way one must conclude that it's probably because Vader wasn't Luke's father yet.
Lucus is a natural born mythmaker, and a natural born marketer. And like all great mythmakers he's very good at creating a mytholigy about himself. Saying "I wrote the outline for all nine films when I was 19" is simply more impressive then saying he made a movie that became bigger then he ever thought it was and with the help of others was able to use that movie as a template to create a spawing saga. Star Wars was out for almost a year before he began talking about his ideas for a saga of 12 movies, (yes originally it was 12, that went down to 9 then finally to 6), the "saga" bit is mentioned in none of his early interviews. Books released at the time of the fist filem included early concept art and script notes for the first film that doesn't even have Luke in then, but a griseled old space prirate, (Han)and a princess (Lea). And at one point in that development it was a space pirate and two twins (Luke and Lea, an idea Lucus came back to obviously). Even when developing the first film Lucus went though several changes, (as does any screenwriter), the idea that he had an outline for all 9 films written back when he was in college just doens't jive with that, but it does however make for a better story, so that's what the story became.
Sure, Luke whined. He's a simple teen farm boy. Annakin had a decade of training in a supposedly disciplined order.
About Luke's eyes being brown when he was born and blue in ANH? Duh, the Spice.
Adding to the true history of Star Wars as listed above: the decision to make Luke and Leia siblings didn't come about until "Return of the Jedi".
In "Empire", when Obi-Wan says that Luke is their only hope, Yoda replys that there is another. In hindsight we know this to be Leia, but at the time Luke's real sister was a characyer that hadn't been seen yet, hidden at the far side of the galaxy. When production on "Jedi" started, Lucas blended Leia with the sister character. That explains why Vader didn't send the Force in Leia during "A New Hope" and "Empire" even though he was standing right in front of her. She was not yet his daughter.
The notion that Lucas had these stories mapped out in advance in pure myth. He simply made them up as he went along. Nothing wrong with that, but he's not being honest about it.
"No, there is another" always gnawed at me. Maybe it's just the feminist in me talking, but wouldn't it have been cool if somewhere in RotJ, Leia suddenly exhibited a MASSIVE Force power that she didn't know she had?
Would've been so awesome...
*sigh*
>>Dean Wells: When production on "Jedi" started, Lucas blended Leia with the sister character. That explains why Vader didn't send the Force in Leia during "A New Hope" and "Empire" even though he was standing right in front of her. She was not yet his daughter.
During New Hope I understand that, but not Empire. It was fairly obvious from the book and the movie that Leia was his sister in Empire. I forget exactly what Yoda said, "There is another" or something and then Leia hearing Luke call her through the Force made it clear that was the direction they were going.
KIP
Queen Anthai wrote ""No, there is another" always gnawed at me. Maybe it's just the feminist in me talking, but wouldn't it have been cool if somewhere in RotJ, Leia suddenly exhibited a MASSIVE Force power that she didn't know she had?
Would've been so awesome..."
But she did! After all, strangling Jabba certainly took more strength than an ordinary human could possess. And she didn't seem to struggle too much while doing it.
And somebody should really ask where did Lucas get his obsession with chopped arms. I mean, in every movie of the saga, there's one or more characters who loses one or both hands.
What REALLY kills me about "No, there is another" is that you'd think Obi-Wan, having actually been there when the twins are born, wouldn't have needed to say "That boy is our last hope." He'd already have known about Leia. Further proof, I guess, that Lucas was winging it.
"It was fairly obvious from the book and the movie that Leia was his sister in Empire."
Yeah, that fairly obvious sequence where Leia practically put her tongue down Luke's throat in the hospital was the sure-fire tip off. First time I saw it I said, "That clinches it for me. They're siblings." Yes, I know she was doing it to make Han jealous, but when I saw the film re-released a few years ago, the moment they liplocked the entire audience, now knowing the truth, uniformly said "Ewwwwww."
"What REALLY kills me about "No, there is another" is that you'd think Obi-Wan, having actually been there when the twins are born, wouldn't have needed to say "That boy is our last hope." He'd already have known about Leia. Further proof, I guess, that Lucas was winging it."
Understand, I don't disagree. I think Lucas was indeed winging it. But it could be argued that, if the scene hadn't been cut where it was, Obi Wan could have responded to Yoda, "You must be referring to Leia. But she's shown no talent for the force at all." To which Yoda could respond, "Possibilities have I foreseen," etc.
To me, it was screamingly obvious that Leia was "the other." The hands-down, slam dunk moment was when she reacted to Luke's plight by sensing his distress and knowing they had to return to Bespin. But that didn't automatically mean they were sibs. Keep something in mind: There was no guarantee that Harrison Ford would be returning for the third film. That's part of the reason they stuck him in carbonite. I'm thinking that if Han Solo had remained a coffee table, Luke and Leia wind up together to make Jedi babies and there's no family connection at all. But when Ford signed up for the third film, Lucas needed a fast, simple way to have Leia wind up with Han in order to pay off the romance, and the sibling angle was it.
PAD
"What REALLY kills me about "No, there is another" is that you'd think Obi-Wan, having actually been there when the twins are born, wouldn't have needed to say "That boy is our last hope." He'd already have known about Leia. Further proof, I guess, that Lucas was winging it."
Understand, I don't disagree. I think Lucas was indeed winging it. But it could be argued that, if the scene hadn't been cut where it was, Obi Wan could have responded to Yoda, "You must be referring to Leia. But she's shown no talent for the force at all." To which Yoda could respond, "Possibilities have I foreseen," etc.
Another interpretation is that Yoda is referring to Darth--and indeed, it is he who ultimately defeats the emperor.
Ok, here's another question. Why did Obi Wan leave Luke with his family instead of training him in secret on tatooine (or, conversely, somewhere more logical, like anywhere else in the galaxy)? Now mind you, I think the fact that Luke got as little Jedi training as possible was all to the good. It should not escape anyone's attention that 3 of the most powerful people in the series--Luke, Darth and Palpatine--got little, some and no training, respectively. i think that growing up in a family and not getting force fed Jedi BS in his formative years made Luke a far more powerful warrior than he would have been had he been raised like veal in the Jedi academy. But it's surprising that Obi and Yoda would recognize this.
It should not escape anyone's attention that 3 of the most powerful people in the series--Luke, Darth and Palpatine--got little, some and no training, respectively.
Darth was trained by the Jedi since he was what? Six? Fifteen years of jedi training before he goes bad doesn't sound like "some". Plus, he'd then get Sith training from Palpatine. And Palpatine didn't get no training -- he got no Jedi training. He was a Sith Lord, which presumably means he followed the Sith pattern of learning everything from his master then killing him.
The prequels have really left me thinking that the Jedi philosophy didn't help their cause. Yoda saying "oh, you're afraid of losing what you love? Just stop loving things"... yeah.
The one moment for me in Episode 4 that works so well in hindsight is when Luke tells Ben "I want to be a Jedi. Like my father." The look Alec Guiness has on his face before giving a tolerant smile is priceless, akin to Luke having given him a verbal kick in the happy-sacks.
"Darth was trained by the Jedi since he was what? Six? Fifteen years of jedi training before he goes bad doesn't sound like "some". Plus, he'd then get Sith training from Palpatine. And Palpatine didn't get no training -- he got no Jedi training. He was a Sith Lord, which presumably means he followed the Sith pattern of learning everything from his master then killing him."
Well, yeah, Jedi training was what I was talking about. And certainly it's true that Anakin got the most Jedi training of the three--and look how great THAT turned out! But also not that having missed those fist 6 years was considered so important that the council was willing to let this prodigy slip through their fingers. Apparently Jedi indoctrination is so fragile that if it isn't ground into your head before you get toilet trained it just doesn't take.
I agree that Yoda's philosphy was no damn help at all and besides, for people who preach that "desire nothing, you should" they spend a lot of time trying to get things to go their way.
That's why I hold that Anakin Skywalker truly did fulfill the prophecy, and restore balance to the Force.
The Jedi taught all of their students to deny half of their humanity (or whatever species they were - you know what I mean). No desire, no anger, no connections... They ignored the power of righteous anger, which does not necessarily lead to other bad feelings. If you let anger guide you, it will destroy you, even in real life, but anger can be used as a fuel to righteous behavior, as well.
The Sith denied the other half - claiming that honor, honesty, and compassion were weaknesses, and that power should be desired only for its own sake. It has been observed that hatred is an acid that destroys its own container, and that is certainly true of the Sith I've seen - Maul, had he been thinking with his brain, would have chopped Obi-wan's hands off and let him fall to his death (see, there's that hand thing again!). Instead, he toyed with his opponent - and was destroyed.
Luke Skywalker was raised to be a good man, rather than being marinated in the philosophy of helplessness that doomed the Jedi, or being exposed to the philosophy of bleakness that was the Sith's fatal flaw. He was able to experience the entire panoply of human emotion - good and bad, love and hate - and he learned to balance this. All of that was only possible because Anakin, his father, had destroyed the Jedi Order that would have twisted his thinking as a child, and because, due to their fear of his father, the last remaining Jedi hid him from the Sith and their machinations. Luke was thus free to start a new order of Jedi, one more grounded in the world - and thus did Anakin restore a balance that had been unbalanced for thousands of years.
Jonathon,
I like that. Its better than my explanation, which has always been "before Anakin there were lots of Jedi and only two Sith. After Anakin there were only two Jedi and two Sith. See, balance. Jedi are stupid."
Ok, here's another question. Why did Obi Wan leave Luke with his family instead of training him in secret on tatooine (or, conversely, somewhere more logical, like anywhere else in the galaxy)?
It's possible that had Luke been trained by Obi-Wan from the start, Vader and the Emperor would have sensed the increase use of the force and the growing power of another Skywalker. It would be too risky to have Luke discovered as a child and therefore they had to wait until he was old enough to begin the training.
The prequels have really left me thinking that the Jedi philosophy didn't help their cause. Yoda saying "oh, you're afraid of losing what you love? Just stop loving things"... yeah.
In fairness, Yoda's pronouncements of Jedi philosophy are reminiscent of Buddhism--suffering is caused by desire; to be free of suffering, one must be free of desire etc.--and that seems to have caught on with more than a few people...
Nate wrote:
It's possible that had Luke been trained by Obi-Wan from the start, Vader and the Emperor would have sensed the increase use of the force and the growing power of another Skywalker. It would be too risky to have Luke discovered as a child and therefore they had to wait until he was old enough to begin the training.
I think that Luke was left in the open as "bait" so that Vader/Palpatine weren't running around the galaxy looking for Padme's child. Easily found, if so desired, but nothing to lead them on to another jedi child.
Leia probably didn't have as many midi-chlorians.
There ya go.
Posted by Darren J Hudak at May 22, 2005 10:42 AM
Allen Dean Foster, (who wrote the novelazation of the first film)
Ummm -- (A) last i heard Lucas was still claiming to have written that book himself (it came out over his sole byline) and (B) at the time the (very strong) rumour was that there had, indeed, been a ghost, but that Foster was not the spook in question. A specific name was named, but, having never had definite confirmation (not even as much as for some other books that Ron Goulart is alleged to have dumbed down his writing for), i'm not repeating it here.
Leia probably didn't have as many midi-chlorians.
Ugh, don't even get me started on that...
So, once Vader lost both arms AND both legs, does that mean he has less midi-chlorians than before? That might explain why his final duel with Obi-Wan aboard the Death Star was so damn stiff and weak. :)
Back to Leia sensing Luke's plea in "Empire", one can argue that at the time, Leia didn't demonstrate any Force powers at all. Luke used the Force to send his thoughts to Leia, and thus she heard him. A variation of Obi-Wans' Jedi Mind Trick. Now in hindsight, we know that Leia had Force powers of her own. It's still a retcon.
I noticed some Christian Nutballs getting upset on radio about Yoda's "Do not be attached" speech. Really though he never says don't love or deny your humanity. What he's telling Anakin is specific to Anakin's problem. Anakin thinks he's going to lose Padme and Yoda is telling him that even if he does, it will be ok. Yoda is pointing out basically what .38 Special said years ago "When you cling too tightly you're gonna lose control" ;)
Also some are upset about the whole communing with the dead thing but that's just sillyness.
Oh and I like the idea that Yoda could've been talking about Anakin when he said "There is another". Hindsight, it's gotta be Leia but still....Everyone says Leia knows her mom thru the force or that she's referring to Organa but isn't it possible she's seen pictures? That got me to thinking....noone has pictures in this whole stinkin' universe! lol Even the Stormtroopers looking for the droids on Tatooine don't have their pictures! LOL
Michael J Norton
On a note about stuff "matching up" between the trilogies, I have to say one that really works for me after seeing Episode III is the Hayden Christensen ghost at the end of the "Jedi" DVD.
Wha..huh? Hey! Stop throwing stuff at me! No, really. I like it. Yes, it was inserted later so its not really. Yes, it doesn't make a lick of sense that Luke is smilling away, or why Anakin appears as a young man (even if you do buy into the "Anakin died on Mustafar" argument), or why he gets to mack it up in the afterlife as a 20something ghost while Obi-Wan and Yoda get to be old farts, or anything.
But - emotionally, I think it works well. Because, viewing all 6 as one big movie, the last time you saw Anakin (ie. Hayden Christesen) he was a pretty pathetic display. (I don't mean "NOOOOO!!", I mean him being destoryed & chopped up). Seeing him "alive" and well and smilling at the end of "Jedi" gives it the mega-happy feeling that counteracts the total downer of what happens to him in Episode 3.
Yah, kind of off topic, so I apologize. But, it does match up well. I think.
"Ah, but you all forget that Anakin made an appearance on Hoth with Obi-wan in one of the first drafts of Empire, and at the time Lucas credited screenwriter Leigh Brackett entirely with coming up with the idea of Vader being Luke's daddy."
Does anyone have any source about this? I've never heard anyone but Lucas' himself being credited with the idea.
Keep something in mind: There was no guarantee that Harrison Ford would be returning for the third film. That's part of the reason they stuck him in carbonite. I'm thinking that if Han Solo had remained a coffee table, Luke and Leia wind up together to make Jedi babies and there's no family connection at all. But when Ford signed up for the third film, Lucas needed a fast, simple way to have Leia wind up with Han in order to pay off the romance, and the sibling angle was it.
How could they, storywise, have just left Han as a coffee table? And given how heavily the Han/Leia romance was set-up in Empire, it seems to me they'd much more need a way to explain a sudden Luke/Leia romance.
Does anyone have any source about this? I've never heard anyone but Lucas' himself being credited with the idea.
I have the anotated screenplays (not handy, but I got 'em) and I think he got it backwards -- the 1st draft didn't have any mention of Vader as the Father. That was Lucas' idea and he was still playing it close to the vest, unsure, and didn't tell her. Then she passed on, and in subsequent drafts, the Father angle came out.
And given how heavily the Han/Leia romance was set-up in Empire, it seems to me they'd much more need a way to explain a sudden Luke/Leia romance.
"Don't worry, Leia, Han would have wanted it this way."
Simple.
In regards to whether Alan Dean Foster or George Lucas wrote the original novelization of 'Star Wars'--it was Foster. Certainly, every source I've ever heard of cites Foster as the ghostwriter in question, including his own bibliography:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/mastone3/foster/Books.html
which seems pretty definitive, unless he's heading for a lawsuit I haven't heard about. :)
Forgive me if someone has already commented on this:
Did anyone else look at General Grevious' personal ground transport and instantly remember Mr. Garrison's invention of IT on SOUTH PARK?
I wonder which controls Grevious used?
"I have the anotated screenplays (not handy, but I got 'em) and I think he got it backwards -- the 1st draft didn't have any mention of Vader as the Father. That was Lucas' idea and he was still playing it close to the vest, unsure, and didn't tell her. Then she passed on, and in subsequent drafts, the Father angle came out."
Yep, that's how I know the story. In fact, IIRC, the Leigh Brackett draft wasn't used at all and it was completely rewrote by Kasdan.
But after the first guy I quoted someone else repeated the same thing. Did somehow Lucas gain the power to manipulate space and time and erase any source crediting Brackett with the idea? Or it's just an unsubstantiated rumour or misremembering?
// Does anyone have any source about this? I've never heard anyone but Lucas' himself being credited with the idea.
I have the anotated screenplays (not handy, but I got 'em) and I think he got it backwards -- the 1st draft didn't have any mention of Vader as the Father. That was Lucas' idea and he was still playing it close to the vest, unsure, and didn't tell her. Then she passed on, and in subsequent drafts, the Father angle came out. //
I don't care what the annotated screenplays say, when Empire was being released Lucus was interviewed in Rolling Stone, (or maybe it was Starlog I forget) and he gave credit to Bracket for that little plot point, it was only after the fact that it became "always his idea from the very beginning". Lucus has since been very dismissive of Bracket contribution to his mythos claiming that she didn't even contribute to the filmed screenplay and it was mostly his work but he left her name on it as a favor since she just passed away and her husband needed the money. Anyone who knows how screenplay credits in Hollywood are determined knows this is BS. A producer cannot just decide who gets credit, the writers guild does. But as I said, it makes for a better myth.
// Keep something in mind: There was no guarantee that Harrison Ford would be returning for the third film. That's part of the reason they stuck him in carbonite. I'm thinking that if Han Solo had remained a coffee table, Luke and Leia wind up together to make Jedi babies and there's no family connection at all. But when Ford signed up for the third film, Lucas needed a fast, simple way to have Leia wind up with Han in order to pay off the romance, and the sibling angle was it.
How could they, storywise, have just left Han as a coffee table? And given how heavily the Han/Leia romance was set-up in Empire, it seems to me they'd much more need a way to explain a sudden Luke/Leia romance. //
A Luke/Lea romance was already built up in the first movie, watch the first movie again, in that movie it was Luke who was in love with her not Han, (and after a bit Lea was impressed with him). There was some rivarly with Han but Han was a guy who had "been around the block a few times" and wasn't really impressed with her. All the licenced material that came out between the first and second movie, (the comics, the comic strip, the novel, even the Thanksgiven special), played on the romantic tension between Luke and Lea, it wasn't to the second movie that it was suddenly Han and Lea and Luke who didn't seem all that interested.
// Allen Dean Foster, (who wrote the novelazation of the first film)
Ummm -- (A) last i heard Lucas was still claiming to have written that book himself (it came out over his sole byline) and (B) at the time the (very strong) rumour was that there had, indeed, been a ghost, but that Foster was not the spook in question. A specific name was named, but, having never had definite confirmation (not even as much as for some other books that Ron Goulart is alleged to have dumbed down his writing for), i'm not repeating it here. //
Even at the time it was realeased it was one of the worst kept secrets that Foster wrote the novel, when the novels were rereleased a few years ago an introduction was added, writen by Lucus, who confirmed that it was indeed Foster, (not him), who wrote the novel. At the time it was quite common for the filmmakers name to be on the novelazation even though I can't think of a single one where the filmmaker actually wrote it, not sure why but at the time Hollywood wanted you to think that the auters did eveyrthing, the original Star Wars novel came out during this period. That practice is no longer used much.
I can confirm for an absolute fact that ADF did write the novelization of the first film. I know this from my time at Del Rey and the fact that we added his bio to one of the complilations of the movie novelizations
To me, it was screamingly obvious that Leia was "the other." The hands-down, slam dunk moment was when she reacted to Luke's plight by sensing his distress and knowing they had to return to Bespin.
Also, the not-so-obvious reason: right after Yoda says "There is another", they slowly transition the scene back to Bespin. The next PERSON you see, though is Leia.
I was just a little ticked the first time I saw Empire after Jedi and realized that. :)
Posted by Matt Adler at May 23, 2005 03:49 AM
>How could they, storywise, have just left Han as
> a coffee table? And given how heavily the
> Han/Leia romance was set-up in Empire, it seems
> to me they'd much more need a way to explain a
> sudden Luke/Leia romance.
Luke could have been a clone of Han?
Wait.
The twins COULD have been Han and Luke, with Han being aged by the Jedi's PAST the 6 year old (or whatever age) age limit for Jedi's to start in the academy.
No?
Leia says "good riddance to bad rubbish"??
OK, I got nothin'
Yeah, sure, that's all well and good, but what I want to know is, why didn't Yoda add in after "to his family take him".... "AND NAME HIM LARS! LIKE BAIL IS NAMING LEIA ORGANA! ANYTHING BUT SKYWALKER! You got that Obi-Wan?"
I'm just sayin', a kid named Skywalker, living with the Lars' family, on Tatooine?
-Joe
Nice column by PAD, nice comments by his readers. This has been a good thread that hasn't disintegrated, as a few other Sith threads on other board have, to name-calling over personal taste.
On the subject of bringing balance to the Force, I've been contemplating a couple balances/symmetries to the six films over the past couple months. One of these symmetries was fulfilled by ROTS, but one was left unbalanced.
The unbalanced one: Have you ever noticed that the final scenes in the fourth and first, and in the fifth and second, films mirror each other? That is, the the film shots are blocked and shot are in many ways identical?
Episode IV ends with our cast facing the camera before a cheering crowd, having just received awards and acclaim. So does Episode I.
V ends with our hero and heroine facing away from the camera, arm-in-artificial arm, looking out and away into their uncertain future, while C-3PO and R2-D2 stand to their right. So does II.
VI ends with our cast of heroes jubiliant clapping their hands (well, at least one of them) and beaming happily as they celebrate their success while a band plays and Muppets dance. III ends...well, it didn't end with the same shot. But for months before this, I hypothesized that III would end with Darth, Palpatine, Grievous and Dooku dancing and clapping their hands amongst the skulls of their enemies while battle droids dance around them. Luckily...we didn't get that.
But...it occured to me this weekend: Lucas could still make VI and III have similar-shot endings if he indulges in another of his usual "let's tweak the classics" ILM shots: instead of the very final shot of Jedi being the dancing Ewoks and clapping Lando, CGI us a scene with Luke, Leia, and Han cast in shadow against the firelight of the Ewok village, gazing away into the two lights of the Endor moon's sky: Endor and the burning blaze of the Death Star II. Cue end music, bring up credits. Well, it could happen.
The second symmetry was completed, in fact even before we saw Episode III. Has anyone noticed that the titles of the films mirror each other:
A New Hope. The Phantom Menace. Two ambigious, amorphous forces emerge, one for good, one for evil.
The Empire Strikes Back. Attack of the Clones. Battle-action-verb of soldiers attacking: one force for bad, one force for good.
Return of the Jedi. Revenge of the Sith. No better mirror than these two forces (good/evil) and their galaxy-changing actions.
When I thought about this a while, it began to sink in what a perfect title The Phantom Menace was after all, even though a lot of people disliked it when they first heard it.
I was 15 when I first saw Star Wars. I'm 43 today when I saw Return of the Sith. Regardless of how you feel about any of the movies--what other fictional phenomnon can you say has captured people not only from those different age ranges but has sustained the love and excitement for people from the first to the second age? The Force is with us, indeed. And I'll miss these films.
John DiBello: "Has anyone noticed that the titles of the films mirror each other... When I thought about this a while, it began to sink in what a perfect title The Phantom Menace was after all, even though a lot of people disliked it when they first heard it"
The mirroring of various things in the films is definitely something we are supposed to see. I still don't like The Phantom Menace as a title of the first film. John, please tell me how you think it is good.
I also think Attack of the Clones is a terrible title for the second film. It fits better for the third film than the second. Maybe, The Clone Mystery or something along those lines (Send in the Clones?) would have been better.
Neil
1 Saw Episode 3 and enjoyed it. I thought it was good considering what was left to do. I have one nitpick about the new trilogy that I've discussed with other hardcore Star Wars fans and wonder what you all think.
My though is that they killed QUi-Gon too early and could have used him as the entertaining Han-Solo like character to carry you through three movies.
A possible alternate telling of the new trilogy could have gone like this:
- Qui-Gon lives and becomes the fun uncle type Jedi Master to Anakin. Obi-Wan always wanting to stick to the rules and QUi-Gon being a little rebellious.
- Qui Gon in Episode 2 and 3 starts to take on the Mace Windu stance (Samuel Jackson's character). Qui-Gon and Mace Windu can agree on this matter to still give Jackson a significant role. He sees the rebelliousness of Anakin as dangerous and needing time to quell before making him a Master. This causes tension between Qui-Gon and Anakin.
- It is Qui-Gon that goes to arrest the Emperor and Anakin kills Qui-Gon. This would have been a LOT more dramatic. Anakin falls for the Emperor's lies and the Empreror says that QUi-Gon is jealous etc and etc and in the moment of weakness he kills Qui-Gon.
- THEN during the Godfather-esq slaying of all the Jedi - have the Samuel Jackson character go out in a blaze of glory. Al the other Jedi were betrayed and seemingly were killed easily - but everyone would have loved to see Samuel Jackson slay some Empire scum with "furious anger"!
- Obi-Wan confronts Anakin at the end and QUi-Gon appears to him and tells him what happened and how ANakin has completely chose the Dark Side. This would give Obi-Wan's battle with Anakin more feeling. Obi-Wan would be fighting a jedi he helped train who then went on to kill his own Master.
I think this would have made the new trilogy more exciting. It would have given more feeling to Anakin's turn. It would have added more complexity between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader. It would have also served the purpose of having QUi-Gon live and have more of a purpose in the film and also provide that missing Han-Solo element.
It would have also given Samuel Jackson the light-saber wielding role many clamored for.
Oh well. I did some google research and it seems that the whole Luke and Leia and Darth is their father was something Lucas came into AFTER Star Wars was released.
That's forgiveable since who knew it'd be such a hit. But going into this new trilogy I would have hoped he could have done something like the above scenario or something deeper than what he did.
But in the end Epsidoe III was much more similar in style to the original trilogy and it was the best I think that could be done given the corner Episdoes 1 and 2 box you into.
What do you think about this alternate new trilogy twist? Any reason it wouldn't have worked or been better?
I don't care what the annotated screenplays say, when Empire was being released Lucus was interviewed in Rolling Stone, (or maybe it was Starlog I forget) and he gave credit to Bracket for that little plot point, it was only after the fact that it became "always his idea from the very beginning".
Well, considering how the 1st draft which she only worked on does not have an "I am your father" scene (it cuts to a dream-like sequence with Vader tempting Luke to join the galaxy - very similar, minus the Father aspect). Or when nothing else has quoted Bracket as being the originator of the idea. Or how in various drafts of Star Wars from way back in '75 there's different permutations on Father / machine-man characters. Or how Darth Vader is kind of similar to "dark father" or whatever in some European language. Or about 9 billion other reasons, I'm pretty sure it was Lucas' idea.
But, hey, who am I to argue? You have a Starlog magazine from 1980.
To the person/people who stated the "Flub" that baby Luke had brown eyes, the only twin you seen with open eyes was Leia when Bail Organa brought her home to his wife. If you see the movie again, take notice.
Im still dwelling on the Emporers seeming compassion of staying by Anakin/Vaders side after he was burned up after telling the storm troopers to get the Medical droids. That still has me questioning whether Palpatines mentor triggered Anakins birth, or if it was Palpatine using his Masters secrets.
his lightsaber should have turned red right after he killed the younglings.
One thing that came to mind for me is that Alec Guinness was around 63 years old in the original Star Wars movie and pretty much looked that age. I can't imagine the character of Luke being over 20, which would make Obi Wan around 43 years old in episode III.
ObiWan was a young apprentice during Episode I and shouldn't have been more than 20 while Anakin was 10. This would make Anakin a little over 30 years old in Episode III.
To me, these numbers don't fit. Can anyone else figure this out?
Anyone see Lucus's summaries for Episodes VII - IX (if these are his. The same summaries are all over the net)?
Maybe, just maybe, Leia didn't develop an aptitude for the force until later, explaining why Vader couldn't sense the force in her & why Obi-wan said Luke was their only hope. Yoda, apperently though could sense the force in her, maybe due to his mastery of the force.
One thing that came to mind for me is that Alec Guinness was around 63 years old in the original Star Wars movie and pretty much looked that age. I can't imagine the character of Luke being over 20, which would make Obi Wan around 43 years old in episode III. ... To me, these numbers don't fit. Can anyone else figure this out?
Kenobi didn't stock up on skin moisturizers on Tattoine, so the twin suns prematurely aged him.
--R.J.
"My though is that they killed QUi-Gon too early and could have used him as the entertaining Han-Solo like character to carry you through three movies."
If Qui Gon had lived I think it's highly unlikely that Anakin would have turned to Palpatine for the father figure he needed.
A good alternatiev universe What If type story might have Qui Gon living and Palpatine turning to Plan B-- recruit Obi Wan.
Or maybe Plan 9.
// One thing that came to mind for me is that Alec Guinness was around 63 years old in the original Star Wars movie and pretty much looked that age. I can't imagine the character of Luke being over 20, which would make Obi Wan around 43 years old in episode III. //
Remember we're talking about beings from alien worlds, There's nothing that says Obi-Wan, (or anyone else for that matter) ages the exact same way we do.
// Well, considering how the 1st draft which she only worked on does not have an "I am your father" scene (it cuts to a dream-like sequence with Vader tempting Luke to join the galaxy - very similar, minus the Father aspect). Or when nothing else has quoted Bracket as being the originator of the idea. //
The annoted screenplays were authorized by Lucas after the myth machines were already in place. Lucas has gone out of his way to preserve his own "mythmaker" status, recently trying to surpress a showing of an original print of Star Wars that did not have the "Chaper 4 A New Hope" subtitle becuase he was maintaining that the subtitle was always there since he had always intended it to be a saga, (the subtitle wasn't always there, it was edited when the original was re-released after Empire, something Lucas denied for about a decade till someone finally and publicly called him on it). I hold suspect everything that's come out of the Lucas myth factory once he started making his own myth.
// Or how in various drafts of Star Wars from way back in '75 there's different permutations on Father / machine-man characters. //
Really, when the original film was released, before all the sequels, there were making of and art of star wars books out there. One of them had early script pages and concept art from Lucas's early ideas that did not include Luke, just a grizeled old space pirate and a princess. If the farhter/son aspect was so important to Star Wars from the very beginning how come the son was missing from Lucas's early concept notes and the paintings he commishened to help sell the film? How come he hired Allen Dean Foster to write a sequal where Vader was not Lukes farther and then, after deciding not to film that story let Foster turn it into a novel and leave the bit about Vader not being Lukes farther in there? If Lucas knew, even then, that Vader was Luke's father he could have just told Foster to change that bit, he didn't even have to tell him why, (after all Foster was just a hired employee). Why did Lucus give Roy Thomas and Marvel Comics a detailed list of things they could and couldn't do in the comics, (and according to Roy Thomas this list came personally form Lucas, not from people working from him), and not include "don't show Lukes Farther" in that list?
// Or how Darth Vader is kind of similar to "dark father" or whatever in some European language. //
Kind of simular?, is that like "kinda pregnat"?, "Sort of a virgin"?
// Or about 9 billion other reasons, //
And for every reason you can name I can bring up a reason, (and I've already brought up serveral) for why it looks Vader was not Lukes farther from the very begining.
// I'm pretty sure it was Lucas' idea. //
And you may be right, but that is not what Lucas was saying at the time Empire came out.
// But, hey, who am I to argue? You have a Starlog magazine from 1980. //
Lucas' story about how he came up with Star Wars has changed several times over the years. I'm not exactly sure why, what he says now, is somehow more factual then what he said back then.
"If Qui Gon had lived I think it's highly unlikely that Anakin would have turned to Palpatine for the father figure he needed.
A good alternatiev universe What If type story might have Qui Gon living and Palpatine turning to Plan B-- recruit Obi Wan."
That's true - but if they wrote QUi Gon to be a STERN father figure and hold the same stance as Mace Windu in not allowing Anakin to become a Master Jedi on the council it would provide the fuel for his rebellion against QUi Gon into the fold of Palpatine with his lies and deceit and promises (Padme and beating death).
Anakin turned against Obi easily it could've easily been done with QUi Gon with the right scripting.
Just my thoughts on a cool What If.
Yes, "Darth Vader" does sound like the Dutch for "dark father".
On the other hand, "Amidala" sounds like the Portugese for "tonsil".
"Luke" can be linked to either "Lucas" (making him a Mary Sue of the first water) or the Biblical physician and writer.
Really, all sorts of sonic linkages can be found when you look for them. Kind of reminds me of the sequence in Philip Jose Farmer's "Rider of the Purple Wage", when the sociologist is looking for the hidden meaning in the chosen name of the Young Radicals, and eventually winds up with "radicle", meaning "radish", and "radish" being sometimes used as a term for a country bumpkin; thus, the Young Radicals were declaring their semiotic innocence...
If the farhter/son aspect was so important to Star Wars from the very beginning how come the son was missing from Lucas's early concept notes and the paintings he commishened to help sell the film? Yadda yadda yadda, I'm so smart I type alot of stuff that makes eyes glaze over and I use // too.
2 things:
#1 - http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/scripts/thestarwars_rough_draft.htm -- opening pages = Father & Son dynamic & later on you get the cyborg father dude. Been awhile since I read it, but its in there.
#2 - please get over yourself and stop posting 500+ word diatrabes on how much George Lucas stinks.
Cheers.
// #2 - please get over yourself and stop posting 500+ word diatrabes on how much George Lucas stinks. //
Please point out where exactly I said "George Lucas stinks". I've said he's made his own myth, (which puts him in a class with, among others, Walt Disney, Stan Lee and Gene Roddenbery, good company to be in methinks), and that much of that mytholigy doesn't hold up under close scrutiny, but that's a far cry from "he stinks". My only problem with Lucas is the dismissing of contributions of others, (in this case Leigh Bracket). I have the same problem with Walt Disney, Stan Lee and Gene Roddenbury, and for the record I don't think any of those folks stink either.
Johnny Fuller: Regarding Obi-Wan's increased aging... desert living is rough? Not to mention he was a hermit on a backwater world? That's about all I've got.
I've been working through the original trilogy DVDs with my friends since seeing Ep III last week. We keep mock-seriously asking each other, "why do Jedi hate arms?" Seriously, it seems like Obi-Wan can't go into a bar without maiming someone. You'd think there'd be Jedi support programs for that kind of thing.
The DVD revisionism also becomes progressively more annoying... I've never appreciated owning an 'outdated' VHS copy of anything so much before, and in retrospect I'm somewhat grateful for the obsessive collector in me, demanding that I get every released version of the original trilogy. I can live with most of the changes/revisions, save for the Hayden Anakin at the end of 'Jedi', which still doesn't make sense to me. But the one which somehow rankles me the most his the re-dubbing of Boba Fett's lines with Temuera Morrison's voice. Nothing against Morrison, but I miss the raspy, soulless delivery of a line like "he's no good to me dead." Morrison's accent gives the character more, well, character.
I didn't particularly understand why Lucas felt the need to muck about with the dialogue during the 'Yes, my Master' scene from 'Empire,' either. I can understand having Ian McDiarmid's fearsome visage replace the Evil Glaring Monkey, but was the dialogue alteration (subtle as it was) really neccessary?
// #1 - http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/scripts/thestarwars_rough_draft.htm -- opening pages = Father & Son dynamic & later on you get the cyborg father dude. Been awhile since I read it, but its in there. //
Once again, I ask, why is something that's out there now, taken as more accurate and truthful then stuff that was out there then? If those scripts are legit, then were the script notes and concept art in released in various books back in 1977 frauds?
Darren:
"recently trying to surpress a showing of an original print of Star Wars that did not have the "Chaper 4 A New Hope" subtitle becuase he was maintaining that the subtitle was always there since he had always intended it to be a saga"
I think that had more to do with Lucas not wanting to show the original prints ever again, in favor of his Special Editions rather than supressing that particular info. In the DVD documentary it was shown the original opening scroll without the 'Episode IV'
So far everything you've said is correct, and the information is out there for anyone who wants to look. But so far there hasn't been any other source claiming that Brackett came up with the idea. It seems to me that that is pretty big hole in Lucas' myth and I find it hard to believe there is no mention anywhere else.
I'm not claiming Lucas tought of it from the beggining, as all evidence points otherwise, BTW.
In the re-released trilogy - one of the original Star Wars tv spots is called Forbidden Romance and is all about Luke falling in love with Leia the first time he sees her etc . . . and from the spot alone it seems OBVIOUS Lucas had no intention of making them brother and sister.
Buuut - the trailer is called Forbidden Romance and the one kiss shared is a tiny peck.
Hmmmm. I don't think we'll ever know. But some of the stuff you are all talking about is addressed in the documentary and Lucas says he didn't originally have Darth Vader as the Father. He had them separate with a good father bad father theme and then they melded into one character for him.
The question is when did the melding occur. I believe it was AFTER he already made Star Wars and thought about what could he do to shake things up.
Star Wars could always have stood alone - it had a beginning middle and end. All the twists and turns, I believe, were added later.
I still wish Lucas would have thought more about the NEW trilogy and put more twists and turns. Like I said - Qui-Gon should have been the Mace WIndu role.
Liam Neeisan could have been in all 3 filling the Han Solo wise cracking role and become a sterner father figure to ANakin.
In the end the Emperor convinces ANakin that QUi-Gon is holding him back - jealous of him - his love with Padme etc and ANakin KILLS Qui-Gon.
Makes his fight with Obi Wan more dramatic AND leaves Samuel Jackson to go out in a blaze of glory in the Godfather-esque Jedi Btrayal scenes.
Seeing Jackson be one of the few Jedi to kick some clone ass would have been a sweet legacy!
Well, about Qui-Gon surviving the three movies.
First, I think Lucas wanted to have a duality in Episode I by having Obi-Wan watch his master die the same way Luke watches Obi-Wan die in Episode IV, the screeming: "noooooo" and all.
Second, If Qui-Gon lives he will be the one to train Anakin, no reason for obi-wan to train him and you would have a another continuity problem.
The watching the master die duality is a great point. But having Obi-Wan train ANakin with QUi-Gon alive could have easily been done.
You could simply have QUi-Gon be against Anakin being a Jedi or receiving training and he basically tells Obi-Wan "It's your pet project." That way he can watch it from an emotional distance. There could be a myriad of ways to write it in if one wants to. Lucas either decided against it or didn't think of it. I tend to think he wanted that duality you mention and didn't think of the positives of allowing Qui-Gon to live.
You could even have accomplished the ssame duality with allowing Qui-Gon to live. Obi-Wan could have seen Qui-Gon's death on a security monitor - much like he witnessed Anakin at the Jedi temple after having killed the younglings.
It's all possible. I'm not bashing Lucas here. I enjoy the mythology. It's just that with the new trilogy I would have treated Qui-Gon differently and in the end I think it would have been more cohesive and dramatic. Just my opinion. Still a fun flick, episode 3 was. WOw - I'm talking like Yoda - gotta stop that!
An interview with Gary Kurtz:
http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/376/376873p3.html
This will do nothing to solve the debate about Empire, but he does talk about Lucas's original intensions for Star Wars.
At one point he mentions that originally, when Lucas still planned on 9 parts total, the series was going to climax in episode IX with a big battle with the Emperor. Jedi was suppose to conclude with Han being killed, Leia going on to become queen, and Luke being left by himself. There was no 2nd death star, nor were there ewoks.
An interesting read.
..."You could simply have QUi-Gon be against Anakin being a Jedi or receiving training and he basically tells Obi-Wan "It's your pet project."...
wouldn't work as it was qui-Gon's insistance that anakin be trained as a jedi, to the point where he said obi-wan was ready to be on his own. obi-wan only took anakin as padawan after qui-gon died because it's what qui-gon wanted.
joe v.
Agreed - but it's all possible - pen being mightier than the lightsaber and all.
YOu could have QUi-Gon being sent on important missions and Anakin not being allowed to go b/c of his age and QUi Gon insisting that Obi-Wan train him.
There could be a million ways to shift the training to Obi-Wan. Also - what you're forgetting is that my What If? was an alternate writing of the new trilogy. That means it wouldn't be bound by what QUi-Gon DID in the first prequel. YOu wouldn't have him do that and insist on training ANakin then.
The point would be to keep QUi-Gon on through the three prequels as the Han Solo type of character and then have Anakin kill him in the end. It would be more dramatic having Anakin kill Obi-Wan's Master.
If you were going to do it this way you'd write the first prequel differently obviously.
Just a thought.
One thing that came to mind for me is that Alec Guinness was around 63 years old in the original Star Wars movie and pretty much looked that age. I can't imagine the character of Luke being over 20, which would make Obi Wan around 43 years old in episode III.
ObiWan was a young apprentice during Episode I and shouldn't have been more than 20 while Anakin was 10. This would make Anakin a little over 30 years old in Episode III.
I believe it was the TPM novelization that established Obi-Wan as 25 in Episode I, with multiple sources putting Anakin at 9 (and, while we're at it, Padme at 14). Episode II is set 10 years later, putting Obi-Wan at 35 and Anakin at 19 (and Padme at 24). Flash forward another three years for Episode III, with Kenobi at 38, Skywalker at 22, and Amidala at 27.
The sticky situation comes in with the time difference between Episodes III and IV. The novelization of IV puts Luke at 21, but other sources around the time of Star Wars and Empire have Leia a few years younger than Luke (around 18 at the time of ANH). But, the most recent "official" timeline that I'm aware of - the one published in Star Wars - The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force lists the events of ANH as 19 years after Episode III, which would put Obi-Wan at 57, with Anakin/Vader at 41.
I can imagine Lucas having the seeds of the backstory always dancing tantalizingly in the back of his head, but the one thing that no one has touched on (possibly because it's so obvious and rather than being an insightful student of writing I'm actually thick as a whale omelet) in the original sotry the hero's name is Luke.
The writer's name is...Lucas.
See the connection?
Or, seriously, has that always been obvious and I really am just brain damaged?
BTW, anybody know where Ben came from in terms of Obi Wan? That was the one question that I couldn't answer after III.
Whew... Go out of town for a few days and look what happens. After skimming the last 90 or so messages, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned one little bit of dialogue in ANH. (pardon any potential misquotes)
BERU:"Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him."
OWEN:"That's what I'm afraid of."
Now, I know an argument can be made that he's just afraid Luke is going to "follow old Obi-Wan off on some damn idealistic crusade," etc... But it's always stuck out to me, in retrospect, that they KNOW.
Also, as to the question of why they hid Luke with family. It's possible that they're banking on Vader wanting to sever ties with Anakin's life, while still not being so capricious as to just kill off everyone from his former life. Plus, even Anakin never wanted to return to Tatooine, making it the one place in the galaxy they don't run too much of a risk of him running across his offspring. Mind you, until ANH, Vader has no reason to believe that his offspring survived. Palpatine certainly wasn't going to tell him, even if he knew, which is likely, given they eyes and ears he has everywhere.
I read an interesting interview recently which made the interesting point that after becoming "more machine than man," Vader is much weaker in the force than he could have been, and therefore a disappointment to Palpatine. Luke ends up being the one he really wants. It makes sense that the Emperor would bide his time, making sure Luke is going to be as powerful as he predicts, then use Vader to reel Luke in, betraying Vader much as he did Tyrannus.
-Rex Hondo-
Good points. Gotta watch ANH again. After watching the documentary on the trilogy set I really don't think Lucas is hiding anything or trying to create a myth about the STar Wars creation as others have said.
He admits the story changed many times and that he didn't know that Luke & Leia would be Vader's kids in the early drafts and it changed back and forth many times.
Did he know that Luke would be the son of Vader though? YOu make some good points that they did know.
But again - Owen could simply be referring to becoming a Jedi and getting wiped out like they did in Episode III.
I think one thing is for sure though - Lucas had no idea Luke & Leia would become siblings when he wrote Star Wars. He talks about how he wanted them to be twins in early drafts but the writing and trailer spots talk about romance and show the kisses and its downright uncomroftable! LOL
I read an interesting interview recently which made the interesting point that after becoming "more machine than man," Vader is much weaker in the force than he could have been, and therefore a disappointment to Palpatine. Luke ends up being the one he really wants. It makes sense that the Emperor would bide his time, making sure Luke is going to be as powerful as he predicts, then use Vader to reel Luke in, betraying Vader much as he did Tyrannus.
This is an interesting notion that makes me think of the dialog between Vader and the Emperor in RETURN OF THE JEDI about what to do about Luke. I'm trying to remember it exactly, but if I recall correctly, the Emperor says something about how Luke must not become a Jedi and seems to want him killed. It's Vader that suggests that Luke could be turned to the Dark Side.
What now strikes me as interesting about this is that since we now know that there's a rule about only being two Sith, if Vader's talking about making Luke a true Sith apprentice (which, admittedly, he might not...) then isn't that tantamount to saying to the Emperor "One of us should be eliminated to make room for a new apprentice" or even "I'm done. Have Luke kill me and make him your new apprentice." ?
So I guess we now have an extra layer of depth to that whole ROTJ sequence.
Heck, it's even possible that, given how good Palpatine is at reading people and pushing their buttons, he suggests killing Luke in order to get just that reaction from Vader, or as a test to see if there's some vestige of Anakin left that wants to keep his son alive.
-Rex Hondo-
It's amazing what you've said! It mirrors what I've been saying to friends the last few days!
Al
Just thinking here, but maybe the Sith always travel in pairs but there are lots of pairs out there. Decentralized and stuff like that, y'know?
Just thinking here, but maybe the Sith always travel in pairs but there are lots of pairs out there. Decentralized and stuff like that, y'know?
Yeah, there's a little bit of ambiguity in the movies themselves as to whether or not the "only 2 Sith" thing means that Sith work in pairs, so the existence of one (like Darth Maul) implied the existence of another; or if it means that there are only 2 Sith, total, in the galaxy at any given time.
I believe some stories in other media (comics or novels) have established the latter--that by the time of the movies, the rule is that there are only 2 Sith at all at any given time (although that wasn't always the case.) One may or may not choose to take that as canon, but in any case, as presented in the movies, it's a little ambiguous/confusing.
Vader never wanted to join the emperor. He wanted to learn what he could from him and kill him and become emperor himself. He said this to Padme in ROTS. Palpatine knew this, he forsaw it (it's that a word?). He also knew what would happen to Vader in his duel with Obi-Wan, he knew that after the fight against Obi-Wan Vader would be less powerful and unable to betray him.
In ESB Vader wants Luke to join him and defeat the emperor together so they can rule. The emperor knew this also. Palpatine wanted Luke for himself. In ROTS Palpatine wanted Luke to kill Vader. Vader has served its purpose and was likely to betray him so he wanted a new apprentice. Luke would be easier to control because his training was not formal and Palpatine would teach him just enough to be useful but not enough to become a threat.
O well, we all know how that turn out for him. Vader slam-dunk him down a shaft.
Well, Luke and Anakin's whining matches up with this exchange:
"He's just like his father."
"That's what I'm afraid of!"
your so right PAD....im surprised im not your clone...same thought patterns... great minds think alike...good thing we don't!
Perhaps the surname "Skywalker" is so common in the galaxy that there was no need to give Luke another name.
Perhaps Obi Wan knows for sure that Vader would never return to Tatooine, after the life he had led there and the death of her mother.
Perhaps after Episode III and the Imperial propaganda thousands of kids were named "Skywalker" in the galaxy, as any other Elvis.
//Yoda's pronouncements of Jedi philosophy are reminiscent of Buddhism--suffering is caused by desire; to be free of suffering, one must be free of desire etc.--and that seems to have caught on with more than a few people..//
This reminds me of a book I once read about the Samurai. It refered to the training of the legendary samurai Minamoto no Yoshitsune by Tengu, or tiny dwarves of the forest. Yoshitsune's Father and brother had been killed in the Heiji Rebellion, and he was exiled, but was secretly trained by the Tengu leader, Sojobo. Sojobo trains him to use his perceptions in a supernatural way, to "Reach out with his feelings." (sound familar?) Later, he picked up a friend who was a skeptic, and they overthrew an Evil Empire together. The author drew the comparison between Star Wars, with Yoshitsune as Luke, and the Tengu as Yoda and or/Obi-wan. The training methods were similar, with Yoshitsune having the Tengu suddenly attack from behind with no warning. Picture Luke fighting the remote. Also, the Tengu, like the Jedi, hsve been known to mess in politics, and like to kidnap and train children. That, plus the Bhuddist/shinto overtones of the Force, and the Ninja, clan/sucession based secret styles of the Sith, and the swordfighting styles(espcially Episodes I-III) all tie in nicely. Maybe someone else knows how influenced by Japan/Bhuddism Lucas was.
For more on the simlarities between The Force and Buddhism - check out a new book called "The Dharma of Star Wars"
Fun quick read comparing the philosphy with what Lucas created in The Force.
Matthew Berg? Is this the Matt Berg of Lawton, Oklahoma?
If that is Matt, it's David, we were best friends a long time ago. Hit me up sometime at thephenomena11@gmail.com.
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