Basically, the last episode of "Star Trek" consists of a guy in a Starfleet outfit sitting around watching a rerun of "Star Trek," and even creating his own fanfic by writing himself into the story and making himself a wise, wonderfully intelligent individual who all the crewmembers unburden themselves to.
Not exactly the way *I* would have gone for a last episode, although it can certainly be considered a final commentary on Trek fandom. Then again, my ideal episode would have involved Sam Beckett leaping out of the body of Jonathan Archer and to his next adventure, so...
My assumption is that there were various Trek personnel sitting in the cheap seats at the end. Anyone have a tally of who was there?
PAD
Posted by Peter David at May 15, 2005 01:27 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingI think the best part of that episode was seeing the Enterprise-D in all its CG glory. Kinda sad, really.
Ha ha ha...that would have been great to see Al appear and tell Sam that he had done it...and then watched him Leap.
Was the "only leap in his own lifetime" limitation removed during the last season of "Quantum Leap"? I didn't watch much of the last season. Heck even if it violates "QL" rules, it still would have been a better ending.
Overall impression: The episode was better than I expected it to be after hearing all the negative talk. Not a great episode and in fact one of the weakest for the season, but not as bad as I would expect.
Actually I thought that Frakes was attempting to act like Whopi Goldberg.
Giving the Trekkies the choice to believe that the entire Enterprise series was a holodeck fantasy was the only way to deal with all the continuity glitches.
Five series (ST, Animated Series, Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager) with no sight of the Enterprise among the collections of every ship ever named Enterprise, no mention of their historical "importance" (other than one mention of a "USS Archer"), no mention or sighting of most of the alien species they encountered, no Denobulans or Xindi, meetings with alien species before their stated first contacts, Spock not being the first human/Vulcan hybrid, no historical mention of Hoshi as inventor of the Universal Translator or the Xindi attack on Florida...
With all due respect to the many fine Star Trek novel authors (and keeping in mind whose house I'm making these comments in), dismissing "Enterprise" off as fiction is the only solution that works.
Giving the Trekkies the choice to believe that the entire Enterprise series was a holodeck fantasy was the only way to deal with all the continuity glitches.
Five series (ST, Animated Series, Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager) with no sight of the Enterprise among the collections of every ship ever named Enterprise, no mention of their historical "importance" (other than one mention of a "USS Archer"), no mention or sighting of most of the alien species they encountered, no Denobulans or Xindi, meetings with alien species before their stated first contacts, Spock not being the first human/Vulcan hybrid, no historical mention of Hoshi as inventor of the Universal Translator or the Xindi attack on Florida...
Sorry, but those are MINOR nitpicks. There were a whole lot more problems with characterization, storytelling and plotting...
This link mentions the people in the auditorium scene:
In the last season of Quantum Leap, Sam was able to leap into the body of an ancestor during the Civil War.
In theory, he should be able to leap into the body of a descendant with the same genetic pattern.
Sorry, but those are MINOR nitpicks. There were a whole lot more problems with characterization, storytelling and plotting...
Aren't all nitpicks minor?
Yeah, there were major problems. Those were annoying. I also found the little continuity glitches (which seemed more like they ignored continuity instead of forgot it) grating, and it made it hard to enjoy the series. In addition to the major problems.
Given all the above, is the final episode of Enterprise worth watching?
When Enterprise first came on I gave it a try for almost a full season. Then, after giving up on it, I went back for a few eps when the people behind the scenes were talking about having worked out the bugs, got a feel for the series, etc. Same bad show to me and a called it quits after a few eps. I watched it again for this season for the shows where Spiner came in for the two parter but didn't stay after that because I realized I liked watching him more then I liked watching the show. After that the only one I watched was the last show. I explain this to point out that I could be wrong here. But.....
What a slap in the face that thing must have been to the hardcore fans of the show. It's swan song gets upstaged to be Rikers sub plot in a ten year old NG story? I wasn't a Voyager fan by the end but still kinda enjoyed its last show. But this thing? Let us see...
They use a writer that ain't too loved for his work by the fans right now rather then the ones getting all the praise of late by the fans of the show and who could have turned out a better ending for sure, they give half of the show over to another show all together rather then spending the entire hour building the Enterprise cast a strong send off, they kill off a main, and popular, charecter in the dumbest manner I can remember in Trek (yes, even worse, if only barely, then Tasha'a to me,) they cheat the fans out of any emotion from that death by jumping the program back to Chef Riker for a cheese line filled chat with Trip and then they cheat Archer out of his moment by, again, shifting the point of the story to Riker. If I wanted to be nasty I would say it was because the writer was either too lazy or just plain couldn't come up with a really good speach for Archer to end out the show with. I won't be nasty though.
As a Trek fan in general and an only passing Enterprise watcher I was only mildly bothered by this slapdash send off. But if I was a huge fan, as I told my wife as soon as the words "end program" were spoken, I would be wanting the heads of the "creative team" behind that mess.
I really hope that they let Trek die for a long while and only bring it back again when the people who are going to be in charge of it know how to tell really good stories first, good Trek second and remember when Trek was fun (something that they seemed to work really hard at moving away from of late) third.
Dear Paramount,
Please hire JMS to do the next Star Trek.
Sincerely,
The Fans
Dear Paramount,
Please hire JMS to do the next Star Trek.
Sincerely,
The Fans
Dear Paramount,
Go right ahead, if the intent is to further erode the fan base. There's a reason I could never make it through an entire episode of Babylon 5.
Sincerely,
An Individual Fan With Individual Tastes
:-)
Dear Paramount,
Please ignore those last two letters. We were drunk on tequila.
Sincerely,
Someone very tipsy
It seems apparent that there is an ongoing problem with current Viacom management with regard to a deep contempt for the fans. The cancellation was rubbed in people's faces with the article on StarTrek.com about the sets being taken down and lots of pictures of the now-empty sound stages ("See? They're gone! Neener, neener!") , yet the list price for a season's DVDs are about double that of almost any other t.v. series', and we are constantly urged to spend lots of money for overpriced, licensed tchockes.
(There's also a persistent rumor that Les Moonves made the cancellation decision in the middle of the second season, wanting to leave it on just long enough to get a sufficient number of episodes for a syndication package, but no longer.)
Certainly many of the underlying messages of Star Trek -- the need for further peaceful exploration of space, the desire to interact peacefully with "alien" cultures, the opposition to empire-building, the need to question orders from above -- go counter to the current political climate, which I'd bet credit to navy beans had to do with the cancellation as well. (Along with also mocking the opening credits montage and theme music -- both Viacom and the government are "holding us down" quite well these days.)
I could go on, but this is Peter's blog, not mine -- I have a long article in mind eventually elaborating on all this, including citations to back up my hypothesis.
What is it with people thinking the last ep meant the whole series was a holodeck sim? It didn't. Just that one ep was. And just as we were expected to believe on next gen (and the others), the holodeck program comes pretty darn close to the truth. Though it is able to extrapolate from any changes made by the REAL person in it (like the conversation between t'Pal and tucker about chef), it is still basing the actions on actual files for those crew. Was it insulting to think about the final ep of the show being devoted to a next gen subplot? yes and no. Yes because it did take away from letting all the characters have a fully developed farewell. but hell, next gen screwed up when they said Q had always had a thing for picard when the first 2-3 seasons he had a hard-on for riker. And no cause it did just what another poster here stated: they was never any previous mention of this crew or ship in any other show to give them any "historical" significance. Riker doiing his soul-searching by getting advice from the holodeck was in character and showed the importance of the crew and that moment. plus, I like riker. always have. I got a tad pissed and stopped watching next gen while it was on, instead taping it, when it became picard heavy. yawn. Riker's was ALWAYS the story I wanted to follow so this was a pleasant bit of story for me. And the last season and the last seveal eps in particular showed more character development for the other crew members than any other time in enterprise's run. And sorry, but I thought that was a nice death for tucker. He was annoying and I actually started to like him BECAUSE of his death. but then, unlike most of sci-fi fandom, I dont get pissy when a character is annoying (jar jar). People come in all varieties and the idea that everyone on a show has to be likeable is what is wrong with most shows in my opinion. Even outside of sci-fi.
And as for ending the show with a holodeck ep, well it allowed them to jump the five years in a 'realistic' manner and tell the tale they WANTED to tell. The formation of the federation. Sheesh.. PAD ended his first run on hulk with a story pretty much saying what he WOULD'VE done had he remained. I liked his hulk but for non hulk fans who I showed it to (since I thought it was well written), they wondered why I liked it since it was just a "here's what happened" tale.
And about the leaving the speech before he said it... it only bothered me for second. Unlike the finding forester movie where it felt like it was building towards that speech, this one didnt. And it was BECAUSE the ep was about riker. I thought Troi simply saying "I had to learn this speech" was enough to give weight to it. Seeing it would've detracted from it. The real ending of the show was the hug between archer and t'pal. it was two people who had grown close as friends mourning the death of a mutual loved one. and since the ep was about responsibility, archer hugging her struck me as him accepting THAT responsibility before heading out to give a speech where he had planned to avoid doing just that: taking responsibility for the GOOD he had done. I like to think he actually took credit where it was due in the speech. And because it wasn't shown, I CAN do just that. And the ending "Space, the final frontier" part was a nice touch.
The show was reaching it's prime and was killed. Those who hold too strongly to continuity were missing out on some nice dramatic sci-fi. Sure, it bothered me some of the changes but I forgave that when the ep was good. And that was more often than not. I am glad for the show cause it meant Voyager wasn't the end. I would've preferred them to leap further into the future for a show but I still enjoyed this one.
Oh, and as for QL... sure it would've been funny but sam couldnt leap into the future. He could only leap within his own lifetime except for that one ep where he went to his great great grandpappy or some such silliness. But still, it was in the PAST. the one thing I would've liked was to see him leap into someone from that day. where a guy across the country is swapped out with sam so they had NO info on what to change. that and I always expected the show to end with sam leaping into himself the day of his first leap to explain why he did it since they never DID give a reason beyond losing funding. But it seemed odd for a man who was essentially a careful worry wart to do.
In my own opinion, of course.
Anywho, I will miss enterprise on my friday night...well, sunday afternoon. We dont actually have a upn station so the shows air starting at 11pm on our fox station. great for taping but sucks when you want to watch it.
With one big exception I liked the last episode. I think after the cancellation, letting the story continue in bits and pieces in a holodeck program with comments was the best idea to finish it at least somewhat.
The execution of the idea is a different matter but it is also be an advantage because it will be only a matter of time until there is an Enterprise Relaunch book series. That the looks of the characters haven`t changed, including age, hairdo and rank insignias, shows me that the program was incomplete and definitely not an accurate representation of these past few years covered in the last episode. (No, I don`t belong to the fans who come to the conclusion that the whole story was nothing else but fiction)
I see the last episode as an attempt by Riker to use historical datas as an inspiration to find a solution for his dilemma concerning "The Pegasus". It was not a detailed study of what happened to these people during that time, meaning their careers and private lives.
My opinion is, the book series will be able to fill in the blanks very nicely and has a lot of freedom here. I am glad about that.
Unfortunately the death of a certain main character is part of "canon" but even that can be made more acceptable to me, keeping in mind a certain conversation at the end of the previous episode. Well, at least I can hope! My husband was right when he told me, who said that it didn`t happen?
I regret it very much that Enterprise ended but at least it ended at its best. It makes me mad somehow that a series like Voyager, a series that is full of annoying contradictions, plots and uneven character developments, lasted seven years but that Enterprise was cut short. It wasn`t perfect but definitely better than Voyager! My husband and me, we will both miss it.
Isn't it about time we learned more about Pike? Maybe an animated series focusing on Pike's crew?
Zzzz.. Sknknknk! Huh? Wha-? It's over?
Damn. I fell asleep a few eps after DS9 went off the air. Man, do I have one bad case of morning breath.
OK, so when's SPACE:1999 coming back? (I'm kidding!)
*clears my throat to do my best Jon Stewart*
"Suuuuuuuuuucks!"
Yeah, Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis look EXACTLY the way they did ten years ago. I like Manny Coto's work, as did the actors he worked with on Showtime (since they appeared this last season). Nevertheless, I did not appreciate the whimper the series left with. I didn't like the last movie. And I'll STILL be desperate enough for good visual Sci-Fi to give whatever they come up with next a shot.
Here's to Serenity.
**Dear Paramount,
Please hire JMS to do the next Star Trek.
Sincerely,
The Fans**
Speaking as a fan of both Trek AND Babylon 5... um, no.
I'll give the next series more of a chance if Berman and Braga have stepped away from the franchise.
I was thoroughly disappointed in the finale after being rather enthused for the run of season 4. This was toted as a "valentine" for the fans. More like a slap in the face.
Sirtis and Frakes have always been two of my favorites but trying to believe the two actors were the same age as they were during the Pegasus episode was futile. The entire tone of the show was different that the originial TNG epiosde.
When it first aired, Riker was tense, nervous and torn - even when he was alone with Deanna. Now suddenly he's releaxed enough to be on a holodeck, smiling and sharing trivia with Troi and kissing T'Pol on the cheek?
Nah...
I just didn't find it credible or believable.
My hope is Berman and Braga never have control of another trek series or movie.
JMS fans should refer to: http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17286
and then:
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17287
Bsaically, he wanted to, but without any firm commitment about when TREK would be back, he had to accept another offer.
This final Star Trek series is the only one in which I did not watch even one episode. As a matter of fact, I never even glimpsed an episode while channel surfing. To be honest, I probably would have watched some of the series if the fact that it was even out there was on my radar screen. But I don't remember much of anything about it, publicity-wise. What gives? And did I miss much?
Bsaically, [JMS] wanted to, but without any firm commitment about when TREK would be back, he had to accept another offer.
*whew*
Dodged that photon torpedo.
I mean, just yesterday, I had the comic store remove Fantastic Four from my pull list. Not sure what I would've done if the next Trek series were run by him. Aside from not watch, that is. :-/
To paraphrase the venerable television personality Butt-head, "This series finale sucked more than anything has ever sucked before."
First, let's end the series by making it a simulation in A PREVIOUS SERIES. Not only are we watching computerized simulations of the characters people presumably like (if they're watching the series), their actions are used to help resolve an episode of the original show ("Pegasus") that most fans already know the ending to.
Next, it's the Holodeck, arguably the most hated creation in the Trek universe. Were Trip's final moments recorded for use in some computer program years later? How about his feelings towards T'Pol?
They brought Jeffrey Combs back -- and wasted him! His clever plan was to have his allies at gunpoint, then use a trick diamond? Why not just teleport out his daughter? Or have someone chuck those stun grenades they've used frequently on the show? (Not to mention that six years had passed before the rescue, so presumably they had been refined since then.)
Perhaps the course of true love never did run smooth, but we have T'Pol and Trip losing "their" baby (it may have been a cloned hybrid, but everyone sure got emotional about it) and then Trip dies before they can really reconcile? Terrific.
And why did Trip become a suicide bomber? He's an engineer in Starfleet, been in countless dangerous situations, and the only plan he can come up with is to blow up the chunk of the ship he happens to be in? For that matter, what happened to security, that they couldn't detect the incoming ship or have anyone around to intercept the intruders?
And Archer's speech in the penultimate episode would have worked great as his address to the Federation. Instead, we get to wait as he writes, it, we get to hear how great it was -- Troi memorized it, for chrissakes -- but no actual, you know, speech.
ENTERPRISE had its ups and downs -- sometimes it had a great sense of adventure, the last season was "24" in space -- but this was an absolutely awful way for the show to end. Rest in pieces.
OK,
PAD,
without cutting off anybodies hand....
Paramount whisks you away in a black limo to some underground complex with millions of armed guards and one of those really cool vending machines like they have in hospitals that have chicken salad sandwitches and big convience store burritoes....
and they set you at a smith corona at a little table and give you a million dollars in a briefcase and say...
We screwed up...save the franchise...
what is your first move?
Brief summary...
Star Trek--always will be the best; even with some VERY lame episodes, the character interaction of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are what we watch for
TNG--1st season was TERRIBLE; 2nd season wasn't much better; 3rd and 4th were fantastic; 5th seemed to be running out of ideas; 6th was boring; and 7th season should never have been greenlighted
DS9--1st and 2nd seasons were a refreshing change; we now had a religious/political drama set in the Star Trek universe. And then Paramount decided to screw it up and try to turn it into TNG; downhill fast after that
Voyager--bad from beginning to end; not the story--but the characters and acting; never a believable character or relationship
Enterprise--1st and 2nd seasons were very enjoyable; a MUCH better start than TNG. The characters seemed real; relationships grew and were believable; stories were interesting. 3rd season should never have happened. It killed the show. 4th season was a gift. It stands up there with the two seasons of TNG and the two from DS9 as the great Star Trek seasons to watch.
Then came the finale. The last three shows have been given a two-hour finale. Enterprise gets one-hour. The last three shows ended on episodes about the characters from that show. Enterprise gets ripped off by losing half its time to TNG. Trip's death was meaningful and appropriately handled in the scene, but the emotional impact was removed by mentioning earlier that he didn't return and giving him one more scene out of order with the "chef". "One more scene" can be handled well. Look at Doyle's death on Angel, and his final scene. Brilliant. Not a dry eye in the room. Trip's death--not much emotion from either us or the other characters mere minutes later in the episode (three days their time).
The cancellation was a travesty. The final episode was a travesty. But the show, was very, very good.
It has a well deserved place of honor in Trek-lore.
Jon-Paul
ps--whatever else was in his speech, the words quoted by the three captains were a part of it. No doubt whatsoever in my mind. It's just another travesty that Archer didn't get to say the whole passage as the show ended.
Haven't seen the episode yet. "Enterprise" is the show I gave up the earliest on - after being burned with thinking the last seven or so episodes of "Voyager" would actually be interesting.
But looking back on it with fresh eyes while watching a Season One Box Set to review for our "Trek" package this past weekend, I realized I had missed some episodes with cool concepts and actors who looked like they wanted to have fun. (Anyone interested in my full review can check out www.phillynews.com. It came out Friday, May 13).
The problems with Trek lately are quite simple:
1.) Berman and Braga
2.) It's the writing stupid. It's the writing, stupid. It's the writing, stupid! IT'S THE WRITING, STUPID!!!!!!!!
OH,AND COUNT ME AS ONE OF THOSE WHO FEEL JMS WOULD BE PERFECT TO REVIVE THE FRANCHISE!!!
*Looks incredulously at Jon-Paul's casual dismissal of DS9 and 3rd season Enterprise*
Granted, I'm one of the first to admit that people have different tastes, and that's fine, but I fail to see how anyone can think they tried to turn DS9 into TNG. DS9 had lasting character development and strong long-term story arcs. TNG had the status quo neatly restored by the end of each episode. Worf, at the end of one episode, has had his back broken and is in physical therapy. Next ep rolls around and he's doing somersaults. A warp 5 "speed limit" is established, but they get "special dispensation" to ignore it a couple of times, then it's simply forgotten. Not a single character in DS9 ended up in the same place where they started, even secondary or minor characters, with the possible exception of Morn.
But I digress. We were talking about how bad the Enterprise "finale" blew, but I've already said my piece in the "Wotta Card" thread except for one thing that still bugs me, Trip's death, and not necessarily for the reasons some people might think. Arguably one of the best continuing subplots of the last two seasons was the Trip/T'Pol relationship. By jumping forward, saying that they broke up and whacking the guy, they pretty much give a big ol' "frell you," to anyone who would have wanted to explore that relationship further, in novel form or otherwise.
Also, I just had a couple of random questions/comments. It could easily be said that the reason you never see a model of the NX-1 on Enterprises D or E is that they have models only of the NCC-1701s. I don't think they have the aircraft carrier, but I may be wrong.
Also, I don't recall ever hearing or reading anything official that said Spock was the first Vulcan/Human hybrid. If somebody could point me to an official source...?
I know the question wasn't aimed at me, but to "save the franchise," anybody smart would probably just do without TV or movies for a decade or more and focus on the books, maybe even scaling back a bit on those as well, so the "expanded universe" titles (to crib a SW term) will be more prominent.
-Rex Hondo-
For the previous poster asking about Peter's idea for a Star Trek series, I would recommend a book series called New Frontier.
Regarding the final episode of Enterprise, I have to say I was hugely disappointed, even with the very low expectations brought about by a couple of dozen really bad Berman/Braga scripts. What's the point of bringing in Manny Coto and some really good writers like Mike Sussman and Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, let them turn the final season around a bit only to throw it all out in favor of a gimmicky Berman/Braga script? I think there was a good idea buried in there somewhere, but what is the point of doing a final episode and making everybody a supporting character? I don't have a problem with Trip's death (c'mon, the show is over, so who honestly cares?) but why not milk it for the emotional impact? And having him 'return' a scene later basically robbed the episode of that impact. Really, am I the only one who felt this episode was an anti-climax?
By the way, I don't agree with everybody who's been blaming Braga for some of the lame stories of the last several seasons. I think Braga has done some wonderful off-the-wall stuff in the past; just look at some of his early TNG episodes, or some of his collaborations with Ron Moore. Frankly, I think it's Berman's toxic influence on Star Trek, that continued to worsen through the end of Voyager, into the last couple of Star Trek films and finally into Enterprise. That's why Trek has to be rested for a while: not because there's anything wrong with the concept, but because it will give Rick Berman a chance to go off and do something else, so Trek can be brought back in a different form, with a very different guiding influence.
And at the risk of continuing to throw lighter fluid on the you-got-chocolate-on-my-peanut-butter Star Trek versus Babylon 5 debate, personally I think Joe Straczynski would be a wonderful choice to oversee a new Star Trek series. My only caveat though, let him create an overall story arc for the series and write some of the key arc episodes. I think the fifth season of B5 is a good example of a writer who shouldn't have been allowed to write 22- sorry, 21- solo episodes because of the obvious burn-out factor involved. Instead, bring in some of the great writers who worked on the first two seasons of B5: Dorothy Fontana, David Gerrold (you Trek fans got a problem with that?) and indeed, the host of this website as well. Give Harlan Ellison a year's notice to write an episode. Give a couple of up-and-coming SF writers a shot at a story; hell, look at the people who worked on the original series. And suddenly the idea of a JMS-driven series is looking pretty damn appealing. Personally, I'd love to see the idea that he pitched to Paramount with Bryce Zabel, but we would have to wait for Paramount execs to pull their collective head out of their collective ass.
Well, actually, I think Berman DID have something interesting to say with Trek.
The problem was that what he had to say would comfortably take up about five years and that he stayed on a decade too long....
And some names I'd add for writing or producing would be Ira Steven Behr, Peter Allen Fields, Ron Moore, Naren Shankar and RObert Wolfe to name a few....
Wow so many mixed opinions.
I would vote for a star trek show based on a diplomatic corp. A show where its a small starship with a captain, an ambasador, an aide a security chief as the major characters. Lets spend 5 episodes on Andor putting out a diplomatic crisis and then shoot over to Trill or some other world. Ambasadors on Trek have almost always been protrayed as useless or part of the problem. Having worked for the UN I thought it was time for our guys to shine.
Or maybe its time for Trek Academy, but with any show what I always felt was lacking was the good acting, humanity and excellent writing. Farscape blew me away, Babylon 5 got me excited about politics, Battlestar Gallactica keeps me at the edge of my seat.
With Trek we spent most of the time watching them rip themselves off by borrowing heavily from previous series stories, not be able to handle an adult realtionship, Riker & Troi, Picard and Crusher, Seven of Nine and the rest of the male crew.
The only trek show that really excited me was DS9, the characters had conflict, change, minor characters were given huge story arcs, people fell in love and died. Real emotions came out.
TNG was safe, nothing had changed from season 1 through season 7, everyone was the same. Voyager had some changed, but a sucky first 4 years really hurt it. Bad alien make up and plots lifted from TNG didnt help.
Enterprise was boring until the final episode in my eyes.
Lets expect more from Trek, more excitement, character development and more sex.
Is this the first time Peter David has posted on Trek? With the "death" of the series franchise can he now speak his mind?
Not to be too much of a nut but while everyone is griping about Berman and Braga, has anyone given thought to the fact that Star Trek's biggest problem may not be any individual but the fact that it is part of a mutli-media conglomerate where every decision is made by committee?
I see nothing wrong another series sooner rather than later but here's the thing. Come up with a premise and stick to it! "Enterprise" came out of the gate great because it showed you how you got where you are. The fear of the transporter, the way technology didn't always work perfectly...those were great charms. But then all of the sudden everyone's beaming and the communicators always work.
And if you want a good five-year story like B5, go ask Robert Hewitt Wolfe about his attempts to do it at DS9 and Andromeda. From what I understand, Majel Barrett didn't want a big arc and that's why those didn't have them.
Oh and just my opinion but I hated last year. It was more boring than anything else in Enterprise.
Michael J Norton
Chris wrote: "Is this the first time Peter David has posted on Trek? With the "death" of the series franchise can he now speak his mind?"
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that not only is the franchise never going to die, it's probably not even completely dead for TV. It's just a sleeping giant -- like Fin Fang Foom was for about 30 years or so.
**Dear Paramount,
Please hire JMS to do the next Star Trek.
Sincerely,
The Fans**
After reading the last year's worth of Amazing Spider-Man, I'd rather they didn't.
Gang,
I need a little help here with something I saw in the last two episodes. Enterprise, Mars, comet in one shot. When I first saw the shot, I screamed bull****, but now I'm not so sure.
Who's the resident physics whiz here?
Mike
The only good explanation I have seen was in William Shatner’s Star Trek novels. One of the books said that Enterprise was a part of the Mirror Universe that started with the events in First Contact. Then they blew that all to hell with "In a Mirror, Darkly: Part 1" Episode: #4.18 - 22 April 2005. It was almost a good episode. Waiting to see how it tide in with the rest of the show was good suspense, finding out that it didn’t made it a waste of time. Ruining a good explanation and having a let down ending takes talent.
What will they come up with next?
What is nice to see is a writer takes the far fetched and explains it so it works.
PAD can do it.
Shatner can do it. Ok so it is probably Garfield & Judith Reeves-Stevens even though they were writers for Terra Prime, but maybe Spock was the first hybrid to survive. And Elizabeth was not an offspring but a cross-clone or some techno-babble like that.
Regarding the question as to whether Spock was the first Human/Vulcan hybrid: these lines are quotes from the "Inside Star Trek" album, written by Gene Roddenberry, and originally released in 1976. The track is called, "Sarek's Son, Spock" and features Roddenberry interviewing Mark Lenard in character as Sarek. The two are talking about Sarek mating with Amanda.
GR: "And Spock was the result, the first Human/Vulcan mixture."
Sarek: "Not the first. But the first to survive."
Sarek then goes on to describe the details behind how the fetus Spock was treated in (artifical) utero in order to give him the best chance for survival, including how Vulcan scientists performed, "over a hundred subtle changes, which we hoped would sustain life."
I think that qualifies as a definitive answer to the question, and also shows that baby Elizabeth didn't violate Roddenberry's concept.
While I have nothing wrong with Shatner, personally, his Trek novels are essentially literary masturbation, exercises in seeing how Kirk can single-handedly save the universe this time, while pausing from time to time to show how inept Picard and his crew are. It's been a while, but I think he pretty much lost me when Kirk threw a switch and destroyed the Borg homeworld.
As for "Why isn't the NX-1 ever mentioned in the other shows?" questions, how's this for an explanation... it's a freakin' prequel that didn't exist when those other shows were made. They also don't mention the aircraft carrier or space shuttle. The number of times Kirk's Enterprises are mentioned can practically be counted on one hand, the B is NEVER mentioned on TV, and the C only because it was pivotal to the plot of one episode. Does anybody HONESTLY think that Picard or Sisko or anybody should pause at least once every few episodes and ponder, "What would Archer or Kirk do?" Feh...
-Rex Hondo-
Whoops, forgot. Howard, thanks for the info. I don't know if it qualifies as "official" canon, but it's good enough for me.
-Rex Hondo-
Wanna have a laugh? check out some of the people losing thier minds over TATV on Trekweb. I like the dude who is underlining and bolding his points, making sure that the screaming he's doing at the top of his lungs about how much Enterprise sucks is heard.
Squeeee (nice name) said the Mirror episodes didn't tie in to Enterprise continuity at all. That was my first impression, until the following episode.
Mirror Hoshi and Archer read the data base reports of what their counterparts accomplished and it is stated that Archer was a hero and helped found the Federation and that Hoshi Sato invented the Universal Translator.
The following episode was set further ahead in time than the rest of the series, and it was mentioned that Hoshi had invented the Universal Translator.
Thus, information revealed in the mirror universe episode was established as canon and incorporated into the mythos.
Oh, and I do realize only the final episode was a holodeck recreation drawn from historical records.
It's just that I'd rather believe all of Enterprise and all of Voyager were actually programs from Quark's Holo-Suites. That explains Seven-of-Nine and T'Pol, too.
People keep complaining the Enterprise finale was a Next Gen episode. Well, it wasn't JUST the Enterprise finale, it was the conclusion of eighteen consecutive years of Star Trek on television, since Next Gen, DS0, Voyage and Enterprise all overlapped or abutted.
Counting Star Trek and the animated series and the ten movies, that was 735 episodes of Star Trek. Not all great, but still, a pretty good, long lived and prosperous run
Heck, the Mirror episodes were just one big fan service tasty treat. I particularly liked the "evil" opening credits. If nothing else, I loved FINALLY seeing a Tholian after all these years.
Wasn't terribly impressed by the Gorn, though.
The general impression I got from most of the last season was that they knew the show was doomed, so they decided to have some fun with the time they had left.
-Rex Hondo-
"The general impression I got from most of the last season was that they knew the show was doomed, so they decided to have some fun with the time they had left."
One would question how much 'fun' Blalock had in the two-part dark universe episode. She play's T'Pol as though she's bored out of her skull for much of the episodes. I know Vulcans are supposed to be played with little emotion, but that was ridiculous. Other than visually, I've seen bits of driftwood with more 'presence' than that character evinced during those two parts.
Posted by Rex Hondo:
The general impression I got from most of the last season was that they knew the show was doomed, so they decided to have some fun with the time they had left.
I see what you mean. It certainly seems that for this season they said, "Well, we haven't been doing a lot stories that connect to other Star Trek series, and if this is our last shot, let's at least do some fan service stories this year!"
So we get Noonian Soong's ancestor and Surak and the Mirror Universe and Tholians and Gorn and Colonel Green and the Orion Slave Girls and the answer to the mystery of Klingon bumpiness and the first trip to Andoria and a little bit about the Romulans and all sorts of other stuff. Not all of it was great stuff, but it certainly felt like they were purposefully going out to make those connections.
Posted by The StarWolf:
One would question how much 'fun' Blalock had in the two-part dark universe episode.
Well, at least it looks like she got to wear her own hair in those episodes... ;-)
Made me miss Next Gen even more.
"Yeah, Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis look EXACTLY the way they did ten years ago."
I gotta disagree with that...Frakes looked tired and haggard, and Marina...well those uniforms never allowed for weight gain. Still I think she looked great, and I will always adore them if only for giving us "Imzadi".
By the way Peter, I wondered the same thing, watching the assembly scene. If this was the last episode of Enterprise, and presumably the last Star Trek episode in any form, I wouldn't be surprised if the crowd was packed with crew members. Having said that, I'm not sure I'd want to know. I still have trouble watching some of the Babylon 5 episode 'Objects at Rest,' because whenever I look at the big goodbye speech scene, I keep picking up all the crew members dressed as extras, from the makeup artist who upstages Bruce Boxleitner or Mira Furlan, I can't remember which but he's standing behind them, to director of photography John Flinn who steps into frame at the end of the shot as they walk out. And now that I've written the above, I've just realized that I may have spoiled that scene for some B5 fans for the very reason I just mentioned, so my apologies.
As someone who hadn't watched an ENTERPRISE episode since early in season 2, and who never watched regularly, I liked it, but I can understand why loyal fans of the show would feel it was a slap in the face.
See, my love was all based on the TNG angle. I was thrilled to see the Enterprise-D sets and unifroms again, and thought Frakes and Sirtis were spot on. I even loved that we got a little voice-only cameo from Brent Spiner as Data. And while I thought it was a cop-out to not allow Archer to deliver his speech, the thrilling montage of Enterprises with voiceovers from the captains was a wonderful way to end.
A lot of the concerns expressed here could have been addressed by expanding the story to two hours. You could have had the Riker/Troi stuff and still had all the beats that the ENTERPRISE fans should have got -- and they could have devised a more fitting fate for Trip.
I hadn't thought of the meta-commentary that Peter suggests (Riker as a Mary Sue). While it's fitting, I doubt that was the motivation. I'm sure the decision to include Riker and Troi was two-fold: 1) as this is, for all intents and purposes, a farewell for televised TREK, from a pop culture standpoint (beyond just TREK and ENTERPRISE fandom, because that's not what generated the dozens of articles about "the end of STAR TREK"), it makes sense to pay tribute to the entire legacy of modern televised TREK by tying into the first modern TREK series; and 2) the return of beloved characters = ratings (they snagged me -- I might not have watched had I not heard about Riker adn Troi appearing).
Much is being made of STAR TREK and STAR WARS ending within a week of each other (though we all know there will be more projects in both universes), and there's a lot of discussion as to what will be the next great cult franchise. Mentions are going to SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, HARRY POTTER and SERENITY. Anyone else think this could also be a great time to get a BUFFY-verse film off the ground? Maybe if SERENITY does well and WONDER WOMAN gets good buzz, it could go a long way to getting Sarah Michelle Gellar to rethink her distancing herself from the role? (It would help if her next couple of films tank, too, though I really want Richard Kelly's SOUTHLAND TALES to be a big hit and a great flick.)
Well, I was underwhelmed by it all.
I say that television and movie TREK could use a nice long rest. Look at what the 15 years away did for DR. WHO. The new series is amazing!
The holodeck program comes pretty darn close to the truth. Though it is able to extrapolate from any changes made by the REAL person in it (like the conversation between T'Pol and Tucker about chef), it is still basing the actions on actual files for those crew.
Not necessarily.
First, there are no holographic records from Archer's Enterprise; holodecks and the associated technology only begin to appear on starships late in Kirk's era at best (depending on whether you treat the animated series as canonical).
Second, it's perfectly possible to use holotech to create fully fictional "holonovels", such as Picard's Dixon Hill stories, Tom Paris's tales of Captain Proton, and so forth.
As far as I can tell, "These Are the Voyages...." doesn't specify whether the holodeck material is a holonovel or a reconstruction from Starfleet records, but internal evidence (such as that exchange between T'Pol and Trip) strongly suggests that it is in fact a holonovel, whose historical accuracy is no more to be relied on than, say, that of Shakespeare's "history" plays.
I have read speculation elsewhere that the "Terra Prime" arc may have been meant to extend over three episodes rather than the two as aired. That theory makes some sense to me, as it accounts both for the thin treatment of a great many "Terra Prime" subplots and for the character of the speech we hear from Archer at its conclusion (as opposed to the one we don't hear at the end of the final episode).
As an aside: am I the only viewer who was very, very weirded out by the revelation that the Earth political leader responsible for organizing the talks leading to the Federation's founding was the former mayor of Sunnydale, California? (With all respect to Harry Groener, that's a casting choice I can't imagine making in that situation.)
To answer Peter's query about the crowd in the cheap seats, I definitely recognized the Reeves-Stevenses, and a lot of the others looked familiar to me as well.
WOW!!! I was thinking the exact same thing!!! I thought it would be cool to see Sam leap to something else after signing the Charter...
BTW, was this episode supposed to cater towards TNG fans or Riker and Deanna fans? Oh wait... THERE ARE NO RIKER AND DEANNA FANS... that's how they got Riker and Deanna to be on the show, the rest of the TNG cast are too busy being successful!!!
TVTome has a listing of various people in that auditorium scene as well as appearing elsewhere in the program:
http://www.tvtome.com/Enterprise/season4.html#ep98
For the previous two episodes they also have some inside jokes from Manny Coto regarding Peter Weller's character.
I was also quite surprised to see the Mayor of Sunnydale, Harry Groener, and I bet they definitely were playing with our association there. They wanted us to think there was more to him and he was connected with Terra Prime. He ended up only having a loose past connection and was still a "good guy" for the most part.
Neil
^^^
OR from when he was previously on Trek pre-dating Buffy, as Tam Elbrum.
OR when he was on "Dear, John".
OR when he was on...many more things that the majority of the population would recognize him from.
Ms. Kitka said: BTW, was this episode supposed to cater towards TNG fans or Riker and Deanna fans? Oh wait... THERE ARE NO RIKER AND DEANNA FANS... that's how they got Riker and Deanna to be on the show, the rest of the TNG cast are too busy being successful!!!
Yeah, 'cause you see Gates McFadden everywhere these days...
Spiner, Stewart and Sirtis are the only ex-TNGers that are getting regular work in front of the cameras. Sirtis has been in four films in the last year, including Paul Haggis' critically acclaimed CRASH, currently in theaters. And even Spiner found time to guest on ENTERPRISE and even do a vocal cameo in the finale.
Obviously Stewart is the most visible actor to come out of TNG, but outside of the X-MEN films, what's the last thing you remember seeing him in? He works a lot, but mostly in smaller films and TV miniseries (and voicework -- in fact, he turned up on AMERICAN DAD last night as Stan's boss -- and the character was drawn to look like him, too).
The truth is Frakes is more successful than most former TNG stars, though most of his success is behind the camera as a producer and director.
And the only reason I'm not including more than Gates on the "where are they now? list is that I have seen Denise Crosby recenty (guesting on EYES), LeVar Burton's a successful TV director (though mostly of TREK -- he did two ENTERPRISES this season, in fact), Michael Dorn does a lot of voice work (and the occasional job in front of the camera, including two of Sirtis' last four films) and Wil Wheaton's got a writing career and does a fair amount of voice work, too (and again, the occasional job in front of the camera).
On Archer's "speech:" I assumed it was much like the Gettysburg address. Short. To the point. Memorized by every 4th-grader:
Space. The final frontier. These (waving his hand over the assembled audience) are the voyages of the star ship: Enterprise.
It's [5-yr] mission: to explore…
You get the picture. If you apply strict logic to it, you're going to have some problems with continuity, coherency, &c. But it's very "Trek" (in that strict logic very often doesn't apply). And, it explains the absence of the speech in the opening credits of the series. See? Archer wrote it at the END of the series. Get it? (nudge, nudge). Aren't they clever...
I reiterate what a previous poster said to PAD: They give you a million dollars and a blank piece of paper. Save the franchise. What do you do? I'm quite curious.
The next Captain to appear on the large or small screen should be named Calhoun. ...
Instead, bring in some of the great writers who worked on the first two seasons of B5
Hey, you didn't mention Peter David!
I'm working my way through B5 now, and "Soul Mates" is, far and away, the best episode of the first season and a half of the show. :)
As for ENT, it was crap. Berman wore out his welcome long ago. The final episode of ENT was an insult to TNG and Trek fans.
"...many more things that the majority of the population would recognize him from."
uhm...the majority of the population didn't watch Enterprise...that's why this was the last show.
The Buffy connection is I'm sure a much safer bet than the Dear, John one (was that that Judd Hirsch sitcom?)
Did we ever find out who Future Guy was? I made it through all of first and second season and the end of the third and forth...
First off, while this was Season FOUR, the Enterprise segments of the finale clearly stated that the ship was being decommissioned at the end of a TEN year tour of duty. Lot of room to play with for the paperback series if Pocket decides to continue the imprint.
Secondly, regardless of what you think of the episode and the series overall, the last minute with Picard, Kirk, and Archer sharing the voice over was cool.
Third, the next series (and come on, everyone knows there will be another one eventually) should be set back in the "present" (Picard/DS9 time).
And as an aside to John Burges and the rest, Quantum Leap only violated their "own lifetime rule" twice. Once for the aforementioned Civil War episode, and the fourth season opener when Sam and Al switched positions and Sam was the observer in Al's own lifetime leap.
BTW: Does anyone know whatever happened to the proposed animated episode for the fifth season? Considering how animation works, I figure there might at least be a script, if not some storyboards as well, laying around somewhere unused and unpublished.
Elizabeth Donald wrote: "They give you a million dollars and a blank piece of paper. Save the franchise. What do you do?"
Well, first go out and buy a pen...
a prequel episode is "kind of neat", a prequel trilogy is "a bit of a stretch", but come on folks, A PREQUEL TV SERIES!!!, thats "A BIT MUCH."
"You get the picture. If you apply strict logic to it, you're going to have some problems with continuity, coherency, &c. But it's very "Trek" (in that strict logic very often doesn't apply). And, it explains the absence of the speech in the opening credits of the series. See? Archer wrote it at the END of the series. Get it? (nudge, nudge). Aren't they clever..."
Well, then we should all be grateful we won't have to listen to any more wretched rock ballads at the beginning of a Star Trek series.
Lynn
"Orson Scott Card doesn't seem too far off right now."
Is there anything that would prevent a certain writer whose site this is from writing a Quantum Leap/ Enterprise novel? Michael Jan Friedman got away with publishing an X-Men crossover TNG novel
Craig, I did mention Peter as one of the writers from the first two seasons of B5. Unless you know another host of the website peterdavid.net of course. And when you work your way through B5, make sure you track down his Crusade episode, Ruling From the Tomb, one of the few non-JMS episodes and one of the highlights of the season (boy am I going to get hammered for that sentence!).
Michael Jan Friedman got away with publishing an X-Men crossover TNG novel
...because, for better or for worse, Marvel had the Trek comics license at the time, and also published an X-Men/Trek crossover comic.
Yes, and while we are speaking of crossovers, lets not forget She Wolf of London abd Beauty and the Beast
How about an anthology trek series that would kinda jump all over the place between eras. You could easily have guest spots for familiar charchters. Maybe made-for-movies that wouldn't have to crank out a new episode every week. A story about Starfleet Academy, Klingon crews,
Sulu's Excelsior etc. Just an idea...
Craig, I did mention Peter as one of the writers from the first two seasons of B5.
Hmm. Must've overlooked that some how. I'll try and go back to reread your post. I tend to skim posts when I have about 60 of them to go through first thing in the morning. :)
How about an anthology trek series that would kinda jump all over the place between eras.
This sounds vaguely familiar... oh, yes: the upcoming Tales from the Captain's Table anthology, with stories from captains and crews of all the various eras and novel-Trek series.
Or maybe they hired Harry Groener for the same reason he was hired for Buffy, he's a good genre character actor who's been in Trek once or twice before.
Also, lest we forget, the "To boldly go..." part of the speech originated with Zephram Cochrane at the dedication of the Warp 5 Complex. Or rather, when Cochrane said it, I think it was "to go boldly." But the fact remains...
-Rex Hondo-
Some thoughts:
Since Al was in the present, and Sam saw Al through brainwaves, technically Sam was the hologram in the imaging chamber for that entire show.
Quantum Leap also had it's theme song inexplicably get "peppier" in it's second season (or so).
There are no "Rules" to Quantum Leap. They changed every season, or when needed. "Loose guidelines" might be more appropriate.
So Star Trek is in the future. TNG is the future of the future. The series, that is. The movies are the future of the future's future. Enterprise is the past of the future, but still in OUR future. So the last episode was the past of the future's future looking at the past of another future.
Right?
Oh, and about the Mayor of Sunnydale...
Who was his wife? He mentioned being a family man several times.
Curious.
"Who was his wife? He mentioned being a family man several times."
Her name was Edna Mae. We never met her since she was long dead by the third season of "BtVS." According to Wilkins, she died aged and wrinkled and cursing his name because--since he'd sold his soul for immortality--he was still young and vigorous while she was an old woman. He mentioned her when making the fairly accurate observation that Angel and Buffy's relationship was doomed since Buffy would age and Angel wouldn't.
PAD
Well, if Mr. Kirby never posts again, we know it's because the starship Relativity showed up and dragged him away for verbally screwing with time.
If there's one QL reference I regret them never making, it's that Archer, upon realizing he was on another of his Daniels-induced time jaunts, should have mumbled, "Oh boy..."
-Rex Hondo-
The idea of doing an anthology series set in various eras and with assorted familiar and new characters seems to be a popular one in forums and discussions of this sort.
Especially one set in the Next Gen film era, after the events of the DS9 and Voyager finales, so we can continue to see "what happens next".
Obviously an anthology series that would cost between two and twenty million dollars for sets, props and costumes per episode or story arc is not an economically viable concept.
But - I'm just tossing this out - is there any reason why something like that couldn't be done as an Animated Series?
Yes, new character designs and background art for each episode or arc might still cost more than a series with six characters set in a living room.
But look at the size of the Simpsons cast of characters.
A Star Trek Universe Animated Series might not be cheap to make, but it sure would be more practical than building a different spaceship every few weeks.
(My one disappointment: 18 years of live action Trek with who knows how many alien races, and we never once saw a live-action felinoid Catian like Lt. Mress from Star Trek The Animated Series. I love cat-girls.)
Actually, I don't think she was a Caitian, but there WAS a cat girl in Star Trek V.
-Rex Hondo-
A friend of mine and I have come up with an odd theory regarding the newer Trek series (Next Gen and on):
The quality of the series was directly related to the amount of facial hair.
Think about it. The first season of TNG was a bit weak. Season 2, Riker grew a beard and they started hitting their stride.
DS9 started a bit on the weaker side, then Sisko grew a beard and things got interesting. Worf added his whiskers into the mix and the series really got fascinating.
There you have it: the major problem with Voyager and Enterprise...everyone shaved too often.
Hmmm... Intriguing. According to this theory, the upswing in quality of Enterprise season 3 could be directly attributed to the Xindi Primates, hirsuite fellows that they were.
The question remains, however, how DO we account for the differences in quality in big screen Trek? Undiscovered Country had a bunch of Klingons, and First Contact had a beard behind the camera, but Wrath of Khan was essentially beardless and Final Frontier had a big bearded Vulcan. Abberations? Or do the movies simply work on different principles?
-Rex Hondo-
Posted by Some Friggin Guy:
There you have it: the major problem with Voyager and Enterprise...everyone shaved too often.
Hmmm...there may be something to this, given that perhaps the most popular episode of ENT was the second part of the Mirror universe story--which included a bearded Vulcan Soval.
Hmm, the era-hopping anthology series idea has been brought up on other sites, then? Interesting. That's sort of what I was thinking of after watching the last "Enterprise," although I was favoring a more 24th-century-centric approach simply because there has to be a fairly substantial supply of Next Gen/Voyager/DS9 uniforms and CGI ship files available to use. It doesn't have to cost $2-$20 million per arc for sets if it's done right. It could also have a wider variety of characters appearing in a smaller number of episodes each, and if a character or setting doesn't work, well, we just don't go there again. Or people get transferred or resign or, yes, get killed off.
It's not an unworkable concept, really.
Paul
Writing a pitch in my head...
While I find the anthology idea a pretty good one, I doubt the studio executives would since consistant viewer base is helpful for selling advertizing. As has been pointed out, the following for each series is varied. I might tune in for the Excelsior/Sulu arcs, but not for Archer arcs. Courting a different audience every month or so would be a major hurdle to the executive mind.
"Michael Jan Friedman got away with publishing an X-Men crossover TNG novel"
By got away with, do you mean "was hired to write"?
It happened durring an "Anniversary Year" for Trek and X-Men, that Marvel was publishing Trek Comics and Pocket had the Marvel books license, so they did a series of cross-overs....2 X-Men/Trek (1 Tos, 1 TNG) comics and 1 novel.
There was no "getting away with it"--and Planet X really shouldn't be concidered a model for any kind of cross-over story.
And I thought Endgame(VOY) was an awful series finale.
Luigi Novi,
"And I thought Endgame was an awful series finale."
And you were right:)
A peppier theme song, along with schedule changes usually meant a deathknell for the TV series.
How I miss Quantum Leap!
Sad thing is, the Enterprise theme had actually started to grow on me when they added the damn country guitar and turned it to complete crap.
-Rex Hondo-
Actually, I think PENNY ARCADE really nailed something when they put out this:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-07-04
Gods, does this resonate truth!
The only problem I had with Enterprise as a series was it was a little too self-referencing (1st season line about a holographic doctor, for example). But the biggest problem with the series overall? The fct that they weren't taking any submitted scripts the way the all the previous series did. Have the same writing staff for 18 years or so and they're bound to revisit their own wells. Some of the best episodes came out of fan submissions. I had a few doozies in my head that could've been marvy episodes (in particular a little DS9 tale called Braingames but I wrote it during the seventh season, timing is everything).
Oh dear...the "facial hair" thing. Like hemlines and the stock market?...
Yet is suggests (in the appropriate Royal Navy parlance, surely a useful paradigm for Trek) the perfect title for the (successful) next series.
"Star Trek: Full Set". ;)