PeterDavid.net

I remember her. Didn't John Byrne provide the art for that character? Cover perhaps?

Fred

http://www.spiderfan.org/cgi-bin/cover.pl?80123,what_the,020.jpg

Was that heer first appearance? Maybe I'm misrembering and thinking of the original What The? covers that featured Wolverine spoofs.

Wait a minute -- X-23 is a serious character?

Wolverina first showed up in a story I wrote called "Gone Fishin'" in which Wolverine, tired of incessant crossovers and guest appearances, decided to bail from Marvel Comics and just take a fishing holiday. Wolverina showed up at the end.

To my astonishment, she showed up in later issues of "What Th--!" Supposedly writers loved the notion of a female Wolverine.

As I said: Who knew?

PAD

Wait a minute -- X-23 is a serious character?

Ostensibly, yeah. Although, having been created for and introduced on X-Men: Evolution, she's suffering from the same pains crossing media that Harley Quinn did (at least at first). In her animated world - especially with most of the X-Men teenagers, and Wolverine a little "watered down" (for want of a better term) from his comics persona - she fit, and her story worked within the framework of the series and the kinds of stories it told.

In the mainstream Marvel Universe, though, she's a "dime a dozen" character. But, Marvel being Marvel, if it's connected to Wolverine, it's obviously The Next Big Thing.

Eh, Tom DeFalco did the whole concept a lot better than Evolution or Marvel with his Wild Thing title for M2. Teenage daughter of Wolvering and Psylocke? Sure, I can roll with that. Teenage gender-swapped clone of Wolverine? Yeesh. I mean, didn't Marvel learn it's lesson with clones? It only leads to trouble. :p

Stacy

Eh, Tom DeFalco did the whole concept a lot better than Evolution or Marvel with his Wild Thing title for M2. Teenage daughter of Wolvering and Psylocke? Sure, I can roll with that. Teenage gender-swapped clone of Wolverine? Yeesh. I mean, didn't Marvel learn it's lesson with clones? It only leads to trouble. :p

Stacy

Did Wolverina pre-date the MC2 character Wild Thing? Larry Hama did a great job writing her short-lived series.

I remember there being a porn parody (probably called the "SeX-Men" or something) where the Wolverine character was a female, called "Vulvarine." :-D

Oh, hey... Rina Logan (aka Wild Thing) was the daughter of Wolverine and Elektra.

Peter, your avant guard quality makes you one with Orson Welles. His lighting in the Thatcher Memorial Library scene gave us Speilberg; his Chapman boom shot from the opening of "Touch of Evil" gave us endless amounts of long, stylized tracking shots. You're ahead of your time, my friend. Or as Gore Vidal says, at times I am so avant garde I am arere (sp?)garde.

Best,
Mark

This is my third snow day in a row. I may be posting quite a bit today.

Hot character according to Marvel. Why are they forcing soo many teen-age girls as Heros/lead characters in books? Ariana (or whatever the new Spider-Girl), Jubilee, New Scorpion, the Hot new character X-23, Mary Jane. None of the ones launched so far have stuck, and all the ones mentioned that have launched have been cancelled and or re-launched. X-23 will be big launch with no staying power. You can feed the fans only so much crud before they stop biting. Ok sorry small rant, I feel better thanks for listening.

Wolverina? Yikes! What's next?

Hey, maybe there's hope for the Fin Fang Foomilla character I drew for the swimsuit issue of CAPA-alpha a few years back.

"Why are they forcing soo many teen-age girls as Heros/lead characters in books?"

They're called boobs, Ed.

Seriously, Marvel's trying to capture that elusive but lucrative teen girl market. Ergo, more teen girl protagonists.

PAD wrote: Wolverina first showed up in a story I wrote called "Gone Fishin'" in which Wolverine, tired of incessant crossovers and guest appearances, decided to bail from Marvel Comics and just take a fishing holiday. Wolverina showed up at the end.

You wrote "Gone Fishin'", PAD? Wow, no wonder I still remember that story so many years later. It's really amazing the number of stories you wrote that I loved before I started following creators that I now look back on and say, "Oh, no wonder I liked it so much..."

Thanks for the fun!

-Joe

Peter, did Wolverina appear before or after that female descendant of Wolverine in Guardians of the Galaxy?

Michael Pullman said, "Seriously, Marvel's trying to capture that elusive but lucrative teen girl market. Ergo, more teen girl protagonists."

You certainly don't mean real teen girls - I mean biological females, right? You mean the teenage boys and adults with teenage libidos that want to LOOK at teenage girls.

Besides the difficulty of getting teenage girls into comic book shops (who wants to be around those stinky boys, even in a shopping mall store?) these girls are still doing the same thing that male superheroes are doing. Maybe today's girls aren't interested in the things that Supergirl used to do in her 1950's - 60's books, like try on outfits, hang around with semi-sentient animals, work secretly to help shy girls get dates, and the like - but male power fantasies probably aren't what they want.

Of course, if I knew what girls wanted, I never have gotten involved in comic books at all.

Any chance of seeing your various one-shot stories reprinted? That "Wolverina" thing would make a great extra feature in the X-23 trade. I'd buy it just for that.

"One, two, three, four!
I love Wolverine Corps!"

Besides the difficulty of getting teenage girls into comic book shops (who wants to be around those stinky boys, even in a shopping mall store?) these girls are still doing the same thing that male superheroes are doing.

No, it's the manga that gets teenage girls into comic book shops these days. (And I work at a gaming store, I put up with stinky boys most of the week. Can't you boys shower?)

Hey, at least they're trying. When I was a teenager, the closest I had to a comic book role model was Firestar or something. (Which probably explains why I preferred Speedball. Firestar was just a microwavable Angst Pot Pie.)

Of course, I'm just a girl who reads comics, so what do I know?

Eric! says, "Hot character according to Marvel. Why are they forcing soo many teen-age girls as Heros/lead characters in books?"

I think this boils down, in large part anyway, to the influence of manga and anime on American readers, particularly the younger teenage girls (as stated above). Where many of these kids don't really get any thrill from the traditional mainstream fare, there are compartively huge numbers of fangirls for the Japanese genres.

It's not that much of a stretch to think that, once the girls start making appearances in the comic shops to get their manga, they can be persuaded to check out some of those superhero titles that they'd otherwise turn their noses up at. Give retailers a Spider-Girl or an X23, and they have a character that, on the face of it, young female readers might be able to relate to more than they might the real Wolvie or Spidey. If written well, so much the better. (I've not read these titles, so I can't judge the quality of the script. ^.^; )

With the arrival of books like Arana and X23, I was almost convinced that Marvel was selling out, but giving it some thought, and giving them the benefit of the doubt, it might be that they're making a real attempt to adjust to modern "realities" in a way that I don't think they ever had before. We'll see, I guess...

Wildcat

I'm not much on wolverine and the x-men (aside from the movies). I come from an almost strictly DC comics family (not counting spider-man, pre-clone). X-23 sounds a bit silly to me. Honestly, I don't know anyone saying how much they like this character aside from the company trying to promote her.

I am a guy, but I definatly think, that not only aren't there enough comics featureing reailstic female charaters, both in the way they are drawn (as peter david wrote in YJ ripping from monty python, "she certianly has huge, uh, tracks of land") and also, to a certain extent, they way they are written.

That being said, there is also a huge gap (not to say they don't exist but they are very very few and far between) of non-white characters, and even less non-white leading roles. It's better than it used to be, but if we really want comics to survive, which I certianly do, it's gotta be more inclusive.

(and I'm talking about mainstream comics, indipendant comics don't have this problem to the same extent, though the problem exists there too).

Too many spelling errors in my previous post. I'll spell check next time, I promise. It hurts me just to read over it. Damn my impatience.

Don't be silly. X-23 was created by Rob Liefeld and Louise Simonson.

If it's any consolation, she probably won't be around for very long, if Arana's reception is any indication. :)

Peter, did Wolverina appear before or after that female descendant of Wolverine in Guardians of the Galaxy?

Rancor, iirc.

I always loved GotG. Where's the petition to bring them back, anyways? I nearly have a complete run of that series. :)

Well the first time that I read and seen X-23 (are they really going to stick with that name?) was in Uncanny X-Men # 250 and # 251, which Alan Davis does a great job. X-23 actually looked good in the Fang outfit. Heck, maybe Marvel should give her the "Fang" codename.

Speaking of Guardians of the Galaxy, if the Powers That Be at Marvel ever decide to do a relauch. I hope PAD's name is attached to that project.

I don't have any problem with Marvel producing more books with female leads in them, given that most of their male leads are dullards of the very highest order---most of them were creatively burnt out years ago. That said, X-23 is just Wolverine-lite, Wolverine for Buffy fans who is an entirely derrivative character. Marvel need to do much better than this...

"Speaking of Guardians of the Galaxy, if the Powers That Be at Marvel ever decide to do a relauch. I hope PAD's name is attached to that project."

I appreciate the notion but, really, just what I need. My name attached to a title that's going to be low-ordered from the get-go and canceled by issue #6 no matter who's writing it, but it'll be ascribed to me not being able to write material people like.

PAD

I thought that sort of book was your specialty...

:/

"That being said, there is also a huge gap (not to say they don't exist but they are very very few and far between) of non-white characters, and even less non-white leading roles. It's better than it used to be, but if we really want comics to survive, which I certianly do, it's gotta be more inclusive."

They are making non-white leads. One of the new Spider-Man knock offs is of a Latina, and there's also Spider-Man India, who is, suprise suprise, Indian.

Well the first time that I read and seen X-23 (are they really going to stick with that name?) was in Uncanny X-Men # 250 and # 251, which Alan Davis does a great job

I'm guessing you mean Uncanny #450 and #451. That was, iirc, her 2nd appearance.

Her first appearance was in that odd-lived Nyx series, which has had so many delays for only 5 issues that I have to wonder if it's even still going.

if I'd waited a few years and pitched it seriously and given her a more straightforward designation such as X-23, I'd've created the new hot character

I dunno about "hot new character" (I've yet to hear from any big fans of X-23), but you certainly would have created a character that Marvel wants to push. On the downside, we'd all be very embarassed for you ;)

Well, Marvel sure are marketing genuises, because everybody knows that a female version of a popular male hero is a sure thing. After all, it's a popular hero—with breasts! I mean, Spider-Man is the most popular hero at Marvel, so a Spider-Woman comic ought to sell like hotcakes, huh? Or, how about a Spider-Girl comic—that one would never be in danger of being cancelled. A female Hulk ought to be able to weather changes of creator and never have to be relaunched again and again, I'd bet. A female version of the Thing replacing Ben Grimm in the FF? That's gold, baby, gold.

And even better, since creating and developing intriguing, worthy new characters is kinda difficult and unpredictable, why not just launch teen versions of your four most powerful heroes? After all, everybody loved Muppet Babies, Flintstone Kids, A Pup Named Scooby-Doo and James Bond, Jr.—haven't each and every one of these properties grown to be more popular and familiar than the originals? What was so popular in the eighties, therefore, can't fail: by gum, it will be the most popular and influentual comic of the 21st century!

House of "Ideas," hooey.

I actually bought that at a comic book convention in Jacksonville and Mr. David was there. Man, I wish I knew he wrote that then.

Just found it for reference while at a comic shop today. What The..? #11, dated 1991. Included the origin "kinda" and has both her and the She-Hulk on the cover, courtesy of John Byrne. Now that I am aware that Peter wrote it, I'm intrigued enough to dig it out of my collection to reread it.

Fred

Now it's time for my geek hat to go on.

One thing I don't get, how is she x-23? The only X-men I've ever read was the run by Grant Morrison, and in his storyline it was "revealed" that wolverine wasn't weapon X, rather weapon 10 (X obviously being the roman numeral) because he was the tenth version of that groups mutant weapons project. I remember this because the X-men had dealings with the character weapon 13 (XIII), Phantomex I believe was his name.

So if all this holds her name isn't really x-23 her name is 10-23? I just don't get how that works.

, how about a Spider-Girl comic—that one would never be in danger of being cancelled.

*Enda Mole voice* Constantly, Dah-ling, constantly.

Gof forbid they should actually make an ORIGINAL female character. We can only produce female versions of already popular characters. Yeah, that's the message girls can't get, that they can't be validated without a male.

Bah.

Spider-Girl and She-Hulk are both very good comics.

And given how many other spider and gamma ray characters there are, shouldn't at least one of them be female?

Wolverine is more of a unique type of character, so it doesn't make as much sense for there to be a female version of him. Or at least not so closely imitated. Lady Deathstrike is okay.

"Why are they forcing soo many teen-age girls as Heros/lead characters in books? Ariana (or whatever the new Spider-Girl), Jubilee, New Scorpion, the Hot new character X-23, Mary Jane. None of the ones launched so far have stuck, and all the ones mentioned that have launched have been cancelled and or re-launched."

"Mary Jane", at least, really is aimed at the teen-aged girl/shojo manga market and seems to be (relatively) successful (unless it's been cancelled and I just haven't heard about it). Basically a high-school soap opera, it doesn't try to shoe-horn itself into the superhero genre.

This is off-topic, but since Cowboy Pete's TV Roundup is on indefinite hiatus, I thought I'd say it here:

Seeing Alicia (Sarah Carter) in her honeymoon outfit on SMALLVILLE last night was one of the highligts of my life!!! Wow!!!

(Alas for Clark, PAD's observation that "he can't ever get any" still holds up. And in last night's episode, we learn that Jimmy Olsen has had sex before Clark does. How unfair is that???)

(Also, if anyone wants to know which series regular finds out Clark's secret next week, the episode details at epguides.com (I got there by going to the IMDB, using the Miscellaneous link, then going to epguides.com) tell exactly who finds out Clark's secret.)

Alicia, in the white corset, garter belt, and tiara...

I tend to ignore most everything that happened in Morrison's run. Then again, I don't really read X-Men to begin with, but I do know that scrapping the Weapon X program entirely in favour of some cryptic craziness messes with a whole ton of well-established characters. Deadpool, Sabertooth, Wild Child, all of Alpha Flight (not that anyone cares).

That said, X-23 is still a stupid name and a pretty lame premise.

Randomous:

>That said, X-23 is still a stupid name and a pretty lame premise.

Yet, surprisingly well executed.

Fred

My question is they said X-23 or whatever first issue sold out. Does Marvel release numbers for what a sell out is? I get the feeling they printed a low enough number so that they could say "sold out." I notice they do that with their orders and the amount retailers have to order to get the Variant covers..thus increasing their numbers for the poor shmoes that have to have every cover!

"Just found it for reference while at a comic shop today. What The..? #11, dated 1991. Included the origin "kinda" and has both her and the She-Hulk on the cover, courtesy of John Byrne. Now that I am aware that Peter wrote it, I'm intrigued enough to dig it out of my collection to reread it."

Uh, no. No, I didn't write that one. She appeared at the end of an earlier story that I wrote, and I was thunderstruck to see that they turned aound and did a whole "Wolverina"-focused issue. My throwaway notions always seem to be the ones that stick.

PAD

I believe it was issue #9

You came up with that issue? I wasn't aware of that.
Did you also create 'Milk and Cookies'? ^_^

Charles K wrote:
Don't be silly. X-23 was created by Rob Liefeld and Louise Simonson.

Actually, X-23 was created by Craig Kyle for X-Men: Evo.

And in that context... she was a flaiming MarySue. I've only encountered her once in the comics, and I didn't even recognize her. I'm hoping this means she's being handled better now.

Gah. Mary Sue.

"So if all this holds her name isn't really x-23 her name is 10-23? I just don't get how that works."

Eh, like Marvel pays any attention to Grant's stuff these days anyway.

Then again, how exciting would a character whose name means "Stand by" be, anyway?

"So if all this holds her name isn't really x-23 her name is 10-23? I just don't get how that works."

X-23 is the result of a group who stole a blood sample out of the Weapon X project. They were only affiliated in that they were spies out to develop a weapon for their own use. X-23 was given the name due to the fact that their first 22 attempts to clone Weapon X were unsuccessful. They wouldn't necessarily know or even care about the origins of the project name. Not the best stuff I've ever read, but far from the worst. I'm curious enough to see where they go with it.

Fred

What happened to the first 22 clones? Was it anything like what happened in Barry Ween?

Michael Pullman:

>What happened to the first 22 clones? Was it anything like what happened in Barry Ween?

Not nearly as funny as Barry's story. Essentially, they seperated the Y chromosome from the sample they had and duplicated the intact x. Hence the reason that the clone is female.

So who came first? Rancor or Wolverina?

Greg Burgas,
"Wait a minute - "X-23" is a serious character."
Have you actually, you know, READ the character's launch? She's far more serious than your sarcastic post.

PAD,
"To my astonishment, she showed up in later issues of "'What Th-?'" Supposedly writers loved the notion of a female Wolverine.
As I said: Who knew?"

Well, why the heck wouldn't they?

For the record, Wild Thing was the daugher of Wolverine and Elktra, not Psylock even though she had the same powers as Psylock... which I always thought was stupid.

Anyway I've read the first couple of issues of X-22 and for what it is, it's really not a bad little book.

And for those worried about Marvel spreading the X-fanchise too thin, I'm reminded of a quote from Law & Order creator Dick Wolf.

"And the one rule on brand extensions is there is no such thing as a bad brand extension except one that doesn't work. Because that hurts the whole brand. Like New Coke."

"the daugher of Wolverine and Elktra"

Ah yes.

Canada's foremost superheroine and onetime partner of Mooseman.

Nytwyng,
"Ostensibly, yeah. Although having been created for and introduced on 'X-Men: Evolution' she's suffering from the same pains crossing media as Harley Quinn"

While it is likely she will, it is far from certain. Also, for those griping about the fact that she actually had her origins on a cartoon, please note that many additions to the mythos of other characters, many iconic, came from radio, TV and other media. Superman is a perfect example.
Also, Firestar was created for "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends", and yet was a major part of "The New Warriors" and has played significant roles in The X-Men and Avengers.

"In the mainstream Marvel Universe, though, she's a dime a dozen character."
Really? Why? On what do you basis? The series has JUST started. Why make a snap judgement so quickly? mean, Wolverine looked pretty goofy in his first appearance in "The Incredible Hulk", didn't he?

"But Marvel being Marvel, if it's connected to Wolverine, it's obviously the Next Big Thing."
Marvel being Marvel? What does that mean, exactly? And Wolverine is not nearly as (over) exposed as he was in the '90s. He is being handled tremendously well with top talent on the two main books he's in in the "real" Marvel universe - Joss Whedon/John Cassaday on "Astonishing X-Men" and Mark Millar/John Romita, Jr. on "Wolverine". then, of course, there's "Ultimate X-Men". But do you consider "The Fantastic Four" overexposed because they have an Ultimate book? Of course, now there is "New Avengers", but he hasn't even appeared in the book yet!

A hiliarious yet oddly disturbing (and not G-rated) observation on why X-23 exists was made today by Dorian in his excellent Postmodern Barney comics blog made me shoot Dr. Pepper out my nose. Apt, funny, slightly pornographic, and very much a red flag waved in the face of X-23 fans.

Ugh. If you created X-23 I think I would have to spork you. I'd just count your blessings and chalk this up as The Best Thing That (Thankfully) Never Happened To You.