November 18, 2004

Foolish Consistencies and...

But I Digress...
April 12, 1996

And now, due to popular demand (well, a couple of people have asked) here's an installment of a brand new features which I call:

WEIRD TWISTED REASONABLY TRUE COMIC BOOK STORIES

Yes, what WTRTCBS represents are weird stories of stuff I've done in comic books, "reasonably true" because they're being reported to the best of my recollection.

And what's the subject of this installment? Well, as it so happens I've gotten several inquiries recently, both postal and electronic, about my unexpected involvement with what was--at the time--one of the most successful mysteries Marvel had going. It was in the Spider-Man titles, back when the words, "Who do you think he really is?" applied to someone other than the title character.

In this instance, the question referred to a Spidey villain whose true identity had fired the imaginations of Marvel readers (this was back when Marvel fired something other than editorial personnel.) And that villain was:

THE HOBGOBLIN

Yes, the Hobgoblin...a villain whose identity was revealed to fans in one of the most bizarre twists that Marvel ever embarked upon. Stunned fans demanded, "Why the hell did you do it this way?" And I shall now answer that.

At the time, Hobgoblin had managed to move beyond simply being the Green Goblin redux, becoming one of Spidey's more formidable villains and certainly the talk of Spidey fandom. Who is he really? was one of the most bandied about questions in the letters pages, one of the most posed queries at conventions. (What I started doing was answering it point blank. Fans would come up to me at signings and say, "Who's the Hobgoblin?" And I'd say, "Ned Leeds" or "Flash Thompson" or "Jameson" or whoever crossed my mind at that moment. The questioner would always look surprised, and I'd say, "You asked. What'd you expect me to do?" And they'd wander off, looking shellshocked. And I'd tell the next questioner something different.)

But the question did have to be settled and answered eventually. And it became somewhat problematic, especially considering that Roger Stern (the character's guiding light) was no longer involved with Spider-Man at the time that we were starting to move towards a revelation storyline.

At one point there was a Spider-writer's meeting, spearheaded by editor Jim Owsley. All the Spider writers discussed the open issue of who the Hobgoblin really was. Tom DeFalco's inclination was to go on the assumption that Hobby was Daily Bugle reporter Ned Leeds. There was always the option of going in a different direction at the last minute. But so that we were all on the same page, the consensus was that we would all operate on the basis that Ned was indeed Hobgoblin. Amazing Spider-Man, which Tom was writing at the time (I was on Spectacular Spider-Man) would be the main source for clues, hints and storylines that would eventually lead up to the revelation of the Hobgoblin's identity...presumably Ned, unless so many readers nailed it that we felt we had to go in another direction.

Time passed, stories were written...

And then stuff happened.

Tom left Amazing Spider-Man under circumstances that were--how shall I put it?--less than cordial between himself and Owsley. This was unfortunate, since I thought that Tom's work on Spider-Man was some of his best stuff.

At the time, guesses as to Hobby's identity were coming in hot and heavy since Tom had stepped up the Hobgoblin storyline. And the vast majority of the guesses centered on Hobby being Ned Leeds. We weren't fooling a lot of people; indeed, most of the people who guessed otherwise did so on the basis that it couldn't be Ned because it couldn't be that obvious.

In any event, one day Jim Owsley came by my office (I was working in the sales department at the time) and said, "You busy for lunch?"

"Nooo..."

"Good. We're going out to discuss," and he got a slightly demented cackle in his voice, "the Hobgoblin. You're going to write the story that reveals his identity..."

"I am?"

"Yes. And at lunch, I'll tell you who he is."

I frowned. "He's Ned Leeds."

"At lunch," Owsley repeated, sounding quite mysterious, and evaporated from my office door.

So we went out to lunch and Owsley wasted no time in getting down to business. "Okay. In Amazing Spider-Man #289, we're going to reveal who the Hobgoblin is."

"Right. Ned Leeds," I said, in hopes that Owsley's odd reaction to my saying it previously had been an aberration.

"Nope. Because I'm killing off Ned Leeds."

My jaw kind of dropped. "You're what?!"

"There's going to be a Spider-Man/Wolverine one shot that I'm writing, and Spider-Man is going to find Ned dead in his hotel room."

"Dead? Who killed him?"

"We don't show who killed him, but it's implied that it's terrorists."

"But...but," I stammered, "if you're killing off Ned...then who is the Hobgoblin?"

Owsley grinned. "The Foreigner."

The Foreigner was a master assassin character whom I'd created to be a nemesis for Spider-Man. Bore a strong resemblance (when he was drawn correctly) to Patrick McGoohan.

"The Foreigner?!" I said. "The Foreigner wouldn't be the Hobgoblin!"

"Sure! It'll be great!"

"No, it won't be great," I said. "First off, the Foreigner's whole shtick is that he's low profile. He doesn't run around in gaudy, conspicuous costumes. He blends in. Taking on a costumed villain identity is totally against his character. And second, we've been telling people that Hobgoblin is an already-established character in the Spider-Man cast. The Foreigner was created after Hobgoblin showed up. It's a cheat. We'd be cheating the readers. You've got to change this idea of Ned being killed."

"It's too late. The book's already written and drawn."

I moaned.

"Okay," said Owsley gamely. "If you don't want it to be the Foreigner, then let's figure out who it can be."

We started going over recent developments in Amazing, and slowly we came to a hideous realization.

He had to be Ned Leeds. Tom had been extremely thorough, perhaps too much so. When one took all the clues into account, there was really no one besides Ned Leeds that it could be. No wonder practically all the readers were figuring it out. No other suspects really fit.

"The Hobgoblin has to be Ned Leeds," I said.

"Yeah, but Ned's going to be dead a couple of months before #289 comes out. He can't be the Hobgoblin."

I thought about that. And thought about that.

And I had one of those frightening skewed moments of mine. A moment when I look at a story point where something outrageous would be required to resolve it, and I think to myself, Well we couldn't possibly conclude it that way. And then that magic two word phrase occurs to me, the phrase being...

"Why not?"

Owsley looked at me strangely. "What do you mean, why not?"

"Why can't he be the Hobgoblin?"

"Because he'll be dead."

"Exactly!" I said with increasing excitement. "Jim, think about it. Comic readers are locked into certain patterns which we can use to our advantage. And when it comes to mystery villains, the pattern is: You present your suspects, you drop clues, you might kill off a suspect or two, you have a big confrontation with the hero and the villain, and the villain is unmasked."

I could see he was still with me, if skeptical, so I pushed on. "Right now, Ned Leeds is the number one suspect. But if we violate the pattern...if we kill him off, but make it that he was the Hobgoblin...we can sucker punch all the readers. Ned Leeds will go from being the most likely suspect to the least. Fans will have the same reaction you just had: Ned's dead, so that eliminates him as a suspect. For a period of several months between Ned's death and issue #289, the one guy fans will be positive can't be the Hobgoblin is Ned Leeds. We're sacrificing the climactic showdown between Spidey and his arch foe...but what we're gaining in exchange is something unprecedented. Something so unique, that no one would ever be able to do it again."

"It's so stupid, who'd want to?" Owsley said, but I could tell that he was really getting into the loopy novelty of it. "But then you're saying the Hobgoblin's dead? Gone?"

"We'll have a new Hobgoblin. The guy who was responsible for his death, whoever that is. It won't be terrorists, it'll be..." I paused, trying to come up with something.

And Owz and I were on the same wavelength, because we said it at the same time: "Jack O'Lantern."

It made perfect sense. Jack O'Lantern was scared of Hobby and had gotten the snot kicked out of himself the last time they'd faced off.

Very quickly the mysterious and unseen terrorists who had knocked off Ned Leeds metamorphosized into operatives of the Foreigner. It was consistent for Jack O'Lantern. Having gotten his head handed to him once, he decided to hire a top assassin to do his dirty work for him. And we had the simple leap of faith that the Foreigner, being as well-connected as he was, had been able to determine that Ned was the Hobgoblin. Why not? God knows enough fans with far less resources than the Foreigner had figured it out. Jack hires Foreigner, Foreigner aces Ned, Jack becomes the new Hobgoblin, and we get our shock revelation.

And that's exactly what we did.

When the revelation issue came out, I fancied that I could hear jaws dropping throughout the country. People didn't know what to make of it. Some felt cheated. Some loved the idea that we had totally fooled them.

And almost all of them said, "How the hell did you come up with this?"

And now you know. So if you didn't like it, blame me. Sure, I was just dealing with the plot twists that had been thrown at me, but ultimately, the responsibility is mine.

But it was Owsley's idea to kill off Jean DeWolff, and Al Milgrom and Bob Harras made the Hulk gray.

That's another story, though...

(Peter David, writer of stuff, can be written to at To Be Continued, Inc., PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705.)

Posted by Glenn Hauman at November 18, 2004 10:00 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commenting
Comments
Posted by: Matt Adler at November 18, 2004 10:16 PM

I love this story. Not ASM #289 (though that's good too), but the story of the behind the scenes drama leading up to it. I've heard it so many times, but I never get tired of it.

My one fan dream would be to see you, Tom DeFalco, and Owsley/Priest reunited at a convention panel to discuss and resolve the Rashomon-like differences in recollection. Man, that would be fun to see.

Posted by: Dave Ziegler at November 18, 2004 10:23 PM

So what about the Jean DeWolff story? Have you ever gone into the details of that one? THAT'S the one I'd like to hear about. Not that this one wasn't enjoyable, because it was.

Posted by: Randomus at November 19, 2004 12:33 AM

Wow, that was a really cool story! I always love hearing about the 'behind the scenes' thinking that goes into these stories. Thanks for relating it.

Posted by: Jerome Maida at November 19, 2004 12:48 AM

This was the first time I've read this PAD. Pretty cool.

Posted by: Thacher E. Cleveland at November 19, 2004 01:05 AM

I love ASM #289 if only for the exchange:

Hobgoblin, to the prone Spider-Man: "At last! Defeat at the hands of the hobgoblin!"
Spider-Man: "Da feet at da hands? What about da fist in da face!" *punches him in the face*

That makes me chuckle every time, and I was years into my love affair with Peter before I reread the comic and saw that he had written it.

And we lived happily ever after...
-TEC

Posted by: Ken at November 19, 2004 01:16 AM

So, what did you think of Roger Stern's later revelation of who the Hobgoblin really was?

Posted by: Novafan at November 19, 2004 01:43 AM

Great story Peter. I didn't know that you wrote those stories. Back then I never paid attention to who the writer or artist was.

Novafan

Posted by: LynnW at November 19, 2004 02:12 AM

I remember when the Hobgoblin was introduced feeling apalled that Marvel was so bankrupt for ideas that it had to do a pale imitation of a former storyline, and was very disappointed that a writer I normally liked, Roger Stern, was involved. The only redeeming quality the Hobgoblin had in my eyes was that at least Norman Osborn wasn't brought back from the dead. Marvel hadn't stooped that low.

In hindsight, it seems that the Hobgoblin storyline was one of the better ones to appear in the Spider-Man books for several years, and was far superior to the Spider-clone saga that went on forever. I'm exceedingly glad that JMS put a much needed breath of fresh air into a character who had so long been written with such a lack of originality.

Lynn

Posted by: Luigi Novi at November 19, 2004 04:13 AM

Wow. I'm so happy that I'm getting to read these columns that appeared before I started reading CBG. Up until recently, all the BID's Glenn's been posting have been ones I've read. The recent ones have not, and I'm loving it. I'm also loving how so many of them have connections with more recent events, in this case, the book Roger Stern wrote a few years in which he revealed who the Hobgoblin really really was (not Leeds).

Posted by: MC Hairtrigger at November 19, 2004 06:04 AM

First, I loved this story. I was one of the sucker punched readers who was blown away by the Ned Leeds post-mortem revelation.

But I haven't read the Spidey books in years.

What the hell did Stern do to the Ned Leeds storyline? Who did he claim the HobGoblin was???

Posted by: Somebody at November 19, 2004 06:19 AM

> What the hell did Stern do to the Ned Leeds storyline? Who did he claim the HobGoblin was???

Roderick Kingsley (see Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives).

Oh, and on the Tom D thing:

http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=020808164356
http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=020808225522
http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=010509031658

Posted by: Somebody at November 19, 2004 06:19 AM

And no MadroX #3 whatd'ya'think?

Posted by: Andres at November 19, 2004 07:13 AM

I have only a vague memory of the storyline, but I remember that at the time I thought it was a mess.

Something that never stopped bothering me was that when we first met the Hobgoblin he ruthlessly killed the guy who had found the Globlin equipment, yet later, when it was revealed that it was Leeds, we had to believe he had started being a good guy, it was way too contrived for my suspension of disbelief.

I was kind of relieved when it turned out that he wasn't really him.

By the way, whatever happened to the Foreigner?

Posted by: Aaron Thall at November 19, 2004 07:51 AM

Ummm... Why didn't anybody call Stern up and ASK him who Hobby was supposed to be?

This is why you don't write a mystery without KNOWING WHO DID IT.

Posted by: Den at November 19, 2004 09:36 AM

I had heard once that one of the reasons Stern left was because he wanted the Hobgoblin to be someone who was a total stranger to Spider-man, because he felt that was more realistic.

Can anyone confirm that?

Posted by: David Hunt at November 19, 2004 09:58 AM

My interaction with the story was somewhat different. At the time the only Spidey book that I was reading was ASM (long story), but that had all the clues so I was sure that it was Ned Leeds. This bothered me because, as previously stated, he'd cold-bloodedly murdered a man when he got the equipment and Ned had been presented as a pretty likable crusading reporter at that time. I especially remember his quest to expose the Brand corporation. However, the clues all point to Ned. It HAD to be him.

Now here's the funny part: I never read that Spider-Man/Wolverine thing. I thought about buying it, but I had money trouble and it just didn't sound that compelling. So, the first first I heard about Ned's death was in the big reveal issue of #289. What went through my mind? Something like "They've killed the Hobgoblin? Nah, Ned must have faked his death." By the time it became obvious that Ned was really dead, it was too late for me to start falling into the logic trap that you'd set.

Posted by: AdamYJ at November 19, 2004 10:23 AM

"I had heard once that one of the reasons Stern left was because he wanted the Hobgoblin to be someone who was a total stranger to Spider-man, because he felt that was more realistic.

Can anyone confirm that?"

No, that was why Steve Ditko left Amazing Spider-Man. He wanted The Green Goblin to be someone other than Norman Osborn. At least, that was part of it.

I wasn't around for that storyline, but it sounds like it was fun. The thing is, though I wasn't around for that story, I know who Hobgoblin is from my own experience. From what I've seen, he's Jason Philip Macendale. He's always been Jason Philip Macendale. Forgot Ned Leeds, forget Roderick Kingsley and forget his former identity as Jack O'Lantern. I can't imagine Hobgoblin as anyone but Macendale and I can't imagine Macendale as anyone but The Hobgoblin. I remember back in the '90s Spider-Man cartoon, they skipped over a whole lot of that extra stuff and just made it Macendale. He's probably the name that's been associated with the Hobgoblin for the longest. That's the thing about being a fan is that your mind creates a snapshot of certain characters and events that is hard to deviate from at times. At least I learned to be more flexible with certain other characters.

Posted by: Larry Manekin at November 19, 2004 10:31 AM

I remember the SpiderMan/Wolverine one shot. I thought it was great at the time, but had no idea why they were choosing that book to screw with continuity. Call it hindsight, but I remember thinking that it was obvious that it had been written by someone with no idea what was going on in the other books at the time.

Posted by: Jack at November 19, 2004 10:39 AM

Ah, this brings back some memories. That Spidey/Wolvie one-shot remains, for me, one of the best stories I have read of either of these two characters. I thought Owsley nailed the characters perfect. Every time I see them together now, it pales in comparison to this one-shot.

Posted by: Michael3649 at November 19, 2004 10:52 AM

Great post! Thanks for the "behind the scenes" look. And it does bring back fond memories. That was a truly fun story line.

And I echo the request for a "behind the scenes" look at the Death of Jean DeWolff!

Posted by: Somebody at November 19, 2004 12:13 PM

To add to the above:

http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=030912145932

Posted by: Evan at November 19, 2004 12:33 PM

Here's another request for the Jean DeWolf story.

Posted by: Saul at November 19, 2004 12:49 PM

If I'm remembering correctly, when that one-shot came out with Ned dead, he was found inside the Goblin costume by some guys who spoke only German. A friend of mine who also read Spidey at the time, and knew German, said they were saying something like "Hey, what's this guy doing in this costume? It's the wrong guy!" This bugged me for months (and really pissed off my friend), as it seemed that whoever wrote the German didn't know what they were writing; Ned was *of course* the Hobgoblin. When the reveal came later on, it suddenly made sense. Sadly, I lost contact with that friend before the reveal, and never got to see his reaction when it turned out that whoever wrote the German was throwing us a real clue.

Posted by: Somebody at November 19, 2004 02:01 PM

> If I'm remembering correctly, when that one-shot came out with Ned dead, he was found inside the Goblin costume by some guys who spoke only German.

Ned did NOT appear in-costume in Spider-Man/Wolverine itself (as, indeed, PAD had said above)

Posted by: Scavenger at November 19, 2004 02:23 PM

sigh..I remember reading this column when it came out...G-d I'm old.

I was facinated because Foreigner is one of my favorite characters.

I'm hoping Priest pops by, for his account. His website talks about his Spider-days from his POV,(http://phonogram.us/comics/adventures/spidey.htm)the only bit of this story is that he wasn't involved in the Ned Leeds descision. (It's a very sad story, frankly, but facinating)

Posted by: Richard Perez at November 19, 2004 02:28 PM

....."and Al Milgrom and Bob Harras made the Hulk gray".

Off topic, as far as Hobgoblin. So it was Al Milgrom and Harras, who wanted the return of the gray Hulk. Not that I had a problem with a gray Hulk. The Joe Fixit years were some of my favorite stories during your run, Mr. David. I have vague memories of reading a fanzine just before John Byrne started writing/drawing his first run. That he had planned on bringing back the gray Hulk. So I thought it was his idea at first. Just a question, did you ever think of having made Joe Fixit a separate individual, who had also been bombarded by gamma-rays? I sometimes think it would had been interesting to see a grey (Joe Fixit)Hulk and green (Savage/child-like) Hulk conforting each other outside of Banner's mind and co-existing in the Marvel Universe.

Posted by: Saul at November 19, 2004 02:41 PM

Somebody,

Well, that's why I prefaced with "If I'm remembering correctly". There was certainly someone, at some time, who was found dead in a Hobgoblin costume with someone speaking, in some foreign language, something to the effect of what I posted above. If it wasn't in the one-shot, then it was somewhere else.

Posted by: Wesley at November 19, 2004 02:44 PM

Man, I miss the Hobgoblin. All-time favorite Spider-Man villain ever. Better than Osborne, better than Brock.

Norman Osborne/Green Goblin is just a powerful whack-job who gets his jollies from tormenting Peter. I much prefer the Hobgoblin who only sees Spider-Man as an obstacle to his own machinations.

I can only hope that in the Spider-Man 3 movie, Harry will modify the Goblin equipment to become the Hobgoblin, and that will bring Hobby back to the comics.

Posted by: Scavenger at November 19, 2004 02:45 PM

Saul, the scene from Spider-Man/Wolverine (which just gut punched me when I read it...I can remember exactly where I was when I did...most memorable scene I've ever read in a comic...and I didn't know who Ned Leeds was...I wasn't a Spider-reader, got the crossover because of Wolverine, just knew that Ned was this friend of Peter's), is replicated in the Amazing Spider-Man issue where Ned is shown with the costume under his clothes.

Posted by: Saul at November 19, 2004 02:52 PM

Thanks, Scavenger. Maybe that's where I'm remembering it from.

Posted by: Andrew Holman at November 19, 2004 03:06 PM

Okay... So then who was Harry Osborn? Was he just Green Golbin II?

Posted by: Matt Adler at November 19, 2004 03:10 PM

Ummm... Why didn't anybody call Stern up and ASK him who Hobby was supposed to be?

Actually, they did, but they decided Kingsley was too lame a reveal. And I agree. Everytime I think about it, I'm like "Roderick who?" He was such an unimportant character in the Spider-Man mythos. Revealing him as the Hobgoblin would have had no impact whatsoever (and it was dumb that Marvel let Roger retcon it years later). Ned, on the other hand, was a longtime integral member of Peter's supporting cast, so the reveal and his death had a lot more impact.

Posted by: Matt Adler at November 19, 2004 03:11 PM

Okay... So then who was Harry Osborn? Was he just Green Golbin II?
Yep.

Posted by: Michael Rawdon at November 19, 2004 07:09 PM

I was reading ASM at the time the Hobgoblin stuff was going on. The funny thing is, I hadn't been reading it when it started - and in fact had never read the book regularly before, so I had no particular investment in the whole Hobgoblin thing, and therefore almost no memory of it.

The memory I have of that era of Spider-Man was an absolutely stunning story where Firelord comes to Earth looking for a grudge match against someone (Thor, Hercules, someone like that). Everyone else is somewhere else, so Spider-Man has to deal with him. Firelord pushes Spidey's moral outrage a little too far, and Spidey kicks the snot out of him, because, well, Spidey's tough, strong, and Firelord can't get in a decent shot while he's being pummeled because Spidey can dodge absolutely everything.

Oh, well, that and "The Death of Jean DeWolff" (which was a great story even though I'd never seen the character before or since).

Posted by: Emeka at November 19, 2004 07:37 PM

Mr David, I'm a little drunk and have decided to write 3 e-mails tonight. 1 to your good self, a second to the all-conquering mr Mark Waid, and the final to Brian Mother-humpin Micheal Bendis. Not to seem lazy, or ... I don't know (I'm an engineer not an author damnit), anyhew, all I wanted to say is I absolutely love you guys brother.
Your writing (of comics, i've not read any of your books i'm afraid), have brought me a whole lot of joy in my time. I've really fond memories of sharing copies of your Incredible Hulk and X-Factor comics with my friends, and as for Madrox and Fallen Angel. Simply awesome sir.
Please, Please, Please keep up the good work, and my very best regards to your ladies Caroline and Ariel and anyone else close to you I may have omitted. Do take care of yourselves and God bless you all.
E!

Posted by: John DiBello at November 19, 2004 08:04 PM

Man, this whole thread is one big honkin' spoiler. Thanks for ruining those issues of ASM before I could get to them, guys. Sheesh.

Naw, I'm just foolin' with ya (in my Bender voice). Personally I always thought old Hobbie was JJJ, myself. But then again, I thought the alien costume would develop a personality that fell in love with Spidey and become the new Gwen Stacey. Shows what I know.

Posted by: Jerome Maida at November 19, 2004 09:29 PM

Few Comments:
1.) I absolutely would like to view the Behind the Scenes column about The Death of Jean DeWolff. Except for Gwen, I had the most attachment to DeWolff of any Spider-Man character. I thought she was so tough, smart, cool and even sexy. I remember her using a vehicle she was driving to buy Spider-man some time in the best Doc Ock/Spidey fight EVER in "Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man" (Vol. 1) #72-79 and her tender, understanding side when it looked like the Black Cat had drowned to death in "Amazing Spider-Man" (Vol.1) #227 - during this storyline t also was first hinted that she might have some feelings for him.
Spider-Man with a strong, tough police officer would be far more interesting than his current relationship with Mary Jane, I think.

2.)The Roderick Kingsley Hobgoblin revelation has to be the most anti-climactic, disappointing and deflating "reveal" to a storyline - especially a mystery - that I have ever seen

3.) I would much rather have the original Hobgoblin still around than the ridiculous Norman is nack from the dead/ Norman is a Kingpin wannabe/ Norman is the father of Gwen Stacy's children nonsense that we have seen the past decade.

Posted by: Roger Tang at November 19, 2004 09:34 PM

Spider-Man with a strong, tough police officer would be far more interesting than his current relationship with Mary Jane, I think.

A much OLDER, tough police officer...had to be at least 10-15 years older than Mr. Parker....That would have been...interesting...

2.)The Roderick Kingsley Hobgoblin revelation has to be the most anti-climactic, disappointing and deflating "reveal" to a storyline - especially a mystery - that I have ever seen

The way it was handled, yeah...but with seven or eight different hands over three or four editors, how could it be anything but?

Posted by: Alex L. at November 19, 2004 10:28 PM

Hi, for those who want to learn everything about hobgoblin pls look and read here:

http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SquanderedLegacy/SquanderedLegacyTitle.html

Posted by: John Simons at November 20, 2004 02:52 AM

I'm surprised that everyone was so sure Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds, to the point where Peter and Priest couldn't figure out who else they could possibly make him. I vividly remember following the Hobgoblin mystery when I was in high school and the comics seemed to be offering up not one but two main suspects: Ned Leeds and Lance Bannon. Personally I was hoping for Bannon because I thought Leeds would be too obvious and besides hadn't previously been depicted as ruthless enough to do some of the things Hobby had done. Once Leeds was out of the picture, I don't understand why the creators didn't make the choice of Bannon as the villain.

Posted by: Deano at November 20, 2004 10:41 AM

In my youth trying to be master Detective i was sure it was Ned Leeds.then they give me Roderick
Kingsley???Who???WHAT THE ????Glad to know i was right the first time.This was the most interesting storyline that i remember at the time.
Only one even close is the recent IDENTITY CRISIS series.I was angry and disgusted at first (I always liked Ralph and Sue)but am utterly fascinated with finding out who the killer is.
What happened to the Foreigner ?The Gray Hulk absolutely kicked ass by the way.While more a Buscema/Mantlo HULK SMASH guy ,I loved Mr Fixit

Posted by: Deano at November 20, 2004 10:42 AM

For the record Owsley was the one who killed of Jean DeWolf ?!...Oh he is so on my list now!!

Posted by: Jae at November 20, 2004 01:16 PM

Fascinating story. For me Peter David did the best Hulk overall. I'm more of a Buscema/Stern HULK SMASH guy.

Posted by: Seamus at November 20, 2004 05:46 PM

That was pretty brilliant I think, great story... Makes me want to go out and buy Spidey comics again =/

Posted by: Jerome Maida at November 20, 2004 06:28 PM

I wrote:
"Spider-Man with a strong, tough police officer would be far more interesting than his current relationship with Mary Jane, I think."

Roger Tang wrote:
"A much OLDER, tough police officer...had to be at least 10-15 years older than Mr. Parker...That would have been...interesting."

Yes, it would have been. There would have been a lot to play with there. I believe it was Stern who first brought up the idea of DeWolff having feelings for Spidey. I, for one, have no problem with the age difference (which i didn't remember as being that much to begin with). I'm in my early 30s and still am attracted to women in their mid-40s. I'm also attracted to women in their mid-20s. Though there generally are some "issues' in a May-December relationship, there are always issues.
I just have a thing for strong women. Which is why I also thought it would be cool to see Spidey hook up with Silver Sable, at least for a while.
mary jane just has never struck me as an especially strong character. JMS has made her moreso than anyone else, I think. But with the whole Norman Osborn/Gwen Stacy's kids fiasco, i feel he is losing it.

RE: Hobgoblin Reveal
"The way it was handled, yeah...but wth seven or eight different hands over three or four editors, how could it be anything but?"

Because the fact that Stern planned it to be Kingsley from the start is what really sucked. he did that on his own. In fact, if he had stayed on "Amazing" and made the revelation during his run, while the mystery was hotter than "Long Halloween", "Identity Crisis" or anything else, and he came out with the revelation then - rather than years later in a stand alone miniseries - i think there would have been even more backlash.

Posted by: Ghoswtise at November 21, 2004 06:13 PM

Please add a vote to know the reasons why Jean DeWolff was killed, mister PAD. She's the only person for whom Sin-Eater didn't give a clear motive - although I suspect being a woman in a position of authority was sufficient for Carter.

But I liked her, damnit. Her first appearances in the first Wraith arc had her very badly written, but after that she was really cool.

And I liked her style.

Posted by: Roger Tang at November 21, 2004 08:07 PM

Yes, it would have been. There would have been a lot to play with there. I believe it was Stern who first brought up the idea of DeWolff having feelings for Spidey. I, for one, have no problem with the age difference (which i didn't remember as being that much to begin with).

Well Mr. Parker would be no later than early 20s then. And you don't get to be in a respected police captain unless you're at least you're in your mid 30s.

It'd squick fanboys, but I'd think Peter would get over it. After all...think Jane Seymour....Sela Ward....

Posted by: Cory!!Strode at November 22, 2004 01:43 AM

The Roderick Kingsley actually works if you were reading Stern's Spider-Man stories back then. He had used the character in Peter Parker, fit the profile and all of the clues Stern left led to that being the Hobgoblin. It's too bad that when he left, no one used the character, so that when Stern came back and did his finale, most people reading Spider-Man had no clue who the character was.

Posted by: dark schneider at November 22, 2004 07:11 AM

>>It's too bad that when he left, no one used the character,

Or maybe not, if no one used Kingsley, then Stern could do his plans for him without any problems

Posted by: Al Lopez at November 22, 2004 11:34 AM

"Please add a vote to know the reasons why Jean DeWolff was killed, mister PAD. She's the only person for whom Sin-Eater didn't give a clear motive - although I suspect being a woman in a position of authority was sufficient for Carter."

This was revealed in PAD's great sequel to the Sin-Eater storyline in Spectacular Spider-Man 134-136. Stan Carter and Jean DeWolff were lovers, and he killed her first so that he could freely go about his mission of killing sinners, without being encumbered by feelings of love or compassion. I just dug these issues out from my collection, they're actually a really great read. Incidentally, the only thing that still bugs me to this day is that PAD established in these issues that Electro could negate Spider-Man's ability to stick to walls by "absorbing static electricity", yet to my knowledge no one ever followed up on this. What a great power that was, it's a shame it was never used again.

Posted by: Jerome Maida at November 23, 2004 12:43 AM

Roger Tang,
"It'd squick fanboys, but I'd think Peter would get over it.

Peter would definitely get over it. Hell, he would probably be able to pole vault at times:)

"After all...think Jane Seymour...Sela Ward"
Ohmygod! I was actualy going to use Sela Ward as an example! Honest!
Do you realize she wanted to be a Bond Girl ("I believe it was for the one Denise Richards wound up being in)and the producers told her she would be perfect...if she was the sela Ward of 20 years ago! After seeing Richards' "performance" and those phone ads of her doing stunts in a leather outfit...well, the producers had to be out of their damn minds!!

Posted by: Jerome Maida at November 23, 2004 12:49 AM

I was referring to Ward being in the phone ads, obviously

Posted by: Charles K at November 23, 2004 12:47 PM

"After all...think Jane Seymour...Sela Ward"

Well, ok, but only because you asked.

Mmmm.....

Posted by: dhole at November 23, 2004 12:59 PM


I wasn't a regular ASM reader but followed the Hobgoblin mystery whenever it popped up. Between that and "Under Siege" over in Avengers, those were the good old days at Marvel.

Can anyone tell me when and how the Demogoblin came into being? I picked up one of his appearances in the McFarlane Spider-series and he just seemed kind of stupid. Was that still Jason Macendale? What were they thinking?

Posted by: Jerome Maida at November 24, 2004 08:14 PM

Charles K,
"After all...think Jane Seymour...Sela Ward"
"Well OK, but only because you asked.Mmmmm..."
Mmmm, indeed!

Posted by: Roger Tang at November 24, 2004 09:43 PM

"After all...think Jane Seymour...Sela Ward"
Ohmygod! I was actualy going to use Sela Ward as an example! Honest!
Do you realize she wanted to be a Bond Girl

I have a hard time thinking of Sela Ward as a Bond Girl.

A Bond Woman, on the other hand....

(Hm, Sela Ward as Jean De Wolff. Happy thought, I think....)

Posted by: Matt Adler at November 24, 2004 09:50 PM

Can anyone tell me when and how the Demogoblin came into being? I picked up one of his appearances in the McFarlane Spider-series and he just seemed kind of stupid. Was that still Jason Macendale?

During Inferno, Macendale bargained with the demon N'Astirh for extra power, and he granted it by fusing Macendale with a demonic essence. This drove Macendale mad, and the demon eventually split off from him and became a separate entity in Web of Spider-Man #86, cover dated March 1992.

So any appearances of the Demogoblin before that (including in the McFarlane book) are Macendale with the demon inside, while any appearances after (like in Maximum Carnage) are the demon as a separate entity.

Posted by: Jerome Maida at November 26, 2004 12:33 AM

Roger,
Okay! Bond Woman,you got me. (Boy, that's a line I'd love to say to Sela Ward in a movie, "Bond Woman, you've got me!:)
Of course, this was the problem. She was considered too old to be a "traditional" Bond Girl.
As for your suggestion...Sela Ward...Jean DeWolff...handcuffs...
I REALLY have to go now..and, uh, e-mail Avi Arad:)

Posted by: Luke K. Walsh at November 27, 2004 02:56 PM

While I didn't read every issue of the Hobgoblin plotline (unfortunately), he was a favorite character of mine. The trilogy in ASM #249-251 (in which Harry Osborn learns [and actually remembers] that his father was the Green Goblin, thanks to the Hobgoblin, by the way) is still one of my favorite stories.

I didn't actually learn the Hobgobin's "true" identity until I read his entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Book of the Dead. [Deluxe Edition, issue #17.] I was somewhat disappointed - by the death of the character, of course, but also by his other identity, which seemed somewhat hard to reconcile (as pointed out above, blowing up his informant, before he had even assumed the Hobgoblin identity, is the most glaring example ). This article - in addition to being as interesting insight into the creative process - does show that PAD made some pretty creative lemonaide out of the various ingredients given him.

That said, I do want to defend "Hobgoblin Lives". I was very excited to read that this series was coming out, and glad that Stern was returning to solve the mystery he had created all those years ago (and return the true Hobgoblin to comics). I was very absorbed by the new Hobgoblin trilogy and satisfied by its conclusion. Stern managed to explain Ned Leeds' behavior, as a brainwashed, surrogate Hobgoblin (and not the first we'd seen the Hobgoblin use, either); gave us several plausible suspects over the course of the limited series; and gave us a civilian identity, that of Roderick Kingsley, which was more consistent with the man in the fright mask. I agree with what Stern is said to have felt above, that someone too close to Peter Parker being the Hobgoblin (especially with Green's identity) could have felt implausable - too soap opera-ish. (Although Jonah Jamison did seem like an interesting possibility ... but again - he wouldn't blow people up [or blackmail himself: the Hobgoblin also threatened to reveal JJJ created the Scorpion - leading Jonah to confess on the front page of the Bugle and resign as editor-in-chief, leading to Joe Robertson's promotion. Big things happened in that classic trilogy ....]; and he probably wouldn't be able to - or bother to - disguise his speech patterns, either :) ....) I'm sure that Stern would have had Kingsley around enough if he had remained on the title to make him a viable suspect. In fact, one of Hobgoblin's blackmail victims in ASM #249-250 was - Roderick Kingsley?! Looking back after the ultimate reveal in Hobgoblin Lives - and at Kingsley's frightened behavior, and wishing that his brother was in town - we can see that it was Daniel Kingsley in these issues. So Stern had already begun to set up the idea (paid off in "Lives") that the Kinglseys would disguise themselves as each other, providing an alibi for Roderick while in costume (though it's apparent Daniel didn't know the truth of why he was covering for his brother at that point).


So anyway - this reader, at least, thinks that several interesting stories were borne out of this whole thing, and stories wich ultimately made sense in continuity (without Captain Marvel even having to destroy and re-create the universe).

Posted by: Ghostwise at December 7, 2004 07:58 AM

>This was revealed in PAD's great sequel to the Sin-Eater storyline in Spectacular Spider-Man 134-136


Thanks Al.