PeterDavid.net

Heh...it's easier to take pleasure in it when you're also taking the paycheck, I imagine.

I don't blame you.

"...everything that was wrong with my writing"

And yet they keep hiring you (Of course I'm glad they do). Sounds like Marvel is of the "the beatings will continue until morale improves" school of thought. They want you to work for them because you make them money, then they treat you like crap.

Unfortunately, about the best you can do is to take pleasure in the fact that you were right.

I'm going to ask what may be a silly question: If the uppitty ups at Marvel really hated the idea of letting you use Spider-Man 2099, why did they approve the story? Surely these plots are written well in advance so they could have nixed it back when the idea first came up, right? So... what gives? Are they just jerks?

Also... I'll admit that I missed that storyline. I had stopped reading the title because the characters just didn't interest me (no fault of your writer, of course, I just didn't like the characters), but had Marvel publiced a guest shot by Spider-Man 2099, I would've picked that up in a heartbeat. I hope my saying so isn't akin to pouring salt in your wounds. But I always enjoyed the 2099 titles (some of them anyway), and your Spider-Man 2099 title in particular.

What issue of Captain Marvel was that?

Your Supergirl story made more sense given the set-up that Superman was supposed to be the only Kryptonian survivor (of the mainstream universe anyway)---I think it's just they wanted a 21-yr-old S-Girl to breathe heavy about--I mean look at her new outfit. No SGirl book survived longer than 2 yrs til yours so all these decisions make no sense to me. And while I like Fallen Angel, I wanted Linda back in the 'S'--I'm only gonna read Fallen Angel and Doom Patrol from now on (can I actually talk about a Byrne book here or is there a rule about that?--he's ignoring Grant Morrison's storylines)

I see it more as "It's been a few years since we put this stuff on a cover, better protect that copyright."

But that's just my opinion...and since it's just a series of one-shots, I don't expect any follow up to them, kind of like DC's "Tangent" line a few years ago.

"But I always enjoyed the 2099 titles (some of them anyway), and your Spider-Man 2099 title in particular."

I must admit, I did too...!

Lou

I have a real affection for Spider-Man 2099. It came out at a time when I was just starting to diversify my reading.

It'll always have a place in my heart as the comic book title in which the first letter I've ever gotten published appeared. I think my letter was published in issue 36 or thereabouts, right around the introduction of Venom 2099.

You know, come to think of it, I've only ever had three letters published in comic books, and two of those letters were praise for PAD's work. (One in Supergirl, the other in Spidey 2099.) I'm just not much of a letter-hack.

Incidentally, the other letter was early in Dan Jurgens' Sensational Spider-Man run, which was the "Ben Reilly is the real Peter Parker and is now Spider-Man" period. I was filled with praise on that one, too, giving me pause to ask what the heck I was on then. :-) Ah, probably just wanted to see my name in print, but part of me did like the freshness of that run.

I seem to have wandered off topic. :-) Good times. Good times.

Marvel cannot seem to come up with new ideas for titles these days, so they dig up old ones to try 'em again.

She-Hulk,Iron Fist, Alpha Flight to name a few. I only wish they'd bring back Cloak & Dagger!

At least "Witches" is mostly a new idea for them, though it'll likely be more of 'Dr' Strange and his hot girl sidekicks'...OR maybe it'll be 'Dr. Strange's Angels'...?

But it's nice to see doc in a comic again, he is Sorcerer Supreme of the Earth, right? Or of this dimension? That should rate him a friggin' monthly book, IMO.

I've said enough for now...I think

Dave

I ve said this before Peter, and please believe i mean it as a compliment; You're greatest strength as a comic book writer is taking a boring, seldom-used character (supergirl, captain marvel, and the other-wise second strings mutants in xfactor) or a one-trick pony (hulk) and making it a wonderful and exciting read through humor,plot and a strong supporting cast.

The catch-22 of that is that people who dont read the comics cause of a pre-determined bias are likely never to change their mind, part of the reason the new and VERY good She-hulk series wont last long.

Kind of like Clinton bashing the Reagan and Bush policies to get elected and then turning around and using their conservative policies during his own term.

I'm wondering -

"But Marvel roundly and publicly excoriated my return to the 2099 Universe in "Captain Marvel" as an example of everything that was wrong with my writing"

What the hell kind of idiot promotes their product by saying that it's no good & the person preducing it isn't up to the job? (Of course, I'm referring to Marvel, not PAD)

Is Marvel being run from Bizarro world?
"We am bashing product so people am buying it more"

Tom Brevoort said a return of you to Spider-Man 2099 is possible if these sell well. Not so?

Not that I disagree with what you said, because you're very much right in the Big Two's ability to get it wrong SO many times, but, even though I jumped for joy when I heard the 2099 Universe is coming back, it's not true. 2099 in name only. Entirely new mythology, from recent interviews. Which is an incredibly missed oportunity.

"If you're going to be worried every time the universe doesn't make sense, you're going to be worried every moment of every day for the rest of your natural life."- G'Kar

fwiw, there's a lot of folks remembering Spidey 2099 very fondly over at newsarama...

http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14528

Peter ...have you ever thought of or been approached for a Vertigo or MAX title? I mean those books are full of creator freedom, right? You could start anything you wanted...like The Adventures of PAD....or something.
I just think that you could really rip up the numbers in that market. Your stuff always makes me think so I believe in a title that gives you no holds barred, you could make people like me think for days...

So you gonna do "Superboy 2099" for DC?

Heck, I'd setttle for for a PAD-written "Supergirl One Million" limited series, particularly if she'd find her mom. :)

KET

Hmmm...this is what really gets me, writers always get the short end of the stick when a title doesn´t do well. Never either the botched or under marketing of a title and the superb and over marketing of crap or so-so titles. Lets look at PAD´s excellent past record..Hulk( an extremely stupid character by the time you came onto the book), Supergirl, Dreadstar ( which I felt was better than when Starlin himself was doing it), Fallen Angel, Captain Marvel ( you made Rick Jones 3D instead of 1D as he had been for his entire existence, oh I could go on. But hey! The writer is always wrong, even when he is right.Live with it! :o)

"Kind of like Clinton bashing the Reagan and Bush policies to get elected and then turning around and using their conservative policies during his own term."

Y'know, the next time an army of dickweeds claims I make this forum too political, I want this post--shoved into a totally comics thread--remembered.

PAD

"Peter ...have you ever thought of or been approached for a Vertigo or MAX title? I mean those books are full of creator freedom, right? You could start anything you wanted...like The Adventures of PAD....or something.
I just think that you could really rip up the numbers in that market."

I'm not sure what you mean by "Rip up the numbers." If you mean get big sales, there's no way. I mean, I appreciate the sentiment,but the numbers are pretty consistent: No one "rips up the numbers" on anything wholly original or novel or innovative. Safe and familiar is rewarded with big sales; wildly different or innovative just gets you low numbers. Even the most popular Vertigo books still way undersold "Supergirl" and "Young Justice" (which were, of course, canceled).

PAD

hmmm.... 'army of dickweeds'.

i believe that was the working title for a particular sam raimi film...but test audiences found the ensuing visual to be unsettling (at best).

:)

Charlie:

>>hmmm.... 'army of dickweeds'.

>i believe that was the working title for a particular sam raimi film...but test audiences found the ensuing visual to be unsettling (at best).

:)

I just saw Bubba Ho-Tep with Bruce Campbell. A truly bizarre, wacky, surreal, independent film that is now on DVD. I'd recommend it for any Campbell fans or people who enjoy the skewed type of vision that Raimi has shown in some of his creative endevours.

Fred

How much did you know about it ahead of time, or were you informed along with everyone else? Also did they ask you for any advice, comments, setting questions, for the revisited 2099? Not wanting to stir up to many hornet's next but I am curious.

Peter,
I hate to break it to ya, but the 2099 titles were about as well received in CT as "The New Universe." Spidey2099 was the only stand out because of the writing and the great art by Rick Leonardi. Marvel's new 2099 one shots will fail as usual, As much as I would love to see you return to do more Spidey 2099 stories, you an I both know it won't ever happen.
The fact that you were right, and as usual, they were wrong seems to be an ongoing thing with the Big 2, and it isn't just you. I watched people drop the X-Books for the last 10 years, and even more drop Green Lantern in the same time frame......Ut Oh, time to call Chris Claremont, and figure out a way to bring Hal Jordan back.
Give it a year or two you'll be back on Hulk,
Aquaman,and Supergirl when the boneheads realize how badly they messed up a good thing.
Until then, we'll read your X-Factor reunion in Madrox, Fallen Angel, Spy Boy, and patiently whittle away the time til your next novel sees print. We'll take what we can get until the powers that be wake the hell up.
Thanks for years of entertainment,
Pete Chuka
Bridgeport, CT

"No one "rips up the numbers" on anything wholly original or novel or innovative. Safe and familiar is rewarded with big sales; wildly different or innovative just gets you low numbers."

...although I always find it ironic how both 'Big Two' publishers will twist the hype to this creative BACKPEDALLING, to make belive it's a sudden innovation:

"It's the 2099 universe, only it's NOT the old one you knew!"

"It's Kara Zor-El, only she's NOT the old one you knew!"

KET

Spider-Man 2099 was my favorite of the 2099 books.

Favorite issue of Spider-Man 2099 was where Miguel had to get his mother away from the Thorites, and succeeded in confusing the heck out of them with aplomb.

I was ROTFLMAO over that particular issue.

Thanks, Peter

Steve Chung

argh! there's a Spidey 2099 appearance in Captain Marvel? What issue? I only ask because this weekend through the "magic of the internet" *coughcough* I read all 46 issues of Spidey 2099 in about 2 days straight. So I'm so up for seeing how Captain Marvel incorporated the 2099 verse into it.

just a note to PAD on Spidey 2099 (which I had never read before) - Bravo. My favourite issue was the one where the Spider-Man accolyte threw himself off a building waiting to be saved by Spider-Man. That was pretty great stuff. I wonder, though, did you always intend for the guy to go SPLAT or did you want to have him saved by the Net Prophet in the end?

Marvel cannot seem to come up with new ideas for titles these days, so they dig up old ones to try 'em again.

She-Hulk,Iron Fist, Alpha Flight to name a few
-----------------------

I'm enjoying the new She-Hulk series. "Supernatural Law" with Superheros. This month Spider-Man sues the Daily Bugle for libel.

David

I loved "Spider-Man 2099". In fact, I loved the whole 2099 universe.

Unfortunately, I stopped buying comics a few months after Fantastic Four 2099 started.

Off topic but...

How did FF 2099 work out anyway? Did the FF make their way back to the present? How did they get to the future? Did they ever encounter Doom in 2099? Has it ever been mentioned in mainline FF continuity?

There's a Spidey 2099 appearance in Captain Marvel? What issue?

Vol. 3, #27-30, the "Time Flies" storyline.

Corey

I'm reminded of the stand-up comic in the 80s who, commenting on the then popular Don Johnson look (stubble and a t-shirt under a suitcoat), said "My uncle used to sit around on the stoop in a t-shirt with three days growth of beard, and we thought he was just a slob. Now I know he was a man ahead of his time."

What exactly is a dickweed?

You don't wanna know.

Maybe if you payed attention you'd have noticed this was a ressurection of only the 2099 name, not the actual characters. I would have to agree with the current Marvel regime that those characters were pretty worthless, I read the first 20 or so issues of Spider-Man 2099, can't remember a damned thing about the character except his name. Not what I would call memorable.

This one at least has something interesting to offer, Kirkman's really got me into Invicible and if Mutant 2099 is half as good as Invicible it'll be 10 times better than any of the original 2099 books, no matter how much the net-fanboys loved that line of junk.

I'm sorry, I felt really betrayed by all those 2099 books I bought. The future was so generic and lame. Oooh, evil corporations control the future! Like I haven't seen that a billion times in sci-fi since Blade Runner(my first exposure to the cliche, sue me). When you base an entire line on one cliche, it's bound to suck. The future of the first Marvel 2099 was utterly without redemption IMO. It could've been really fun. Instead it beat you over the head with lame grim n' gritty BS. Vulture's a cannibal! Oohh!

Hopefully this vision of the year 2099 won't suck.

Marvel current crew has made mistakes, using Mark Millar on anything is a mistake, hiring Bryan Hitch to do a monthly comic is a mistake, continuing the monthly pamphlet format is a mistake, but this doesn't look to be one of them.

JAM,

Mark Millar, a mistake? I'll grant you Brian Hitch on a monthly is a mistake, but Millar, no way!!! You may not like his style, that's your choice, but the guy is a proved hit & sells very well. when millar writes, marvel makes money, so the more titles you give him the more $$$ marvel makes. that is never a mistake.

I agree the 2099 line did suck, but that isn't really the writers fault. just like the new universe, 2099 was an editorial concept & the writers have to work w/in the parameters.

Joe

Face it, Mr. D. That's the reason why you write novels, short stories, even gaming articles (although I haven't yet found that D&D version of Sir Apropos of Nothing). Each kind of writing gets its own particular kind of abuse.

By doing different kinds of writing, you're varying the places of your psyche where your employers abuse you. That gives each part of your soul a chance to heal. If you only worked in comics, f'rinstance, the top of your head would be dented in by now. By getting abused by film producers, book publishers and the like, your head has a chance to regain its normal shape.

While i do know what a dickweed is i have no idea what certain online shorthand for want of a better word means.ROLFMAO,IMO,LMAO all sound or look sound i would make puking.Why the shorthand????
Back to the point,that does seem like a wicked ballslap to give some one a hard time for something thats "wrong " with their writing and then bring back the same concept.Dont read the Batman/Superman comic but it seems kinda silly
to cancel(kill ?)Supergirl then bring her back as a Britney/Jessica simpson lookalike to get the drooling fanboy qoutient.Or better yet bring in John(im good just ask me) Byrne ,and Chris(never met a drawn out solliqouy and reference to Capt.Britain i didnt like )Claremont to a book cause they sell LOTSA COMICS!!!!
Realize economics come into play but damn ,how can you continue to bitchslap creativity and expect talented folks to stick around??

Uhhhhh... D&D version of Sir Apropos? Teach me, Obi-Wan, of what you speak.

Uhhhhh... D&D version of Sir Apropos? Teach me, Obi-Wan, of what you speak.

Sorry for the double post. My computer farted.

"I only ask because this weekend through the "magic of the internet" *coughcough* I read all 46 issues of Spidey 2099 in about 2 days straight."

I would say its impossible to Rip up the numbers with that kinda crap...support your favorite Artist/Creator!!! Doesn't matter if its music or books or movies...buy it.

I was sooo jazzed when i first heard that 2099 might be coming back... but now i'm disappointed. This line no longer uses any of the established characters and instead creates a whole new line sharing only the name. How well will this work? who knows. I'm not sure i want this 2099. I may not have liked the entirety of the old 2099 but it had a style and contained feel to it... I'll look at these in the shop and see how i feel about em.

2099 was a great concept, and PAD's Spider-Man 2099 was the best of the books. It got ruined at the end by management (they fired the editor who started it all, Joey Cavalieri, and new writers took over and wrecked it).

PAD, seriously, if they asked you to come back to 2099, would you do it? And would you only want to do the "classic" 2099 (seeing as how this new version is a totally different continuity)? I really, really want to know, please answer.

Oh, sorry, don't get me wrong...the new She-Hulk comic is fantastic! It's just that the House of Ideas likes to recycle their old ideas...

Dave

:::::::::::::::

Marvel cannot seem to come up with new ideas for titles these days, so they dig up old ones to try 'em again.

She-Hulk,Iron Fist, Alpha Flight to name a few
-----------------------

I'm enjoying the new She-Hulk series. "Supernatural Law" with Superheros. This month Spider-Man sues the Daily Bugle for libel.

David

This is just another Right Wing conspiracy aimed at PAD! ;)

Seriously, I was a little dispointed not to see PAD's name attatched to any of these titles. I would have thought he'd be the first person Marvel would have contacted in regards to a tribute to 2099. Oh well, it's Marvel and a lot they do doesn't make much sense.

Oh, for heaven's sakes. Maybe if everybody actually checked out the newsarama.com story on this at least a few of you would realize:

A.) It's a totally different concept. Even Punisher 2099 isn't the Punisher 2099 we knew
B.) It is all being written by a writer a lot of people seem glad to get the assignment
C.) Feelings are actually split on whether the original 2099 universe was actually any good, so it's not like Joe Quesada suddenly shouted out, "Here's a beloved idea that is going to outsell "Astonishing X-Men" and "Superman". It's an original conceot tied into the Marvel Knights line
D) Quite a few people - a lot, actually - cite PAD's "Spider-Man 2099" as a title they think should be collected in TPB to coincide with the new 2099 release in September.
So why not, I don't know, go to newsarama.com and agree with them (or in your case thank them PAD) instead of just having another "let's bash Marvel and DC" session.

With all the talk about all the other stuff you write no one seems to be commenting on "Soulsearchers" from Claypool. How long have you been with them, a million years? Though small, they, at least, appreciate your talent. Never thought Bridget and Baraka would tie the knot. Glad to see I was wrong.

I seem to recall JQ saying (in response to your letter) that 2099 wasn't a big deal because it was "defunct," (hence the reason why the return of the 2099 characters/settings in CM wasn't advertised well). Something like that. And, well, he did have a point there. You probably would have had better luck using characters from Age of Apocalypse, (which is also technically "defunct," even though some of those characters keep cropping up in places). Why they've decided to revive 2099 now is anybody's guess. Superheroes in the present, superheroes in the future, it's all the same to me. DC and Marvel must drive themselves batty (and spidery, respectively) trying to come up with ways to keep superheroes interesting. It's not easy, I'd wager. Heck, I love superheroes, and I've been losing interest lately. Maybe I'm getting old.

I think the reason I've become a PAD fan is because he's not afraid to allow (and sometimes force) a character to change. Who could have predicted all the changes Hulk went through? Aquaman losing his hand? Supergirl sprouting fiery wings? Captain Marvel going insane? Any of Young Justice? And the best part is that PAD *sticks* to these ideas, lets them run their course. It makes me feel like the characters are on a journey. Honestly, if a character's not going anywhere, why the hell should I come along for the ride, only to know where we'd end up, (which would be right where we began)?

With these specials coming out, Marvel seems to be testing the waters for a potential audience. If it's going to be successful, (i.e., good enough to launch a couple ongoing titles), it will probably be due to the younger readers who haven't been exposed to the older material, rather than the older readers who allowed 2099 to die off to begin with. (Perhaps this is a good opportunity to publish previous 2099 material in trades?)

It is kind of suspect that, two years after declaring that 2099 wasn't worth advertising, here they are making a big event out of it. (And I actually find it annoying that DC is doing the Kara Zor-El thing pretty much right after PAD's. And just how many Supergirls currently exist in the DC Universe anyhow?)

PAD, got any other ideas that Marvel shot down? I doubt we've seen the last of them.

Scott,
I understand what you're saying. I really do. PAD always has a plan with his books, and it is a wonderful journey more often than not. And, obviously the less "iconic" characters are able to be played with nore, which meand PAD can do more with them and REALLY tell the stories he wants to tell.
But unfortunately, right now, when comic readership is still relatively low, it is hard for ANYTHING new to break through. marvel hyped the hell out of their Tsunami line, and even though "Runaways" and "Sentinel" in particular were well-received by critics, were talked about in WIZARD and chatted up endlessly by Joe Quesada, all of the titles from that line are gone, EXCEPT a Spider-related book"Venom", and two X-related books "Emma Frost" and "Mystique". There were abunch of other titles like "Namor" and "Human Torch" ,and they tried to do some with a manga style. Yet the only ones that made it to now are the latest offerings in marvel's two major tent poles. So marketing deoesn't always help. It's difficult to get retailers and fans to change their habits.
THAT is why I would desperately LOVE to see PAD reintroduce himself to fans who have jumped on board the last few years and have no idea who he is. Hopefully "Hulk" will do it. I feel when, not if,he gets another "blockbuster hit" book on his hands, sales on his other projects will rise as a result.

Peter:
Take heart.
The current blonde in Superman/Batman has not "officially" been proven to be the TRUE pre-crisis Kara. Darkseid is wanting her for some reason, and even Wonder Woman doubts her identity.
And before anyone complains, the last S/B I read is #9. I personally have not seen 10 yet.

Ah 2099... I remember how awful the art got on Doom 2099... and only because an issue or two crossed over with Fantastic Four, a title I buy rabidly.

Only bought FF 2099 and the series and oneshot that wrapped it up, and then only because I'm rabidly FF nuts. Afraid to say that the rest really didn't interest me. Tried Punisher. Shrugged.

Guess the world was just a little too... dark and removed from what I could identify with. Which is why I was glad that the FF was essentially the regular team... sort of. And I got SO pissed when Thing died... Couldn't believe it when the truth behind that was revealed in Manifest Destiny. Made SO much sense.

I suppose my fondest memory of 2099 comes from the novel "X-Men/Spider-Man: Time's Arrow Book 3: Future", during which Storm, Beast, and Gambit thoroughly trash X-Men 2099 and consider them rank amateurs. It was funny as hell.

Lee, could you PLEASE POST SPOILER WARNINGS for those of us who haven't yet read their pile of comics that accumulated when they were on vacation???!!!

Sorry. Didn't mean to shout. :-)

Peter David: But Marvel roundly and publicly excoriated my return to the 2099 Universe in "Captain Marvel" as an example of everything that was wrong with my writing…
Luigi Novi: When did Marvel do this?

Donald W. Pfeffer: What issue of Captain Marvel was that?
Luigi Novi: Issues 27-30 of the previous series.

Chris: can I actually talk about a Byrne book here or is there a rule about that?
Luigi Novi: Of course not. Byrne’s the one who practices censorship on his site, not Peter.

Not Sure: What exactly is a dickweed?
Luigi Novi: Something horny botanists use as a marital aide?

Jam: hiring Bryan Hitch to do a monthly comic is a mistake…

JoeV: I'll grant you Brian Hitch on a monthly is a mistake…
Luigi Novi: Why? Because of your aesthetic reaction, or his recent lateness with Ultimates?

Jam: continuing the monthly pamphlet format is a mistake…
Luigi Novi: Why? It’s not like the industry would survive on graphic novels alone. My feeling is that they should find a way to simply make those pamphlets cheaper.

Has anyone given thought that the reason that Supergirl's appearance in "Superman&Batman" are selling so much is (here's a shocker)MICHAEL TURNER. Combine it w/ Jeph Loeb, who right now is probably the #2 guy after Bendis, & well, it sells. And sells well. Plus "Wizard" gave the book tons of publicity & exposure.

I've always believed that for titles to sell well there are 3 ingrediants needed. #1 super hero. As much as we like sophisticated titles like 100 bullets, sandman, powers, fallen angel & the like, people crave super heroes. batman, superman, spiderman, wolverine, etc. we love them & are addicted to them. #2 a good writer. #3 a great artist. if you remove any of the 3, sales will suffer. now there are the exceptions to the rule once in a while, but overall, it's true. Look @ the top 25 sellers. But the key to any comicbook is the art. the art carries the title, which is why MICHAEL TURNER is kicking ass, JIM LEE is kicking ass. A book with a great writer withe a mediocre or even a good artist will be outsold by a book w/a good or mediocre writer w/a great artist. Again, there are a few exceptions.

Bendis + Bagley + Spiderman= SUPER SALES
Bendis + Oeming - Spiderman= lower sales

Azzarello + Jim Lee + Superman= SUPER SALES
Azzarello + Ed Risso - Superman= lower sales

team up any writer w/ lee, or turner, or the kubert bros ,alex ross or any top 10 artist & the title will sell better then an alan moore, or peter david, or grant morrison or any top 10 writer.
Warren Ellis write a damn good planetary w/ John Cassaday & no one gives a shit. Ellis does Ultimate Fantastic Four & now everyone cares. John Cassaday does X-Men (w/ wheadon)& now he's the next big thing.
I think part of the problem with Peter's work is not so much the quality of his writing, but rather the artists attached to the project. In HULK, PAD had Todd McFarlane & is replaced by Jeff Purves who is no Todd McFarlane. He then gets Dale Keown & is replaced by Gary Frank. Now i like Gary Frank, & he's very clean & detailed & i read supreme power, & have midnight nation as well as his supergirl run, but he is no Dale Keown. Sorry, no contest. then Frank is replaced by Liam Sharpe who wqas more of a Simon Bisley rip off, Angel Medina, who at that time was a bit of an unknown. Luckily the run ended w/ 2 very good artist in Deodato jr & Adam Kubert.

X factor had Larry Stroman, but really, I didn't get him a lot. You get Joe Quesada, but BOOM, your off the book.

Captain Marvel has Criss Cross, but then no one else.

I read your stuff, because I'm older, wiser & prefer quality writing to empty pop art. i read all your stuff because i'm loyal to your work & actually enjoy it.

but if you want to be mainstream & a top ten guy & sells thousands of books a month you are going to have to team up with a great artist, because ultimatley, people want to look @ the pretty pictures. I would love if you wrote FIRESTORM w/ criss, or if you & Adam Kubert had teamed up for Capt Marvel. Fallen Angel w/ Cassaday.

There are artist out there w/out a mainstream book currently. Carlos Pacheco is out there, Adam Pollina, Phil Jimenez, & so many others. You team up with them & you got a top seller.

Joe V.

But unfortunately, right now, when comic readership is still relatively low, it is hard for ANYTHING new to break through. marvel hyped the hell out of their Tsunami line, and even though "Runaways" and "Sentinel" in particular were well-received by critics, were talked about in WIZARD and chatted up endlessly by Joe Quesada, all of the titles from that line are gone, EXCEPT a Spider-related book"Venom", and two X-related books "Emma Frost" and "Mystique". There were abunch of other titles like "Namor" and "Human Torch" ,and they tried to do some with a manga style. Yet the only ones that made it to now are the latest offerings in marvel's two major tent poles. So marketing deoesn't always help. It's difficult to get retailers and fans to change their habits.

This is the function of the distribution problems of comics and the structure of the industry. With the perceived value of individual books so low, both retailers and customers have become inert [WAY beyond conservative].

It's a function of the almost bizarre comics world, as well....where characters rule over artists (and we're not even getting into writers).

I would say its impossible to Rip up the numbers with that kinda crap...support your favorite Artist/Creator!!! Doesn't matter if its music or books or movies...buy it.

Yeah, I realize that's a pretty lame thing to do, but the only reason I downloaded Spidey 2099 was because I can't walk into my local comic store and buy the whole series in one shot. I've flipped through the Spidey 2099 box and its full of gaps. I actually bought issue 1 when it first came out, but I was alot younger then and it didn't fly with me. Re-reading issue one a few months back, I dug the hell out of it. Its a few years old now and I don't think selling out of a few back issues of Spidey 2099 at a comic store in Ontario would really matter a single lick Marvel comics, PAD / what have you.

There's a bunch of comics for download at Suprnova.org and if I grab any I make sure they're issues that are a few years old. (did that with Spidey 2099 and Marvel's old Star Wars run) Going out and downloading a comic series thats brand spakin new is flat out cheap and an unwarented kick in the sack to an indusrty that needs buyers.

Hi PAD,

Since I enjoyed both Spidey 2099 and Captain Marvel, I'd like to know if when you created the Thanatos character, you already had in your mind what you did with him in Captain Marvel. (I'm trying not to spoil anyone).
I was so glad when your characters appeared in Marv's title. I though "hey, somebody still care about 2099" :)

"Ah 2099... I remember how awful the art got on Doom 2099... and only because an issue or two crossed over with Fantastic Four, a title I buy rabidly."

Wich art ? Pat Broderick or Steve Pugh ?
Doom was my favorite (even though Leonardy's Spidey were really good). If you like Doom, there's a website hosting lots of sketches of Doom, by lots of famous artists here : http://www.latveria.fr.st

"Has anyone given thought that the reason that Supergirl's appearance in "Superman&Batman" are selling so much is (here's a shocker)MICHAEL TURNER."

Yes, this has been cited before, and it's mostly HOGWASH; otherwise, Turner's own APSEN publications would be tearing up the charts as well, and they're NOT.

In fact, Turner's run in S/B is NOT really "selling so much" to consumers as it is to RETAILERS, who are currently BUYING IN EXCESS because they perceive the series to be a SAFE BET.

KET

"Oooh, evil corporations control the future!"

Your word for today is "cyberpunk". To illustrate today's word, your reading list will include William Gibson's Sprawl Trilogy (Neuromancer, Count Zero, Mona Lisa Overdrive), the short stories of Bruce Sterling, and the anthology "Mirrorshades". (I would have included the Gibson/Sterling steampunk novel "The Difference Engine", but I'm not that cruel - and not everything Gibson touches turns to gold...).

The dystopian future underlying the several series is not, in and of itself, necessarily a valid criticism of the 2099 line. From what I saw (in an area without comic shops, I was only able to find a few issues of Spidey 2099), the concept was interestingly done - I was particularly amused by the idea of a religious cult growing up around the legend of the Avenger Thor. It felt sometimes like editorial decisions kept cutting into Miguel's character development ("This issue is too talky! Have him fight somebody for seventeen pages!"), but overall, had I had access to a proper shop, I'd have collected at least the entire Spidey 2099 run. (Then again, what do I know - I liked "Psi-Force", especially after they dumped the explosive kid and picked up the energy leech...)

"But unfortunately, right now, when comic readership is still relatively low, it is hard for ANYTHING new to break through."

Only because both of the 'Big Two' publishers continue to employ a predictable "circling the wagons" stance to what they're currently selling. Merely paying temporary lip service to new concepts is NOT how one goes about PROMOTING the unfamiliar.

"marvel hyped the hell out of their Tsunami line, and even though "Runaways" and "Sentinel" in particular were well-received by critics, were talked about in WIZARD and chatted up endlessly by Joe Quesada, all of the titles from that line are gone, EXCEPT a Spider-related book"Venom", and two X-related books "Emma Frost" and "Mystique". There were abunch of other titles like "Namor" and "Human Torch" ,and they tried to do some with a manga style."

Sorry, but these latter two failed because they simply WEREN'T ANY GOOD.

However, the endurance of EMMA FROST does seem to be an enigma, as the only thing I see striking about that series are the sleazy Greg Horn covers. But MYSTIQUE has boasted both good writing and decent artwork.

Did WIZARD really do that much coverage of RUNAWAYS or SENTINEL individually, or was it merely part of a puff piece covering the Tsunami launching? Just curious.

KET

The Dragon Apropos story was never published by Dragon, however it did become the first chapter to "Woad to Wuin"

KET,
I don't think the two titles you cite as "not being any good" were either, but it puts the lie to the argument that marketing determines success.
And Greg Horn's art, sleazy? Do you have a problem with the female form? There's NOTHING wrong with sexy picturesI feel they are tastefully done. At least they caught my attention, which is why I first picked up the book.And the story isn't groundbreaking, but it does tell the backstory of a popular character AND centers on a teen lead, which has attracted young girls/women, at least at the shop I frequent.
That is a good thing, isn't it?

KET,
I don't think the two titles you cite as "not being any good" were either, but it puts the lie to the argument that marketing determines success.
And Greg Horn's art, sleazy? Do you have a problem with the female form? There's NOTHING wrong with sexy picturesI feel they are tastefully done. At least they caught my attention, which is why I first picked up the book.And the story isn't groundbreaking, but it does tell the backstory of a popular character AND centers on a teen lead, which has attracted young girls/women, at least at the shop I frequent.
That is a good thing, isn't it?

"New characters, to be sure, but it's still aimed at readers who have fond memories of the Marvel future-verse..."

I don't think that's the case. Robert Kirkman says the following in his Newsarama interview:

“This stuff is completely unrelated, this is something new,” noted Kirkman. “I believe the old 2099 universe was wrapped up in a one shot [2099: Manifest Destiny written by Ghost Rider 2099’s Len Kaminski], so we're going in another direction. This is yet another possible future.”

It's just a different use of the same name, but nothing in Kirkman's comments suggests this is aimed at readers of the old 2099 titles.

Also, Quesada never said that Peter's decision to use the 2099 characters in Captain Marvel was a bad one, or that it was an example of what's wrong with his writing. What he specifically said was that it wasn't worth it for Marvel to take out ads promoting the appearance of these characters in "Captain Marvel", because he believed current readers weren't that interested in them. It wasn't a comment about Peter's writing abilities, he was just replying to Peter's complaints about the lack of promotion for "Captain Marvel".

So frankly, I don't see any indication that Peter has "been proven right" just because Marvel is publishing new "2099" books that aren't related to the ones from 6-10 years ago.

Rodrigo

And Greg Horn's art, sleazy? Do you have a problem with the female form?

Umm, wasn't this book being chalked up as a series for teenage girls and such?

"Here, we're throwing a Playboy model on the cover and trying to sell it to you. Enjoy."

"There are artist out there w/out a mainstream book currently. Carlos Pacheco is out there, Adam Pollina, Phil Jimenez, & so many others. You team up with them & you got a top seller."

Pacheco is working on a Superman/Batman arc and then on the next Arrowsmith miniseries.

Jimenez is working on his own Otherworld series for Vertigo.

With regards to Captain Marvel, I must say that being proven right is not important… What’s important is that, not only did Captain Marvel crush Marville, but you outlasted it’s author within the company. And he was your boss!

And you know, after the Hulk and Aquaman injustices (as a fan, that last one hurt the most!); it’s great to see the bad guy get voted off the island for a change! If that doesn’t bring a smile to your face; then we are really in dire straits here! (Quick, somebody start Knock-Knock thread STAT!)

One question I have (because you mentioned Young Justice):

Are they still a viable property? I mean, I know New Teen Titans Lite does great; but so did Young Justice in the beginning (and towards the end, too).

The reason I ask is because I was a bit disappointed by the lack of substance and consistent characterization seen in the new Teen Titans series. So I asked myself, how could I make it better and the answer was quite simple…

Use POPULAR characters that are still ripe for personal growth. So far my membership list is a who’s who of Young Justice West, starting with:

Flamebird,
Arrowette,
Captain Marvel Jr,
Lagoon Boy,
The wonder twins and
Harlequin/Duel Dent/Joker-Batman-Doomsday-PAD’s daughter.

Think about it! It would be great! You could have a great romance between Harlequin (bad girl) and CM3 (good boy). Sibling rivalry between the twins. And a weird one-upmanship between Flamebird and Arrowette. It could be like Formerly Known as the Justice League (or Young Justice’s Second Stringers) only better!

PAD says:

"I'm not sure what you mean by "Rip up the numbers." If you mean get big sales, there's no way. I mean, I appreciate the sentiment,but the numbers are pretty consistent: No one "rips up the numbers" on anything wholly original or novel or innovative. Safe and familiar is rewarded with big sales; wildly different or innovative just gets you low numbers. Even the most popular Vertigo books still way undersold "Supergirl" and "Young Justice" (which were, of course, canceled)."

Keep in mind that monthly comics sales is only one part of the sales equation for those books. Vertigo books are designed to have long life in the trades market (both in the bookstore market and in the Direct Market). Most Vertigo books tend to do well once they get to trades.

And as for the "no one rips up numbers on wholly original material"...I understand why you say that, especially given the sales struggles some of your recent material has had. But I look at Sandman, Preacher, Maus, and other groundbreaking material, and they sold quite well. Granted, if one were to pile up all the "big numbers" original books vs. the "non-big numbers" original books, the latter pile would be MUCH bigger. But you can have a breakthrough on original material if the work captures the public's eye. It's damn difficult, but it does occasionally happen.

As for 2099, this is just one more move from the Marvel Knights team that I don't understand. Once a source of great comics, Marvel Knights has really hit the skids lately. The Captain America relaunch? The Fantastic Four book? The Hulk? I'm square in the demographic for that imprint, and I'd now rather read a non-Knights book than a Knights book. And I love Robert Kirkman's work, but is this really the right project for a potential break-out talent? Tainting these books with the 2099 label (and yes, it's a taint, because it has all of the baggage of the 2099 books with none of the good traits of those books) is a dumb idea. If you want to do "Marvel in the future", why not 2100? 2104? 2199? Some other number? And the "Marvel Knights was started in 1999, and it's 100 years in the future" might work, except MK started in 98.

I really enjoyed a lot of the books that Jemas/Quesada put out in the beginning of that relationship, but after "U Decide", they've really bungled their publishing plans a lot.

"Pacheco is working on a Superman/Batman arc and then on the next Arrowsmith miniseries.

Jimenez is working on his own Otherworld series for Vertigo."

But Arrowsmith & Otherworld aren't mainstream.

Imagine PAD & Pacheco on Green Arrow or Batman or Superman or Green Lantern. The titles would sell like hotcakes.

I can almost guarantee that if Criss Cross doesnt leave CM, the title wouldn't be cancelled.

Joe

PAD - "...everything that was wrong with my writing"

And what would THAT be? Just a couple of days ago I was rereading a stack of WEB OF... and had been going through issues written by Gerry Conway when ... I stopped. I was just finishing reading the text of page one of the next issue in the pile ("Corner Business"?) and, StarWolf's Word, before I scanned down to the credits, I thought to myself, "this is a PAD issue. It's gottas be...". And, sure enough ...

What marvel can have against that kind of talent? The only answer I can come up with is the same sort of stupidity which has screwed up so many ventures and can be summed up by two lethal words: office politics.

(Sorry, forgot who wrote this...) - "part of the reason the new and VERY good She-hulk series wont last long..."

For me, it would be the art. The stories may be very good, but I wouldn't know because, after enjoying the Byrne run, this new guy's art just doesn't cut it for my favourite jade giantess. I realize I may be silly here, but for me comics are largely a visual media and when I run into what I consider substandard art, it just kills it.

Steve - "Spider-Man 2099 was where Miguel had to get his mother away from the Thorites, and succeeded in confusing the heck out of them with aplomb. I was ROTFLMAO over that particular issue."

For me, one of the funniest things I ever read was the scene in PAD's SUPERGIRL (65? I don't have it at hand here)

***spoiler alert***

where she spots what she thinks is a monster roaming the city snacking on the victims of an alien invasion only to have it turn out to be some sort of alien anthropologist studying our culture who was hungry and figured the victims had no more use for their bodies anyway. The way it gave Linda a lesson in manners, not to mention the hazards of jumping to conclusions, and had her hopelessly confused for most of the exchange was quite clever and fall-down funny.

Just a note- if you don't like the art in She-Hulk, take heart. Paul Pelletier is taking over soon.

"Just a note- if you don't like the art in She-Hulk, take heart. Paul Pelletier is taking over soon."

He's doing one fill-in issue, #6.

Craig J. Ries,
So, in other words, what you are saying, is that teenage girls will be intimidated by a good-looking woman.
Riiiiiight!
How condescending. And how inaccurate.
Back when Dan Jurgens was doing Lara Croft, a character dismissed by many as having only two - ahem - positive qualities he told me that he enjoyed the book mainly for two reasons:
1.) The blank slate it afforded him to tell stories
2.) There were two types of girls/ladies that were at conventions he went to. Those who were there with their boyfriends/husbands, and those who would stand in line with Tomb Raider comics for him to sign, and who often dressed like the character.
The idea that women will be "turned off" by a sexy looking woman is illogical, and even destructive, thinking.
It suggests that women are easily intimidated, and have low self-esteem. It further reinforces the idea that if you "look like a model" you had better dress like Mary Poppins to be taken seriously. As if being attrctive and aspiring to be a CEO (for example) are mutually exclusive.
In fact, the women I have meant in positions of authority are successful (and in my opinion, made sexier or at least more appealing) because of the air of confidence that they have. They can laugh at themselves, while at the same time expecting nothing less than the best from themselves or others. Those who don't have that confidence make excuses, blame others, and then whine about the "glass ceiling".
Are you aware that THIRTY PERCENT of the readership of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is female? Someone I know who is in the fashion industry was one of them.
Finally, let me close with a quote from Christina Z.,
"Why is it in comics, we can accept exaggerated powers, we can accept exaggerated situations, but we can't accept exaggerated BODIES?"

Oh, someone up there mentioned Emma Frost's series. well accourding to comicbook resources' rich johnston the series is being cancelled w/ issue 18.

No, Jerome, Craig isn't saying that girls will be threatened by a good-looking woman. He's saying that a lot of the early Emma Frost covers looked as though they were taken from porn-video-box covers, and that THAT might just possibly put female readers off.

Now, from what I've seen, Horn has shifted the focus of the covers quite a bit in the last 4-6 months, and the covers I've seen recently are ones girls might well be fine with. If you're restricting your argument solely to those, I'd go along with it (at least insofar as I can, seeing as I've never read the series to judge it one way or the other). But if you're maintaining that the first few covers are ones female readers will naturally find appealing, I think you're seriously off base.

TWL

"So why not i dont know go to newsarama ...in
stead of another marvel dc bashing session"(paraphrasing).
You realize if we were all well informed and thought before we spoke a lot of conversation wouldnt be taking place here?(sarcasm,people,sarcasm)
unfortunately bashing DC and Marvel is pretty easy at times because
1.They are still the big boys on the block
2.They make decisions that dont make sense to fans but do make from a business standpoint.
3.No one likes their favorite character ,series,
"being ruined " or cancelled .
Not that the bashing is always justified or correct.Lord knows i do my share of it.
There was a point to what i was saying,but i forget what it is.....oh well :)

Dear Luigi Novi:
Considering that I was discussing an issue that had already been out, I honestly did not feel a spoiler's warning was necessary.
In the future, I will be more considerate.
Due to circumstances beyond my control I am only able to get to my local (about 20 miles away!)comic book store about once a month if I'm lucky, so S/B #10 and probably #11 will be waiting for me by the time I do get there next week.
Whether she is or ain't, will hopefully be revealed by the 4th of July.
Lee. :)

Another possible problem with Tsunami was that these books were effectively announced as having a trade pb version coming out down the line. It's a lot easier to say with a trade guaranteed new title "Well, I'll check it out on the stands and if it's good I'll just wait for the trade". Runaways and Sentinel are both supposed to be doing fairly well as trades, although it's unclear if it's well enough to justify more material.

Starwolf-
There is another thing about that monster that Supergirl encountered that is there if you are looking for it. Look at the Monster and then imagine Tony Head doing all the dialogue......heeheeeheeeee

Kath O. - "Tony Head"? Sorry, the reference is lost on me.

Giles from Buffy... also known as Anthony Stewart Head, he was also a star of Taster's Choice Commercials way back in the day...

Travis

unfortunately bashing DC and Marvel is pretty easy at times

Or, as John Cleese says, it's too easy... sorta like setting fire to Lionel Richie.
(His words, not mine. If you haven't seen How to Irritate People, it's worthwhile)

Travis

can you guys give me your opinion as to which artist would work best w/ PAD on any given title?

example:

PAD & Chris Bachalo on Batman
PAD & Carlos Pacheco on Superman
PAD & Ed McGuiness on Capt America
PAD & Scott McDaniel on Daredevil
PAD & Alan Davis on Aquaman
PAD & Adam Kubert on Thor
PAD & CrissCross on Green Lantern
PAD & Jim Lee on JLA
PAD & Mike Deodato jr on Hulk

You can pick any artist & any title or character you think deserves a title. What would be your dream PAD comic book project.

Joe V.: Has anyone given thought that the reason that Supergirl's appearance in "Superman&Batman" are selling so much is (here's a shocker)MICHAEL TURNER.
Luigi Novi: Not me. I don’t care for Michael Turner at all. He draws everyone with what looks like dark eye makeup, including the men, making them look like Johnny Depp from Pirates of the Caribbean. This, combined with the huge eyebrows he gives Superman, makes his Superman look awful. He draws all his women to look like anorexics, his anatomy is accordingly average in its accuracy, and he doesn’t use a very strong line.

I FAR preferred Ed McGuiness, and I’m hoping for his return. I’m also looking forward to Carlos Pacheco’s run.

Joe V.: But the key to any comicbook is the art. the art carries the title, which is why MICHAEL TURNER is kicking ass, JIM LEE is kicking ass. A book with a great writer withe a mediocre or even a good artist will be outsold by a book w/a good or mediocre writer w/a great artist. …Warren Ellis write a damn good planetary w/ John Cassaday & no one gives a shit. Ellis does Ultimate Fantastic Four & now everyone cares. John Cassaday does X-Men (w/ wheadon)& now he's the next big thing.
Luigi Novi: Waitaminute. You just said that no one cared about a book Cassaday did with Ellis, and Ellis is a hot writer. So in other words, even with a hot writer, Cassaday, in your estimation, didn’t improve sales. So why does that theory hold when he goes to work on X-Men with Whedon?

Joe V.: I think part of the problem with Peter's work is not so much the quality of his writing, but rather the artists attached to the project. In HULK, PAD had Todd McFarlane & is replaced by Jeff Purves who is no Todd McFarlane. He then gets Dale Keown & is replaced by Gary Frank. Now i like Gary Frank, & he's very clean & detailed & i read supreme power, & have midnight nation as well as his supergirl run, but he is no Dale Keown. Sorry, no contest. then Frank is replaced by Liam Sharpe who wqas more of a Simon Bisley rip off, Angel Medina, who at that time was a bit of an unknown.
Luigi Novi: Okay, see now it seems you’re veering off point, because you started off talking about the key things necessary for sales, and now you’re just talking about which artists you like personally. My understanding (and I could be wrong), is that the sales of Hulk were strong throughout the runs of McFarlane, AND Purves, AND Keown, AND Frank. I liked all those artists, but didn’t care for Sharpe or Medina, and yet I believe sales remained strong on their runs too. So are you alleging that sales were poor during the runs of Purves, Frank, Sharpe or Medina?

(Can anyone with sales statistics shed light on this?)

Joe V.: X factor had Larry Stroman, but really, I didn't get him a lot. You get Joe Quesada, but BOOM, your off the book.

Captain Marvel has Criss Cross, but then no one else.
Luigi Novi: Again, are you talking about what you “get,” or what sold? Did X-Factor not sell well? If it did, how does your “getting” pertain to it? Similarly, are you counting Chris Williams (aka ChrisCross) as a “hot” artist? (What you later said about CM not being cancelled if he didn’t leave the book would suggest that you are.) If you are, then that disproves your model too, if only because in that the book lacked the “hot character,” you prescribed, and not the hot artist.

Joe V.: There are artist out there w/out a mainstream book currently. Carlos Pacheco is out there…
Luigi Novi: Give Pacheco’s popularity, he is always working on one project or another. (Ralf Haring later mentioned that he’s working on a Superman/Batman arc, which I now recall reading somewhere.) Just because there’s no book out this month or last month with a given artist’s name on it doesn’t mean that he’s not working.

KET: However, the endurance of EMMA FROST does seem to be an enigma, as the only thing I see striking about that series are the sleazy Greg Horn covers.

And Greg Horn's art, sleazy? Do you have a problem with the female form? There's NOTHING wrong with sexy picturesI feel they are tastefully done.
Luigi Novi: My problem with Horn’s art is that they read like nothing more than pinups, and are neither narrative, nor imbued with the character’s personality. They’re all homogenized into looking like Playboy models instead of strong females.

JoeV: But Arrowsmith [isn’t] mainstream.
Luigi Novi: Says who? It’s written by Busiek, drawn by Pacheco, and published by Wildstorm/Cliffhanger. Not exactly a Vertigo or Top Shelf book, after all. Just because it’s not superheroes doesn’t mean it’s not mainstream.

JoeV: I can almost guarantee that if Criss Cross doesnt leave CM, the title wouldn't be cancelled.
Luigi Novi: Oh really? And how exactly have you made this determination? On what do you base this “almost guarantee”? The book wasn’t selling well, even when Chris was on it, so what does he have to do with it?

Again, it seems that you’re confusing what you like with what the masses bought. You can guarantee that you’d keep buying it. You can’t guarantee that it would not be cancelled.

Jerome Maida: "Why is it in comics, we can accept exaggerated powers, we can accept exaggerated situations, but we can't accept exaggerated BODIES?"
Luigi Novi: We do. If it’s a body whose exaggeration is pertinent to the character, or something that’s always been an integral part of the character or their history, like Hulk’s body, I accept it. But if someone like Psylocke (a former fashion model turned assassin) suddenly shows up looking like the Playboy-era Anna Nicole Smith, as Jim Lee drew her on the second X-Men series, it looks ridiculous to me.

Lee Houston, Junior: Luigi Novi: Considering that I was discussing an issue that had already been out, I honestly did not feel a spoiler's warning was necessary. In the future, I will be more considerate.
Luigi Novi: Thank you. Just to point out an example of good spoiler warning etiquette, The Comics Buyer’s Guide always includes warnings, even when they discussing comics or movies or TV shows that are years old.

Hey - I never read the original 2099 series but I thought that 2099 Spiderman bit was heaps cool in the Cap Marvel series, in fact everything in the Captain Marvel series was cool except for all that U-decide business came about..

By the way, my dream PAD comic book project would be: Frank Quitley & PAD on DC's Shazam/Captain Marvel. Released on Hard Cover..

Peter,

Kudos to you for talking about comics.

I don't follow a lot of DC titles (except for the big ones) so I didn't know about the SuperGirl run you had until recently.

I'm reading the new Supergirl stories and I like them, but I did have to go and pick up your run also. I was really impressed with your story and really don't understand why DC brought her back again in what appears to be the same way.

I guess they don't pay me enough to understand, :0).

Novafan

Luigi,

My points above were:

1)Quality art outsells quality writing.

2) Super Heroes outsell any other genre.

3) Mainstream are super hero comics.

4) Quality writing + Quality art + super heroes equals a hit.

examples:
Bendis on Spiderman, Daredevil, Avengers, Ultimate FF & Ultimate X-men will outsell Bendis on Powers & Pulse

Azzarello & Risso on Batman outsells Azzarello & Risso on 100 Bullets.

Millar on Spiderman, Ultimates, Ulimate FF, Wolverine outsells Millar on Chosen & Wanted.

On last month's Wizard, the 1st non super hero title to crack the top 50 was Conan 1 & it was in the 20's & the only reason it was so high was because it's a #1. Even the Claremont/Byrne JLA (which was garbage) was in the top 20.

Now, you may not like Mike Turner, & I also think his art is highly over rated, but you & I are in the minority because the rest of comicdom loves the guy. The guy sells well. Very well. I shudder to think what a Bendis/Turner super hero project would do, because i tell you this, it would shatter sales records.

As far as Planetary goes, let me tell you this. I love warren ellis. . my top writers are (in order) Alan Moore, Frank Miller, PAD, Neil Gaiman, Bendis, Ellis, Millar, Buseik, Mark Waid, grant Morrison & Jim Starlin. Back to my point, i collect Planetary. But look at where it is in the sales charts, look at his other projects he did recently. Now look at the sales of Ultimate FF, & interest in Iron Man is picking up when Marvel announced he was taking over the title. Look @ the #'s Cassaday was pulling in Capt. America & Astonishing X-Men vs. Planetary.

I'll get to my Hulk point in the next posting.

The only thing I can think of is that they liked the ideas, but didn't care for your execution?

Or they could just be crack-heads...

Joe, just so I understand you (in true Spinozian spirit), how do your comments about the differnet Hulk artists fit into what you just posted?

Again, I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

Luigi,
The point I was trying to make using Peter's run in Hulk is this, let me give you a personal story:

I was in high school when i discovered Peter's run in Hulk. But the only reason I picked it up was simply because I was looking for back issues by my favorite artist at that time, who was setting records drawing Amazing Spiderman. I must admit it, The writing was good, but I never continiued past McFarlane's last Hulk issue (346 i think). I remember looking @ the Purves issues & going YUCK. so i didn't pick them up. My next encounter with the Hulk was during the count down arc, & the only reason I picked them up was because Walt Simonson (one of my all time favorites) drew the covers. I remember looking @ the art & going YUCK, again & I ripped the cover & threw the issues away without even reading them. I did take notice of an up and coming artist named Dale Keown, but wasn't interested in it.

Now, like many people I was heavily into all things X (which I thank God I grew out off) & Peter was given X Factor. I was cracking up with each issue. Now there was a 3 part crossover in the Hulk which i picked up. I loved the art of the future PITT creator & picked up as many back issues I could. (To my surprise, I discovered that he had drawn countdown pt 4)but I left Hulk @ issue 400. I didn't pick it up again until the Heroes Reborn fiasco & I loved it when Kubert did the art chores. I had followed Kubert through Wolverine & the Onslaught mini's.

Now why didn't i stick through Hulk? After all, the quality of the writing hadn't changed. In fact, now as I've re read them as an adult the writing improved with each arc. Well, it was the art. It was not until last year i completed the Hulk run when i bought many of my missing issues thru ebay. I tell you the art of Purves was still bloody horrible & Liam sharpe was just a tad better, but that's about it. Gary Frank, to me, never fit well as a hulk artist. I'll even tell you this, I keep them becase of Peter, but my 3 comic book stores in town have most of the purves, & sharp & medina issues @ $1 & don't sell. & i'm sure that if you look at sales from any old previews of that era, that there were drops after major artists left. Even now I tell you that the quality of the art was noit the same.

Look what happened recently after Jim Lee was done with Batman. Look at the #'s.

CrissCross may not have saved CM, but i tell you the #'s would have probably been better if he had stayed thru the run. That is NOT a knock on PAD. It is simply that ultimatly, peolple want to look @ the pretty pictures, the the last year & 1/2 of CM artists left a lot to be desired.

Why do you think HULK:THE END sold so well? Look @ how much it cost when it came out, how it sold out & look @ the current price. I saw it go on ebay for $75 2 months ago. Why did the Kubert issues do better then the Sharpe or Frank issues?

ART, ART, ART. It makes all the difference.

Joe V.

I have to throw my two cents in here. I follow the writing first. If a book is poorly written, has poor grammar and spelling, I won't buy any more issues. There are a lot of writers I know I will enjoy reading. But, if the art is poor that lessens my enjoyment. While I couldn't care less which artist draws the pictures, they must be at least technically competent. I think as one gets older, one gravitates more toward story than pictures. Just my opinion.

Karen, I totally agree with you. I, as i get older prefer to read better stories regardless of the art. (I love LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN despite the fact that Kevin O'Neil is...well lets just say not my cup of tea)but the market is controlled by mostly peaople in their early 20's who prefer a half naked Witchblade to Fallen Angel, despite the huge diffrences in quality writing.I have a self imposed monthly comic budget of $75 (about 30 issues) as the price of comics goes up, i have to make cuts. so ultimatly i keep the best written & drawn books.
so i buy Superman (Azzarello & Jim Lee), The Ultimate line (Bendis, Millar, Ellis, Hitch, Bagley, etc., Marvel Knight Spidey (Millar & Dodson), Flash (Johnns & Porter), Teen Titans (Johnns & McKone), Superman/Batman (Loeb & Turner) etc. Economics demand i be more selective. But if you ask the teen & young adults that read comics, you'll se the writing is secondary to the art.

Joe V.

Are you aware that THIRTY PERCENT of the readership of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is female?

Are you aware that women aren't the target audience of the SI Swimsuit issue?

Or do you think it's advisable to sell comics with porn-like covers to *teenage girls*?

Hell, is it advisable to sell anything with porn-like covers to teenage anybody? :)

And how many teenage girls pick up the SI Swimsuit Issue again?

It suggests that women are easily intimidated, and have low self-esteem.

Btw, welcome to the Real World, where this kind of thing DOES happen.

In case you didn't notice, we do live in a self-destructive society where if you aren't Little Miss Perfect Body, you might not get what you want in life.
Plastic surgery? Lypo? etc.

"In case you didn't notice, we do live in a self-destructive society where if you aren't Little Miss Perfect Body, you might not get what you want in life.
Plastic surgery? Lypo? etc."

Two words: "The Swan".

Two words: "The Swan".

Sorry, but I'm not catching the reference.

Posted by: Jonathan (the other one) at June 24, 2004 08:34 AM
"In case you didn't notice, we do live in a self-destructive society where if you aren't Little Miss Perfect Body, you might not get what you want in life.
Plastic surgery? Lypo? etc."

Two words: "The Swan".

Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 24, 2004 11:08 AM
Two words: "The Swan".

>Sorry, but I'm not catching the reference.

If I am remembering correctly, The Swan was a recent reality TV show that had its participants transformed from "ugly ducklings" into beauties and then judged to see who was turned into the most attractive. Sad commentary on our current society values indeed.

Correct, Fred. On "The Swan", ordinary-looking women were led (by professional plastic surgeons) into thinking they were hideous, and could only be saved by extensive, painful surgery. At the end, the contestants were judged on their new artificially-induced "beauty". The grand prize - a million dollars? A spread in "Playboy"? No - the so-called "grand prize" on this show was a chance to *compete* in a beauty pageant. Yes, you read that right - the "winner" won only the right to be judged AGAIN!

Some people think the nadir in television programming so far was "The Littlest Groom". I say "The Swan" makes it look downright respectable...

Are you aware that THIRTY PERCENT of the readership of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is female?

Are you aware that women aren't the target audience of the SI Swimsuit issue?>>

No, but he has a point when a third of the readership is female (if those numbers are correct).

I've known plenty of women who enjoyed reading Maxim or FHM (partly for a laugh) and I've known women who go to strip clubs that feature female strippers for a laugh and to look at pretty bodies.

Women can and do admire attractive female forms just as they admire attractive male forms. However, that's heading off to a whole different topic.

>

Greg Horns early covers were hidious and questionable and most liekly would not appeal to a young female audience, however, (at the risk of sounding like a paedo) I'd take a look at the YA novel racks geared towards girls and at magazines aimed at the teen crowd. Plenty of attractive women on them, some dressed provocatively, but not "porn-like". Take that as you will.

>

Well, you run up against the porn vs sexuality debate. When does healthy sexuality and admiration of an attractive figure cross over into porn? Better people than I have had many a head scratching session over this.

>

I think the larger point is that the whole of girls/women shouldn't be lumped into on group just as the whole of anyone shouldn't be.

Some women would balk at the suggestion of going to a Hooter's, others would jump at the chance for some damn fine wing dings and a chance to have a laugh at the kitch of it.

I think it's safe to say that the early Horn covers were not aimed at attracting a female audience though ;)

Jim

Jerome Maida: Are you aware that THIRTY PERCENT of the readership of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is female?
Luigi Novi: So in other words, SEVENTY percent is male? Are you arguing against Craig’s point, or trying to help make it for him? :-)

JoeV: Luigi, The point I was trying to make using Peter's run in Hulk is this, let me give you a personal story: I was in high school when i discovered Peter's run in Hulk. But the only reason I picked it up was simply because I was looking for back issues by my favorite artist at that time, who was setting records drawing Amazing Spiderman. I must admit it, The writing was good, but I never continiued past McFarlane's last Hulk issue (346 i think)…

Now, like many people I was heavily into all things X (which I thank God I grew out off) & Peter was given X Factor. I was cracking up with each issue. Now there was a 3 part crossover in the Hulk which i picked up. I loved the art of the future PITT creator & picked up as many back issues I could…

Look what happened recently after Jim Lee was done with Batman. Look at the #'s.
Luigi Novi: Again, what do these things have to do with one another? The whole point that you originally began with above was the key things needed for sales. But your Hulk and X-Factor examples are a poor argument for it, because they disprove your theory. What you describe with the Hulk art run was your personal buying habits vis a vis the Hulk art. But the book’s sales didn’t reflect your relationship with it, as sales were strong throughout the various artists during Peter’s run. Why are you assuming that when you chose to buy the title is when everyone else went along with you? I mean, are you actually consulting sales figures for those various eras that you feel coincide with your own loyalty to the title?

Your use of X-Factor as an example is similarly specious, because you argued above in your 2:14am post yesterday that you “didn’t get” Larry Stroman, but now you say that were cracking up with each issue, and indeed, sales on that title during Peter’s run (if my memory is correct) were strong. Is it reasonably true that any one of those three key things helps sell a title, and that two of them or all three will more or less guarantee it? Well, of course. But the examples you provide to illustrate it are poor choices, as it seems you chose veered off from the “what sells” argument to the “what I personally chose to buy,” not only confusing the two (as if your tastes mirrored general fandom’s), but sometimes contradicting yourself with the same example—mentioning an example of something you “didn’t get” in one breath, and then mentioning the same one as something that “cracked you up” in the next.

JoeV: CrissCross may not have saved CM, but i tell you the #'s would have probably been better if he had stayed thru the run. That is NOT a knock on PAD. It is simply that ultimatly, peolple want to look @ the pretty pictures, the the last year & 1/2 of CM artists left a lot to be desired.
Luigi Novi: Yes, I know you weren’t knocking on Peter. I’m not accusing you of that. But personally, I thought that Ivan Reis’ and Michael Ryan’s art were SPECTACULAR. While Chris Williams’ histrionic facial expressions were something not mirrored by many other artists, overall, I liked other aspects in Reis’ and Ryan’s styles more than Williams’. I didn’t care at all for the fill-ins done by Angel Medina or Kyle Hotz, but then again, I don’t know if this reflects the opinions of other buyers and readers.

JoeV: Why do you think HULK:THE END sold so well? Look @ how much it cost when it came out, how it sold out & look @ the current price. I saw it go on ebay for $75 2 months ago. Why did the Kubert issues do better then the Sharpe or Frank issues?
Luigi Novi: I wasn’t aware that they did. What were the respective sales figures during Kubert’s run and Frank’s run?

Given that I far prefer Gary Frank’s art to Kubert’s, (and that I loyally follow Peter almost anywhere because his writing is consistently entertaining, even if I don’t like the artist), I wouldn’t know why the latter would outsell the former, but I’d prefer it if you first established that it did.

Karen: I have to throw my two cents in here. I follow the writing first. If a book is poorly written, has poor grammar and spelling, I won't buy any more issues.
Luigi Novi: I wasn’t aware this was a common problem? Don’t editors and letterers and whoever else usually catch grammar or spelling errors? Don’t writers use word processors and their Spell/Grammar check tools?

Craig J. Ries: Or do you think it's advisable to sell comics with porn-like covers to *teenage girls*?
Luigi Novi: While I don’t think Horn’s covers are particularly imaginative or narrative, and very homogenous, I don’t think I would go so far as to label them as “porn-like.”

Karen: I have to throw my two cents in here. I follow the writing first. If a book is poorly written, has poor grammar and spelling, I won't buy any more issues.
Luigi Novi: I wasn’t aware this was a common problem? Don’t editors and letterers and whoever else usually catch grammar or spelling errors? Don’t writers use word processors and their Spell/Grammar check tools?

Not so much with the big 2, but I've picked up a number of Indy's with a number of errors. I understand that in many instances these are a labor of love with the authors getting little, if not losing money on the publication. But with only a little more effort they could track down a friend who could give it a once over. I am not professing to be an expert in grammar, but if the mistakes are so glaring I can pick them out easily, then I'd rather spend my money elsewhere. Even if the plot and art seem quite good, I just can't get past the errors. I've been annoyed by mistakes in regular books, as well, though not as often. All that money being paid to editors and I see typos all the time.

Luigi,
First, let me say that virtually all the posters here add something to the debate, but you add a unique level of intellectualism to the discussions here and I always enjoy what you have to say, even if I don't agree with it.

Piggy backing on what Karen said, I also follow the writing first and foremost. And while I won't necessarily drop a title if there's poor spelling and grammar (unless its truly egregious), I do find it annoying. The writers of Now Comics "Green Hornet_ series consistently spelled "all right" as the incorrect "alright." I'd actually pointed out that error to the editor at a convention once, but for whatever reason, they decided to stick with the wrong spelling.

Luigi,

I'd also like to echo Jerome Maida's comments. I also enjoy reading your well thought out posts.

By the way, just curious. Is your last name pronounced No-vee or No-vy, like the city?

Rick

Rick,
I always hate basic grammatical errors in a professional publication myself. However, since I have never read an issue of NOW Comics' "Green Hornet", I have to ask, in what context was the word "alright" used? Because I have learned in African-American ( or Ebonic, if you will), the phrase is a distinctive one used for emphasis, like, for example, "You're being a little shaky, dog, alright?"
Again, since I have never read the book, I cannot tell if this was the context in which it was used.
But just thought I would put it out there, that the term "alright" actually has some roots and acceptance among certain pockets of the population, and there fore may not be automatically perceived as incorrect, unless you take into account other factors.

Luigi,
To answer your question:
I am arguing AGAINST Craig's point. The reason I think THIRTY percent of Swimsuit readers being women is significant because:
A.) It's Craig who seems to feel a cover of a sexy woman in a sexy pose/outfit automatically turns off women
B.) The SI Swimsuit Issue has, for years, been bashed by both the Right and the Left. By the Right for being immoral, contributing to the degradation of our culture, blah, blah, blah. By the Left for treating women as objects, setting an impossible standard, blah, blah, blah.
Yet almost a THIRD of readers of the swimsuit Issue are female, which is vastly greater than the normal female readership for SI. So it would seem, on the surface, that women are MORE drawn to beautiful women in swimsuits than to actual coverage of female athletes. I have various theories for this I won't go into right now. But the fact remains, a substantial percentage of women are not only not REPELLED by the image of a beautiful woman on the cover, but DRAWN to it. So the argument that Greg Horn's covers (which have hyad the character dressed in T-Shirts and jeans for the past three issues) are automatically TURNING OFF female readers does not bear up under scrutiny. At the same time, it sure helped the book stand out from the crwod for me:)
I may have ignored it. The cover pulled me in, and I found out I liked the story. Seems like Greg Horn is doing his job!

Travis - " If you haven't seen How to Irritate People, it's worthwhile"

Tastes vary. I found it to be some of his less inspired work. I thought his business training shorts were much better.

Joe - "2) Super Heroes outsell any other genre."

In North America, perhaps. And then, only in the Anglophone segments of the population. In Japan and in Europe, where comics are a bigger phenomenon than they are here, the super hero genre is a small fraction of what's out there. Even here, in Canada, look at Francophone bookshops and you'll see their equivalent of trade paperbacks for European and Japanese stuff, but American super hero stuff.

Fred - "The Swan was a recent reality TV show that had its participants transformed from "ugly ducklings" into beauties and then judged to see who was turned into the most attractive. Sad commentary on our current society values indeed."

The whole concept of these reality shows is a sad commentary. Millions upon millions of people who would rather experience life via their tv rather than going out and having a real life of their own.

I often see the same thing on the Internet. I'm one of the moderators on a chat channel about Japan. I'm not on all that often, but I've lost track of how often I've seen people who seem to LIVE on there complain about how they don't have a date for Friday night, etc. I generally tell them to look around them until they see this rectangular thing in the wall called a 'door'. When they've found it, turn off the computer, and open the door. Go through it. Continue to go through doors until they wind up in this big thing called the outside world. They'll probably have a lot more luck looking there.

James - "I think it's safe to say that the early Horn covers were not aimed at attracting a female audience though"

Two friends, who are fans of the Emma Frost character, were turned off buying the book because of those covers. Said friends are cheesecake (of the female variety) loving, heterosexual males, but they couldn't abide the way those covers were a complete screwup of the character.
Marvel killed me off X-MEN several years ago when they also screwed around with established characters to the point where I couldn't stand it any more.

Oops.

"look at Francophone bookshops and you'll see their equivalent of trade paperbacks for European and Japanese stuff, but American super hero stuff."

That should have read, in part: "... but very little American super hero stuff."

Posted by Jerome Maida: "The argument that Greg Horn's covers (which have hyad the character dressed in T-Shirts and jeans for the past three issues) are automatically TURNING OFF female readers does not bear up under scrutiny."

I think the argument is not that the recent issues

http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost9.htm
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost10.jpg
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost11.jpg
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost12.jpg

will turn off female readers as much as it is that the early issues, with their gynecology-and-mammary-oriented poses were embarassing for everyone to buy...

http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost1.jpg
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost2.jpg
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost3.jpg

So the argument that Greg Horn's covers (which have hyad the character dressed in T-Shirts and jeans for the past three issues) are automatically TURNING OFF female readers does not bear up under scrutiny.

Well, I gues you'll need to get the numbers for Emma Frost to prove yourself right and me wrong, because the SI Swimsuit Issue isn't even in the same category as a comic book, much less in the same neighborhood of sales figures.

The fact remains: SI is aimed at men of all ages.

The Emma Frost comic is aimed at teenage women, but the early covers for the series were not.

You know, we haven't even touched on the fact of whether or not Frost is the type of character they should be trying to display as a role model (of some sort).

She's been a villain most of the time, and recent events in the X-books aren't exactly putting her up there on a pedestal either. :)

Jerome,

The word "alright" was used in the "Green Hornet" series as part of ordinary conversation (where "all right" should have been used), not as part of a character's slang. I don't have the issues handy at the moment, so I can't cite a specific instance, but there would be things like, "will Aunt Diana be alright?" or "Is everything alright, Paul?" etc.

Come to think of it, I don't recall there being any slang at all. At least nothing that really jumps out at you. Certainly nothing like the hypothetical example you cited. There may be an "ain't" here and there, but that's so widely used, it's almost become standard English.

Aside from that consistent grammatical error (and a few other minor flaws), the series was quite good, tying in the original radio Green Hornet (Brit Reid), and the TV Hornet (Brit Reid II) with the modern, Now Comics Hornet (Paul Reid). They just continued the uncle/nephew theme begun back in the radio days, when the Hornet was revealed to be the grand-nephew of The Lone Ranger. Each successive Hornet was the nephew of his predecessor.

But one thing that has me scratching my head is why they would leave out several pages from the hardcover collection of the first 14 issues. In the original issues, these pages revealed in flashback how and why Brit Reid II decided to take up the mantle of the Green Hornet in the 1960s. In the collected edition, they simply aren't there.

Rick

Craig,
As Joss Whedon says, Emma "is the Spike of the group". Or don't you believe in redemption? That is interesting.
And by "role model", are you saying that every female character has to be Mary Marvel? I mean, I love Captain America and Superman - probably more than most - but if every male character was like them, it would get boring fast.
I mean, three of the characters I related to the most growing up were The Hulk, Batman, and Spider-man. You can certainly debate whether "Bruce Banner/childlike monster" or Bruce Wayne/dark knight are "role models", and Peter Parker is just slightly neurotic, wouldn't you agree?

John DiBello,
And you were given the insight and authority to speak for EVERYONE by whom? And when?

Posted by Jerome Maida: John DiBello, And you were given the insight and authority to speak for EVERYONE by whom? And when?

Bought it. On eBay. Good value!

Seriously, Jerome, I'm summarizing (admittedly what I believed from having read others' posts) to be the argument that the early covers of Emma Frost were offputting to the target market. If I understand correctly, Craig, Tim, Luigi and Starwolf have all expressed this. (Correct me if I'm wrong, guys). Hence my words "I think the argument is..." And I produced links to the early and recent covers to let posters make up their own minds.

If I'm wrong that that's not the argument we're having, then I've completely misunderstood--but I'd like others to tell me that's not the conflict being discussed rather than just you, please.

In the end, like any discussion group, I'm stating my opinion, and you're stating yours. But I'm not going to back down because you choose to post a direct attack on my ability/right/priviledge to post an opinion rather than the content of that opinion--in other words, argue the content of posts, please. Thanks!

A correction to my post above: On re-reading his post, Luigi Novi did not state, as I suggested that "the early covers of Emma Frost were offputting to the target market."

What he said was: "My problem with Horn’s art is that they read like nothing more than pinups, and are neither narrative, nor imbued with the character’s personality. They’re all homogenized into looking like Playboy models instead of strong females."

This definitely isn't the same thing I suggested and I retract including Luigi and apologize for including him in that list. Though I agree, Luigi!

I bought the poster that was made of emma frost #1. I've got it in my office @ home on the wall. I agree that the covers were made to lure boys to the title. oh well, it got cancelled & i never bought. i do hope they collect the covers.

& Luigi, you are right, i may be generalizing on the Hulk run based on my opinion of the artists, & i do wish i had the #'s for the sales, (but who actually keeps 10 years worth of WIZARD's). I can tell you that in my circle of friends (@ that time) were all dropping hulk when Keown left.

when i say stroman didn't do it for me, you have to remember that in the early 90's all things X sold & i was in that group of all things x. so i bought x factor, as well as x-force (oh God, i can't believe i used to read that. I remember once thinking how can cable carry all that equipment). Those i think are the exeptions. X still sells. Uncanny x-men wasn't any good recently w/ Austen & Garney, yet it still sold well. @ that time i was buying x faxtor because it was an X title. Now peter made it very interesting & i was taking notice. other then X factor I've never bought another Larry Stroman book.

Joe V

Jerome Maida: Luigi, First, let me say that virtually all the posters here add something to the debate, but you add a unique level of intellectualism to the discussions here and I always enjoy what you have to say, even if I don't agree with it.

Rick Keating: Luigi, I'd also like to echo Jerome Maida's comments. I also enjoy reading your well thought out posts.
Luigi Novi: Thank you. That’s very nice of you to say. :-)

Rick Keating: By the way, just curious. Is your last name pronounced No-vee or No-vy, like the city?
Luigi Novi: I’ve wasn’t aware of any such city. Where is it?

My name is pronounced (NOE’-vee), as the long letter ‘i’ used in English (which I assume is the pronunciation in that second version with the “y” you asked about) doesn’t exist in Italian.

The StarWolf: Marvel killed me off X-MEN several years ago when they also screwed around with established characters to the point where I couldn't stand it any more.

WARNING: Somewhat long response to follow. You've been warned.

Luigi Novi: Similar story for me. When a writer like Peter takes single character, even one with a supporting cast, like Hulk or Captain Marvel or Supergirl, it allows him to develop the character and the stories he/she inhabits comment on both the human condition, and explore the permutations of life with sci-fi/fantasy considerations. This is harder to do in a team book, but he pulled it off with X-Factor by focusing on the characters, coming up with realistic situations like corrupt senators, and depicting the characters’ reactions to these things.

One problem I have with the “franchise” X-books that got me to drop them when I was in my early twenties is that they are too concerned with silly stuff like spandex, danger rooms with alien technology, and all sorts of other luxuries that make it impossible for me to suspend my disbelief so I can buy that these guys are tortured souls hounded by bigotry. No one holds a regular job, no one has to keep relationships with non-mutant family members, which are often killed off so that the main characters exist in an odd sort of “bottle” with only one another as relevant characters, no non-mutant supporting characters exist, we don’t see any other teachers at the school, etc.

Another problem is the cyclical nature of the themes and premises that destroy any illusion of long-term change or development. The mansion is up. No, it’s destroyed. It’s rebuilt. No, it’s destroyed again. It’s rebuilt yet again. Jean’s alive. No, she died. No, she’s resurrected. No, she died yet again. Kitty and Kurt are X-Men. No, they left. No, they’re back again. All the X-Men and teenager spinoff groups are of one team living at the mansion. No, they’ve splintered off into different separate groups. No, they’re reunited. No, now they’re blue and gold teams. No, now they splintered again. They have individual costumes. No, they have blue and yellow for a few issues. Now they’re individual again. Now they’re black leather, like the movies. Now they’re spandex again. Magneto’s a villain. Now he’s good. Then he’s a villain again. Now he’s good again.

For me, the sense of development stopped around the end of the Australian ghost town HQ era, after which, everything lost what little sense of realism or relevance it had. When Alan Davis wrote and drew it for a while, I was intrigued enough to look through it. When I saw that the characters were finally abandoning that stupid spandex to wear black leather like the movie characters, I thought it a step in the right direction. I decided to pick up Claremont and Davis’ first issue together again (#445), and while it was okay, the “cops persecute the mutant heroes who saved innocent lives” schtick seemed like retread material.

Hearing Joss Whedon and John Cassaday were starting up a new title, I decided to buy the first two issues yesterday at the store where Judd Winick, Geoff Johns and Greg Rucka were doing a signing. I got it home, and wanted to rip apart the first issue by the time I got to page 16, where, after yet another fight between Cyclops and Wolverine, where Wolverine was acting like a jerk, and Cyke and Emma Frost were being treated by the Powers That Be like participants in a game of musical beds, Cyke gives the team yet another corny clichéd speech about leadership and their relationship as a team. When pressed for what he’s getting at by Logan, Cyke explains—get this—that “super heroes wear costumes. And quite frankly, all the black leather is making people nervous.” That’s was the important speech was about? COSTUMES?? I wanted to throw the book across the room. Many, if not most superheroes should abandon their dumb-looking spandex in favor of more commando-looking gear, and here, not only were they going in the opposite direction, but Cyke was using this as a supposedly salient point about their being a team, and using the most threadbare reasoning for it, claiming that black leather made people “nervous,” which is utter bullshit. How many people felt “nervious” watching The Matrix because of what they wore? Black leather is cool, and by instead choosing rainbow spandex, the creators are taking yet another step backward, keeping the book’s focus on the childish, superficial frivolities of superhero comics instead of tackling its more profound permutations. I also take issue with Cyke’s being a bit too self-aware that he’s a “super hero,” a line that I find about as disingenuous and self-important as I would if I heard a cop or firefighter referring to themselves as a “hero” when commended for an act of courage, when they always tend to modestly downplay the word “hero,” claiming just to be people doing a job, the same others would do for them if the positions were reversed. The second issue featured a typical battle with a foe who took hostages. Ho-hum.

Even reading the recent X-Men edition of The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe only helped a little, as the updated histories were poorly written, and contradicted what I had recently read. Why did it keep saying that “X-Treme X-Men” no longer bore any relationship to the other X-Men, when Uncanny #445 had Wolvie with Storm, Bishop, and the others, and then in the first issue of Astonishing, he was now with Cyke’s group?

None of this interests me as a reader. There’s absolutely no ideas here, nothing new, no twists, no development, no profound musings on what it would be like to live in a world with mutants, etc. The creators are instead only with recycling the same old pap, coming up with new variations on costume design, treating characters like a bowling ball and pins (Knock ‘em down, they get right back up, the ball comes back, and everything is reset in the next round), ignoring any sense of scientific plausibility or plot logic, and constantly upping the characters’ powers more and more so that they seem more like gods than just regular humans with “a little something x-tra” that lends itself to exploration of a sci-fi/fantasy premise. It used to be that movies based on comics used to mutilate and betray the source material. Now, it seems that with X-Men, the movies do a far better job of paring down everything so that the stories are about characters and themes, instead of the shallow fluff of spandex.

I don’t think I’ll ever buy another X-book from this bloated dinosaur of a franchise again, unless it’s written by someone like Peter, who actually tries to explore ideas.

Sorry for the rant. But that’s something that’s been inside me for a while.

Sorry if someone else mentioned this and I missed it . . .
A while back in But I Digress, PAD brought up a theory on comics sales along with a formula. I don't remember the details -- and correct me if someone remembers it better -- it went something like:
Points are given for writer, artist, character and publisher in how they relate to sales. People choose based on:
1. Publisher (usually the big two -- 2 points; Dark Horse or Image -- 1 point, others -- no points)
2. Character (Superman, Batman, Spidey, X-Men -- 2 points; Hulk, FF, Cap, -- 1 points; others -- no points)
3. Artist (Jim Lee, Turner -- 2 points; Cassady -- 1 point; others -- no points)
4. Writer (Bendis, Millar, Gaiman, Moore, PAD, Morrison -- 1 point; others -- nada)
So a Batman book (2 for DC, 2 for Batman) by Loeb (1) and Lee (2) -- for a total of 7 points -- would outsell Fallen Angel (2 DC) by PAD (1) and Lopez which rings in at 3 points.
There are some statistical anomalies, such as the resurgence of GI Joe a while back, but as a rule of thumb it makes a lot of sense.
Though I usually buy based on story or writer, there are a handful of artists I'd buy just for them, but they are not mainstream tastes by any means (Sienkiewicz (sp?), for example).
Anyway, I was curious about other opinions of PAD's theory.

"When pressed for what he’s getting at by Logan, Cyke explains—get this—that 'super heroes wear costumes. And quite frankly, all the black leather is making people nervous.'"

Making Cyke's line in the first movie all the more hilarious.

"You people go out in public in this?"

"You'd prefer yellow spandex?"

John D:

>I'm summarizing (admittedly what I believed from having read others' posts) to be the argument that the early covers of Emma Frost were offputting to the target market. If I understand correctly, Craig, Tim, Luigi and Starwolf have all expressed this. (Correct me if I'm wrong, guys). Hence my words "I think the argument is..." And I produced links to the early and recent covers to let posters make up their own minds.
>If I'm wrong that that's not the argument we're having, then I've completely misunderstood--but I'd like others to tell me that's not the conflict being discussed rather than just you, please.

Nope, that's the discussion. I agree with you wholeheartedly.Attracting younger female readers may have been the plan according to the company, but looking at those covers both then and now... they executed it poorly.

C'mon Luigi,

super heroes look cool in costumes because it's not real. That's the joy & beauty of the costume. How would you like it if DC put Superman in a leather outfit, with no cape, no colors.

Or Spiderman.

Costumes are part of the magic.

The problem is when silly costumes are created that don't fit the character. Example, the Punisher with the big white belt & boots or Cable when he had all that padding.

provided that the costume isn't to complicated & it fits the character, i say everyone should wear costumes.

Joe V.

Sorry to start off on these message boards by being such a pathetic fanboy, but ...

Peter David sure as hell did a fine job with Spidey 2099, didn't he? He and Rick Leonardi were sort of a dream team in comics in the mid-90's. Ten years later, and I'm still uncertain about who I love the most - David/Leonardi or Chuck Dixon and Graham Nolan, another dream team.

Talk about taking words and pictures and creating a reality that casual readers could identify with ... Vulture 2099 still makes me laugh (and shudder), Tyler Stone still makes me suspicious of my employers, and Lyla still makes me wish I lived 50 years from now.

Before you dismiss this as yet another fanboy rambling on about Spidey, I guess I should say that I am a little skeptical about some of your political views.

With that said, though, Mr. David, thanks for the memories. Your art was really important to me during some vulnerable times in my youth.

Joe V: C'mon Luigi, super heroes look cool in costumes because it's not real. That's the joy & beauty of the costume. How would you like it if DC put Superman in a leather outfit, with no cape, no colors. Or Spiderman. Costumes are part of the magic.
Luigi Novi: I didn’t say anything about Supes or Spidey, and in fact, I did say:

“Many, if not most superheroes should abandon their dumb-looking spandex…”

I except Superman, Batman, and Spidey from this. When a character’s costume is an integral part of a character’s mythology, it has to stay. Same goes for Captain America, arguably Wonder Woman, etc. I also except characters where the costume or some aspect of their look is functional, or otherwise fits in well with their habitat, like Cyke’s visor, Ka-Zar’s animal skins, Ghost Rider’s outfit, Punisher’s skull body armor, etc.

Joe V: The problem is when silly costumes are created that don't fit the character. Example, the Punisher with the big white belt & boots or Cable when he had all that padding.
Luigi Novi: Precisely. Ennis changing everything to black except the skull was the perfect tweak.

John Dibello,
If you would actually take the time to look over previous postings, my post about you "speaking for EVERYBODY" was based on the following statement by you:
"I think the argument is not that the recent issues
will turn off female readers as much as it is that the early issues, with their gynecology-and- mammary oriented poses were emabarrassing for EVERYONE to buy..."
THAT"s what I was responding to..I wasn't embarrassed, neither were many of the people at the comic shops I frequent the most, and certainly not the people lined up at Greg Horn's table at Wizard World East.
That's all I was addressing. Look back on it and see why I responded the way I did. Can you see now why I reacted the way I did. Thanks.

Fred,
Look at the above post. Now, add that to the fact that I started this discussion by bringing up the "Emma Frost" title in the first place and then responding to a poster making a throwaway comment about how "sleazy" the Greg Horn covers were/are, and I am quite certain what the "discussion" was about. But I understand if you simply can't help yourself. You simply are a clueless pseudo-intellectual who feels free to interject himself in other people's discussions regardless of his knowledge (or lack of) not just the subject matter but the tenor and tone of the debate you are commenting on.
But your toothpick-poking is quite irrelevant.

"Now, add that to the fact that I started this discussion by bringing up the "Emma Frost" title in the first place and then responding to a poster making a throwaway comment about how "sleazy" the Greg Horn covers were/are, and I am quite certain what the "discussion" was about."

Well, THAT'S good, considering that you're now DIVERTING attention AWAY from the matter by discussing the drooling adolescents over at Greg Horn's table. OF COURSE, WIZARD fanboys are going to be getting some signatures on COLLECTIBLES, dude; it helps pay for their overly PRICEY entry fees.

And as far as your "not embarrassed at my local" argument, just how many FEMALES were in attendance when you surveyed the shop? My educated guess: LESS THAN ONE.

Jeez, Jerome, if you weren't SO PREDICTABLE with your KNEE-JERK rationalizations, you'd have realized that my description of Horn's generally SLEAZY female character cover art was HARDLY "throwaway". It's certainly not worthy of an instant dismissal, as other posters' subsequent comments have now frequently MADE MY POINT for me.

And the opinion STANDS, especially since the series appears to be getting CANCELLED as a result of Horn SOFTENING his approach on more recent issues. Thus, teenage boys must be finding BETTER books to whack off to. :)

KET

KET:

"Now, add that to the fact that I started this discussion by bringing up the "Emma Frost" title in the first place and then responding to a poster making a throwaway comment about how "sleazy" the Greg Horn covers were/are, and I am quite certain what the "discussion" was about."

>Well, THAT'S good, considering that you're now DIVERTING attention AWAY from the matter by discussing the drooling adolescents over at Greg Horn's table. OF COURSE, WIZARD fanboys are going to be getting some signatures on COLLECTIBLES, dude; it helps pay for their overly PRICEY entry fees.

>And as far as your "not embarrassed at my local" argument, just how many FEMALES were in attendance when you surveyed the shop? My educated guess: LESS THAN ONE.

>Jeez, Jerome, if you weren't SO PREDICTABLE with your KNEE-JERK rationalizations, you'd have realized that my description of Horn's generally SLEAZY female character cover art was HARDLY "throwaway". It's certainly not worthy of an instant dismissal, as other posters' subsequent comments have now frequently MADE MY POINT for me.

I dunno. If it weren't for his knee-jerk reactions, instant and regular condescending dismissals of others who don't agree with him ("WOW can you say THAT?" "I usually respect your opinions", etc, seem to be the standard answers that show up in his threads at least once a week.) and rationalizations I'd actually be responding to him as I had been planning on when I originally saw an old friend on this board. Guess times and people change.

Jeorme:

>Fred,
Look at the above post. Now, add that to the fact that I started this discussion by bringing up the "Emma Frost" title in the first place and then responding to a poster making a throwaway comment about how "sleazy" the Greg Horn covers were/are, and I am quite certain what the "discussion" was about.

That does not make John D's statement false.

>But I understand if you simply can't help yourself. You simply are a clueless pseudo-intellectual who feels free to interject himself in other people's discussions regardless of his knowledge (or lack of) not just the subject matter but the tenor and tone of the debate you are commenting on.

Let's see. Public forum..... check. Read this thread as it went along in its entirety... check. Response to another poster's question done in a respectful manner ("Nope, that's the discussion. I agree with you wholeheartedly.Attracting younger female readers may have been the plan according to the company, but looking at those covers both then and now... they executed it poorly.")... check.

I replied to John and agreed and added to the discussion by making a very brief statement about goals versus actions taken and how said actions weren't very effective. This is outside of my knowledge, how?

>But your toothpick-poking is quite irrelevant.

My reply was supportive, not poking.

You may want to reread your old replies to me again as I've never insulted you, have actually asked that you stop trying to "poke with a stick" when you've insulted me with no provocation, and lastly after having insults lobbed at me I respond with clear and reasonable posts.... you fail to respond. I've seen you do this repeatedly with others, but it is apparently more pointed with me for whatever reason. Actually, I'm a bit amazed that you are completely unaware of how much you wear this frustation and anger on your sleeve without even an iota of awareness that you do it. Might I suggest that you refrain from responding to my posts as you've publicly stated you were going to do. You know... since they are irrelevant and all.

Since nearly everyone that you've interacted with on PAD's board (including PAD) has "misinterpreted" being insulted by you, is it possible that that issue doesn't wholey lie with the community here?

The only one regularly insulting is you and the shrouded one.... and you go wayyyy off-topic to do it.

Jerome Maida: Fred, ....But I understand if you simply can't help yourself. You simply are a clueless pseudo-intellectual who feels free to interject himself in other people's discussions
Luigi Novi: There's no such thing as "other people's discussions" here, Jerome. This site is dedicated to open discussion by whomever wishes to participate when they visit, and thus, the discussion "belongs" to any such visitor does so. Disagree with Fred's arguments on their merits if you wish, but you do not have any greater claim to the discussion merely because you may have been the first (or one of the first) to initiate it.

Peace. :-)

Y'know, KET, your random capitalization of WORDS with neither apparent rhyme nor REASON gets really DISTRACTING someTIMES, and makes YOUR posts unneceSSARILY HARD to READ...

:)

Luigi,

the city of Novi (pronounced No-Vie) is in Michigan. It's a suburb of Detroit. The name apparently comes from the fact that it was once stop No. VI (6) on the railroad.

Rick

Or don't you believe in redemption? That is interesting.

Well, for starters, I was poking fun at it.

But, since you have an axe to grind with me right now...

Redemption? Frost? Gimme a break. Gen X lasted 75 years with Frost as a headmaster.

But now they have her screwing Cyclops. Yeah, wonderful redemption there.

Well, for starters, I was poking fun at it.

But, since you have an axe to grind with me right now...

Redemption? Frost? Gimme a break. Gen X lasted 75 years with Frost as a headmaster.

But now they have her screwing Cyclops. Yeah, wonderful redemption there.

Yeah, poor Emma...look how he's treated the last few women he's gone to bed with...

Luigi, your reasons for Xmen burnout are valid and very well thought out.I admit i liked the run of Grant Morrison only because he did something or at least attempted something new.Claremont returning did not impress me at all.Many of the problems you have with the Xmen are mainstays of his work in my opinion.I tried out another version of the Xfolks only cause Havok and Rogue
,two of my all time favorites are there but ,i dont think it will be a regular read.
I would like the mutants living "normal"lives and living in society ,wasnt that the point ???Do all of xavier's students become xmen???Why wouldnt some of them become political activists,lawyers,to try to improve the lives and rights of mutants?
The costume thing is another point of yours i appreciate.One of my favorite characters ,the Question only wore a faceless mask,and the gas to fix the mask to his face would darken his clothes and hair color.Very Practical and simplistic.Some of the outfits i see on certain characters just dont make sense to me.
When i was younger i used to play a roleplaying game based on superheroes ,very few of them wore
a costume ,just didnt work for me.
By the way I also agree with Karen the writer is much me important to me than the artist.
JMIICBW:)

Just a quick follow-up. Novi, Michigan is the site of the Motor City Comic Con, which PAD has attended from time to time.

Rick