Am I the only one who would like to bitchslap whoever the idiot is at the WB that came up with "a fresh episode." What, "new" wasn't a good enough word? These are TV programs, for crying out loud, not produce.
Anyway, onward. Spoilers abound so, y'know, if you're in England, don't come whining to me about it because I just warned you.
SMALLVILLE: The continuing (albeit somewhat endless) subplot with the Indian caves takes an interesting turn as a superpowered dagger falls into the hands of a poor schmuck who fancies himself his people’s savior…unaware that he’s fate’s pawn in a larger story in which Clark and (presumably) Lex are the key players. Meanwhile Lana, apparently inspired by the last night’s episode of “Friends” (kidding, I’m kidding, people, it was a joke) screws her courage to the sticking place and prepares to depart for Paris, to the regret of our both heroes and future villains, and the joy of fans who have become weary of the hamster wheel that is the Lana/Clark relationship.
An extremely solid outing, with excellent acting all around, a tightly written story, and some fantastic touches: The horrified reaction of Martha Kent as she skids in what is obviously a pool of Clark’s blood on the floor; the golden glow from Jonathan’s hands suggesting yellow sunlight energy is being channeled through him (courtesy of Jor-El) in order to save Clark; the fact that Clark had a red blanket draped around his shoulders. And I have to give a shout out of thanks to the writers for finally, FINALLY constructing a life for Pete Ross (has his voice changed? It sounds an octave deeper) that’s separate and away from Clark and danger, especially since I’ve been bitching about it for much of the season.
But the crowning achievement was the final scene with Clark and Lex. It should always be remembered that even the greatest villains in the world don’t go around thinking, “I’m evil.” There’s always rationalization, always some internal logic as to why their actions are warranted. Here, in a brilliant exchange with his future foe, Lex lays out the beginnings of what we know will be his eventual rationale as to why Superman must be combated and/or destroyed. And the most frightening thing is…it makes SO MUCH SENSE. I found myself nodding and saying, “Yeah…okay…that actually sounds kind of reasonable.” And this is LEX LUTHOR we’re talking about.
Great job all around.
ANGEL: I’ve watched the episode twice and I’m still not sure how I feel about it. I think this is one of those instances where our heroes take a well written, well paced, and extremely humorous journey of discovery…but at the end, we kind of regret their having taken it.
Angel and Spike, like Joe Pesci with fangs, travel to Rome to recover a head in a duffle bag that will stop a potential demon war in LA (don’t ask). But they have even bigger concerns: Their arch nemesis, the Immortal, a shady and mysterious figure (but not, presumably, Vandal Savage or even Christopher George) who has loomed so large in both their lives that neither of them have mentioned him in eight years, is dating Buffy. In the course of the episode we learn that whenever they and the Immortal cross paths, the Immortal bags their girls (Darla and Dru in cameo, never kinkier) and makes our vamps look like schmucks. And this go around is no exception. Meantime, Fred’s parents show up looking for their daughter, who has undergone some changes, what with having died and having a goddess set up shop in her body.
Now…I know the writers were up against it with (a) the sudden cancellation and (b) the absence of Sarah Michelle. I know they had to scramble. I can accept our guys chasing around after Buffy like lovesick puppies; certainly Spike has been love’s bitch before, so there’s no reason Angel can’t be as well. I can accept a humorous outing with our guys hopelessly out of their element. I can accept that even champions have off days. I’ll give them the notion that Angel’s never mentioned his arch nemesis before. Heck, I’ll even accept that Andrew has morphed into an Italian James Bond and is overcompensating for his thinly repressed homosexuality by dating two gorgeous women. I’ll toss in all that AND a bag of chips. And, hey, you hadda love the Rome office of Wolfram and Hart (“Gypsies! Ptui! We shall speak of them no more!”)
But here’s the thing: Having your heroes be THAT ineffectual just isn’t fun.
They’re our guys, our protagonists. They’re our POV. They’re who we’re emotionally invested in, and they spent an entire hour not only accomplishing absolutely nothing, but coughing up every ball they got their hands on. Watching this episode was like watching your home team not only get completely blown off the field by the visiting team, but then being forced to watch the visiting team TP the home team locker room.
I understand Mutant Enemy faced a massive challenge resolving the Buffy-Angel-Spike triangle with no next season to count on and no SMG. And I suppose they did the best they could with the crap hand they were dealt. But even ANGELUS was made to look like a complete dolt, and in the history of the series, NOBODY does that. The Angelus we’ve seen would never have left Rome without the score being settled somehow. He’s a creature of total obsessions, and once the Immortal was in his sights, he simply would not have stopped. Ever. Not ever. Nothing short of being dusted would have deterred him.
Of course, the greatest revenge Spike and Angel can have is to leave the Immortal to Buffy. The woman sucks the testosterone out of every male she meets. He’ll wind up whimpering and pining for her while the vamps just laugh at him.
But what saved this episode from descending into pure camp? Wes and Illyria, whom I have been disdainfully referring to as Seven of Fred, but no longer.
Oh my God, did the B plot kick the crap out of the A plot. So she won’t have to deal with the Burkle’s grief, Illyria transforms herself to not only look, but act, like Fred. Now I always liked Amy Acker, but my respect for her talent as an actress has just shot through the roof. She effortlessly switches between "Fred” and Illyria simply through body posture and dropping her voice. Not only were we kept on the edge of our seats wondering if the Burkles would see through the imposture, but the scenes between her and Wes absolutely crackled. The chemistry that’s developed between Acker and Alexis Denisof is a thing of beauty. The notion of Wes on the one hand being appalled by Illyria-as-Fred while, at the same time, being attracted to her—and Illyria’s obvious interest in that attraction—was brilliantly handled. The fact that we’ll never see them again after the next two episodes is one of the most tragic aspects of this woefully premature cancellation.
Re: Angel
Man, Amy Acker has contiued to grow on me. And her transformation from Fred to Illyria has had me really admiring her talents. Anyway, I agree that this week her performance seemed truly authentic. Hope there's a place for her in the "Firefly" flick!
So she won’t have to deal with the Burkle’s grief, Illyria transforms herself to not only look, but act, like Fred.
I think there may possibly be more to it than that -- but my theory relies on extracting the absolute maximum possible spin/retcon from one three-word sentence of Acker's dialogue.
If I'm right, "Fred" has actually been Illyria since we first saw her back in Pylea, or at least was a pre-placed Illyria-in-potential awaiting only a trigger to activate the dormant portion of her personality. And the present Illyria's attraction to Wesley is a natural and mature outgrowth of the Fred-persona's prior attraction to Wesley.
Consider: Fred has progressed from farm girl to exiled kicker-of-butt to dangerous dark avenger. She's acquired a soulmate, to whom she always returns no matter how often separated or temporarily distracted. (Yes, this should be starting to sound familiar.)
So of course, when Wesley asks her for a heartfelt favor, she replies:
[wait for it]
"As you wish."
////
Now do NOT try to tell me that this is not a Princess Bride allusion. The Jossverse writing department is too bright not to have done that consciously, and the parallels are just too tidy.
I like the thought of a Princess Bride allusion not that I think your theory will pan out much in the next two episodes. However, there is alot of similarities so it makes me happy.
I would like to have a copy of the episode, but I didn't tape it, because now I want to go back through and analyze the rest of what was said. For instance, from memory, Wes was upset at her posing as Fred when she told her "never do it again." Which is really similar in intent on buttercup's line "You mocked me once, never do it again -- I died that day!"
Guess I'll have to wait for it to be released on DVD. Fun thoughts if nothing else.
Lana's off to Paris, Rachel was off to Paris, Carrie in Sex And The City went to Paris... what's with the sudden obsession?
ANGEL:
Since the cards have been dealt, we've been promised AN end, but not THE end.
After all, how can you wrap up everything going on in this series in just 2 hours???
My guess (besides the world being saved once again) is that Wesley/"Fred", and Angel/Spike resolve the differences within their 'relationships'.
Meanwhile, anyone have any realistic news on the "Save Angel" campaign results?
SMALLVILLE:
For long time readers and/or continuity buffs, here's a friendly reminder.
There has been much retconning over the course of Superman's life, that nothing should be taken for granted, and DC long ago established that Earth-OMP (Other Media Presentations) is just an alternate dimension (probably now their version of the Twilight Zone annexed to Hypertime) where nothing on the screen affects the books.
So if the Post Crisis/Zero Hour comic book continuity remains relatively 'intact', before the series finale, Clark does tell Lana EVERYTHING, although he still winds up going to Metropolis alone.
Now the biggest mystery in all of this is Chloe.
She has been the one refreshing character in this series. A complete blank slate to work with, nuture, and grow upon. Personally, I think the producers has done an admireable job with her character while working within the context of the Superman 'mythos'.
Now there have been several theories on her 'final fate', running the gamit between her dying before graduation to going to Metropolis on her own and assuming the identity of Lois Lane.
With Lana potentially "out of the picture" (in Paris), I would like to see a Chloe/Clark relationship blossom in Season 4.
Granted, the outcome to the whole series is going to be worth about as much as the series finale to "Friends", but it would make for more interesting episodes in my opinion.
Thanks much for the synopsis of Smallville since i missed it this week.Definitely want to catch the repeat for the Lex justification of the destruction of Clark in the future you referenced.
ANGEL:I loved this episode,the chemistry between Spike and Angel never ceases to amuse me.I disagree with looking like shmucks on this point.
As you stated being with Buffy takes the testostorone right out of you .(Riley got out in time huh?)So the ineptitude may have been more about the obsession with the Buffster than thier own incompetence.
I agree that Angelus was not up to his normal self but maybe the Immortal was just that much better.Favorite lines "Drusilla and Darla concurrently? You never let me get that."
"Safe harbor to nuns ??He cant do that! Thats your bag mate"Finally the priceless Angel bitching about Buffy being with a guy who may or may not have a soul and may or may not be evil.Funny stuff!
The Fred/Wes subplot was sooo good and a big reason why i really am going to hate the show going bye bye.The subtle way his eyes went from surprise to utter hatred when she walked out was
brilliant.If Alexis Denisof and amy Acker cant find work elsewhere something is wrong.
She is doing an awesome job as Fred/Illyria though it makes you wonder what other abilities she may be hiding,Illyria not Amy.Funny i never noticed how really pretty she is until now.I always thought she was attractive but I guess after her being Illyria you realize how much you miss Fred being around .The final two episodes bettter be good though i cant see how all storylines are wrapped up neatly.
I dunno. Agreed that the Wes/"Fred" material was solid (and Amy Acker really impressed me by being able to switch characters so quickly and with so little outer change), but the Spike/Angel stuff ... ehh. There were moments here and there (the Darla/Dru flashback being the biggest highlight), but I just don't care enough about either character's Buffy obsession to get into a show which whacks us on the head about it.
The A-plot was also such a standalone that we were almost wondering if it was written and planned for significantly earlier in the season, then rewritten and tossed in at the end once it was clear they wouldn't get SMG.
I'll also admit that once Spike's jacket got hit by the explosion, I was hoping he might actually lose it, so that we'd have some sort of end-of-an-era thing happening. Nope, just a gag.
Sigh. At least we didn't get the resolution I was fearing, namely that the Immortal actually ran the Rome division of W&H. Or worse, that he was Andrew.
TWL
I don't know if this episode really belongs so late in the final season, but it was damn funny, and I loved it. I didn't pick at holes in it beacuse I was too busy watching a damn good show and being entertained.
If it weren't for the fact that in the back of my m,ind I know that every episode is one episode closer to no episodes, I would have loved it. But with things being As They Are I want a homerun with bases loaded every time (which is not realistic, I know).
But it did give us a geekdom catchphrase that will linger for years (unless there are gypsies present).
Some folks have complained about Andrew's sudden change in, um, preferences. Hey, it was ok with Willow but once gay never back? C'mon, give the guy a break. Hell, if Italian women look half as hot as the ones we saw, Richard Simmons would be tempted to take a walk on the wild side.
PAD,
You are not the only one totally irritated by the WB's new tagline campaign of "Fresh Episodes".
I do my own weekly online column, and it this week's edition I included my thoughts on that ridiculous new thing they are doing.
If you want to check out what I wrote, It's Item #8 in the TV/Film section. I provided the URL with my info for this post.
Oops. Forgot the link doesn't show up if I don't save the personal info. The link is http://www.simplyjd.com/cpr/main.shtml
Re: “Angel”, seeing "Fred" again was nice, but I have mixed feelings as to whether Illyria’s impersonation was a cruelty or a kindness. On the one hand, it spared Roger and Trish Burkle from learning their daughter was dead-- and more to the point, they didn’t run into Illyria as Illyria, which would have been a much harder blow. On the other hand, sooner or later, they’ll learn the truth, unless Illyria’s biography will one day include the line “and who disguised as Fred Burkle, mild mannered scientist for Angel Investigations/Wolfram and Hart”, which I somehow doubt.
I’ve never seen any of Fred in Illyria (except when she speaks in Fred’s voice, of course), or vice versa, as in the case of Amy Acker’s portrayal of “Fred” last night. Lesser actors playing two different roles aren’t always able to keep one from spilling over into the other; but in an instant-- in the initial confrontation scene with Wesley-- Acker transformed from Fred to Illyria, changing not only her voice, but also her body language.
I imagine, however, that it’s harder for an actor to play a character that can’t act. e.g. Alyson Hannigan playing Willow playing vamp Willow badly.
Regarding “Smallville”, I liked the episode. I also liked Lex’s comments at the end that perhaps the so-called bad guy of the legend, the friend who becomes the enemy, is actually the hero of the story. What I like about them is that it suggests that Lex is A) familiar with enough with the legend (re: the disintegrating knife) to recognize the possibility that he will fill that role; and B) that he suspects Clark may, in fact, be the nominal hero of the legend. It’s almost as if he’s saying that if it were the two of them, Lex would see it as almost a duty to keep Clark in check.
That further suggests that the Lex of the Smallville universe will be neither the bank-robbing scientist of the Silver Age, nor the Professor Moriarity-like head of a criminal empire of the Byrne revamp. Perhaps, if Lex
does become president in the Smallville universe,
it’ll be a political/military-based adversarial
relationship (or even a xenophobic "human race vs. the alien" one) rather than a straight law and order hero vs. criminal villain one.
Rick
ANGEL - I think the point of making Angel and Spike so ineffectual in this episode was important. This was an episode that was all about the whole "fragile male ego" concept. Angel and Spike are constantly competing with the Immortal as if Buffy were the prize. And I think most men have trouble dealing with the idea of their exes moving on. Or perhaps they have trouble with the idea of being left behind.
It's interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. While it took Angel three years to form an attachment to Cordelia, it took Buffy less than one to find Riley after Angel left. (Yes, Angel had certain limitations and whatnot--curses and social skills being at the top of that list...) It's like Andrew said, Angel and Spike are chasing their own tails, while Buffy is actually out there living her life. It's like the difference between dogs and cats.
I suppose the only way for Angel and Buffy to end up together... is if Angel stops worrying if he and Buffy will end up together. And if he stops worrying if they end up together, then it doesn't really matter if they *do* end up together, does it? Wasn't that the whole point of Buffy's "cookie dough" speech?
Has Angel even *grown* over the course of the series, or has being a vampire stunted him? Watching Buffy, you can see how strong and confident she's become over the years. How has Angel changed?
Regarding "The Girl In Question."
Wow. I bet this read much better than it played.
Well, at least the Spuffies and the Bangelers will have something to agree about.
Besides thinking that the episode had too many ‘too”s in it; too rushed, too burlesqued, and too many coincidences, it primarily bothered me for two reasons. The first was that having been told to get on with their lives Angel and Spike won’t have the opportunity to do so. Sure, the poofter is going to hop into the sack with Dog Girl, that was in the previews. But with only two episodes left and the need to wrap up enough story lines to provide a good end of season/series finish, nothing much is going to happen in that department. This episode was the final word on one of the most intriguing romantic triangles ever seen on television and it was a pretty limp send off.
Second, what is it with Buffy anyway? It was established pretty early on that she preferred a man with a little monster in him, does she now prefer the monster to the man? Granted we’re told next to nothing about the “Immortal”, just that he seems to enjoy screwing with Angel and Spike in almost every manner possible, but I think I recall a comment about him being soulless. Does anybody else remember Buffy’s rants about not being able to love Spike because he suffered from that little condition?
This storyline reduced Angel and Spike from heroes to buffoons and seriously cheapened Buffy.
The triangle that has replaced it, Fred/Wes/Illyria, was the sole saving grace of the episode, so good that I fast forwarded through the rest to get to it during my second viewing. Illyria’s motivations for her impersonation seem to be multifold, but the question of is she actually interested in Wesley or exploiting a particularly apt avenue for revenge is very intriguing and will provide much dramatic grist for the final story arc.
This has already become one of my favorite Angel episodes. I find it surprising how some people just can't stand their protagonists to be anything but victorious. It's something I've never understood. If only Spike or only Angel had been the 'loser' I can understand it, but it being them both, balanced things out.
And as some pointed out already, it's Buffy. She's always turned these two into mush, and it's no surprise that recognizing themselves in each other, and seeing their current roles of 'has beens' in the Buffster's life hit them hard. Especially since it's the Immortal. As for never having been mentioned before: Get over it. He clearly hadn't been 'invented' then but really, I can see how neither of them would EVER want to mention him.
As for Angelus not stopping before he got the Immortal....well, did it occur to you, Peter, that in the Immortal he truly found his superior? That the guy simly is that much better? Maybe it wasn't a matter of choice.
James and David were brilliant as comedic duo. Their timing and facial expressions had me in stitches. And there are so many quotable lines of dialogue in this one that I don't even know where to start. 'Those were MY nuns!' The 'who saved the world more often' dialogue. Angel trying to get credit for S2's 'Becoming'! Priceless. Angel's cookie dough rant. Spike's reaction to it.
And yes the Wes/Illyria bits were superb as well, in a whole different way. Let me sing Amy's praises as well. Her switching back and forth was almost frightening.
I am going to miss this show terribly.
Oh and Peter, your line about the best revenge is to leave the guy to Buffy was as funny as the ep itself. And very very true!
Great Angel episode.
" I recall a comment about him being soulless."
Not that I recall. And they obviously showed that the Immortal could be a good guy too, since he saved those nuns from Angelus back then.
"This storyline reduced Angel and Spike from heroes to buffoons and seriously cheapened Buffy."
Ludicrous. Nothing in here 'cheapened' Buffy! She has a new boyfriend. That's it! Who likes to play tricks on Angel and Spike. Oooh the evil. Please we know nothing really of the guy except from people who admire him or Angel and Spike who just can't stand him. And why wouldn't Angel and Spike be shown as buffoons? The right girl can turn any guy into an idiot and that was the point here.
Yeah heaven forbid we see our heroes as anything less than absolute gods and winners. Please, if anything this makes them more likable and more 'human'. We all have off days. We've all known that someone who always had one up on us and felt the frustration.
If you want a show were the heroes are so bloody invincible that hardly a punch is ever landed against them, then watch Xena reruns. Or those fake wretling matches. Fortunately Whedon's shows have always been more sophisticated than that childish simplicity of 'good guys always win. Bad guys always fall down.'
: Their arch nemesis, the Immortal, a shady and mysterious figure (but not, presumably, Vandal Savage or even Christopher George) who has loomed so large in both their lives that neither of them have mentioned him in eight years, is dating Buffy.
Buffy was dating Dick Clark?
Now I always liked Amy Acker, but my respect for her talent as an actress has just shot through the roof. She effortlessly switches between "Fred” and Illyria simply through body posture and dropping her voice.
Must agree whole-heartly. I mean, sometimes I even have trouble believing the same actress played both. But it made me miss Fred.
However, on a possible plus note: Illyria was able to play Fred perfectly, which Fred may not be as "gone" as she stated in earlier episodes.
If these Shows are all FRESH now. Does that make the reruns stale or Rotten perhaps?
For a while there, I thought the Immortal referred to Dracula, although it seems pretty clear it isn't (tho t'would have been a nice twist).
This ep of Angel reminded me very much of the Farscape episode where Crichton and D'Argo get rolled in a bar, and go chasing after Chianna and the screaming girl, who've hooked up with the local aristo. Partly plot, partly throbbing dance music... but it had the same goofy vibe (although nobody woke up wearing fishnets in Angel).
On the B plot, I'm amazed at how little else Amy Acker has done, according to imdb.com. Somebody ought to be hiring her. Perhaps she does stage, like another genre fave Tim Choate?
On WB's "Fresh" -- "fresh" wouldn't be so bad, but it's "FurESCH" -- kind of obscene in the pronunciation, really annoying. Lastly, speaking of fresh/new... whatever happened to reruns? It's always alternative/reality in the off months, and I'm not sure I'll ever catch the Tru finale.
ANGEL:
I agree with so many people here that my post has turned into a grab bag of thoughts/reactions:
I liked the episode. I just didn't like where it ran. I would've liked to have seen this much earlier in the season. I, like another poster, couldn't really bring myself to enjoy all the laughs and giggles because I knew "Angel" would soon go away. I am sure that when reality sets-- and the box set is eventually released-- I'll really be able to enjoy this particular ep.
But now, except for the more than excellent Fred/Illyria/Wesley scenes, the rest just seems like a mere trifle.
My favorite line, bar none: Spike-- after seeing Drusilla walk in from the other room-- yelling "SON OF A BITCH!"
Another poster on another site said that if James Marsters didn't win a Best Actor or Best Supporting Actor Emmy for that line alone-- then one (or both) of the categories should just simply be discarded. I agree. (Remember, many believe to this day that Cher won Best Actress for "Moonstruck" simply because of the well timed slap of Nic Cage's face, followed by her immortal "Snap out of it!" line.)
And for the poster who asked: If you go to Whedonesque.com-- It seems that Joss himself is nay-saying the TV Movie theory/rumors... At least for for now. (This interview also ran on SciFi.com but contains FINAL SHOW SPOILERS so I stopped reading!)
Peter, expert timing on the Amy Acker shout out. What a phenomenally lovely, extremely talented person she is. I also agree wholeheartedly with Buffy being a testosterone sucker. When both Spike & Angel finally realized it was time to move on too-- I thought, "Good. Get over her already." Realistically, how many possible STD's (and their recombinant variations) could the woman have after sleeping with Angel, Spike and now someone called "The Immortal"? Riley's penicillin bill alone must be enormous!
Finally, how would you like to be the actress/stuntwoman whose resume now includes this credit:
ANGEL / Warner Bros. / Back of Buffy's Head
?
SMALLVILLE: Definitely a GREAT episode. The Lex/Lana exchnges were great. I hope the WB writers don't cop out and keep Lana in Smallville. Yes, I love looking at Kristin Kreuk as much as any guy, but she and Clark and the show all need to MOVE ON! There's been enough will they/won't they/You can tell me anything Clark/No, I can't Lana/ What's with him anyway/ I wish I was with her episodes to last a lifetime. ENOUGH!
Especialy with everything else that can be explored. Dr. Swan. The evolution of Lex into the villain we all know and love. The manipulations of Lionel. The connection between Jonathan Kent and Jor-El. And so much more.
Notice I didn't mention Chloe or Pete Ross. There's a good reason for that, which is that right now I don't care about either of them! I don't think it's either Alison Mack's or Sam Jones' fault, either. Neither of their characters are given anything REALLY meaningful to do. Pete can use his truck to save Clark and Perry White? Big deal. It could have been a stranger driving by for as much as he's been fleshed out as a character, and not a plot device anyone ca fill.
Pete gets the most stilted, Shatner-esque lines. "YOU JUST DON"T STOP, DO YOU?!" was supposed to be dramatic, but almost made me laugh. What is his problem with Lex anyway? He might be jealous a bit, but he didn't even care at all about the shock treatment, which doesn't make him exactly heroic. And what about the rift with Clark that grew as a result of his drag racing. It's like, "Forget it. It's over. They're buddies again." Nothing Pete says or does has any lasting consequences, which makes it difficult to become invested in anything he...well, says or does.
As for Chloe...Well, if she's really the hard-nosed reporter the writers are trying to portray her as, there is NO WAY she would constantly - and immediately - take grief from everyone and automatically forgive everyone.
Clark constantly treats her like crap, whether he mans to or not? Sure, no problem. This is the only instance where it is even remotely justified, since most of us have done strange things and bit the bulet for someone we loved or were even infatuated with.
But Lana looks at her personal stuff when borrowing her computer, and all is automatically forgiven? That definiteky caled for either A.) a "Dynasty"-esque catfight or, at the very least, a chill in their friendship for a couple of episodes.
And Pete blasts her and insults her as if she were a manipulative whore, and she makes like Caroline Ingalls at the end?
This is supposed to be a "strong" woman?
Personally, that's another reason I would like to see Lana heading to see the Eiffel Tower. Maybe the extra oxygen could breathe some life into Pete and Chloe and make them actual characters that we can care about.
But I'll believe it when I see it, or when I DON'T see Kristin Kreuk name or face in the opening credits.
As for the ending, words cannot describe how perfect it was. Michael Rosenbaum is awesome! Go, Lex, go!
Great Angel episode, but it sure does continue the tradition of Spike and Angel never having consistant accents in the flashbacks. DB started out with a halfway decent Irish accent for a change, then it seemed to come and go... and JM didn't even seem to be trying to sound British.
Regarding 'Angel' - Must have been my sleep-deprived brain, but I kept coming up with ideas for the identity of "The Immortal" just to amuse myself. One thought was "Hmm... An immortal who sleeps with every woman he meets? Connor MacCloud?"
The more ridiculous notion that made me giggle anyway was 007. Think about it: if you put all his films into the same coherent universe, the only way you can write off people accepting the fact that he not only stays young, but looks like different people every few years is to assume that whenever a 007 dies, a new one immediately takes his identity. (Kinda like The Phantom) Which of course would give one the illusion of immortality without going into something like 13 regenerations for 007. Yeah, I know. It's silly, but that's the only other "seemingly indestructible, immortal guy who bags all the women" that I could think of.
I'll... Go and get some rest now and leave you all alone.
Will,
An alternative suggestion is that the Doctor has suddenly become one randy little bugger. :-)
Don't look at me -- you're the one who mentioned regenerations...
TWL
Smallville: The 'Will she or won't she' bit of Lana going to Paris is getting annoying. So is the dragging out of a relationship for her and Clark. I am excited to see what is coming up, particularly with the 'blonde female stranger' that comes to take Clark home. And I think Pete and Chloe need more plots to flesh out the characters.
Buffy: Remember on Highlander: The Series how some episodes were more humorous like when Roger Daltry's Fitz was paired up with Adrian Paul's Duncan MacLeod? This episode reminded me of that as I watched Plot A with Spike and Angel. Hmm...maybe the Immortal is Duncan or Conner MacLeod? Nah...ladies man skills would be more up Juan Sanchez Villa-Lobos Ramirez's alley. Plot B was the far more powerful story, though, and I agree with everyone on Ms. Acker's skills.
> But what saved this episode from descending into pure camp? Wes and Illyria, whom I have been disdainfully referring to as Seven of Fred, but no longer.
Actually, I saw more Seven of Nine in Illyria here than in past weeks, with the bit at the end where Illyria (her voice/Fred's form), started talking about "wish[ing] to explore it further," which put me in mind of the one where Kim had a crush on 7.
> However, on a possible plus note: Illyria was able to play Fred perfectly, which Fred may not be as "gone" as she stated in earlier episodes.
I was thinking the same thing - maybe Fred's still in there (mind & soul), and Illyria was tapping into her to do the Illyfred bit. That was more than fragments whatever happens...
Of course, if that's true, since there would seem to be no prospect of Fred getting dominance over Illyria, nor of Illyria leaving the body and Fred surviving, maybe she'd be better off dead and gone.
Still, the way they seemed to go "she's not only dead, but her immortal soul was destroyed" always seemed slightly overdone to me.
First off, I agree with PAD, Lex's last lines were wonderful. No villain ever sees him or herself as a villain. One of the scariest things I ever read in college world history was the fact that the crew in GErmany actually viewed themselves as the heros of the German race (plus, when they went home at night most of them were no different then any other father returning home from work. We want our villains to be monsters. The frightening part is that sometimes they aren't).
As for the rest of the episode, I do have to disagree. First PAD is right to say they have dragged the CLark/Lana relationship out ad nausum (sp?). However, I think the writers miss the point of Lana. She does serve a purpose in helping clark become Superman. It has always bothered me that her in a medium that was highly repetitive (the comics) that Lana was even created. And, Yet, as I got older, her pupose become clearer and why writers struggled with her over the years (remember the old fifties comics where her and Lois would fight over who Superman loved more?). I think Lana represents the Penelope to Clark's Odysseus. Even though the comics force us to be stuck in Clark's middle phase, in the end (this is why I liked Byrne's first Generations series where the characters aged in real time)in the end Lana and Clark wind up together after Lois has surved her pupose.
In the sereies the current Clark looks as if he is heading to a major paranoic split. Even though it will work well in creating two identities different from the Calrk of Smallville, I think both will wind up masked.
Lana provides the acceptance he needs to smooth out that transition into Superman. That and the other big distinction between Lana and Lois is that Lana loves the man; Lois loves the super.
I'm sorry I strayed from the episode, but I had to speak my peace about Lana. Peter, thank you for giving out the first reasonable explanation on Pa Kent's healing. I don't buy the whole thing because throughout the show Clark has been able to heal himself, quite rapidly, no matter the injury. To me, that was too inconsistent. Look at the beginning of this season, he gets shot with a high caliber kryptonite bullet thorugh his hand and shoulder. Once it is removed, Clark's body heals itself. Why not now?
For the record the only mention of the Immortal being souless was by Angel in the context of "he may be evil or not,he may have a soul or not".Which i took as a moment of ironic humor for him to complain about the Immortals' possible faults considering her relationship with him and Spike.
My only question is can i get a job at the Rome
branch of Wolfram and Hart???The boss there was HOT!!!:)
It should always be remembered that even the greatest villains in the world don’t go around thinking, “I’m evil.”
Yeah, just ask any Democrat!
I think it's too bad that one of the greatest love triangles in T.V history has to end this way. Whether you rooted for Angel or Spike, you have to have hoped Buffy would have ended up with one of them. However,I do realize there might be a movie someday. As for the immortal, I think it would be interesting if it was Vandal Savage, picturing an Angel/Spike Flash team-up or two. Personally I think Buffy probably will go back to Angel If he still wants her. Personally, I was kind of hoping Spike would get over Buffy and go for the italian boss of Wolfram and Hart. That woman was mega hot!
I think it's too bad that one of the greatest love triangles in T.V history has to end this way. Whether you rooted for Angel or Spike, you have to have hoped Buffy would have ended up with one of them. However,I do realize there might be a movie someday. As for the immortal, I think it would be interesting if it was Vandal Savage, picturing an Angel/Spike Flash team-up or two. Personally I think Buffy probably will go back to Angel If he still wants her. Personally, I was kind of hoping Spike would get over Buffy and go for the italian boss of Wolfram and Hart. That woman was mega hot!
I loved the Angel episode. The Fred/Wes stuff is so painful at times. Alexis Denisoff is incredible at conveying silent grief on his face.
The Angel/Spike stuff was fun. You can really tell David Boreanaz and James Marsters enjoy playing off each other and it was a nice little break after the heavy episodes we've had since Smile Time. I miss the DS9/Highlander comedies, so I got a kick out of the two champions being goofy.
I absolutely Hated Angel. The only thing I liked about it (apart from Amy's performance) is they pretty much spat all over the Buffy Angel 'shippers.
It's one thing to have failures and even comedic ones but these guys were totally inept. They were getting foiled by a game of keepaway!
Also whatever happened to the we don't trust you bit?
"It's interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. " oh please! Buffy's a codependant. She doesn't move on so much as latch on to a guy. You think it's a coincidence that every guy she's had a relationship with has been older than her? Riley's was a TA which means he's be a minimum of 3 years more likely 4 or 5. And this is the third relationship she's had with a long lived superhuman with questuionable morals. Think maybe she has some serious issues
Buffy's relationship with Spike was never healthy, yet she constantly defended him even after the attepmted rape.
You know what could have made the show work. Put Buffy with xander see how they react.
PAD made the best point when he mentioned that Angelus would never ever let the immortal humiliate him like that. Darla or no Darla.
This episode sucked big time. Although the conversations between Angel and Spike were hilariously funny from time to time the main story was terrible. From day one Buffy never wanted nothing anything more then a normal life. The ending from season seven finally opened up that possibility for her and the first thing she does is boink the first supernatural creature that comes along? come on. I get that she is moving on with her life and that she might have a new boyfriend but could anybody please explain to me why he couldn't have been regular guy? The effect on Angel and Spike wouldn't have been any different. Besides Buffy takes relationships rather seriously and has shown in the past not have a high regard for womanizers. And although we do not know alot about the immortal it is clear that he sleeps around alot. From the comment Andrew made about her loving both you can conclude that she knows about Spike being back yet she doesn't come and see him or even give a call? Everything is so out of charachter lately that i realy think it is time to put a end to it before it gets any worse. I know SMG wasn't available for the role but i'd rather have this Buffy/Angel/Spike relationship unresolved then blowing it of like this.
From the Italians standpoint this certainly wasn't very flattering. For the record i am Dutch myself. One of the things that i liked about the shows was that it tried to eliminate prejudice. this one did the exact opposite.
As commented before the only saving grace of the episode where the Fred/Wesley scenes that were great.
This episode sucked big time. Although the conversations between Angel and Spike were hilariously funny from time to time the main story was terrible. From day one Buffy never wanted nothing anything more then a normal life. The ending from season seven finally opened up that possibility for her and the first thing she does is boink the first supernatural creature that comes along? come on. I get that she is moving on with her life and that she might have a new boyfriend but could anybody please explain to me why he couldn't have been regular guy? The effect on Angel and Spike wouldn't have been any different. Besides Buffy takes relationships rather seriously and has shown in the past not have a high regard for womanizers. And although we do not know alot about the immortal it is clear that he sleeps around alot. From the comment Andrew made about her loving both you can conclude that she knows about Spike being back yet she doesn't come and see him or even give a call? Everything is so out of charachter lately that i realy think it is time to put a end to it before it gets any worse. I know SMG wasn't available for the role but i'd rather have this Buffy/Angel/Spike relationship unresolved then blowing it of like this.
From the Italians standpoint this certainly wasn't very flattering. For the record i am Dutch myself. One of the things that i liked about the shows was that it tried to eliminate prejudice. this one did the exact opposite.
As commented before the only saving grace of the episode where the Fred/Wesley scenes that were great.
I guess I'm the only one who's ah[[y that Buffy wasn't actually in it. I've always found the character way too self righteous and she plays the victim far too much, even more so whenever she appears on Angel. Buffy is probable my second least favourite JW character, behind only Kennedy.
For a while there, I thought the Immortal referred to Dracula, although it seems pretty clear it isn't (tho t'would have been a nice twist).
Just as an aside, anyone interested in a short, post-season 7 Buffy/Dracula story should check out the fourth issue of Dark Horse's recently-completed Tales of the Vampires mini-series. Heck...check out the whole thing. (So far, my personal favorite story is Ben Edlund's closing chapter to #4.)
Ron,
Get a grip, will you please? I'm half Italian (father's side) and I found the scenes in Italy to be pretty funny. It might actually help if you stated what you found so offensive.
This is the same kind of oversensitivity that has people crying "victim" over the "stereotypical" portrayal of Italians in "The Sopranos", which I enjoy personally, and so does every other Italian I know. They think it's a lot of fun.
Of course, if you're determined to find prejudice in something, you undoubtedly will. Just don't think the objects of your concern share it or even need it.
Oh, yeah, count me as yet another voice screaming that the Italian mama was absolutely, incredibly HOT!
Jerome,
I wouldn't say that the Italian scenes were offensive, but I found most of them way too over-the-top to be funny. The "gypsies" line was a prominent exception, but it was very much an exception and not the rule.
Different senses of humor, I guess.
(I also don't get the "that boss was hot!" mantra that's being repeated all over the place: falling out of her dress, yes, "hot" not especially.)
TWL
What I don't like is that instead of saying "Grr, arrgh" that little demon says "Hi, I'm Alexis Bledel - Watch Gilmore Girls!"
And why is Andrew straight now? That's just dumb.
RK
There is a thing called bisexuality. But just going off Andrew's devout adoration to Warren...I don't think that makes him gay. Just very very attached. Very very needy.
Contrary to popular opinion I enjoyed all of last weeks's Angel. The "A" plot was supposed to be a Whedonverse version of a farce and it accomplished that beautifully. From the Italian Wolfram & Hart CEO's over the top mannerisms to the scene with Angel and SPike chasing the sports car on a moped, I cracked up at all of it.
As for Buffy's relationship with the Immortal, I wasn't too bothered by it. Taking just the information that was given to us in the episode we can safely assume that the immortal is incredibly well liked by human and demon both and his previous dealings with Spike and Angel were when they were souless monsters which more than likely made him the "good guy".
Besides Andrew stated they were just dating and that Buffy wasn't in love with the guy so its not a serious relationship, just Buffy having fun.
Maybe nobody mentioned this because it's so incredibly obvious but I don't think that Andrew's whole monologue about letting it go and moving on was really from Andrew to Angel and Spike....
As for Andrew getting "straightened" out, I can speak as a straight man who is treated constantly like a gay man that beautiful women *love* their gay male friends and they've even very touchy-feely together. Maybe what we were seeing was the beginning of a "Girls' Night Out."
On the other hand, the point of Andrew's speech was that people can change so another possibility is that Andrew was providing the proof in more ways than putting on a tux.
Last, I was also disappointed by the idea of Buffy getting into a relationship with another bad guy. (And the Immortal, while supposedly charming was no doubt a bad guy...) I don't think that it *has* been established that Buffy needs a little monster in her man. I think that was from a season where Buffy was going through a stage of low self-esteem and self-punishment. I think it might have been more effective (and even more crushing to their male egos) if Buffy hooked up with someone like Superman (substitute Clark from "Smallville" for you non-comics types...)or Captain America. Someone as legendarily good as Angelus was bad. Think of the jealousy, the shame and the mixed feelings that Spike and Angel would have from wishing an end to Buffy's relationship with a man who was clearly better than they are.
I had no problem with Angel and Spike's impotency as heroes... that's the power of women for you.
jasonk posted:
""It's interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. " oh please! Buffy's a codependant. She doesn't move on so much as latch on to a guy. You think it's a coincidence that every guy she's had a relationship with has been older than her? Riley's was a TA which means he's be a minimum of 3 years more likely 4 or 5. And this is the third relationship she's had with a long lived superhuman with questuionable morals. Think maybe she has some serious issues"
Well, let's see: Hank Summers seriously became an absentee father after his divorce from Joyce, her first watcher (from the movie) was somewhat brusque and ended up being killed rather quickly, Giles betrayed her more than once, and most of the other male authority figures in her life have turned out to be either evil (the Mayor, "Ted") or at the least, weasels (Principal Snyder).
Any wonder she might have father issues and thus seek out older men?
""It's interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. " oh please! Buffy's a codependant. She doesn't move on so much as latch on to a guy. You think it's a coincidence that every guy she's had a relationship with has been older than her? Riley's was a TA which means he's be a minimum of 3 years more likely 4 or 5. And this is the third relationship she's had with a long lived superhuman with questuionable morals. Think maybe she has some serious issues"
See, I'd always viewed Buffy as more of a Borderline personality, drawing people in and then defenses coming up, pushing them away while pining for them.
""It's interesting that while both Angel and Spike have been hung up on the same girl for years, Buffy herself has always displayed the ability to move on with her life. " oh please! Buffy's a codependant. She doesn't move on so much as latch on to a guy. You think it's a coincidence that every guy she's had a relationship with has been older than her? Riley's was a TA which means he's be a minimum of 3 years more likely 4 or 5. And this is the third relationship she's had with a long lived superhuman with questuionable morals. Think maybe she has some serious issues"
I have to agree with that sentiment. Buffy consistantly goes for the daddy-figure in nearly every guy she's hooked up with.
Oh, and someone please shoot the guy who came up with the "fresh" line. It's gotten really stale, really fast.
I didn't read every comment, so forgive me if someone else made this analogy:
Watching Angel and Spike get trounced at every turn reminded me of the Bugs Bunny episodes where he was on the receiving end of someone else's wit, like Cecil the Turtle or the Gremlin. I didn't like it as a kid, but I understand it more now. There's always a faster draw.
Mr. David has commented upon how the few Buffy characters that have been mentioned during this season of Angel seem to be acting out of character in the past. I think we should not be trying to look at Buffy's behaviour in this episode and trying to analyze it, but rather regard it as simply poor story telling.
I had made the early comment that this story "cheapened" Buffy. I should clarify that I did not mean this in any sexual terms, but rather as a caring individual, traits that I believe she has aptly demonstrated. While I accept the very slim possiblity that she may have no idea that Spike is alive, it wouldn't be the first time information has been kept from her for 'her own good', I have always had problems with the "we don't trust you" explanation for her complete lack of contact with Angel.
She wouldn't cut off a person that she cared about because of them going 'evil'. Her behaviour with Willow in Season Six and Angelus in Season Two demonstrates this. At least she wouldn't in her own series.
I believe this represents a tendency among the writers of Buffy/Angel to minimize/brutalize the characters that remain perpetually off screen. The one time that I can remember seeing Hank Summers on screen, at the beginning of Season Two, he seemed to be an individual who truly loved his daughter and was attempting to overcompensate for his absense with material goods. Later, when the need to prevent his return to seek custody of his 'second' daughter, Dawn, which would have complicated the Glory storyline needlessly, his character shifted into it's final womanizing, uncaring state.
It sounds like Buffy has followed in her father's footsteps via writers manipulation.
I assume that this episode is going to have ramifications over the last two of this season and the elimination of Buffy from both Angel and Spike's aspirations/hopes will probably bear very strongly in the outcome of this storyline.
As far as Smallville and Angel goes, last Wednesday night was the worst night ever in the History of the series!
First Smallville:
I think they should rename the series. Yeah, why not! Let's call it Fawcettville!
See that cave? It has nothing to do with Krypton! (or the Fortress of Solitude!)
That's the Rock of Eternity!!!
The paintings on the wall? Magic!
The way they move around... Magic!
How they got there... Magic!
The way the key disappeared... Magic!
How it showed up in Swan's hands... Magic!
How Pa'Kent got Powers... Magic!
The knife... Magic!
How it pierced Clark's abdomen... Magic!
How Pa'Kent healed him... Magic!
The reason Kryptonite didn't work against the bad guy... Magic!
Do I need to go on? Fine, I will...
THAT'S NOT JOR-EL! That's the WIZARD SHAZAM!!! (after all, he is omnipresent, he gives powers, he takes powers and he lives in a cave!)
Lex Luthor? I'm thinking Sivana!
(At least that way you can justify the villain knowing Billy Batson is really Capt.Marvel; because after all is said and done with this series how can Lex Luthor not know that Clark Kent is Superman? Concussion number 257, perhaps?)
Perry White? More like Uncle Dudley (if you remember the drunken Ordway version!)
More Proof?
Fine, next week MARY MARVEL shows up!
'Nuff said!
Angel:
This should've been (and stayed) the long lost episode that only the die hard fans who bought the Box set got to see.
I liked the episode, honest I did; but ultimately it was a waste of film. And it knocked the wind out of the series sails. With only two episodes left, I'm sure there were plenty of other things they could've covered, loose threads that they could've tied. Instead they give us an episode that centers around a character that isn't there, that can't show up... that won't show up! So I have to ask? Why bother? Why set your self and your audience up for clear and utter disappointment? Didn't they learn from watching the last season of the X-Files?
Hell, even B5's old Sinclair tape would've been better than doing an episode that yanks your audiences chain from begining to end!
Hell I'll just say it! This episode cut Angel's Balls!!!
It cut Angel's balls from begining to end and they knew it! And they knew they were doing it, and did it anyway!
This episode showed how little faith Mutant Enemy has on Angel as its own independent franshise, that at the end of the series, they still had to tie it to Buffy; only they couldn't because the actress wasn't available, but they did anyway.
And if that weren't enough, they proceeded to emasculate the characters on film too!
Was it funny? Yes. But it was innately unnecessary.
Angel moved on. He did so in season 3. He was done with Buffy, he knew it couldn't be. To claim now that it's her who doesn't want anything to do with him just to get a few laughs is one of the vilest diservices to the character (and tritest plot twist) that I've ever seen since the series started. Angel has never backpedaled from his decision to move on. He even refrained from saying hi, at season 4's Thanksgiving Dinner. They even had conflicting viewpoints regarding the Faith situation. At this point they are more colleages than they are exes.
And Spike? Well, he chose to stay. He CHOSE to let Buffy think he'd died. He could have left for Rome any time he wanted. In fact, it was encourage that he leave. So this latest turn was just plain stupid. An excuse to get a few laughs at the expense of the character's emasculation.
Anyways, here are some other notes...
Wouldn't Angel or Spike take offense at being called Americans?
Andrew you are gay!
Funny, I always thought the offices of Wolfram and Hart would be near if not in the Vatican.
Andrew you are still gay!
Anybody around here thinks that Buffy would run away from a Bar Brawl involving two Vampires and several demons?
As matter of fact, how many people think that Angelus would've slayed every woman that'd ever slept with the Immortal as opposed to trying to have a chat with him?
Did the CEO of Rome branch of Wolfram & Hart say I should keep her breasts? (I swear she did!)
Anyways, this episode was stupid. I blame Gypsies! Ptui! We shall speak of this no more!
Ciao!
Ciao!
Ciao!
Ciao!
Ciao!
Tim,
Re: The Italian mama being hot
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
But, beyond nearly bursting out of her dress 9you make this sound like a bad thing!), what I found attractive about her was :
1.)Her lips
2.) Her attitude
3.) Her accent (mama mia!)
4.) Her curves ( I don't go for the "leggy" supermodels
5.) She had something to "hold on to" ( I definitely don't go for "supermodels" where you can see their ribs! Infinitely unappealing to me!
6.) She was in a position of authority
7.) She was funny
8.) She was sultry
It should always be remembered that even the greatest villains in the world don’t go around thinking, “I’m evil.”
Yeah, just ask any Democrat!"
Yes, you should, because any Democrat will likely tell you that the average Republican isn't evil; just misguided.
PAD
"The paintings on the wall? Magic!
The way they move around... Magic!
How they got there... Magic!
The way the key disappeared... Magic!
How it showed up in Swan's hands... Magic!"
I flip a switch and light appears in a room? Magic!
A box in the room receives images broadcast invisibly through the air? Magic!
I type my comments and they flow across phone lines into some sort of ether where everyone can read them? Magic!
Any sufficiently advanced form of science will seem like magic.
Besides, c'mon--the show's protagonist shoots heat beams out of his eyeballs. Buy the premise, buy the bit.
PAD
red-Ricky,
I think Lex is a little tall to be Sivanna, don't you? :)
A quick question for Mr. David.
I was reviewing some of the comments that I have made on this site and was struck with this thought.
It's very easy for a comment to evolve across the internet. It might go something like this:
So and so posting at the Peter David site thinks that the writing on Angel was good if flawed.
It says at the Peter David site that the writing on Angel isn't good.
Peter David at his site says that the writers on Angel stink.
Having recalled that Mr. David has suffered in the past from comments being taken out of context, I was wondering if he might prefer a bit more judicious editing on our parts before posting.
pgavigan:
>>Having recalled that Mr. David has suffered in the past from comments being taken out of context, I was wondering if he might prefer a bit more judicious editing on our parts before posting.
While this is very considerate in concept, I'd guess that PAD would be abhored at the idea of the posters feeling that they needed to edit their feedback, thoughts or reactions anymore than to be considerate and respectful to others.
Just my immediate response to reading this.... although I'm only guessing as my psychic link with him was broken at some point during his Supergirl run.
Any sufficiently advanced form of science will seem like magic.
Besides, c'mon--the show's protagonist shoots heat beams out of his eyeballs. Buy the premise, buy the bit.
PAD
I am buying the premise, and the premise is supposed to be Superman. But every week I get hit with these deus ex machina solutions... and I'm starting to lose faith in the series (and the writer's abilities to resolve them). If the premise of the series were Shazam I'd be on board. But as it stands, I think the writers are using shady science (or magic) to hide sloppy writing.
Sure the protagonist shoots beams out of his eyeballs, but the context as to why and when this happens has been set in stone. If Clark were to start shooting freeze rays out of his eyes 'cause it's convinient at one point, wouldn't you complain too?
The knife, I'm thinking, was magical. And since Superman is vulnerable to magic, it fits with the mythos. If it was supposed to be just a knife, from Krypton, someone should explain to the writers what a periodic table is, how it works and what kind of "elements" they could expect to find on other planets. You see, I don't buy the crutch that everything from Krypton is indestructible (from clothes to feathers) because the current concensus is that the Sun is the source of Superman's powers and not Krypton. And yet we see how Jor-EL is able to give Jonathan superpowers, and heal Clark through him, and teleport things from one place to another...
And I'm left to wonder, gezz Jor-El if you are so EFFING smart; how come you are dead? (Or at least don't have a body!)
I mean, why didn't you give yourself powers? Why didn't you heal the planet? Why didn't you teleport Lara somewhere safe? (Maybe one of those Space cruisers your father used to strand Kryptonians on Earth.)
Anyways, all I'm saying is that if we are talking about advance science (and if the caves are a well concealed machine or phantom zone gateway) that at some point before the series ends, they come out and say it. But it seems highly unlikely as the writers don't seem to sweat the details.
And so,
The origins of the knife will remain unexplained. So will Jonathan's healing powers. And if the premise of the series were "...with one magic word: Shazam!"; I would actually think it's within context. As it stands, advance science is becomming too big a pill for this primitive mind to swallow. Deus Ex Machina on the other hand, fits the bill just right.
I think Lex is a little tall to be Sivanna, don't you? :)--Posted by: David Hunt
Yes I do. And my comment was a jab, in jest, but nonetheless a jab at these little miracles that the writers seem to pull every now and then.
I don't think I'm the only one that's noticed also. In fact, someone pointed out that the supermanhomepage keeps track of all KO's and will start keeping track of the miracles too.
Sorry I went coccoa puff.
"It's very easy for a comment to evolve across the internet. It might go something like this:
So and so posting at the Peter David site thinks that the writing on Angel was good if flawed.
It says at the Peter David site that the writing on Angel isn't good.
Peter David at his site says that the writers on Angel stink."
Peter David says angels suck!
Peter David is an atheist!
They fired Peter David from "Fallen Angel" because they say his writing stinks!
There's a huge protest rally against "Fallen Angel" because of David's hatred of angels!
(Let's see - how much farther can we take this?) :)
Jerome Maida :on the italian mama being hot.
RIGHT ON BROTHER!Could not have said it better myself.There was a lot to like there:)
DeanO,
Absolutely! A LOT to like. MM-MM good!
As for those who don't think so, everyone's entitled to their own taste and opinion, but...
Ptui! We will discuss them no more:)
All this talk about Fred/Illyria reminds me (due to the way i have always thought about Illyria) that today's "Studio Briefing" on IMDB.com says tghat a British actress has been cast as Jadis, the White Queen/Witch in the Narnia film beginning production soon.
Apparently one or more American actresses had been trying for the part...
Thank Ghu!
TOTALLY agree with all those who have been impressed with Amy Acker the last few episodes...never thought the woman had it in her, to be honest!!
The dynamic between Wesley and Illyria is just brilliant, and Alexis Denisoff is also deserving of kudos.
I found the "Butch and Sundance" show extremely funny; the only thing that irritated me was that SMG refused to replay Buffy Sommers--seems to me, from what I've read, that the girl--she isn't a woman to me--is just plain immature. Remember the issue of ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY which covered the announcement of the end of BTVS? Appeared in February last year, I believe. Anyway, it turned out that the rest of the cast had no idea that SMG was not going to continue on the show, and only found out about it from reading the article. What does that say about SMG? (And Wheedon, for that matter--why didn't he say anything to the cast about their future being up in the air...unless
SMG didn't say anything to him, either!)
Anyway, the fact that it was some extra in a wig playing Buffy did annoy me...and I wonder how much better the episode/arc would have been if Miss High-and-Mighty had agreed (as David Boreanz did for BTVS) to help ANGEL bow out with a flourish.
Mindy
NO! I can't believe you chastised Angel for being irrevelently creative and fresh, and praise for what has become the absolutetly worst show on television, stringing along craptacular plotlines and unimaginably boring acting.
My biggestgrip with Smallville? Why don't these children smile? They are teenagers! Can't anyone ever smile or joke or play? They did on Buffy? And they saved the world, not just a hick filled small town.
Mindy,
Yes, I remember that issue of Entertainment Weekly well, both because the announcement broke my heart and because I somehow received two issues in the mail!
Anyway, since you were wondering, the EW announcement by SMG came as a surprise to him as well. She did NOT consult him. The reason for this is she felt if she had to talk to Joss/ writers/ cast members they would try to talk her out of it. Once she made it public, there was no putting that genie back in the bottle, so to speak. In my opinion, it really was a cheesy thing to do.
Three things that stick out in my mind from the issue:
1.) SMG realy didn't like the dark tone of the sixth season, which I thought was fresh and a natural evolution. Joss had said the season was supposed to be aan analogy to growing up and the uncertainty and hard choices you face when you decide to do so, and she wasnt happy with it. She liked the "Scoobies" schtick.
2.) She STILL was upset over moving to UPN
3.) She actually said, "Teachers get sabbaticals...actors don't."
I never begrudge anyone for getting what they're worth on the marketplace, be it Barry Bonds, Tom Cruise, PAD or SMG. But I absolutely HATE when they publicly whine. This is what ticked me off about David Duchovny as well.
As for SMG, well, I interviewed Joss last week, and he says right now he sees no way for there to be a Buffy movie since "she has shown no interest in reprising the character, even for a guest-spot on "Angel". Joss did his best not to sound annoyed, but I think he was.
And for the record, SMG says she would have been available for the finale. But seeing as how the show spent years in buffy's shadow, and that they had been trying to get her to guest-star for FEBRUARY sweeps and now the last few episodes, Joss felt it wouldn't be fair to the "Angel" cast to have their SERIES finale dominated by a guest-star. And rightfully so.
"1.) SMG realy didn't like the dark tone of the sixth season, which I thought was fresh and a natural evolution. Joss had said the season was supposed to be aan analogy to growing up and the uncertainty and hard choices you face when you decide to do so, and she wasnt happy with it. She liked the "Scoobies" schtick."
I read an interview with SMG that her biggest problem with season six was the violent sexual relationship with Spike. She felt very uncomfortable with those sex scenes and didn't like doing them.
Anyhoo I think SMG gets a bad rap sometimes and as a viewer who felt that, aside from a handful of episodes, seasons six and seven of Buffy were a total mess, I have to agree with her that it was time to hang up the stake and put the show out of its misery.
For those interested in the Charisma Carpenter PLAYBOY photos -- which is quite a few people here, I'd imagine -- go to http://www.digitalstar.com/DMan3/?Album=Charisma+Carpenter where the pics are posted. Yowza! Abd much as I love seeing her nekkid, the June 2003 had a very nice pictorial on the actresses from BTVS, including Charisma in a tight black bustier and Charisma, topless (facing front, damnit) in white panties and a white top hat. Insert sound of Jim drooling like Homer Simpson here...
Anyway, the fact that it was some extra in a wig playing Buffy did annoy me...and I wonder how much better the episode/arc would have been if Miss High-and-Mighty had agreed (as David Boreanz did for BTVS) to help ANGEL bow out with a flourish.--Mindy
I wonder how the fans would've reacted if Kristy Swanson had done the cameo instead of an extra.
And you know, since they were playing it for laughs, I think it would've worked just fine for me. I can see it now...
Angel: "Buffy???"
Spike: "You've... you've GROWN!!!"
Red Ricky,
Re: Kristy Swanson doing the cameo.
What an inspired idea! You should be an assistant to Joss!
Thanks!
Jerome
James Lynch,
Thanks for the web address, although I got to see Charisma in all her glory the old-fashioned way. (No, Charisma didn't visit me at my apartment. If THAT had happened, judging from the photos in the issue alone, I would still be unable to type on this keyboard or perform any other motor functions. I would be in a perpetual state of absolute bliss!"
No wonder Angel and Cordy never hooked up (except for the goodbye kiss). She definitely would have made him "perfectly happy", and we al know what happenes then!
Derek,
I get what you're saying, I really do.
1.) I like SMG a lot. Honest. I just feel the WAY she left was poor. That and her whining ("teachers get sabbaticalls...actors don't") just hit me the wrong way is all. She may never have a vehicle to showcase her talents like this again. Sure, she may become George Clooney (movies success-wise), or even Laura Linney, bur right now Eliza Dushku has a better movie resume (sorry, and before I get blasted for saying that because "Soul Survivors" was one of the worst films ever, it's true. She was part of an ensemble in a cheerleader film like "Bring It On", played a decent role in a Kevin Smith movie ("Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back", was in a vastly unapreciated comedy ("The New Guy"), and was even the star of her own horror film ("U-Turn").Sure "U-Turn" didn't blow away the box-office, but the fact she can get a movie made (something VERRRRY few actresses can do) already bodes well for her future. Oh, and she already got to star in another TV series ("Tru Calling") which again is impressive whether it gets cancelled or not.
SMG? "Cruel Intentions" was really cool, but she can't keep playing high schoolers forever. After that, she has two "Scooby Doo" films and two horroe movies (one in which she only appears in briefly) to her credit.
She may have wanted the exposure of a TV series for another year or two, because in Hollywood you ca go from hot to a "Where Are They Now?" feature very quickly, and out of sight is out of mind.
Oh, and a lot of the "mess" in Season Six was due to Joss getting "Firefly" off the ground and leaving Marti Noxon with more input and final say on scripts. Big mistake. Noxon has been quoted in interviews saying she drew upon her own experiences in bad relationships that she knoew were BAD for her to write a lot of the Buffy/Spike scenes. I agree that a lot of the violent sex scenes were unnecessary. It went against everything that had been established about Spike truly having affectionate, caring feelings for Buffy, from comforting her on the porch when she found out her mom was sick, t taking the torture from Glory because if he revealed Dawn was the Key it would destroy her.
Noxon even said she wrote the attempted rape scene at the last minute to pretty much beat viewers who were enjoying the Spike/Buffy relationship over the head with the idea that Spike was BAD for her.
Again, there were some pitfalls, but I really think a lot of viewers, like they do a lot on TV, simply didn't want the characters and their relationships to change. They wanted Buffy to kick butt and be with Angel and have Giles as her Watcher and still have Willow have a crush on Xander.
The show took chances the last couple of years, and IMO, many (especially the musical episode) worked. So, IMO, it had no "misery" to be put out of.
I tend to overlook actors whining about how tough they have it, if I didn't I'd never be able to watch tv again.
"Oh, and a lot of the "mess" in Season Six was due to Joss getting "Firefly" off the ground and leaving Marti Noxon with more input and final say on scripts. Big mistake. Noxon has been quoted in interviews saying she drew upon her own experiences in bad relationships that she knoew were BAD for her to write a lot of the Buffy/Spike scenes. I agree that a lot of the violent sex scenes were unnecessary. It went against everything that had been established about Spike truly having affectionate, caring feelings for Buffy, from comforting her on the porch when she found out her mom was sick, t taking the torture from Glory because if he revealed Dawn was the Key it would destroy her.
Noxon even said she wrote the attempted rape scene at the last minute to pretty much beat viewers who were enjoying the Spike/Buffy relationship over the head with the idea that Spike was BAD for her."
I always felt the attempted rape was unecessary just because an out to the Spike/Buffy relationship was already established. While we were shown that Spike fell in love with Buffy, for the longest time we were also shown that Buffy didn't share those feelings. At most Spike was on par with Anya and at worst Buffy was using him because she knew she could. The entire relationship was warped ( from Spike's stalking her to Buffy using him to punish herself) and it was only the fans who created the great love between the two. In my estimation Spike was no more or less important to Buffy than Riley. Which made him secondary to Angel in her heart.
I don't think the attempted rape was only about showing how bad the relationship was for Buffy, as it was also the impetus for Spike to go questing to get his soul back to prove himself to her, something that's driven his character ever since. It was a (very ugly and horrible) natural extension of Spike's character and their overall relationship at the time.
Through the whole relationship Buffy kept telling him that she didn't want him, but then kept returning to him for sex, as that was all she could feel with him. That, combined with the complete lack fo self control and conscience all vampires have, led him down the path of reasoning that, now that she's trying to pull herself away from him completely, him forcing himself on her sexually would bring her back to him. It was completely horrible, of course, which is what finally snapped him onto the path of trying to get a soul so he could connect with her for real, but it was only a reasoned conclusion to their relationship up until then.
Here are select ratings from the week of April 26 - May 2 as reported in the May 3, 2004 issue of TelevisionWeek.
WEDNESDAY
Smallville 2.8/5 2.9/5
Enterprise 2.2/4 2.2/4
Angel 2.7/4 2.6/4
THURSDAY (season finale)
Tru Calling 2.9/5 2.9/5 2.8/4 2.9/4
SUNDAY
Charmed 2.5/4 2.6/4
Enterprise was the lowest ranked program in its time slot. Smallville was second lowest ranked program.
Enterprise does however continue to be the highest ranked -scripted- series on UPN. (Which doesn't say a lot for the rest of the line up)
Tru Calling was the lowest rated series on Fox that week. It did beat Harvey's Big Time and Jamie Kennedy on the WB.
The ratings above are in: household ratings/share for ecah half hour. A rating is the percent of households watching a program. A share is the percent of households watching television that are watching that program.
Considering his reaction back in Season 3 "I'm gonna go get Dru, tie her up, and torture her till she loves me again.", Spike's attempted rape of Buffy was perfectly in line with his established personality at that point. The fact that he just wanted to rape her as opposed to wasting time "kidnapping and torturing" her showed the affect she'd had on him up to that point in Season 6.
Actually, in Spike's mindset, it wasn't even really rape, it was just a sex game he was used to playing with Dru to him...Buffy's reaction to it put him on the path to soul recovery (at the time, I thought he just wanted the demon to get the chip out so he could go evil again...)
Please do not make any assumptions about my preferences for this next statement.
Considering what we saw of the Spike/Buffy relationship, the bathroom scene resembled their usual foreplay. Please consider when Invisible Buffy began slapping Spike around and the aftermat.
Concerning the question of rape there was an actual rape commited during Season Six, not that of Warren/ex-girlfriend but of Willow/Tara. When Willow had sex with Tara when she was under the effects of the forget spell in Once More With Feeling, she took sexual advantage of a person who might have declined her advances if she had been in her normal state of mind. As I understand the law, if you sleep with an individual who you have either drugged or otherwise mentally incapacitated, that's rape.
Let me say the sixth season of BVS almost made me stop watching the show and a good friend stop watching completely.
As mentioned by several folks it was /is in Buffy to go after the "badboys".though she takes it to a totally different level.The whole season just left a bad taste in my mouth and i still avoid those episodes .I understand its a part of the characters developing but i just felt so dirty after watching them
On the subject of feeling Dirty i just saw the picks of Charisma.Oh My God its better than i dreamed of .I dont think she is "dirty " for doing the pictures my thoughts while viewing them were however:)
By the way watching Angel reruns on TNT.The crew is getting the initial tour at W&H .What ever happened to Lila ?I liked her in an evil,sexy kinda way:)
Okay, so the Angel/Spike part of this episode is all hotly contested. I didn't care for it, not because I didn't want to see the characters like that (well, I didn't but...) but because the characters didn't really react right. I mean, okay it's funny that they both left the head on the counter, but I think Mr. CEO of WRH LA would be responsible enough to just grab the bag before chasing da poossay. And there were lots of inconsistencies like that. The central story could have worked, but it felt like Spike and Angel were ineffective because the writers were too lazy to craft a better script.
I read several comments posted by the writers of TGIQ that stated how they wanted to write something that showed how love could "make shemps out of all of us".
Someone should have reminded them that dying is easy, comedy is hard.
I've noticed a number of comments posted on different boards trying to explain Buffy's seemingly out of character lack of interest in Angel, not merely the romantic but lack of interest in what was happening to him and the others during this season. There was never any reference to her or anyone from Sunnydale present for Cordelia's off screen funeral? Granted, no one ever refered to Cordelia's interment, but I believe we can draw from this omission the conclusion that she wasn't there.
I would like to put forth a new interpretation based upon the old saw that "Some are born great; others achieve greatness, and others have it thrust upon them." I propose that Buffy very definitely fell into the last catagory and now that the circumstances that contributed to her "greatness" have changed, so has she.
In the movie, Buffy was clearly a rather vapid valley girl type before the Slayer mantle fell to her. We assumed that as the series progressed that she grew as an individual, that she matured. With the resolution of the Buffy series and the awakening of the other slayers she went from being the One to being one among many. Perhaps it was the pressures of her life that made her the woman that Spike described as marvelous, and without those trials that woman has slowly disappeared.
Perhaps that image of a dancing, carefree girl, not terribly concerned with what might be happening to those lost loves half way around the world could be the true Buffy.
Pgavigan "Perhaps that image of a dancing, carefree girl, not terribly concerned with what might be happening to those lost loves half way around the world could be the true Buffy."
Nice try to explain this out of character behaviour but in my oppion is that is just poor writing. It looks to me that although Joss Whedon /Mutant enemy writers team have a great talent for telling intressting stories but they seem to lack the talent to end a series graciously. This so reminded me of the last episodes of Buffy when she was thrown out her own house and nobody even showed any intrest to find out how she was doing or what happened to her the next couple of days.