PeterDavid.net

I didn't pay attention to the credits, but according to IMDb.com, David Denman is credited as "Skip" for each of the demon's appearances on the show.

I was left with a major case of "Huh?" at the end. After being all prepared for some really hideous creature, we essentially get Akasha? Oh well....

I wish there'd been more Darla--I'd even been hoping it could've been the _real_ Darla (she has come back from the beyond before and forcing Connor to choose between a real Darla and the being-that-is-Cordy would've been interesting).

I loved Skip's comment "no one comes back from Paradise" (it really makes me wish I'd taped the show).

The thing about predestination, though, isn't too farfetched when you take this as a TV show. There've been stories in which people "learn" they're nothing more than characters in some story with absolutely no free will of their own. Whether Skip's comments have any bearing on the real world is best left to the philosophers.

I'm also glad to see that Fred apparently has some significant part to play. Of course, we have to wait till next week to find out just what that part is.

By the way, does anyone have an idea about what UPN is up to in its promotions for "Buffy"? Earlier in the week, I saw a promo which commented about the "Countdown" and only 7 episodes left. However, the episode being promoted was this week's rerun. So, are there 7 episodes left *including* reruns, or *excluding* reruns?

Are you sure he was referring to

"pre-destination" over "manipulation?" Skip didn't say that all the worlds events are being controlled and predetermined, just that all the major decisions of conseqence for these 5-10 people were being manipulated by the beast. And even then, only for the past few years. That doesn't seem all that far-fetched.

I also see it more as manipulation than pre-destination. I was surprised, though, that there was no mention of Doyle, whose death had to have been the lynchpin of the whole plan: No transfer of visions, no UltraCordy.

^The Buffy promo said

"Seven weeks left..."

Two things:

The concept of Darla, a demon, now acting as an angel, on connor's right shoulder, and Cordy, formerly an angel, now acting as a demon on his left. Talk about a great turn around! Very well done.

And I must be blind. Has Ben "The Tick" Edlund been producer all this year? Just noticed it the last couple of weeks.

Good Episode...

Travis

>>Anyone who turned in last night would certainly find a gripping and entertaining program. I'm not entirely sure they could follow it, but I doubt they'd take their eyes off it.<<

Hey, listen, as I've said before here once or twice, I didn't start watching 'Angel'....oh, I'd been aware of the show, and even following it somewhat through various channels ( excuse the unintentional pun ) , but actually watching it??....until the show moved to its current time-slot, this year!!

Needless to say: Boy!, am I glad I did!!

Hooper

While I chalked up a lot of Skip's talk about engineering past events to idle boasting, I enjoyed the idea that Cordelia's ascension was simply part of some scheme.

The idea that Cordelia deserved to become a higher being (and particularly the timing of her ascension) always struck me as incredibly contrived. It certainly highlights the differences between Angel and Buffy: on Angel, things that seemed wrong or contrived are turning out to be plot points; on Buffy, they're unfortunately just bad writing.

I also just noticed Bed Edlund's name in the credits last week. I was wondering how much he has been in control of and for how long. The character of Skip seems very much like one he would create and his dialog (at least in the past) was also very Edlund-like. Being a producer, though, I guess he doesn't really have that type of in-put. Any info would be appreciated.

William

For clarification of UPN's somewhat confusing Buffy promos go here:

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2003-04/02/11.00.tv

FYI - there are 5 new episodes of Buffy left...AICN posted the airdates as follows: Finally, UPN has confirmed via press release the dates for the final five “Buffy” installments:

BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER, which has garnered both extraordinary critical acclaim and a fiercely devoted fan base, will conclude its seventh and final season with five all-new episodes beginning Tuesday, April 15 (8:00-9:00 PM, ET/PT) on UPN. The remaining four one-hour episodes will air on April 29, May 6 and May 13 with the series' last ever original program on May 20 (all at 8:00-9:00 PM, ET/PT).

Wow! I thought casting Darla as the voice of reason was perfect. To me, that was the big surprise of the episode.

Also, the way Wes killed Skip and Skip's last line were perfect. We cannot take all of Skip's words at face value. He also said that giving birth would kill Cordelia, but we clearly saw her alive after her "baby" was born.

Hopefully Angel will be renewed for another season.

Bobby

I agree that this was more of a case of manipulation over predestination, Skip's comments notwithstanding. He also said that the birth would kill Cordy, so he probably stretched more than one thing.

This episode has probably been the most balanced episode in terms of the utilizing each cast member. I think the biggest weakness of this show this season is the crowded cast. Remember when it was just Angel, Cordy, and Doyle? This week was the first that I notice Andy Acker's name in the opening credits.

I'm glad Chris mentioned Doyle, because it seems like everyone has forgotten him.

Fred and Gunn looked their best here than they have all season. I guess Fred is on her way to becoming the group's resident wiccan while Gunn is showing signs that he has more to contribute than muscle.

My favorite scene, though, was between Angel and Wes. When Angel acknowledged that he was sorry about Lilah's death because Wes cared for her, you knew that they were really friends again and that they've put the past behind them.

Darla's appearance inspire, too. I was really shocked when Conner folded. I honestly thought he would finally see through "Cordy's" lies. I guess he'll be lost to the dark side after this.

Quote: I also see it more as manipulation than pre-destination. I was surprised, though, that there was no mention of Doyle, whose death had to have been the lynchpin of the whole plan: No transfer of visions, no UltraCordy.

I was wondering about that too, but since my wife just started watching a couple weeks ago, that just would have been one more thing I would have had to explain, and I had a LOT to explain last night.

Rob R.

I think it was idle boasting too.

personally I was really annoyed they didn't let connor in on the fact something may be up.

How did they think he was going to react unless he saw it for himself?

As for the set things up from the begining of time I don't see it.

I think the beast master decided to take advantage when cordy got the visions and started playing things from there.

My guess? Skip worked for the powers and then got fired and the beast master picked him up.

All that talk about taking a dive only to get beaten up again when angel uses a chain? No, he got his as kicked the first time too.

Ben Edlund was a producer on Firefly my guess is he moved over when the show became defunct.

As for Gina was i the only one who saw her with that bright glow being used to hide her chest and think Oh my god it's Mighty Endowed? (young justice one if you don't get the reference)

Probably just me.

I think Skip was giving half-truths. I believe the random portal that brought Lorne to Earth and Fred happening to pick up th book to go Pylea was part of some grand interference. But, Gunn's sister dying and Wes sleeping with Lyla seemed far-fetched.

I imagine Cordelia was supposed to die last year from a vision, but Skip stepped in and specifically worded things so she'd "want" to become part demon.

Overall, a great episode.

My sense is that the baby is controlling Cordelia contingent is sort of half-right. Remember, she was evil *prior* to becoming pregnant (that was part of her evil plan).

From what I could tell, the Thing latched onto her when she was a higher being. Lorne freaked out from all the evil inside of her when he read her *pre* restoring her memory. I think once she got her memory back she knew what she had to do.

Watching this episode makes me think that almost every main character on Angel has fallen from grace in one way or another:

Angel -- made bad choices both as the human Liam and after the gypsies cursed him with a soul; has a sadistic alter-ego in the form of Angelus.

Cordelia -- said and did thoughtless and often cruel things in high school; also seems to have an evil alter-ego this season.

Doyle -- turned his back on Brachian demons who needed his help.

Wesley -- stole Angel's son.

Gunn and Fred -- killed the professor.

Even the guest stars this season sometimes reflect both Angel's need for atonement and capacity for evil -- Faith and maybe even Willow, for example.

With Connor's fall this episode, the only character without sin now might be Lorne. His point-of-view and love of music makes him an outcast of his home dimension, though. Maybe Lorne also fits the "fallen" status, although by Pylean standards.

Hm.

Of course, what I'm wondering is how much of this has been planned from the beginning by the writers. If they created all of this because of Charisma's pregnancy, what was the original idea? Was everything really supposed to lead up to this?

If you want to read all about Skip, check this out: http://tv.zap2it.com/sciencefiction/otherworlds.html?30790

Finally, SLIGHT SPOILER (maybe). Anyone else see where Joss has said that if Angel is picked up for another season he wants to take it in a completely different direction? Kinda makes sense if the past 4 years have been leading up to this, but what is the new direction?

Anyone who turned in last night would certainly find a gripping and entertaining program. I'm not entirely sure they could follow it, but I doubt they'd take their eyes off it.

PAD, I've been watching "Angel" and "Buffy" since episode 1 of both series and I'm not sure I followed it....

One thing I thought was odd that Gunn's straying seemed like it should be some kind of turning point for Fred & Gunn and in last night's episode, it was completely dropped. (Yes, Gunn entered saying that he was just hanging out with Gwen, but from the context of the episode, there was no sign that he had cheated on his girlfriend with her.) I seem to remember that was the second time this season it happened. After the episode where Gunn accidentally hit Fred, I think they did the same "denial" thing. Which would be fine if there was any sign that the couple was handling their problems with denial but it just seemed like the writers dropped the story for a week.

I guess I had just gotten used to Angelus' style but after Gunn dropped the encouragement speech on Fred, I half-expected Skip to say, "By the way, one of the things we didn't manipulate was your little roll in the hay with Electra-Girl last night..." but I guess we're on the up-slope of this roller coaster.

Overall, I thought it was a strong episode. One interesting point, the fact that Skip is claiming that so many of the group's life events (i.e. the course of the series) were part of the same plot may be ME's way of tying up the loose ends of the series into one neat little package if the series ends this season.

By the way, I remember hearing that before, UPN would have been obligated to pick up "Angel" if the WB cancelled it. So since UPN is losing "Buffy" and therefore has the hole in their schedule, wouldn't "Angel" have a fall-back home if the WB cancels it?

Ben Edlund.

He has only been a producer for two weeks. He was a producer the entire run of Firefly. Once that show went down ME seemed to move him to Angel. I think he wrote one of the remaining episodes.

I was left with a major case of "Huh?" at the end. After being all prepared for some really hideous creature, we essentially get Akasha? Oh well....

That didn't bother me, actually. Pulling unexpected switches that somehow make sense after the fact is what the series does when it's doing it right (the classic depiction of Christ is a white male; naturally the anti-Christ would be a black female. And please, let's not get into a lengthy "What was the actual ethnic look of Jesus" argument, okay?)

I guess "predestination" wasn't the word I was looking for. "Manipulation" is more what I meant. The intent I was trying to convey was the notion that everyone in the show has been played like a chess piece since the beginning as part of a great master scheme, and saying I'm not entirely sure I'm wild about that idea.

PAD

>>Anyone else see where Joss has said that if Angel is picked up for another season he wants to take it in a completely different direction?<<

Yes. And I also saw where Joss promised James Marsters that Spike would be a part of 'Angel', if and when it's renewed next year!!

Hooper

This is complete speculation but here's what I think happened with Doyle.

I'm basing this on what we've seen happen from the outside looking in. The show starts with this new character who is dropped after what, five, six episodes? At the time, ME claimed it was just an example of the kinds of unexpected twists you could expect from the series but I doubt that was the case. It doesn't seem like there was enough time to see how audiences liked the character so I don't think that was it. I think that even then Quinn had a drug problem and they simply had to drop him.

The character isn't brought back and in the ME universe, everyone comes back at one point or another (Watching the FX reruns it's amazing how often we saw Jonathon or Harmony before they got actual storylines.) so I'm guessing it was a serious problem. I don't think he was acting in other projects either.

Unfortunately, these "True Hollywood Stories" moments have only two next lines: "After hitting the bottom, the only place to go was up" or "He was in the fight of his life. Tragically, it was a fight he would lose."

After Quinn died of a drug overdose, I suspect people from the show had some guilty feelings. Having had some experience with addiction, I know you can't help anyone who isn't ready to be helped but it doesn't make you feel any less guilty when you lose them.

As a result, my theory is that the character is kinda "taboo" on the series.

(But on a less serious subject, if Quinn had recovered from his addiction, wouldn't that have been a kick-ass ending if the Big Bad had been Doyle?)

When UPN picked up Buffy, the deal was that if the WB cancelled Angel within two years, they had to pick it up. It's been two years, UPN is not obligated to pick up Angel now and since Buffy has gone down in the ratings since moving to UPN I doubt they would want to. I do think the WB will pick it up again, once they get the contracts signed - it's been doing okay on Wednesdays against West Wing, The Bachelor, etc.

BTW, Skip said that the birth would absorb Cordy's spirit...Angel asked if that would kill her and he said no, but she'd be a vegetable.

First: "ME"?

Second: I loved the ep. Although I've been so pumped about the show for the last few weeks that I was reading all I could and knew that Gina (from Firefly) was going to be "the Big Bad". I since realized that I need to not read the spoilerish stuff and just watch.

Although they haven't renewed yet TV Guide said Angel it is WB's 2nd best rated show (after Smallville). So it's beyond me (and TV Guide) why it hasn't been renewed.

Tobin: "ME" stands for "Mutant Enemy," the production company behind Buffy, Angel and Firefly.

A probable reason for Angel not yet aving been removed is contract negotiations between WB and ME. The network offers so much money per episode, then ME can ask for more and they can negotiate. Until there's an agreement they won't announce that a show has been renewed.

WB may be trying to lowball ME, figuring they can get similar ratings with a reality show that would cost them a lot less money, or perhaps ME wants to make significant changes in the direction of the show that WB doesn't agree with. Perhaps the WB execs want changes in the show that ME in uncomfortable with.

If the two sides can't reach an agreement then ME can shop the show to other networks, though only UPN would seem a likely candidate.

One thing...casting issues aside, why didn't the Powers That Be send Holtz? Connor would almost certainly listen to him...

One thing...casting issues aside, why didn't the Powers That Be send Holtz? Connor would almost certainly listen to him...

Yeah, I thought of that too. Sometimes, though, the answers to questions like these are not found in the internal logic of the show but in the fact that it is a television show. So one explanation is that the actor who plays Holtz turned it down or wasn't available. Another is that in dramatic terms, Darla and Cordelia can create an internal struggle for Connor while if it had been Holtz, there would have been none.

Pete: Because Holtz lacks the core of goodness that Darla brought to the party? Seriously, Darla went through some remorse between her resurrection and her re-siring, while Holtz was a revenge-obsessed fanatic.

Stephen: I've been saying that it wasn't the fetus controlling Cordelia, but rather that what was in her would move into the child when it was born. So I called that one (and in the best tradition of prognosticators, one right prediction lets me gloss over any number of incorrect ones for a while...)

Jennifer: I'm not surprised about the number of characters who've done bad things, because one of the show's core themes is atonement; it's central to Angel's character.

Gina Torres as Botticelli's Venus on the half-shell is what I got out of the ending. Perfect.

ANGEL gets middling ratings for the WB. If the TV GUIDE article said it's the net's second highest rated show after SMALLVILLE, it's incorrect, as it's regularly trounced by GILMORE GIRLS, SEVENTH HEAVEN, EVERWOOD, and probably a couple of others. Perhaps they meant second highest rated sci-fi show?

My theory on the "chess game" point is that either the Big Bad has pulled off some truly massive machinations, or Skip was playing some truly impressive mind games. I'm somewhat leaning toward it being the latter.

Has anyone noticed that Angel is a show where the unpredictable happens and Buffy is on a one lane road speeding to a semi-known heading. Remember when Buffy usedto have those turns every year?

Peter mentioned that Christ = white male & anti-christ = black female, but did you notice that good + blond darla in a long white skirt and white sweater while Evil = Raven haired Cordy in revealing black dress?

It seems that Gina had some power of persuation in the preview so I guess that Cordy did too when she convinced connor to kill that poor girl.

Spoiler...

Cordy will be in a coma for some time. I guess that will be her maternity leave from the show.

Peter mentioned that Christ = white male & anti-christ = black female, but did you notice that good + blond darla in a long white skirt and white sweater while Evil = Raven haired Cordy in revealing black dress?

And back when Willow guested, she was using her power for good and her eyes turned black while Cordy used her power for evil and her eyes turned white...

Re the new direction:

I read somewhere the Joss wanted to make Angel Investigations a more "corperate" enterprise, which leads me to believe that Angel and company may reopen Wolfram and Hart, but for the side of good this time.

Connor fans might want to skip my comments as I am about to blast his character:

spoiler

(I tried the spoiler html code but I wasn't sure if it would be viewable at all. The preview just made it look invisible.)

Conner's gotta go. He has been a whiney little bastard all season and last night's episode just proved just how weak he is.(mentally). I mean, come on -- he has been fighting on the side of good ever since he came back into Angel's dimension. He has fought side by side with the gang for at least a year and a half and should realize that they wouldn't turn on one of their own unless there was a REAL, REAL good reason. So he jumps in, knock the hell out of the only people he knows, and rescue's evil Cordy without any kind of question? I know he doesn't like his dad, but -- give me a break. At this point I was like - alright, he is just a little pansy, he will figure it out. Then when he Cordy asked him to kidnap a virgin (they didn't show her ask for suprise purposes, but I saw that coming a mile away), so they could kill her for a ritual to bring her baby quicker - um, hello? Why would any good person in their right mind want to kidnap someone, let alone a virgin? And to top it off, when the apparation of Darla appeared to try and convince him not to sacrifice the girl, he throws a temper tantrum, "Your not my mother" and storms off to kill the girl - against everything he has ever fought for - poof.

I did enjoy the episode. I know I did, because for me to get this riled up means it was really good. I know love can be blind but he is just pathetic - I believe it is time for him to go back to the dimension that he grew up in and come back after he goes through puberty of the mind. Evertime I see his pouty face I start humming the tune..."Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, I think I'll eat a worm..."

Anyway, as people of become fond of saying...that is my $0.02.

Xyon

Like PAD, I also wondered if it was a different actor playing Skip. Sometimes he sounded like the same actor and other times he didn't. It crossed my mind that perhaps he didn't have a chance to loop his dialogue for this episode and that the prosthetics produced a slightly detectable lisp during many of his lines.

Could someone give me details on just what happened 1) from where Fred and Gunn are talking about predestination and Gunn mentions it getting down to the big question to the next couple of scenes, and right at the end from where Angel and Connor are fighting until Gina Torres flares in and Angel bows down to her? Due to rain, my sat dish was only showing the occasional frame with no dialogue during those scenes.

Thanks.

Something I don't think has been acknowledged yet; just who are the "powers that be"? Seems to me that either they're actually the Big Bad, or they're incredibly easy to dupe, or they have a *serious* hands-off policy going on. For there to have been as much manipulation as Skip said, particularly vis a vis Cordy and Doyle, it'd seem they'd have to be the ones really behind it all.

(I tried the spoiler html code but I wasn't sure if it would be viewable at all. The preview just made it look invisible.)

Xyon, that's what's supposed to happen. You tell someone there's spoiler text coming, so that they know they have to highlight the blank space -- kind of like this -- to see what's said.

Having said that, I don't think you need to worry; you didn't talk about anything that hasn't already happened.

Joss has said on several occasions that Doyle was meant to be a temp character who could be killed for shock value. The character Jesse in the Buffy pilot was originally going to be in the opening credits of that episode but WB wouldn't pay for it.

Also, if you watch the episode where Tara is shot, you'll see that her name is back in the opening credits.

Glenn Quinn wasn't fired for his drug use (he probably wasn't asked to return because of it though).

**Joss has said on several occasions that Doyle was meant to be a temp character who could be killed for shock value. The character Jesse in the Buffy pilot was originally going to be in the opening credits of that episode but WB wouldn't pay for it.

Also, if you watch the episode where Tara is shot, you'll see that her name is back in the opening credits.

Glenn Quinn wasn't fired for his drug use (he probably wasn't asked to return because of it though).**

I don't want to argue the point. I started by saying that I was just doing what my old hero Sherlock used to do, observing and making logical deductions from what I saw and know of human behavior.

But unless you have some special insider knowledge, I'm not very convinced.

Joss Whedon would have every reason in the world to say that Quinn was written out of the show for other reasons (from legal reasons to simple human kindness) and no reason to say it was someone's drug addiction.

I'm familiar with what was done with the Tara character but I think this was different. I remember all the hype leading up to the show and it involved a lot of publicity photos, interviews, etc. In other words, the studios invested a lot into selling this actor to the public. You may also note that Amber Benson is still a part of Buffy fandom while Quinn just seemed to vanish. I never bought that he was willingly written out of the show in a way that had been planned from the beginning.

Something else to keep note. When the 'child' was born a blob with a bunch of arms (tenticles?) was shown hovering over Cordy.

Just because the 'child' LOOKS hot doesn't mean that's it's true face.

Something else to keep note. When the 'child' was born a blob with a bunch of arms (tenticles?) was shown hovering over Cordy.

-- So the "child" was a sumo wrestler eating sushi?

I liked this episode - and it certaintly adds a lot more weight to a theory I've had going around my head about this series of Angel and Buffy:

The PTB have always been portrayed as a benevolent entity - and I believe they are, thing is, with the First on the way, they can't afford to mess around any more and are having to take drastic action. They brought forth The Beast, who then slaughtered everyone at Wolfram and Heart, thus destroying one of The First's potential allies. The Rain of Fire seems almost biblical in a sense, a cleansing of a sin-filled city, and once this was all accomplished, they brought in Angelus to get rid of The Beast (admittedly I can't explain the blocking out the sun...).

All the time they are grooming Cordy to give birth to a vessel on earth, perhaps with the power to damage the First. Then Darla appears, trying to convince Conner to stop the birth, in the same way the First crops up in Buffy. And finally when Cordy gives birth, a great white light, and I could swear the look she gave at the end was simmilar to one that the first slayer gave Buffy back in Restless, but that might just be me.

Also explains a few other things - Giles acting all odd, could be under the influence of this entity, the MOs match - he's constantly telling Buffy she has to make the tough decisions and sacrifices to win the fight, and do whatever is necessary.

I'm not sweating the idea that everyone and everything has been manuvered into place for this to happen -- it goes against the existentialist nature of the show (in the second season, Angel said something like "If nothing we do matters, then the only that matters i what we do." The show has been following that ever since).

Besides, if I was evil, I'd be sure to tell everyone that they don't have free will, and everything they've done has been to my benefit. That'd screw 'em up something fierce.

One other thing: Did it seem to anyone else that Angel has retained a bit more of his Angelus personna? Not that he's evil, but he has seemed to be acting smarter, tougher, more anti-hero-ish in the last two episodes than he has in the past.

Something that has been bugging me for a while - back in the second season of Angel, didn't one of the villains go up to "The Powers That Be" domicile and kill them? It was the same villain who gave Cordelia the power (or curse) of feeling all the pain in L.A. So there's more of the P.T.B., or they were replaced or ? Anyone know what I'm babbling about?

I think Conner is getting whiplash from being told to listen to someone and that everyone else talking to him is a liar.

Like some others, I am getting tired of him being the show's puppy dog.

Rob wrote:

...didn't one of the villains go up to "The Powers That Be" domicile and kill them?

I think you're thinking of the Oracles, below the Post Office? They were one of Angel's direct links to the Powers, but they got themselves nice and sliced up. As for the Powers themselves, we have never met them, to my knowledge.

So, about this episode... when Skip mentioned Pylea, did anyone else start thinking about those strange books they found with the Wolf, Ram, and Hart on the covers? That's been niggling in the back of my mind for ages. I wonder if they'll ever elaborate on that or if it's just forgotten.

I thought Skip was a fantastic character from his very first line last season. It's a shame what they did to the character this episode. I've decided, although it's unlikely that this is the case, that the evil Skip was just regular Skip also under the control of the Big Bad. This way I'll still be able to fully enjoy his previous appearances when I watch them.

I also hope that Connor was being similarly controlled, in my eyes that's the only thing that could forgive his being so terminally stupid (even more so than usual, I mean).

Maybe the reason Cordy survived the birth is because it was hastened by the ritual, and the girl's blood supplied enough Lifeforce that Cordy's didn't have to be sucked dry. Cordy saying that what they were doing was to speed up the birth could be a lie, but 2 episodes ago when Willow showed up and they were having their battle, Cordy clearly wished that it were just a few weeks later, because then she wouldn't have any problems; and one thing I know for sure is that no more than 2 maybe 3 days passed since that moment.

Just my 5 cents (you know, Inflation).

Raphy

PS Completely unrelated, but am I the only one here to think that Alexis Denisof would make a great James Bond?

PS Completely unrelated, but am I the only one here to think that Alexis Denisof would make a great James Bond?

I was thinking more an adult superman or batman.

What if this was the First's way of getting a physical body? we know it loves to be the seducer and the secene at the end suggest it has the abiltiy to seduce ampified

Re: Connor. While I agree he's terminally stupid in terms of collaborating in killing the girl, there's a really good explanation for the rest of his stupidity.

He's 17 or so. He's male. And Cordy is the *only* female that we know of in his life (there was the between seasons time, but otherwise we've seen pretty much all of his time in this dimension. Come to think of it, how much time has actually gone by in the episodes this season? Maybe a few weeks?).

The boy's being led around by his hormones. Big time. Remember, until getting back into this dimension, he'd never even seen a woman (at least a human one. Or one that wasn't trying to kill him). And he's got zero defenses built up against a demon lover (in about five senses of the term, including but not limited to the literal).

Also on Connor, the kid's got serious abandonment issues. It showed very well on his initial reaction to Darla, commenting that she left him because she hated him. Then Holtz left him as well.. more than left Connor, left Connor just to set Connor on a vengeance kick. Though come to think of it, if they did want to at least point to some of the manipulation the big bad's been doing, they could probably finagle something with Holtz's two-facedness between Angel and Connor, as writing that note to Connor always seemed to weaken Holtz's position just a touch.

Digression aside, at least in choosing between people rather than positions, he had to choose between someone who did leave him and the woman who was offering to love him. I think Connor does on some level know very well that something was severely wrong with Cordy, but it's not about good/evil to him, in the end. It's about who he thinks will hold him and not let him go.

Which means that there ain't no way in Pylea that he will break the spell that our big bad's apparently able to put over anyone who sees her. :)

PS Completely unrelated, but am I the only one here to think that Alexis Denisof would make a great James Bond?

I've thought that as well, although I think that would make him the first American James Bond. The accent's put on.

PAD

**Something else to keep note. When the 'child' was born a blob with a bunch of arms (tenticles?) was shown hovering over Cordy.

-- So the "child" was a sumo wrestler eating sushi? **

Reminded me of some H.P. Lovecraft old gods... you know 'Jesus Saves, Allah Protects and Cthulu thinks you'd make a great sandwich' type of being...

Travis

You all have brought out some interesting points about Connor that had made me think a little differently about his character...especially about the abandonment issues -- that seems right on. My comments probably made me sound like a cold hearted bastard...It didn't even occur to me that idea of someone wanting him after feeling rejected and out of place could be so overwhelming to him. Makes sense.

Xyon

I agree it was manipulation more than predestination. Not all of the Big Bad's plans went off without a hitch, She was constantly foiled in the past few episodes and who's to say what prior manipulations failed and succeeded. I for one enjoyed the episode and even though Conner gets on my nerves too, I felt sorry for him in that he damned himself. Remember, this kid has been manipulated since his birth by Holtz and Cordy, his parents were notorious vampires and he was raised in a hell dimension for most of his life! So lets cut him a little slack!

My vote's for the "retroactive continuity" camp- C. Carpenter got pregnant, then the WB starts playing around with ME regarding ANGEL's status on TV. As others have pointed out, "we're gonna take this show in a new direction!" pretty much indicates a "okay what can we do with what we've got?" mentality. With enough continuity, you're capable of pulling bits together to form a coherent "master plan." We see this in comic books all the time, hence the term "ret-con"- retroactive continuity.

eddie

It's true that Alexis Denisof would be a great James Bond... But you are overlooking the biggest news-- that almost every creative person connected to the Fantastic Four film want Alexis to play REED RICHARDS. The studio wants a "name" actor-- but the creative principals are still pushing hard. I believe Alexis will have a longer and deserved (what a NICE man!) FILM career shortly. A great James Bond-- Yes. A PERFECT Mr. Fantastic-- even more so!

I'm a little surprised people are doing so much fawning over "Angel," particularly in comparison with "Buffy," but I guess there's no accounting for taste, or likes.

I don't expect we'll ever see the day that someone on "Buffy" will claim that everything in the program's history has been manipulated. ("That's right. We sent the guy with the antlers to have an affair with Drusilla, thus guaranteeing Spike's return to Sunnydale, so that three years later he could...")

Count me with eddie and the others who take Skip's claim as just a desperate attempt by the writers to make us believe they know what they're doing. I'm not convinced.

We were warned of Dawn's existence at least half a season before she arrived. (Faith's coma, "Little sister's coming.") Does anyone really think that Skip was supposed to have been evil all this time?

And what was the idea behind Wesley's duck-and-roll before taking one final shot with his gun? Was that supposed to have improved his aim?

I loved Skip's comment "no one comes back from Paradise"

this to me lends credence to another comment about not taking everything skip says verbatim.

Despite the two different networks I still see it as one buffyverse.

Buffy came back from a paradise or one of the heaven planes

I would SO love to see a couple of episodes where buffy and cordy and angel and spike all get together.

sort of sit around a table in a bar and talk over how things used to be and what's happened in the last few years.

that would be so funny all things considered.

and I saw the Alexis Denisof thing about Reed Richards and think that with a little premature greying of the temples he'd make a perfect Reed.

He already seems to play Wesley (since coming to Angel anyway) as slightly off "genius". (to me anyway)

as for Skip being evil.

I believe at least one thing he said...He's a merc.

either that or he was saying all those things to get a reaction.

Sometimes a "pep" speech just won't do it enough.

sometimes you have to tell people what will piss them off in order for them to pick themselves up and go "onward".

Also, another thing that has occured to me and would lend creence to all this "powers that be" who don't choose to share everything or why sometimes the powers refuse to help in ways that would help their "champions".

What if Angel's "Powers That Be" are not good OR evil?

What if they are a force for neutrality?

they are trying to balance things equally, whether it be an act of evil one day and an act of goodness the next?

like Skip, whose orders are to preserve the neutrality and to give Angel too much of an edge on the side of good he responds with acts that could be deemed evil or whatnot?

where in the past he's had to deal out acts that may have been seen as "good".

Makes as much sense to me as any other theory.

AS for Darla being on the side of good, the selfless act of staking herself resulting in connor's birth might have been enough to redeem her soul.

Also, there seemed to be some "need" on darla's part that Connor make a choice, not be "told" what was right or wrong.

whereas with holtz, connor would more than likely have listened more to him but holtz would probably have or had to tell connor what to do and that didn't seem like the purpose of darla's visit.

I believe Skip actually said "No one comes back from Paradise. Except for one case." Clearly implying Buffy.

Regarding the presdination question, the evil side appears stronger (either to Skip or to AI) by claiming to have planned everything; I don't believe it either.

I'm still hoping we get to see the senior partners from W&H

Jumping in kind of late, but . . .

Ok, first off, I've only been regularly watching Angel since the episode where he's rescued from underwater by Wesley.

Also, I'm almost done with the second season of Buffy on DVD.

That's just so you know that I'm not aware of every historic detail in the shows (although my wife does her best to fill me in without spoiling upcoming DVD views).

Last Angel episode? Under average, though not as mediocre as the Gunn episode. My main problem was with the scenes between Cordelia and Connor, and since those made up at least half the episode, that was a big deal.

As other people have mentioned, Cordelia's manipulation is anything but subtle. The actress is to blame in part, surely, but there's also the terrible dialogue they have her spouting. And there's lots of it. So you have me getting frustrated over the fact that (it'd seem) anybody with half a brain could notice she's insincere. And yet Connor is fooled time and again.

Not only that, but those scenes, and the scenes with Darla were LONG and really boring, with the dialogue repeating itself over and over. It just felt like they were killing time.

Annoying.

And finally . . . I'm sorry, but the "creature" at the end was kind of a dissappointment. I'm trying to be objective and not judge the next episode from the preview we got, but all that stuff about everybody kneeling and falling under her spell looks really cheesy. Oh, and Fred's going to save us? I guess I started on the show after she'd stopped being an interesting character.

I don't know, it just didn't look too promising. In fact, it crippled all the anticipation all the other episodes had built up for the season finale.

But it'd seem, in this case, that was just me.

Greetings!

Ovnio

Skip's line was..."No one comes back from Paradise. Except a slayer once".