Doug Atkinson said exactly what I was thinking.
See, I was thinking to myself, Hunh. Okay. Here's all these people crabbing (notice I didn't say "bitching") about a marketing hook (which, as Kathleen noted, she actually came up with. All I did was suggest it to DC) but that's all that's happening. Crabbing. So what else could be offered? "Broad Strokes?" "Lady Killers?" And then I thought, Hey. Wait. So many folks here seem to know so much better what will work and what won't.
All right: A marketing hook. Five words or less, preferably, to sell the concept of three titles emphasizing female empowerment, at least one of which has a noir-ish tone to it, and all of which have a more risque slant to them in terms of story matter than the average DC book (although not *quite* as risque as Vertigo.) Oh, and it can't be offensive to any woman anywhere.
Sing out, Louise.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at April 4, 2003 03:11 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingNot Just For Men (But They're welcome to watch)!
It's suggestive, therefore bringing in the salacious male readers, but also suggestive that something other than the usual is going on, as well as stating that these books are meant to appeal to women.
Part of me wants to say 'Ladies In Waiting My Ass' but that's hardly classy.
'These Aren't (Ain't?) Ladies In Waiting' -- nah.
But that's where my brain's pointing right now.
"Not Just for Men"
Rarely is it a good idea to have marketing hooks that feature negative words such as "not," "isn't," etc. The Oldsmobile ads notwithstanding, it's generally preferable to state what something IS rather than what it ISN'T.
PAD
"Ladies Choice"
Sounds like a Harlequin romance line. Good angle to take if we want to ensure no male readers.
PAD
"The Good, the Bad and the Ugly"
Not sure how it puts across female empowerment, "ugly" serves to objectify women, and the DC lawyers would be concerned about getting flack from MGM/UA.
PAD
How about:
"Three Titles That Aren't Really Connected In Any Way, Other Than The Fact That They All Have Female Leads, And We Want Your Money"
I think Marvel already used that one a few years ago for a Punisher - Nomad - Something else I don't remember launch.
I don't know if this will make sense to anyone other than me but:
"Y the Last Man? Because of Women Like This."
Corey
Hmm. This'd be easier if I knew something more about the other two books. But it sounds like you want to shoot for the Buffy/Alias/Dark Angel market, so if the other two can be mapped namewise to either Buffy or Alias, you could play off that.
Or how about modifying the Dangerous Curves bit to something like: Comics Noir: Dangerous Curves With An Edge.
Or maybe Wobegon Comics: Where The Women Are Strong. :-)
"Unfair Ladies"
"Dark Angels"
"The Ladies Auxiliary"
"Leading Ladies"
"Ladies First" or "First Ladies"
"The Good" refers to good women or heroines, with an apropriate piece of art work underneath it as thes marketing campaigns ussually include art work.
"The Bad" refers to bad women or your basic villian, again with appropriate art.
"The Ugly" refers not to looks, but to acts, or the ugly or dark side of humanity, with a noir piece of art work to go with it.
Showing women in all three stages shows that they are complete human beings and there is your empowerment angle.
And now for something completely different...!
Nahh...
Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman..!
Nahhhhhh....
How about...
3 women
Each with a goal
Each with a secret
Each with a mystery
Each unlike any woman you've ever known
I know, more than the requested 5 words, but not knowing the other 2 projects it wasn't the easiest thing to come up with..!
Well, here are a few pittiful efforts. I'll just type the ideas and let them stand or fall, 'cause if you have to explain 'em, they didn't work.
Soft Warriors
Signs of the Times
Curved Steel
Dangerous Diamonds
Dangah, dangah, dangah (Okay, this one is a Steve Irwin reference, but it wasn't to be taken seriously.)
Now, I can't get his voice outta my head. I'll be back when I've exorcised the Crocodile Hunter.
Chicks With Balls.
I'm sure this won't offend anyone.
I mean, who will be offended by the notion of women who play football, baseball and basketball?
No one.
How about
Lady Like
or like your heading
Acting like Ladies
Dangerous curves sounds right. My sister liked it.
She came up with this (having not seen or read anything about these books):
"Mysterious
Sensual
Dangerous
Catch them."
Well, here are a few pittiful efforts. I'll just type the ideas and let them stand or fall, 'cause if you have to explain 'em, they didn't work.
Soft Warriors
Signs of the Times
Curved Steel
Dangerous Diamonds
Dangah, dangah, dangah (Okay, this one is a Steve Irwin reference, but it wasn't to be taken seriously.)
Now, I can't get his voice outta my head. I'll be back when I've exorcised the Crocodile Hunter.
I had similar questions/concerns about Crossgen's Meridian. If this was a book that was marketed for women, just what was it about the book that made it "female"? All I really noticed was that the women were more realistically proportioned. Also, the main character's powers were typically female in that they "created," while the evil guy's powers were typically male in that they "destroyed." Meridian's Sephie was obviously set up to be a role model for young ladies, and I really began to question just what made a female role model tick. It's really interesting, for instance, that Sephie's evil opposite is an aggressive, greedy, destructive *man*. How does that define *her* as a character and as a female hero? Shouldn't the ideal female hero *not* be defined by men? Shouldn't there be more to her than that?
So there's all sorts of issues to take into account when you're writing a story for (and featuring) women. But when you're *marketing* a story for women... well, that's different. You might as well say, "Three great titles featuring women!" or something. None of that "Girl Power!" or "Dangerous Curves!" stuff. That's how you market for *men*. Maybe you can flip around--attract the women by alienating the men. It's a risk, and it all depends on just how much you comic book people want women to read the comics. Is it really for women, or is it just something that is "woman-friendly"?
Most of the women comic book fans I know are partial to the anime/manga stuff. If I had to guess, I'd say that women who are inclined to like comic book storytelling are *not* inclined to like superheroes. Hence, the Japanese stuff. Women seem more inclined to read boy's manga than they do American superhero comics, and I believe that's because they offer something besides superheroes. So perhaps you should underplay the superhero element when marketing these books.
Otherwise, I'd say come up with a slogan that has more to do with the themes of each book, rather than the mere superficiality of all of them featuring women. Check out some of the ads featuring male characters. Do they always point out the fact that the characters are male? (Other than the "man" part of most superhero names. BatMAN, Spider-MAN...) Draw attention to what makes the books tick, what makes the stories worth reading. Because if all you're telling me is that the stories feature women that kick butt, I've got Buffy on DVD to satisfy that little craving.
Lovely Pretty Girls? What woman could object to that?
Barry: "Ladies Choice"
Peter David: Sounds like a Harlequin romance line.
Luigi Novi: Sounds like a feminine deodorant or protection product.
One thing to add to the above -
Although "heroine" would be more accurate (possibly . . . I'm not sure about the content of the books involved), "hero" works with the beat better and could be used in a unisex way, I would think.
Just throwing that out there.
Here's a few:
Femme Tales
Edge Of The Women's World
Dangerous Mujeres
Femme Extreme
I actually have no problem with "Dangerous Curves", it puts me more to mind of the Femmes Fatales of the Forties and Fifties than anything else, and those women were usually just as strong as the men (mentally at least, and sometimes physically as well). Besides, "Dangerous Curves" was my friend's costume this past Halloween and she had a blast with it.
But since PAD asked for suggestions:
"Your mind, your choice"
It ties in to a strong symbol of female empowerment, while also leaving the door open for a campaign encouraging readers (male and female alike) to look for quality (both of story and art) when picking their comics. Plus, we know that at least in "Fallen Angel" the main character will often make momentous choices.
Raphy
[b]Meridian's Sephie was obviously set up to be a role model for young ladies, and I really began to question just what made a female role model tick. It's really interesting, for instance, that Sephie's evil opposite is an aggressive, greedy, destructive *man*. How does that define *her* as a character and as a female hero? Shouldn't the ideal female hero *not* be defined by men? Shouldn't there be more to her than that?[/b]
I disagree that Sephie is defined by men. Yes, the villain is aggressive, greedy and destructive and the hero is not -- that's often a distinction drawn between hero and villain, regardless of gender. I think the reason Ilahn is a man is because if the character was a woman, it would be perceived as being too much like a fairy tale. I don't really see Ilahn's being a man as being a major part of Sephie's story, though. It's a coming of age story combined with "great power brings great responsibility." The great power in this case really being her leadership role rather than her superpowers.
As for Peter's challenge, I think we all know that it's tough to come up with a slogan that won't offend anyone, but that doesn't negate our concerns. We all want the book to succeed, nobody's throwing stones just to be critical -- well, most people aren't at least.
"More Than Just Boobs..."
"My Eyes Are Up Here, Pig!"
"Ladies of the Night"
More seriously...
"Ladies Choice"
"Comics - Not Just For Men"
"Not The Fairer Sex Anymore"
How about “heavenly bodies-sinful action”? That may be a bit too risqué…
Here’s one, "Feme- Fatalities” Too dark maybe?
“Kiss your assumptions goodbye!” Too confrontational???
Well this is fun…I’ll have to think on this some more…
Pat
There are three woman right.
This would work for the noir feel book but I am not sure about the other two.
"Manage-a-tois"
It gives the suggestive idea of a threesome without actually saying anything too sexual. To me it seems like this would be the new level of rist these books are taking.
Is this right?
"female empowerment". Hm, this would fit to all kinds of female heroes, super or otherwise.
It is very difficult to come up with a catch phrase when I know hardly anything about "Fallen Angel" and nothing about the other two new series. From what I know, "Dangerous Curves" might even be accurate if it is indeed about the nowadays usual super slim, super strong (or with other super physical abilities), sexy heroine male readers want to meet in comics.
What interests me is, has this woman a partner, a love interest? What I enjoy is to find a strong female AND male character working together, complementing each other. This attracted me to NF, for example.
A female hero with a difference would be to me someone who is also allowed to *be* female. Are they? I know that you, PAD, can write female characters very well but I don`t know if the same applies to the other two series.
I wish I could think of a different catch phrase but that shouldn`t mean that because I can`t do better I shouldn`t say anything. I think we, the audience, the customers, should be able to say what we think without being told, because we are not also professional writers, painters, whatever, we are not qualified to judge what we bought - or how we feel about certain advertising.
I know this is off topic, but I wonder how many people heard what Stan Lee's doing:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=797&u=/eo/20030402/en_tv_eo/11554&ncid=762
"Girls' Club"
"For Those Who'll Miss Buffy"
"Velvet Gloves covering Iron Fists"
Oh for crying out loud. Kathleen came up with a good, if slightly overused by the media, name. It doesn't offend me as the only male shiksa in history :) I don't think it'll offend anybody, except probably my cousin, who is a woman, but different strokes for different folks. But I'm tired of being PC all the time. If people get offended, then they get offended, then move on. at least that's what I'd like to hope. Guess I'm naive.
By the by, I don't think the *real* Bendis is homophobic. I wonder how he'd feel if someone was using his name.
Personally, I like dangerous curves, and not cause I wanna objectify woman, I think it pretty much sums up what the linking thread between the three titles will be. (And Mr. David, I laughed out loud at the B5 episode with Delenn's bad hair as did the two ladies I was watching it in my dorm room). We're just being too darn scared of offending people so instead we insult intellegences by saying that people can't get a joke anymore. Anyway, that's a soapbox for another time. Here's my idea for a pitch thread:
"Sugar, Spice and not so Nice."
six words, but it's what I got.
I've got one:
"Female Persuasion."
Sounds enticingly sexual to men, yet inclusive to women and almost empowering.
Plus, it pretty much sums up the point of the launch in the first place...to persuade females to join the ranks of comics fanboys everywhere! :)
Um. How about:
* MORE THAN A WOMAN
* ONCE, THERE WERE THREE LITTLE GIRLS...
* AND YOU THOUGHT DC STOOD FOR "DESTINY'S CHILD..."
* FACE IT, TIGER, YOU JUST HIT THE JACKPOT! (heh)
* NOT YOUR FATHER'S SUPERGIRLS!
* WHAT ABOUT THE GIRLS?
* Distaff Comics?
* PERFECT "30"
?
Matt
//\Oo/\\
Not to be a prick (well maybe a bit). Peter has a good point looking at all the tag lines you people have come up with, they are really bad.
I can't believe his line was objected to so much when nobody has a better suggestion.
"Women: Not Just For Breakfast Anymore"
6 words. DAMN!!
"Babes who CAN'T be STOPPED!"
Man, I stink at this.
(Is that the real Bendis, or a nitwit fan doing a lame impersonation?)
Peter: While it's true that it's a rule that one avoids advertising a product by describing what it isn't, using the word "not" can be quite effective.
"Not Just For Men" works as a double negative and creates an intriquing challenge. "Not for men," would of course be self defeating, but the phrasing "Not Just..." tends towards the inclusive, but without the undesirable effect of disincluding anyone. I honestly think this might work for the books and I'd be glad to cede it to you free of charge.
Not to be a prick (well maybe a bit). Peter has a good point looking at all the tag lines you people have come up with, they are really bad.
What, nobody likes "Girls' Club?" I'm offended. :)
I can't believe his line was objected to so much when nobody has a better suggestion.
I didn't object to "Dangerous Curves." This whole PC vs. Non-PC stuff started when Elayne Riggs voiced her opinion, and then we had people jumping on the band wagon, and a few people who defended Peter's line of thinking.
Me? I think you can't get to PC, because it does end up offending someone. Think back to that Murphy Brown where the FYI staff (and Scott Bakula as that nice correspondent) were at a lecture about how to be PC and then the Audience started bickering with the staff and themselves.
I do believe that there seems to be an inclination in society for beautiful women to be gravitated towards. But since the job of DC is to make money for comics and try to reach new markets, should we condemn them for appealing to a certain sense of superficialness that society has?
Is that the real Bendis, or a nitwit fan doing a lame impersonation?
The real Bendis couldn't write so poorly if he tried.
How about "Ladies Luck" ?
Michael Cravens wrote: " 'Female Persuasion.' "
I like that one the best out of the alternatives (although I liked "Dangerous Curves," too--if forced to take issue, I'd go with "dangerous;" should heroes/heroines be "dangerous"?). It's even a pun!
Howsabout not going genderbased, xcuse me biased at 'll:
"I'll never let you down!"
My turn:
"Sisters doing it for themselves"
"Danger Girls"
"Wonder Women"
"Male superhero fantasy? You wish."
"Beauty, brains and butt-kicking."
"Girl Power Redefined"
"Heroes in Heels" or "Lady Knights"
Best I've got.
Heck, as a woman, I think it's great that more comics are even being aimed towards my gender. I've always found it a pity that comics weren't marketed towards women, because they are soaps with more muscles and guns. And, more than that, I'm happy that the writer is a father of four daughters, because I believe I am the feminist that my father raised me to be.
I'm sick of those magazines that scream that a true woman is a vain, self-centered slut. My idea of a woman is someone who is self confident person who is intrested in what is going on in the world, in her community, and her enviroment, one that can be equaly as at home over an engine or a stove.
Rant off...
Dangerous Diamonds
The Power of a Woman
Just to get this outta my clogged system, and maybe get provoke some useful ideas from others:
How about "Lilith Dare," "Lilith Fray" or "Lilith Fierce?"
Each poaches on "Lilith Fair," but that may be just what you want to do.
Alternatively, how about "Lioness Rampant?"
OK..OK...I'll go away now...
Considering that Lilith was an arabian demon known for killing children, it probably wouldn't be such a good idea. (Her being Adam's first wife was a Midresh(sp?) attempt to incorporate her into the Hebrew mythology, just like the line of the Nephilim was meant to with the strongmen of Greek legends.) It'd be like having an "Incubus Fair".
What about...?
Three of a KInd
Lady's Luck
Something about ..."series name"
What's in a girl?
Las Chicas son guerreras (the girls are warriors, uuuugh)
The World Finest Lady's
The Sisterhood of Risk
Femenine instint
The Lady's Genre
The Lady's Game
I understand how much difficult it's to find a name.
Betweeen not writing english perfectly and having no idea about any kind of argot, i doubt many of this will be understood.
The idiot pretending to be Brian Bendis is nothing of the sort. The problem is that he logs on via AOL, and since AOL assigns IPs randomly, anyone logging in with AOL can wind up being unable to post (including me.) So while we work to get rid of him permanently, I would ask that no one respond to him. We will continue to delete his posts as they come up.
PAD
Why not tag the main features of the STORY, instead of the female leads.
Mr. DAvid, what would you consider the main theme of FA and the other books (what ARE these other books? I haven't found info on them yet)
Women seem to just *know* when a guy is trying to sell them something...
Farscape used the "Love Beyond Hope" tag (UK) to great effect...actually, if you want to get women to notice, why not crib some pages from the FS playbook?
In Previews you're selling to love-depraved shop owners...so a 'sexist' :p angle would actually *work*. (Yuck. They buy Image, don't they?)
But for general markets, a female oriented campaign would be needed. I'll contact some of my FS friends (most of whom are women) and ask them for some ideas...
To borrow from a Letterman-suggested book by Ike Turner: Womans Be Thinking Too Much
Chadwick just gave me the answer!
How about "Femmescape?"
>
Howabout:
Heaven sent... tainted by darkness.
or
Pure soul, wicked heart.
since i've only seen some art for your book, PAD, and can only guess the sort of art that could be used in the other 2 books...
"Might... With Ample Bosoms"
ok, so p.c. it ain't... but damn if i wouldn't read it.
and, for the record, i liked "Dangerous Curves," too.
-eD!
I've been discussing it with my friends, and here's what we've got:
Pete Lawson suggests:
Woman, Women, Womyn
Girls Gone Mild
Femme Noir
Hooters and Shooters
Kim Nowacki suggests:
Hell's Belles
Bitch Slap
Talk Dirty to Me
Randall Kirby suggests:
Revenge is a Dish.
(We weren't very good at picking PC names, though. - I'm surprised no one has said "Heroine Addiction" though.)
"X Chromosome? Who Needs It?"
also
"PAD Writes WonderGirl(or Arrowette) Again!"...ok, maybe not but gosh darnit, I want it to happen!
Col
For the record, I really did think Peter was just joking when he originally suggested "Dangerous Curves".
Anyway, how about:
REAL Women! Really. (or)
Don't Sterotype. Just Read It!
Well, considering the lateness of the hour and the shortness of series details...
How about Tales of Intuition: story name, taking the most popular response from above, Dangerous Curves for the noir tale, i.e. Tales of Intuition: Dangerous Curves? This could be used for more than three books if successful.
A play on female intuition but catchy enough for the male audience?
Lady (K)night Strikers
I know, its bad, but best I can come up with right now; anyway, my $.02 input: why doesn't PAD market the book with his name in this title? Like John Carpenter does with his movies, the title isn't "Big Trouble in Little China," but "John Carpenter's Big Trouble in Little China." So the title could be "Peter David's Yadayadayada." Whatever the best option is, obviously, fills in the yada's. But if he puts his name in the title, a) for current readers, they see his name and will read it, b) for new readers, they will see his name and will choose other titles by him after seeing how he treats the characters. Just a thought.
Chris
Sadly someone already came up with Hell on Heels
Though I might and something to that.
Hell on heels, Hear them Roar.
I really hope I don't have to explain that.
Violent Femmes hear them roar. but that might cause issues with the band.
The Gentler sex? Yeah right!
Girl power is probably totally over used.
Sugar spice but they ain't nice
i'm out for now
How about:
'Three female superheroes walk into a bar...'
Has anyone suggested POWER GRRRLS!
Sounds like something marketing would pitch...
Ooh,here's another one:
"Can't spell 'Superheroes' without S-H-E."
(or "They put the SHE in 'SuperHEroes'")
Sadly I think most us posters here suck at this. Man, I don't envy DC's Marketing Dept.
"What Bill Jemas Reads on Saturday Nights"
--your pal, Hoy
Strong Women
Sisters of Substance
Who Needs Men?
All That and Brains Too
The Toilet Seat Stays Down
How about:
"Angels of the Night"
"Angels by Night"
or
"Night Angels"
I think the last may be coming to Fox next Fall.
Feminine Mystique
Girls Just Wanna Kick Some
The Fiercer Sex
The Girls Next Door (for ironic contrast)
"Three Abreast"?
Seriously, though:
"Females are Deadlier"
"Vengeance is Hers"
"Hell Hath No Fury"
"Leading Ladies"
-Stev
Just for the record, I brought this up backwards to a female friend of mine, telling her first about women trying to speak for all women, how generalizations are patronizing and such (or matronizing? :p) and she did agree with the dichotomy in genders as to what attracts most men versus most women, but then I told her it all stemmed from the "Dangerous Curves" marketing line and she loved that one, thinking that those objecting to it, well, might not have curves or might not like the idea of a woman being dangerous, heh :) She did add though she'd find it offensive if the three books in question *did* focus on mindless T&A.
Anyway, I don't have a real marketing line idea, but I did come up with one in case Marketing would want to warn off women from these books:
"Just Say Ho!"
All in good fun ;)
"The Verti-Go-Go's"
Sorry... had to put that one in.
Ahem.
How about, and I don't know if you could do this without copyright infringement:
"Violent Femmes"
Or
"Violence Femmes"
Travis
Or to expand even further:
"Ultraviolet Femmes"
"Ultraviolent Femmes"
And I could go on, but it would get more annoying.
Travis
Making alternate suggestions would be easier with more information about the three books. But since PAD asked, here is my suggestion.
Blondes Girls have more fun.
The line through Blondes and the word Girls should be written in "lipstick" as if a woman (perhaps one of the heroines) came up and amended the poster. It might not be "risqué" per say, but I think it gets the point across.
Peter's right. Harder than it sounds to do this without sounding sexist rather than sexy....
Here goes:
(Sometimes you've got to....) Leave the legwork to experts.
Good Guys Finish Last
(isn't that what most women want?)
On Top. With Attitude.
In general I agree with the comment of doing something based on the characters or stories, but without any further info...
If you want to attract women, anything with "Ladies" in the title ain't going to cut it.
There were a few above I really liked:
From Kevin Brown:
3 women
Each with a goal
Each with a secret
Each with a mystery
Each unlike any woman you've ever known
From Marketing Man:
"Beauty, brains and butt-kicking." This would fit well into using Bodacious from the mythic Celtic heroine Bodica. (a more neutral name than Lilith)
and of course my personal favorite (though Dangerous Curves may be more marketable) from Alex Baker:
"My Eyes Are Up Here, Pig!"
(Two damn days too late but what the hell...)
HEROINE CHIC
One word over the limit but how about -
Our Bodies,
Our Minds,
Our Fights
Dangerous Curves is the BEST - and I'd go back and fight for it. Here's some more, anyway...
Girls Night Out
Dark Roses
Seductive Tales
Sirens
Beauty and Power
Irresistible Forces
Broken Hearts
Best of luck, PAD!
If you want to attract women, anything with "Ladies" in the title ain't going to cut it.
why?
but then I told her it all stemmed from the "Dangerous Curves" marketing line and she loved that one, thinking that those objecting to it, well, might not have curves or might not like the idea of a woman being dangerous, heh :
I wanna meet her. I like her style.
PAD
Zuradin asked about my response: If you want to attract women, anything with "Ladies" in the title ain't going to cut it.
why?
I do not think there are many women under the age of 30 who would like to be called a lady or who are familiar with the idea of being called a lady except in terms of a father telling their 5 to 11 year old daughter "Young Lady come down from there right now."
And along those lines in my opinion and experience, except in literature having to do with nobility, "lady" has fallen out of Contemporary American English as an appropriate reference to a strong, capable woman... with the exception of very formal complements... sorta the formal version of "hon" or "honey" -- which if said nicely can be complementary, but in isolation comes across as dimunative.
What, no-one's trotted out the ever-classic 'Venus Envy'?
The whole "grrl" thing bugged me when it was in vogue a couple of years ago, but these two things were all I could come up with without knowing anything much about the comics:
Oh! How about:
(or "Calling Them 'Chick' " or "Calling Them 'Honey' ")
...Arg! Too many words! I'm so very much not the marketing type!
I enjoy rhetoric and debate. I always thought that denigrating one's opponents was a sign that one wasn't capable of arguing the issues (a weakness in either your debating skills or the merits of your side).
those objecting to it, well, might not have curves or might not like the idea of a woman being dangerous
So now we're flat-chested. May as well go whole-hog and say we're frigid and hysterical while you're at it. Pay no mind to those silly girls who don't know what they're talking about...
If you really want to turn women readers away from these titles, keep writing like this. I'm a huge PAD fan from way back (among the rarer items in my collection are his first published story in Asimov's and the script to Knight Life), and these threads are pissing me off.
The notion that only successful creators are allowed to criticize is also a fallacy -- one I'm surprised (and dismayed) that you're succumbing to. I don't need to be a professional chef to express an intelligent opinion on the food at particular restaurants. I don't need to be a filmmaker to review films. I don't need to be a poet to discuss Shakespeare's sonnets, and I don't need to be a marketer to critique your idea. By that logic, maybe you should stop writing about the Bush administration and the war with Iraq unless you can conduct a better foreign policy.
I'll also point out that you're stacking the deck by challenging folks to come up with a "better" slogan without giving any information about the other titles, despite repeated requests. And then you get all snarky ("Good angle to take...") and smug because we can't meet your high standards, because you haven't given folks the necessary backgroud. Not nice.
Look. You've been told the slogan "Dangerous Curves" may turn some women away from these titles. You can ignore it, debate it, incorporate it, or whatever. But resorting to insults and sarcasm against those who pointed it out? I thought you were better than that. I feel disappointed and disillusioned.
PAD wrote: My reading of the thread had a majority of people chiming in going "Yeah! Women will be offended!
I went back and reread the posts in the threads dealing with the "Dangerous Curves" slogan (skimming those that wandered off into other tangents such as general misogyny or misandry). The earliest comments about finding the slogan offensive were not made by those critical of the slogan. They were made by those criticizing the critics. Elayne Riggs (who thru her work with Friends of Lulu probably knows something about attracting women to comics) very explicitly said that her comments are about effectiveness, not offensiveness.
But people defending the slogan (including you) ignored that and kept turning it back to a simple matter of offensiveness. And then, that's been used as a strawman to attack the critics as being too sensitive ("the kind of woman that gets offended at damn near anything.")
In other words, posters are stereotyping the critics into something more easily held up for ridicule, and then using that strawman to set up an impossible challenge that nobody was asking for ("can't be offensive to any woman anywhere") rather than dealing with the substance of the arguments against the slogan.
If, as your initial post began, you're hoping to "attract that great untapped resource, women" then you could do much worse than consult with Friends of Lulu for how best to market inclusively.
If, however, you're "not out to court a gender" as you wrote later, then this doesn't matter.
But expecting to attract women to your titles and belittling those who try to advise you on tactics that might not work... that's both illogical and counterproductive
"Let's Hear It For The Girls"
Yeah, I know it's six words.
Hooper
"Let's Hear It For The Girls"
Yeah, I know it's six words.
Hooper
Lis, the bit you highlighted didn't come from PAD, it came from me, a wholly different Peter. So he wasn't denigrating anyone, as far as I can tell.
Neither did I, at that. The comment you got dismayed at was made by a woman who is very sensible, who thinks men can easily be lured by sex while women generally need something more substantial, and who apparently felt that anyone getting on their high horse over a simple punny marketing line (the best one so far, let's face it) is taking him- or herself far too seriously.
As I also pointed out, she thought it'd be offensive if the books *were* centering around T&A. Most likely, they're not (this is DC, not Marvel). But based on what little we all know, "Dangerous Curves" is harmless, amusing, reminiscent of film noir *and* indicating that these new titles could throw us an interesting curve.
I don't have to be a marketeer to recognize that this is a great line (okay, so I'm studying marketing, doesn't mean anything ;)). But anyway, I thought I'd present a female point of view alongside my own, so if you're going to get annoyed, get annoyed at the right person :)
I can't help it if the automatic reaction to a silly argument is "hey, they're being silly". It sort of comes with the nature of the argument :p
PS to PAD: I'll pass your positive interest in her style along to my friend ;) (ironically enough, she's not really into your writing style, most of the time, heh--though I very much am, also most of the time, since even the best writers produce clunkers sometimes :p) I thought it was a very nice compliment though, appreciating your style the way I do, so thanks already from my end :)
Here's my two cents:
Enter at Own Risk
Angels of the Otherworldly
Dangerous Make-up
Kiss and Tell
Kiss and Make-up
Glamorous Looks, Dangerous Moves
No Strangers to Danger
Fight Now, Make-up Later
Angels Under Siege
Unfeminine Mystique
A different Peter wrote: The comment you got dismayed at was made by a woman...As I also pointed out, she thought it'd be offensive if the books *were* centering around T&A.
I know that, but PAD quoted that comment approvingly.
My point was (and remains), those who were initially objecting to that line weren't doing so because they were offended or thought that women would be offended.
The original complaint suggested that for women who aren't regular comic readers (maybe nonreaders, maybe just manga), that slogan might reinforce stereotypes about the types of women in mainstream comic books. Notice that's not saying anything about offensiveness, just that they'll nod and assume more bad girls that they wouldn't be interested in reading.
Now, instead of asking your female friend whether she thought women would or should be offended by that slogan, ask whether she thinks that slogan would (in PAD's words) "attract that great untapped resource, women." Would the slogan "Dangerous Curves" interest her or her female friends into buying those titles? What might they assume about the books in question if they saw that slogan? Forget offensiveness. Would it be effective?
Let me approach this from a slightly different angle -- past marketing lines that worked on me.
1. Put on a costume to fight crime in the streets? You'd have to be crazy!" That was used to market Mike Baron's Badger. It grabbed my attention (and my money) because it described what sounded like a very interesting premise for a comic.
2. She really is on a mission from God. That was used to market Evangeline. Again, it hooked me because it succinctly described an interesting-sounding premise. (The series itself, alas, focused too much on action, ignoring or underplaying much of the potential promised by the ad line.)
It's close to 2 decades later, and both those lines have stuck with me.
Instead of a marketing line designed to tell us the main characters of these 3 books are female, I'd go for a marketing line that described the story hooks. (Not knowing what those hooks are yet, I'm unable to come up with such a line.)
Using the word she or her in the line would be enough to tip most of us off that the book has a female lead.
Oooh. Really like most of Josh Bales' suggestions. Just scroll up two posts and re-read them!
Estrogen on Edge
Rag Time
PMS is for Sissies
Three for the Moon
Yep, stick with Dangerous Curves.
"Why should guys have all the fun?"
or
"Why let guys have all the fun?"
"Accessorize This!"
"Beyond the Mask Era" (think about it)
"We're girls. So deal."
"Have issues? Why not?" (again, think about it) or "Have issues? Get ours!"
"We Carry Our Own Books!"(I don't have to keep telling you to think about it, do I?)
Didn't know if this was still ongoing, but I thought I'd add my $0.02.
Budd
"Sugar, Spice, Bloody Knuckles and Vice."
"These boots were made for asskicking"
"They're Angels? So was the Devil..."
But then, what do I know? I like "Dangerous Curves".
Actually, rereading mine I want to modify two of them. If I may, these are the two I like best:
"They Carry Their Own Books!"
or
"Have Issues? Get Theirs!"
Budd
Or how about (in your best Bogart) "Damned dames are takin' over."
If this was a democracy, I'd vote for "Femme Noir." That would interest me as a reader more than "Dangerous Curves."
Humor points to "We Carry Our Own Books." :)
I ran "Dangerous Curves" by Ann, and she thought it sounded more like something aimed at guys than at female readers. She wasn't offended, she just wasn't terribly interested -- which goes to the point made upthread about it not being about offensiveness, but about effectiveness.
Many of the suggestions made in this thread boil down to, "Hey, Look! Girls!" which is rather different from a message that says "Hey Girls, Look!" -- a lot of them still seem to be aimed at guys, whether they're couched as instructions ("Don't Even Think About Calling Them Babe") or threats ("These Boots Are Going to Walk All Over You").
But if you want to appeal to women (by which I mean to large numbers, rather than the totality of women or to specific individual women), then the message would seem to need to say more than "Hey! Girls Here!" For one thing, focusing on the mere presence of female leads seems clueless, as if that alone is enough -- "Girlfrenzy" seemed to promise a catfight (or maybe a mosh pit), and "Dangerous Curves" seems to promise hot babes more than it does capable heroines. It might be different if it wasn't comics -- but in comics, the expectation is that women are objectified more often than not, so if it sounds anything like "Bad Girls for Fanboys," it'll be taken that way. The context is part of the message.
As such, I tend to think slogans with "Girls," "Ladies," "Curves," "Glamour," "Kisses," "Heels," "Make-Up" and other such words that would seem utterly normal on the cover of COSMO, would in the world of comics come off as leering or objectifying. A little too "You've Come a Long Way, Superbaby." Women aren't all about makeup and curves, but comics have a bad enough track record that the slogan isn't going to be taken as just one aspect of an assumed well-rounded treatment, but as a hint toward objectification. If the only thing in the slogan that identifies it as female-oriented is about appearance, then it's an exterior statement, and the default assumption is that it's stories about women aimed at guys. If the only word that identifies the slogan as female-oriented is "Girl" or "Lady," it's again more likely to be taken as an exterior comment. It's a tricky business, appealing to an audience whose general assumption is that you're all about appealing to someone else, but if it was easy, comics wouldn't have failed at it so often.
And slogans like "Taking Back the Night" are empowering when said by women, but when said by men seem a little patronizing, a kind of "Aww, look at what the chicks are up to, ain't it cute?" It's co-opting, and it backfires as often as it works.
And yeah, maybe at this point you're wondering, if you're going to assume the audience is this sensitive, why even try? I'd make two points in response -- first, that the whole point of outreach is to reach an audience not predisposed to like you, so if you can get the easy ones, fine, but if you can get the tough ones too, then that's even better. And second, that even customers you think are overly sensitive have money to spend. Promotion's about getting them to spend it, not about dismissing them as unreasonable.
Of all the slogans above, there were a couple that did the job content-wise but had no zing ("Strong Women," for instance, is a label, not an enticement; it's, you should pardon the expression, flat). The only one that struck me as having elements that seemed empowering and enticing was "Females Are Deadlier," but even then I'd recast it as "Deadlier Than The Male."
It identifies the books as being about women without resorting to being about appearance -- it's not external. And it says they're tough and capable. And sure, it's from a line about black widow spiders, but even so, it's more about capability than appearance.
And if the line is FALLEN ANGEL, CINNAMON and some other book, it at least fits the two we know about.
kdb
And along those lines in my opinion and experience, except in literature having to do with nobility, "lady" has fallen out of Contemporary American English as an appropriate reference to a strong, capable woman... with the exception of very formal complements... sorta the formal version of "hon" or "honey" -- which if said nicely can be complementary, but in isolation comes across as dimunative.
now that is a shame
A different Peter wrote: The comment you got dismayed at was made by a woman...As I also pointed out, she thought it'd be offensive if the books *were* centering around T&A.
I know that, but PAD quoted that comment approvingly.
My point was (and remains), those who were initially objecting to that line weren't doing so because they were offended or thought that women would be offended.
The original complaint suggested that for women who aren't regular comic readers (maybe nonreaders, maybe just manga), that slogan might reinforce stereotypes about the types of women in mainstream comic books. Notice that's not saying anything about offensiveness, just that they'll nod and assume more bad girls that they wouldn't be interested in reading.
Now, instead of asking your female friend whether she thought women would or should be offended by that slogan, ask whether she thinks that slogan would (in PAD's words) "attract that great untapped resource, women." Would the slogan "Dangerous Curves" interest her or her female friends into buying those titles? What might they assume about the books in question if they saw that slogan? Forget offensiveness. Would it be effective?
course you seem to forget the line would come hopefully come with artwork etc. the would help convey the intention/feeling of the line
The best I could come up with with was "The Females of the Species...". After all, Deadlier than the Male is already taken.
I pulled out my record collection while updating my website. And it just hit me.
Undiscovered Pleasures.
It's suggestive, it leads to a lot of meanings- all of which might apply to the titles in question.
just a thought
I was listening to Billy Joel the other day, and while I don't usually recommend using song lyrics -- why not some varition on some of the lyrics in this song --
"...(she's) Always a Woman (to me)"
but not going with a cliche like "women's work"
Perhaps "Always a Woman _"
the blank could be a rotating sentiment by month.
Can't be used, but I do like the "Heroine-Chic" line mentioned above.
And what is this Cinnamon mentioned by Kurt Busiek.....
At comicon.com's "Pulse" site, there's an article up about the new CINNAMON series by ... I think it's Jen van Meter.
It being part of this new troika is just a guess on my part.
kdb
My really cliche teasing suggestions for a
TITLE:
Y? Not!
Hera Chicks
Unfeminine Mystique
Cron(e)ic Danger
Triple XX Action!
The Sisters of Merciless
The Adventures of Ms. Anthrope
Mind, Less Bimbos
UnTrampled
Remember, I was *j/k* on the above.
More serious, slightly less cheesy suggestions for tidals, er, I mean, titles:
Diana Noir
Athena Risen
Luna Regina
Obsidian Visage
Morrigan, Morgaine, Morgan
*sigh*
Tough parameters, trying to scream "woman" without using any of the more cliched cliches.
This is about finding a tagline that falls enticingly on neophyte female ears without running the fellas off, right? Okay, I'll have a go.
All Damsels, No Distress
Heroine...Uncut
Men Rule...That's The Problem
X = POWER!
I'll "Weaker Sex" You, Y'bastard
Cunning, Stunning, and Stilleto-Sharp
Got Power?
And, of course, my personal favorite:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU
Trust me...a lot of women will gravitate to that last one.
Let me conclude by saying that "Sisterhood Of Risk" is rather catchy, and that "Gyn-o-mite" is the worst bloody pun since "show me the Monet". Personally, I dont' find 'Dangerous Curves' offensive, just a little tired. I expect more from the guy who managed to sneak the line "There's nothing wrong with DICK" into a hetero vs. homo debate in a very mainstream comic. Ironically, he's the same guy who gave us "show me the Monet". Go figure.
The only one I've seen that I *really* is Josh Bales'
Kiss and Tell
What about:
Feminine Savant
I am not your doll
What She Said
Her-story
By the grace of Godess