I informed DC about the discussion over "Dangerous Curves" (a phrase I still like, by the way) and referred them to this site in case they were interested in possible alternatives. "Femme Noir" strikes Dan Didio's fancy at the moment, although there's no certainty yet what they'll go with.
PAD
Posted by Peter David at April 9, 2003 09:56 AM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingAny word yet on what the other titles in the "line" might be (or, at least, be like)?
Femme noir is good.
I like Dangerous Curves also.
I tried a few myself, but did not come up with anything better. Good marketing hooks are not easy.
Bobby
Bobby Nash
Writer @ Large
Ummm...isn't Femme Noir already being used as the name of a web comic by Christopher Mills and Joe Staton?
I still say this marketing hook business sounds fishy.
What's their line of thought?
I guess they plan on reeling us in.
They would hate to think they let the big one get away.
Sorry. I'm all a-wash in a sea of confusion, and just trolling through the puns.
Ok. I'll beach my conversation now.
Aloha!
I was going to post the same thing about Chris Mills' Webcomic. I'll have to direct him to the conversation here...
RECAP FOR EASIER READING:
Stuff I suggested included taking a look at the Billy Joel lyric "She's Always a Woman to me" and thinking of some variation --
1) because ALWAYS is a good marketing word
2) WOMAN is a better female attractor than "dame" or "lady" or "babes"
Other things to keep in mind- historical words like Bodacious which comes from Celtic Heroine Bocida and to see if there are any words based on QUEEN ESTER.
Finally, I think I recal in independent comic called "Dangerous Curves" from a San Diego Con a few years ago, and I think they had more than one issue.
NEW if the editors really like "femme" why not a word that implies it, rather than says it like "Mystique" from the cliche phrase "feminine mystique" -- the word also implies the noir element that Peter said one of the titles would reflect, and would also be appropriate for "crime-fighting adventurers," stories with magic, or mystical.
Unfortunately, DC's not likely to use the name of a Marvel character (Mystique) in their advertising. Too bad; it's a good idea otherwise.
Is this going to be something sort of like Danger Girl? That could be super-cool, especially if it's riotously funny, y'know? Well, if you can get such a project worked out, even I'd certainly like to see what it's like.
Peter,
You and Dan should know Chris Mills (former editor and writer at Teckno Comics) has a web site www.supernaturalcrime.com and it features a web strip called FEMME NOIR.
Bob
As several people have pointed out here, Joe Staton and I have been doing an online comic strip called FEMME NOIR for two years which is read by several thousand people a month, and are currently producing several print stories for AC Comics featuring our character. Our representative is also in the process of shopping around a comic book miniseries of that title.
Ummm...isn't Femme Noir already being used as the name of a web comic by Christopher Mills and Joe Staton?
You and Dan should know Chris Mills (former editor and writer at Teckno Comics) has a web site www.supernaturalcrime.com and it features a web strip called FEMME NOIR.
Where the hell were you guys in the previous thread? 131 messages, the line is suggested, seconded, and no one says boo about it? No one says, "Hey, that's already in play."
Great. Now I gotta go tell Dan we can't use that one.
Screw it. I hope they stick with "Dangerous Curves."
PAD
As several people have pointed out here, Joe Staton and I have been doing an online comic strip called FEMME NOIR for two years which is read by several thousand people a month, and are currently producing several print stories for AC Comics featuring our character. Our representative is also in the process of shopping around a comic book miniseries of that title.
And yet not one person could be bothered to point that out when it was first suggested.
Folks...next time people want to complain about how DC goes about endeavoring to market a title, or next time you read a thread in which fans thump their chests and talk about how they can do better..keep this incident in mind.
I just got off the phone with Dan. DC's going with "Dangerous Curves." Anyone who doesn't like it...deal with it.
I'm going to take some aspirin.
PAD
While I don't know where everyone else was, I've never been to your board until today. Thankfully, Julio directed me to the discussion.
"That title is terrible, use this one!"
"That's my title, don't even think about stealing it!"
Somedays, you can't win.
Where the hell were you guys in the previous thread? 131 messages, the line is suggested, seconded, and no one says boo about it? No one says, "Hey, that's already in play."
Hey, sorry, man. If even Superman can't be everywhere, I certainly can't be... ;-)
And yet not one person could be bothered to point that out when it was first suggested.
Saying that nobody "could be bothered" to point out the similarity makes it sound like folks actively participating in the discussion knew of and recognized it, but didn't mention it out of malice or laziness. But, of course, it is quite possible that not one person of those actively participating in the conversation were aware of the Mills/Staton webcomic. Which would make it a matter of understandable ignorance rather than malice or lassitude...
Myself, I don't read every comment on every thread on this (or any other) site when I visit, and didn't happen to slog through the entirety of that thread over the past few days. Sorry. Had I done so, I'm sure I would have mentioned it.
But inasmuch as the lesson of all this is "Marketing is more difficult than it looks" then that's a good thing to have demonstrated--for fans and professionals alike.
I'm going to take some aspirin.
If that doesn't work, I sometimes find giving a baby a hug and a squeeze to be just as therapeutic as conventional painkillers...
I think PAD's "Where were you?" rants read better if you picture Kermit the Frog, his face scrunched up, waving his arms in final frustration with Fozzy.
Sorry, PAD. I tend to not go back and reread threads unless there was some interesting conversation going on. I didn't read the other thread far enough to see the "Femme Noir" suggestion, or I certainly would have mentioned it there as Chris is a pal.
Hate to cause you a headache -- I can only imagine what this is like.
Incidentally, I happen to like "Dangerous Curves" better for this line's slogan, anyway, given the symmetry of Dangerous Curves and D(angerous) C(urves) Comics.
This isn't the first time this "why didn't you comment on my response" thing has happened to me. I ran into a friend I hadn't seen in some time at MegaCon (hi, Yves!) who thought I was mad at him about a response here 'cause I hadn't acknowledged it. I simply hadn't seen it. Oops.
Pitty about "Femme Noir", I suppose; that had a slight ring to it.
'Course, I do like the general feel of "Dangerous Curves" (take the double entendre if you will), too, as it seems reminiscent of Ellison's "Dangerous Visions" (whether that's a good omen to be conjuring remains to be seen); I just agree with those who doubt its ability to bring in female readership. Ah well, c'est la vie, and I'd love to be wrong on that one...
PAD you have always been right, Dangerous Curves is cool and anyone who find that un-PC is just over sensitive.
It's not like you are going to use "Dangerous Skanks".
The term Dangerous Curves which I think you mentioned Kathleen suggested to you, is a great hook which my girlfriend (who doesnt read comics) thought was great as well.
Yea! Dangerous Curves was the best by far anyway. If you say something sucks, be prepared to cough up something better. Not a bad way to approach life as well as comic book titles. :)
And just to REALLY cap everything, Dan Didio and I were sent lawyer's letters stating that it had come to their attention we were planning a new project called "Femme Noir" and we had best not do so.
"Dangerous Curves." Should never have doubted it.
PAD
You and Mr. Didio received letters from my lawyer simply notifying you that a title you had publicly announced was under consideration for association with a DC project was unavailable. That's it. There was nothing threatening in the text.
It was simply a reasonable precaution taken to protect a property that Joe Staton and I have invested two years and considerable cash into establishing. I'm quite certain that if the situation was reversed, you would have done the same.
Nobody was trying to stir up a conflict, and there was nothing hostile in our actions.
For what it's worth, I've been a fan of your work for years. However, I do resent the implication that Joe and I were in any way unreasonable about this.
Regardless, I wish you great success with FALLEN ANGEL and your other projects.
Seems a bit reactionary to sick the lawyers on Dan and Peter, mmmm. Maybe dropping Peter an email or letter with your concern would have been a bit more friendly. Wouldn't call 'em hostile actions...but certainly not the kind of response from folks I would invite for dinner. Good luck with Femme Noir...not that I'll be looking it up. Something to be said for simple courtesy.
Chris, there was no implication to resent. PAD said he got a letter. I'd be more ticked by your post above than by a legal note that "Femme Noir" was taken...
Man, see if PAD ever asks US for advice again... :)
"You and Mr. Didio received letters from my lawyer simply notifying you that a title you had publicly announced was under consideration for association with a DC project was unavailable. That's it. There was nothing threatening in the text.
It was simply a reasonable precaution taken to protect a property that Joe Staton and I have invested two years and considerable cash into establishing. I'm quite certain that if the situation was reversed, you would have done the same.
Nobody was trying to stir up a conflict, and there was nothing hostile in our actions.
For what it's worth, I've been a fan of your work for years. However, I do resent the implication that Joe and I were in any way unreasonable about this.
"
I think you would be more sympathtic to mr. david's posts if you had been following the headache indcuing posts of the last several blogs
It was simply a reasonable precaution taken to protect a property that Joe Staton and I have invested two years and considerable cash into establishing. I'm quite certain that if the situation was reversed, you would have done the same.
Even after Peter made it clear he hadn't been aware of your comic, and then said:
Great. Now I gotta go tell Dan we can't use that one.
Screw it. I hope they stick with "Dangerous Curves."
I just got off the phone with Dan. DC's going with "Dangerous Curves."
...you still felt it necessary to lawyer up?
Did it occur to you that hitting DC with a lawyer letter based on something Peter wrote on his site could cause problems for Peter?
Not cool.
Even after Peter made it clear he hadn't been aware of your comic
...you still felt it necessary to lawyer up?
Hmm,..Peter mentioned he hadn't heard of the comic, and was going back to the dangerous curves title, and then 4 hours later mentioned the letter. Do really think that they (in less than 4 hours) saw the first post about him not using the Femme Noir name, contacted the lawyer, and had a letter sent, and then David had time to post another posting. Or do you think it's more likely they contacted the Lawyer hours before they saw David retract his intent to use the name....hmmm.....
Now, I'm not saying I agree with them contacting the lawyer. I'm not in the industry, so I'm not sure how protective you have to be. However, the idea of taking on AOL/TM would scare the crap out of me if I was a little guy, so I might be inclined to nip it quickly. I'm just saying don't accuse them of something unless you know they hired that lawyer after the effect or not....(innocent until proven, and all that jazz).
Christopher Mills wrote:
You and Mr. Didio received letters from my lawyer simply notifying you that a title you had publicly announced was under consideration for association with a DC project was unavailable. That's it. There was nothing threatening in the text.
Crimminy! No matter how innocent you try to spin this, this smacks of the dreaded lawyer syndrome. A simple e-mail or letter to DC or PAD would have been more appropriate. Also, did you have your lawyer write your post as well?
You and Mr. Didio received letters from my lawyer simply notifying you that a title you had publicly announced was under consideration for association with a DC project was unavailable. That's it. There was nothing threatening in the text.
I never said it was threatening. Perhaps the terseness of my summary made it come across that way. Then again, I've been in way better moods in my life.
It was simply a reasonable precaution taken to protect a property that Joe Staton and I have invested two years and considerable cash into establishing. I'm quite certain that if the situation was reversed, you would have done the same.
No. No, not really. If the situation were reversed, and you'd said--as I did--"Now I gotta go tell (whomever) we can't use that one, I would have accepted that. The direct inference I draw is that you didn't accept my word. That bothers me just a hair.
Furthermore, there was nothing reasonable when the reality was a fan-suggested marketing slogan, and the letter from your attorney instead stated we were planning to use "Femme Noir" as a title for a new project. We were told not to do something we weren't planning to do in the first place, and considering it was my bright idea to throw the floor open to fan suggestions, it made me wind up looking pretty bad to the PTB at DC.
No, Chris. I'm sorry. I don't want to be a hardcase about this but...not reasonable. And lawyers are, for me, a last resort, not a first.
PAD
Do really think that they (in less than 4 hours) saw the first post about him not using the Femme Noir name, contacted the lawyer, and had a letter sent, and then David had time to post another posting. Or do you think it's more likely they contacted the Lawyer hours before they saw David retract his intent to use the name
Check the times on the posts. At 2:26 PM, Julio says he's going to give Chris a heads-up about this thread. At 4:00 PM
Chris Mills checks in, confirming that he is doing a webcomic entitled Femme Noir. At 4:04 PM, PAD says DC won't be using that title. At 4:15 Chris posts again saying that this thread was the first time he'd ever come to the website, and Julio had directed him to this thread.
So, based on that timeline, it is impossible that Chris contacted his lawyer hours before seeing Peter's post.
It is physically possible for him to have contacted his lawyer and had him fire off the letter sometime in the hour and 45 minutes between Julio saying he was going to notify him, and him acknowledging Peter's post.
But given the way legal processes work, I find that substantially less likely than him contacting the lawyer in the 4 and half hours between him acknowledging Peter's post and Peter mentioning the lawyer letters.
Sorry to bore everyone.
Have to agree that going to the lawyers was unreasonable. Christopher, the *first* step should've been emailing or snail mailing Peter just saying "Hey, so-and-so told me you're considering using Femme Noir for something. Wanted to let you know I've got an existing web comic named that that I do with Joe Staton and we're shopping it around to other venues. I'd appreciate it if you could let me know that now that I've let you know about it, which you can see at URL, you and DC won't be using Femme Noir."
Now, if Peter didn't respond, or wrote back "Tough. We're AOL, and we're using it anyway, I laugh at your puny webcomic", yeah, then get the lawyers. But why not try to settle it like a reasonable person first?
Pfft. I bet DC could get the Time-Warner Defense Lawyer Co. all over this one.
Ten, after the smoke clears, do a little 1984-esque history revision. There was never a comic by Christopher Mills called "Femme Noir." That name was made up by PAD during a drunken 'lude binge back in 1979. "Christopher Mills?" Never heard of'im. He any relation to Christopher Priest?
Y'dig?
Just thought this was all kind of funny. Especially after watching the documentary on the good disc for Who Framed Roger Rabbit in which one of the animators/producers described Jennifer Rabbit as being "loaded with dangerous curves". I didn't think anything of that except, "He's right...she is." The trade dress and title would certainly get MY attention. Don't know if I'd buy any of the books or not JUST because of that. I'd rather let the books help me with that decision. That's like not buying something because it has the image I on it. OR buying something because it DOES. Seems silly and pointless. As for Femme Noir, that turned me of of it. Would still look at the books description and all but wouldn't get my attention the same way. My thoughts on NOIR are all negative (slow pace, boring exposition heavy dialogue, flat characters, etc). And last time I checked, there were people whose job it was to actually check the legality of any name being suggested so they probably would have found out about it. Think back to the Gen13 vs Generation X thing. Ok, that's all for me...gonna go read about Angel now.
Hey, Peter, I'm sorry you're getting unnecessary flak lately. The "sexist" stuff was bad enough, but you're good natured responses to the "Femme Noir" title resulting in an unpleasant letter from an attorney really blows. The site is always good for interesting discussions about the comic industry, Star Trek, sci fi TV. And it's not like anyone is owed this. I take it as a gift that we're allowed a glimpse into the behind-the scenes of the entertainment worlds and I think most of the people who visit this site feel the same way. So, thanks for this opportunity, and don't get too down on the recent negative stuff. Keep on going strong. Thanks-JimO
There are too many buffoons who resort to Lawyers at the drop of a hat without even trying to be nice first,unfortunately!
Maybe we should have drafted half of the lawyers in this country and sent them to Baghdad to plague Sodamn Insane and his crowd instead of the military.Then we'd kill off two birds with 1 stone,Saddam and the lawyers!!!
L.O.L.
Seriously though anyone who has received such a letter cannot help but perceive a threat,as several of my friends can attest to.Next time try a polite personal contact first,then if you don't get results,let the legal eagles have at it.
The abuse of notes from lawyers is kind of considered unfriendly, Christopher. What ever happened to a friendly e-mail?
" I've been in way better moods in my life."
Speaking as one of the people who may have put you in the bad mood. (I'm the "Marlo was often defined by her looks" guy...), I feel like once again an apology is in order. I was trying to inject into the whole deal something that vaguely resembled a well-structured argument, to counteract some of the more PC, knee-jerking stuff that was being sent your way. Instead, in context, I probably just seemed like one more reactionary bozo on the attack. Damn. So... sorry about that.
"considering it was my bright idea to throw the floor open to fan suggestions, it made me wind up looking pretty bad to the PTB at DC."
Wow. I've never seen someone who, as often as you, tries to do right by his fans and then gets screwed for it. The "Captain Marvel" re-launch seemed to piss off as many fans as it pleased; this willingness to consider a new marketing hook gets you into trouble; and of course, this blog itself, which should be a forum for intelligent debate, so often turns into a "let's get PAD"-fest.
Sucks. Hopefully you realize that there are still a large number of us out here who appreciate all that you do for your fans. I certainly do.
Jason
Hopefully you realize that there are still a large number of us out here who appreciate all that you do for your fans. I certainly do.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's a shame when you try to do something cool for your fans and you get shafted for it.
Regardless of this crap, I've always felt "Dangerous Curves" was a witty idea.
And what's funny is that it is only because of this easy access, informal discussion site that this Mills guy was able to forestall any possible unpleasantness (and got a little free publicity). I always say no good deed goes unpunished. -JimO
P.S. Though it was nice to hear that Joe "E-Man" Staton is getting some work.
Since when did making it official mean that someone is being hateful or reactionary?
In these times, it's always best to protect yourself and your creations. And if what Mr. Mills wrote is true, that is all that happened here. Sure, a letter or email to PAD or Didio would have been enough for them and would have assured that the name not be used-but that's not enough in a court of law, should that have NOT been enough. Just because you like someone's writing style doesn't mean you trust them like a brother.
I think all of these 'PAD is being beaten up here. How DARE a lawyer contact him?' messages are the ones that are being reactionary. Since everyone involved here is a professional, I don't understand why this lawyer's letter was such a surprise to anyone and I especially don't understand why it's being viewed as an insult.
Fred Michaels
Well, sending a letter to prevent someone from doing they weren't going to do anyway doesn't strike me as hugely professional. I mean, you don't even need to follow the discussion (just PAD's posts) to figure out that it was a marketing hook being discussed, not the title of a book. The professional thing to do is to ascertain the facts before taking action.
The only way to keep a trademark is to police it. Sending a letter provides evidence that the owners have been diligent in asserting their rights. Anyone remember a character called Captain Marvel from the 40's? The trademark was taken over by an unrelated company, who now publishes a very interesting comic book by that name that does not star Billy Batson's alter ego. While no one likes getting letters from a lawyer or the government, it is part of how intellectual property is dealt with. So, it's a shame that it embarassed Peter with DC management, but I think they of all people would recognize why it was done.
Now, let's get Peter to give us some teasers about upcoming issues of Soulsearchers and Company . . . .
Peter,
I can't speak for any of the others, but I can speak for myself vis-a-vis the question: where were you the when this discussion was going down before?
I must confess that I don't always time to read all of the follow-up comments to the threads. I may read what you post, but not always the follow-ups.
The previous discussion of possible marketing being one of them. Dangerous Curves didn't bother me, and I didn't read the follow-up discussions. So I didn't see any mention of Femme Noir.
It wasn't until you mentioned it in one of your posts that I first realized that you were considering this phrase. As soon as I did, I posted to you about the problem I perceived.
Sorry I missed the earlier posts so didn't alert you earlier.
Hey Peter:
This whole thing was a nice idea, and it was fun to make people feel involved. It's really too bad it ended up biting you in the ass.
Nice guys finish last. Sometimes. Sad but true. Just don't let stuff like this discourage you from being a nice guy.
RM.