I'm doing a column on what was the best superhero movie ever made (not counting the serials from the 40s and 50s.)
Any thoughts?
PAD
Posted by Peter David at April 22, 2003 01:01 PM | TrackBack | Other blogs commentingI'm torn whenever I consider this. Two choices come to mind:
1.) Superman: The Movie. Richard Donner did a great job of bringing the iconic Superman to live and making us all believe a man could fly. Pa Kent's collapse in the field brings a lump to my throat every time. And the Fortress of Solitude scene's breathtaking. Whenever I see the film, I feel like I'm a kid again.
2.) The Rocketeer. It's a great homage to the serial-era films, with swashbuckling adventure and romance served up without any irony. This one, I saw in my late teens, I think, and it left me just as breathless and awed (and not just because of Jennifer Connelly).
One's an obvious pick; the other is probably written off as a kids' movie since it was done by Disney. But those are my two contenders.
Superman The Movie. Not only the best superhero film of all time but maybe one of the greatest American films of the last thirty years. It had drama, comedy, action, and romance. It took it's subject matter seriously and it made a skeptical audience, who wasn't sure a man could fly, believe.
Well, it depends on your criteria - are you concentrating on Comic Book adaptations? If not, Darkman is an option.
I'm fond of The Rocketeer, although I haven't seen it in years.
Superman II is great, although not without it's flaws.
Spider-Man was just missing- something- for me. I've never been able to put my finger on it. I actually preferred Daredevil. Pulpier.
Of course, you can get into the infinite debate over what is a superhero. Is James Bond? Is the Terminator in T2? Is Buffy? Is Angel?
As long as you don't answer with the Golan and Globus Captain America, I won't argue too heavily.
Superman. The Batman and SpiderMan movies were great, but Superman was the first to make a superhero REAL. And if you leak into Superman II, the battle in Metropolis (throwing a bus, tossing a villain into the Coke sign in Times Square) is still the only "Super Fight" I've ever seen worthy of a comic book.
My first thought is either Superman I or II. But then I think of Nicholson's performance in Batman and I realize it's a tight race. Gotta give the small nod to the Boy Scout's first though.
Road to Perdition would have been #1 if it weren't for "the trigger not pulled" change.
Tobin
-tpl
Either Batman Returns or Daredevil. Those where some real good ones.
But please, heaven strike you down if you do, DON'T even think about the last two Batman Films. Those ones stunk, and should be wiped from the face of the earth.
Just kidding, but really, try to put the past Two Batman films out of your mind.
I also have to agree with Superman: The Movie--which is just about as pitch-perfect as you can expect--and The Rocketeer--which is a just-plain-fun, rousing adventure that's too often unfairly overlooked. (I love the moment when Paul Sorvino's mobster turns on Timothy Dalton after he learns the latter is a Nazi. "I may not make an honest living, but I am one hundred percent American!")
Superman II's super-powered fight in Metropolis was fantastic, too. I suspect that the upcoming Matrix sequels will include some aerocombat that will put Superman II to shame, but that shouldn't make us forget how ground breaking and incredible that whole sequence was.
For the historical minded, I'd suggest The Adventures of Captain Marvel as the best of the old-time movie serials' comics adaptations.
I note Darkman was mentioned, too. Didn't PAD mention this movie as a perfect comic book movie (just without having originated in comics) in a BID years ago?
"What constitutes a super hero?" Good question. Because, when the Gauls take their magic potion in the ASTERIX movies, they become easily as strong as SPIDER-MAN. If they qualify, I'd give the second ASTERIX film (MISSION CLEOPATRE) the nod.
As for SUPERMAN, it would have qualified, but blew it on two fronts.
This is the movie where the WB folks got their inspiration for Pinky & the Brain. Look at the bad guys: one's a genius, the other's ... well, not insane, exactly, but a dolt. Certainly not the sort of useless git Luthor would have as right-hand man.
Worse: once Supes is shown turning back the clock by flying the right way around the Earth, all suspense, er, flew out the window as we knew that, no matter what happens, Supes can make it right by going back in time. Bad move, that.
Those two bad screwups really hurt the film for me and took it out of the running.
If tv movies count, I'd give, not first prize, but definitely honorary mention to the DOCTOR STRANGE film (1977). Low budget, but it was fun, even without a wizened Chinese as the Ancient One. And, oh! that Morgan! *drool*
The best superhero movie? My vote goes to Superman! Although I also liked the first Batman flick, Superman was easier to believe thanks to a more convincing Metropolis over Gothamcity + the fact that Christopher Reeves portrayed a very convincing hero (very unlike Dean Cain with his flashy suit in 'Lois and Clark') which doesn't seem as simple (Ben Affleck, anyone?) as a lot of actors seem to think. How about the worst superhero movie ever? 'Nick Fury: Agent of Shield (David Hasselhoff)', 'Fantastic Four' or 'Generation X'?
If you consider Batman a "Super" hero, then I suggest that no super hero movie has as much, fun, thrills, and adventure as...
The Mask of Zorro
Have to agree with Superman: The Movie. It is the only one of the superhero flicks that I see as a classic. Amazing performances by all involved, iconic score, etc. Honorary mention goes to Unbreakable. Even though not directly based on a comic, just an amazing film.
Superman: The Movie; slightly edging out the first sequel because I just can't abide Zod's magic levitating finger zap or the superpower-reversal-chamber-double-cross-thingy at the end.
The Rocketeer; largely forgotten (except by this crowd it would seem) but I felt it was spot-on in every way.
Honorable mention for X-Men; just because I love seeing Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen acting opposite one another. I would have gladly paid $$$ for an X-film that consisted of nothing but a two-hour chess match between them.
Good Question: "Best Superhero Film Ever?" The first thing that would need to be answered is, "What type of Superhero?". Comic based, science fictional, or just fictional.
I'm torn on this question since there are a couple of Super Hero films I enjoy to watch over and over.
SuperMan,Blade,Spider-Man are amoung the best comic to the big screen films in my opinion.
The movie "The Rocketeer" is a favorite of mine also just because it seems be very well-rounded and easier to relate to.
All in all, just too many to choose from and then try to label it the best.
Some great choices there.
I have to agree that Superman and Batman are both deserving of the nod. Reeves and Nicholson really brought their respective parts to life.
The Matrix is just a kick ass comic book movie. And I wholeheartedly agree with John H. above that Mask of Zorro is pure comic book fun.
X-Men and Spider-man hit pretty close to their source material, which is a big plus in my book. And they were entertaining.
It surprises me that the Blade movies are not mentioned. As good as these other films are, I give the Blade series high marks for what it accomplished.
I'm not sure if any of that actually answered your question.
Bobby
Bobby Nash
Writer @ Large
Superman- The Movie
It's gonna be a long time before they top this one.
Daredevil
Derivative, sure, but it had the heart and soul that are sorely misssing in a lot of comic-books flicks. And there are shots in the film that look just like vintage Gene Colan panels.
Batman
I'm gonna have to give this a tie with Daredevil. As a twelve year old kid at the time this came out, Batman became my only obsession for years afterward. I ate the cereal, hung the posters on my wall and screened the VHS tape daily until I memorized every single line of dialouge. That's the test of a great movie- if it drives you completely insane.
I'd have to with Spider-man or Superman. Both were excellent, stayed true to their comic book forebearers, and were just lots of fun.
I think Superman I and Spider-Man have come closest to accurately adapting comic book superheroes to the screen, while still being quality movies in their own right.
However, for me the best superhero movies are the ones that are not actually based on a published character, such as The Matrix, Darkman and RoboCop.
These movies are not forced to choose what elements of a previously existing character to keep, alter or discard in order to adapt them to the screen. It's a necessary process for any adaptation, which can dilute the original appeal of the concept. Also, because the original source is not a comic book, there is less tendency for producers to feel the need to incorporate "camp" elements into the film.
Having said that, I have also enjoyed, to varying degrees, comic book-adapted superhero movies such as Batman I and Batman Forever, The Rocketeer, The Phantom, The Crow, the Blade movies, X-men and Daredevil.
Superhero movies that didn't do it for me: Supes III & IV, Batman Returns, Batman&Robin, Supergirl, Swamp Thing, The Shadow, the Crow sequels and (as if this really needs to be even said) the early 90s Captain America and Punisher.
Wait- you know what was a kick-ass movie? Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins. Of course, I was only 11 at the time...
I don't know whether I 'd call it the very best Super-Hero film. But if the Rocketeer is a contender then so should The Phantom.Pure unbridled pulpy fun, without constantly and annoyingly winking at he audience the way the Shadow was. He's Tarzan, Indiana Jones and Batman all roled into one.
This is the movie where the WB folks got their inspiration for Pinky & the Brain. Look at the bad guys: one's a genius, the other's ... well, not insane, exactly, but a dolt. Certainly not the sort of useless git Luthor would have as right-hand man.
I understand folks who hate the campy elements from the first Superman movie. It is absurd that Lex Luthor has an underground lair in the heart of the city, an attractive moll and a doltish sidekick. But at the same time, campy elements like that are part of the Superman mythos (I mean, who really turns evil because they go bald?) so I appreciate how the movie incorporated some of that lighter flavor without letting it overpower the movie (as happened in the later Batman films.) My opinion only; your mileage may vary.
Worse: once Supes is shown turning back the clock by flying the right way around the Earth, all suspense, er, flew out the window as we knew that, no matter what happens, Supes can make it right by going back in time. Bad move, that.
The time-travel climax of the first Superman is doubtlessly controversial. Within the space of the movie itself, it doesn't bother me as a suspense-killer since it's the last super-feat Superman does. It makes sense that Superman's last super act in the film is the most super yet. (IIRC, when originally the first two movies were being developed together, the time-travel climax would have ended the second movie; the creators brought it to the end of the first one in case the sequel never got made so that they could still show that most super of super feats.) And the fact that Superman can travel in time doesn't kill the suspense of his future adventures for me any more than other sorts time-travel stories in Star Trek or Back to the Future or whatever else. Time travel stories intrinsically involve a lot of suspension of disbelief; nothing in the Superman movie climax makes me unable to suspend that disbelief--either for the single movie itself or for its sequels. But again, your mileage may vary.
When I went to see Unbreakable, I left the theatre feeling like I had just read a really good comic.
Superman I, Blade I and Batman I are my votes for best.
I'd have to put my vote in for "Superman" or "Superman II" (or the both of them together).
Christopher Reeve had just the right look to pull the part off - and, for two hours, you actually could suspend your disbelief enough to feel that man *could* fly.
Now, if the last two films could somehow make their way into a black hole, or some other singularity, we'd be just fine...
For me, it would have to be the first Superman movie. Saying it had its flaws is like saying a beautiful, vivacious woman eats crackers in bed. I wouldn't kick her out for a few crumbs!
Everyone seems to be on the same track...
The first two Superman movies were really good, if you ignore the couple of major flaws each has.
The first Batman was well done, if a major departure from the comic...
And the Spider-Man and X-men movies were well done, if again you ignore the flaws...
But I wonder if "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm" counts? I know it isn't a live action movie, but it was a cinematic release, and it was pretty true to the character.
Plus Mark Hamills' Joker is hilarious.
And what about "the Shadow"?
My money goes to:
Superman I: I did believe a man could fly.
Superman II: The best supervillian fight ever!
Batman: Tim Burton rules!
Spider-Man: I'm biased. Spidey has always been my favorite superhero. That being said, Raimi hit the nail on the head with this movie. Only thing I didn't like was the Goblin's costume.
I've got to put my vote in with the popular also-ran here...The Rocketeer. Perfectly captured the comic, the idealized period and the characters.
I was surprised when I watched the first Superman film again last year when I got the DVD--I was really emotionally attached to it. I'd forgotten how much over the years, but it connects to something. I'd still put Rocketeer first, though.
JUDEX. An annoyingly hard to find movie but well worth the trouble. From the same genius who did LES YEUX SANS VISAGE, possibly the best horror movie ever.
Best super-hero film of all time?
How about M. Night Shamaylan's "Unbreakable", which breaks down the very essence of a super-hero to a truly human experience?
After that, by far, the rollicking Rocketeer movie. Sorry I can't agree with you on the James Horner music. I play it often in my car as I'm barrelling down I-65.
I have to vote for Superman II also. I liked the first one but the fight scene in the second one was just fantastic.
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I just loved the scene where Zod is threatening to execute the Daily Planet staff if Superman doesn't show up and then from outside the huge hole in the wall of the skyscraper you hear "Zod!" Zod turns and sees Superman hovering in midair with his arms crossed and Supes says "Care to step outside?" God, Christopher Reeve had such prescence in that movie!
Fazhoul
The Flash TV movie. Very true to the spirit of the comics without an ounce of campiness anywhere.
I'm glad I wasn't the only who thought "The Rocketeer", "The Shadow" and "The Phantom" were good super hero movies. I really loved all three and were sorry they faded at the box office. I was also sorry "Unbreakable" didn't have a sequel which I thought I read it was originally set up as a proposed trilogy, but also faded.
I wouldn't have thought "The Rocketeer" just from the question, but now that I think about it, that movie was a lot of fun. I oughta rent that sometime.
Going by personal favorites, I have to say Spider-Man, just because it was everything I wanted from the movie. I didn't even mind the Green Ranger... um, Goblin.
Plus, that one guy who wrote the novelization did an okay job, I guess.
I hated Unbreakable, and yet it was one of the most interesting takes on the superhero I've seen.
I did love Batman, though Jack's Joker was not the Killing Joke Joker that I loved at the time.
Maybe, though, The most overlooked so far is The Crow, which really captured the look and feel of the comic with nary a trace of kitsch or sillyness.
Yeah, I vote for The Crow.
Emphatically.
Wait- you know what was a kick-ass movie? Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins. Of course, I was only 11 at the time...
Oh, yeah. Remo Williams was perfect Saturday afternoon matinee stuff.
I can't believe I forgot that one.
Bobby
Bobby Nash
Writer @ Large
Problem with The Shadow and The Phanton.
The Shadow was never really a super-hero, the same way most people thought it was. He was basically a guy who used the dark of night to be a vigilante.. hmmm... sounds familiar... except this one used his guns for the reason they were invented. The movie blew from my pov... cause I enjoyed the pulps.
But if The Shadow was a superhero, then so was doc savage, and a few others. (let's not get into the doc savage movie)...
Remo Williams is again, a vigilante, coming from the "pulp" novels of the Destroyer, in its 130s... not sure if he's a "Super"hero either...
The Phantom was great as an adventure movie. In fact after seeing the Mummy, i thought that Stephen Sommers wanted to do the Phantom right...
But, Treat Williams was too much, and while the Phantom has never done great on this side of the atlantic, I believe several people actually believed he existed in his country of Africa.
Was he a "Super" hero or just a hero in purple tights?
Superman is my choice of Super-Hero movie... but Unbreakable is definitively one of the best out there.
(I also enjoyed Shazam and Isis in the 70's, so that shows where my taste is)
Travis
I'll cast my vote for UNBREAKABLE. Not only is it a damn fine film in its own right, and the most believable superhero film yet, but you can see Shyamalan using techniques of comic book storytelling in his filmmaking. I don't know if I've ever seen another film that relied so heavily on closure.
Best adaptation? I'd say X-MEN. Sure, SPIDER-MAN was more joyous and fun, but X-MEN managed to find the heart of each and every one of its characters, while paying homage to the serious issues of prejudice and alientation underlying the X-Men since their debut.
Of course, if anyone wants to bring up THE MATRIX, I won't argue too much...
Well, I always thought that Superman: The Movie was too cheesy, even for those days. The Smallville scenes are alright, but ... nah.
I liked the Phantom... but the end was terrible. And I wonder if he really qualifies as superhero -- imo, he's a classical pulp adevtnure hero, like The Shadow or Doc Savage. The same, albeit differently, goes for the Crow or Blade (or even Matrix) -- it's not really superheroes we're talking here.
Daredevil, although often different from the book and maybe a tad bit too Matrix-ized and the main actor was just all wrong... but on the other was so full of lovely little bits and pieces and so close to various storylines from the actual comic book that it just, imo, is one of the best superhero movies so far.
If we stick to classic superheros...
Daredevil.
The Crow is a masterpeice, as is Conan The Barbarian. The Shadow, The Rocketeer, and Batman (1989) were all great. I loved the Superman movies when I was kid, but I watch them now and just cringe at how campy & dated they are ...
My vote?
Spider-Man edges the others out. Of course, as a MAJOR Spider-Man fan, I'm a little biased, but this one just really worked for me...the casting, the origin, the action, everything.
VERY close second is Superman: The Movie. I find its a great film. My only complaint is, as much as I'm a Superman fan, I find it a *tad* long.
Then I'd list Superman II, followed by X-Men. Haven't seen Daredevil.
The Batman films...ehh. Didn't work for me. The first two are REALLY dark, the last two are really light, and there's no perfect balance.
Rocketeer's good, but I haven't seen it in ages. Also, call me nostalgic, but I like the Flash Gordon film, with Max Von Sydow as Ming the Merciless...really fun as a campfest.
Surprised no one has mentioned that Dolph Lundgren classic, "The Punisher"... :)
I'm glad that some other folks mentioned "Unbreakable". I have trouble ranking any other superhero movie higher.
"Rocketeer" was wonderful fun. "Superman" was the best that had appeared to that date.
"Spider-Man" had many elements that were nearly perfect -- the wall-crawling sequences come to mind, as well as the look on MJ's face as Peter walks away in the final scene that says (at least to me) that she suddenly knows all.
In the honorable mention category, "Batman and Robin" was an execrable film, but George Clooney played the best Bruce Wayne that we've seen so far. If only he'd had a decent script...
Not just because it hasn't been mentioned yet, but also because it genuinely IS my personal favorite superhero movie...
Mystery Men. In one film, they managed to incorporate so many different superhero-related tropes, from the obvious to the subtle. New-superheroes-team-up-to-rescue-established-hero. Offspring-of-original-hero-takes-up-identity-and-powers-to-avenge-father's-murder. Villains-all-team-up-to-become-villain-supergroup.
Nearly all the archetypes are there: the popular superhuman who's his city's icon (and who hides his identity with a pair of glasses); the brilliant inventor; the quick-tempered guy; the wise mentor guy; the young, enthusiastic sidekick-type; the token female.
Of course, the genius of the film is that so many of those old cliches are turned on their ear. I mean, who was expecting what happened to Captain Amazing, HALFWAY through the film???
They even have little easter eggs for enthusiasts, such as the bit about finding a superhero just on the verge of being big, "like a Human Torch before he hit." They could have picked any super-character to name-check there, but they picked very first Marvel superhero. I loved that.
Also, I believe Mystery Men is possibly the only modern superhero film in which the concept of the superhero is already established as a given when the movie begins. The film opens with a pan over Champion City (great name!), and we already see huge statues erected in honor of Captain Amazing. What was great about that was that it's exactly how modern comic books are, with the heroes already well-established (unless you happen to be checking out something like Miller's Man Without Fear or Byrne's Man of Steel), but for a film it was entirely unconventional.
I think it was because of this and other blithe unorthodoxies scattered throughout it that the movie wasn't commercially successful, but they're also what make it such a treat for superhero fans.
It's not a film that necessarily takes the concept of the superhero deadly seriously, the way the majority of Superman I does for example... but Mystery Men is certainly one of the most complete and affectionate renderings of the superhero concept on film that I've ever seen.
A cape, a mask, a secret cave filled with wonderful equipment, an alter-ego as a wealthy fop -
The Mask of Zorro, of course!
Another interesting choice - one that more ably defines the "hero" in superhero, is
Hero At Large.
Coming straight from the comics, I'm loving all of the new stuff. X-Men, Spiderman, and Daredevil are all wonderfully amazing. X2 and Hulk look like they are going to rock the house, baby!!
For comic book-like movies, Darkman and The Matrix (which is really just a rip off of Plato's allegory of the cave) receive top nods.
But, I'll put my actual vote in for... well, 1/2 vote for Mystery Men and 1/2 vote for Unbreakable. Both movies delved remarkably well into what it means to be a comic book.
Someone mentioned the FLASH tv-movie. I saw it more as an episode. But if one accepts television episodes as part of this 'competition', then my nod goes to the "Ghost" episode of THE FLASH.
Not only was it very good (keeping in mind its tv budget limitations) as a comic book super hero instalment, but the opening bit, showing Nightshade fighting the Ghost in the 50s, done as a black & white tribute to the Republic serials of the 30s and 40s, was just superbly executed.
Wow... don't see anyone pushing for The Heroic Trio yet! It's a Hong Kong film (with all the wire work and weirdness that entails), but provides three delightfully different super-heroes, an unstoppable enemy (or, actually, two) and some action set-pieces beyond compare.
Best superhero movie? Possibly Darkman, with it's classic ending in which the, for lack of a better word, hero walks into the darkness after uttering the words, "I'm Darkman." Great stuff.
In a close, close second would be Spider-Man. Sure there were a few goofy bits, but none of the out-and-out moments of campy ridiculousness or massive plot holes (not even worried about because, hey, it's just based on a comic book) that marred many of the other movies.
(a-hem) Best super-hero film? "The Empire Strikes Back". Or "Star Wars", depending on your world-view: whether you're a "good conquors all" or a somewhat more melancholy "the hero doesn't always succeed". As my tastes tend more towards the latter, "Empire" is my choice. And I think (although I'm sure I'll quickly be proved wrong) one would be hard pressed to say either Superman or Batman or Mystery Men (cough, cough) are better films.
Now, if it came down to comic book superheros, after a great deal of thought I am throwing my weight behind Superman 2. Batman comes close, but suffers slightly from Burton's obsession with developing the brooding atmosphere of Gotham, whereas Superman focuses more compeltely on the story. And as for the sequel over the original Superman...again, it gets back to that whole world-view thing. Sometimes, no matter how noble and good you are, you just can't get everything you want; that's what being a hero is all about, making the tough decisions and sacrificing your desires for the greater good. In Superman, Supes gets everything by turning back time. In Superman 2, he has to give up his desire to have a normal life with the woman he loves in order to save the world from tyranny. That's the kind of story that speaks to me more.
Batman was great, but sometimes just a bit over the top. I do want to single out Michael Keaton, who I thought was both a great Batman and a great Bruce Wayne, and showed a distinctive dychotomy between those two personalities, much as Christopher Reeves did in the Superman movies.
For me it probably would be "Spider-Man", which to my mind captured the essence of Spidey to a tee, with "Batman", "Superman" and "X-Men" (listed alphabetically as they are too close to call) in joint second place.
I positively hate "The Rocketeer", mainly because I did not grow up on the kind of 'B' serials it emulated and as for the "non-superhero" superhero films I'd have to say: The Mark of Zorro (Tyrone Power, Basil Rathbone), not The Mask of Zorro!
I vote for Xmen and Keaton's Batman. Though Unbreakable was an excellent film too.
I would say either Batman or Spider-Man myself.
How could you leave out Robert Townsend's "Meteor Man"? LOL
At the risk of being booed off the board here, I can't believe how many people said the first Superman movie was the best. I was nine years old when it came out and I thought it was horrible. Still do. Flying around the earth to reverse time? I believed more in Santa Clause than that idea. I felt like Superman was a wuss. I thought to myself, "This doesn't seem like the Superman I know from the comics..."
I'd have to vote for Spider-man or Daredevil. My face hurt tremendously after seeing both of these films, and later I realized that it was because I had been smiling for 2 hours straight.
Unbreakable gets my nod as favorite superhero movie. But others may prefer Meteor Man. :)
So I'm reading all of the posts here and finally, about three quarters of the way down somebody mentions Mystery Men. Thank you, Jason for listing what was so good about it and saving me the hassle of having to re-type it all.
It seems like such a logical extension that in a world where superheroes are common, ordinary people would want to be superheroes as well, albeit with less than super results. The only thing missing was the mandatory Danny Elfman theme.
I have a huge bias because I'm a long time diehard Spider-Man fanboy (yes, not just a fan).
It helps that Spider-Man was a great movie, even if I had some problems with it (Kirsten Dunst mailing it in, crappy oversapped love dialogue) so I would tout it as highest.
I'm not a big fan of Burton, but Batman is great because Keaton and Nicholson overcame their director.
Daredevil was a throwback to the old days of comic book movies (in other words it was crappy). Blind men dance fighting in a park on seesaws while kids pound at the fence with no one else noticing is hardly a way to keep me interested.
I will say the worst had to be the Captain America movies. If you've seen them, I'm sure you know what I'm on about.
hmmmI've never seen any of the Lone Wolf and Cub movies..wonder how they would stack up though...
..but..my first impulse was to say Superman..probably because many of my generation had been waiting all our lives to see that one done right! Having Christopher Reeve come along to play Superman was the same feeling I had for Curt Swan drawing him...there will never be a better fit!
I have a lot to say about this topic, but I'll try to keep this brief.
For me, the successful translation of comics involves a good plot, good characters, and loyalty to the source material. With that in mind:
1. Superman, the Movie. The first, and greatest, adaption to the modern movie of a comic book superhero.
2. Spider-Man. Also very loyal to the source material.
3. Batman. Good, except I hated the Michael Keaton casting. I wish they had started with George Clooney.
Others: Daredevil was good, but not great. Ditto for X-Men. Too many others to rate.
I'm not counting sequels. Although I thought Superman II had great fights scenes and I didn't mind so much that Lois found out his identity, they started having powers that weren't in the comics (going back to loyalty to the source material).
Overall, I prefer it when the people who make the movies actually read the comics.
Well, so far only one person has mentioned 'The Crow", and I'd like to second that vote.
I'd also like to bring up the first "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" movie. Very loyal to the early Eastman and Laird material, and a lot more entertaining than I was expecting (I was expecting something closer to the cartoon).
I noticed that nobody has mentioned the Supergirl movie :).
The vote seems pretty overwhelming, and I simply must add to the landslide. Superman: The Movie is the quintessential superhero film, and after twenty-five years it's still in my personal top five.
If you count comic book movie as based on a comic book, then I put in a vote for Superman: The Movie.
If you count movies that have the spirit of comic books, most definitely Star Wars (A New Hope).
But since the question is specifically superhero movies, not comics, I still go with Superman.
I have to agree about Mystery Men. The term "best" is pretty open-ended here, so I'll dub it "best at capturing the feel of a superhero comic." Jason touched on part of the reason, but I'll expand somewhat: MM is the only superhero movie I can think of that gives the feel of taking place in a larger superhero universe. This is partially because the nature of the movie requires that the characters have to be judged against other superheroes (unlike most other superhero movies, where the main character has to be noteworthy by dint of standing alone). MM conveys the feel that the early Stan Lee comics had: the characters are part of something larger.
(It's also a near-perfect movie for role-players, BTW, which helps explain its added appeal to me and my group in general.)
That said, I don't know what I'd call the best overall superhero movie; but I'd probably pick Spider-Man as the best balanced in what one looks for in a superhero movie. (I reserve judgement on Superman II; I haven't seen it since it came out, and I remember being bored by the romantic subplot, but I haven't had a chance to evaluate it as an adult.)
Mystery Men and Spider-man are the two best superhero movies I can think of, and luckily I agree with the reasons others gave (less typing).
Well, I would agree that Superman is probably the best superhero movie -- yes, Otis and the time travel thing is bad, but the first two-thirds is magic.
However, I would like to suggest a dark-horse candidate: The Matrix. C'mon, great villains -- Agent Smith, Cipher, larger than life heroes (Morpheus, Trinity, and Neo -- heck, they even have "code names"). Most importantly, the feel of the movie seems to resonate all that I love about comics and superheroes.
The ending is amazing.
Too bad they decided to make sequels.
Buckaroo Banzai, I thought, was a really fun ride with a lot of appeal.
No nod to Mask of the Phantasm? Or to Akira?
Project A-Ko if you've never seen it has a--ahem--Davidian sensibilities to it.
Setting focus for such a colums might be the biggest problem, as fantasy and comics being our collective window to fantasy have shaped so much of cinema.
My take:
1st half of the Superman movie.
1st Batman movie.
The Rocketeer.
Spider-Man.
And: Army of Darkness.
JSM
Donnie Darko and Unbreakable are the only superhero movies that can be defined as great that aren't tacky or silly
OK - looks like no one has mentioned my favorite "Superhero" movie - DARK CITY! Wow, stunning visuals, and one of the best "super power" showdowns ever at the end. Come on - no one's with me on this?
Other than that I'll second (third?) both The Crow and MysteryMen. Great uses of the superhero genre from different angles.
I'll also agree with the detractors of the original Superman movie -- the villians were just TOO campy and inane to make a viable threat, and the "big cheat" at the end was a letdown. Christopher Reeve was perfect, though, in every way. The second movie could have been even better, but was in fact worse due to even more camp, and plot-holes you could fit all of Metropolis through.
Batman I (Tim Burton's version) also looked great, had great casting, but campiness and lazy plotting killed it in the long run.
In the interests of full disclosure, I have not seen X-Men or Blade. Still planning to, someday...
Doug wrote: "MM conveys the feel that the early Stan Lee comics had: the characters are part of something larger."
Well said. And that indeed was what I was trying to get at in pointing out the fact that concept of the superhero has been established in the world of the film before it even begins.
elf wrote: "...Mystery Men. Thank you, Jason for listing what was so good about it and saving me the hassle of having to re-type it all."
My pleasure. Thanks for the recognition!
"It seems like such a logical extension that in a world where superheroes are common, ordinary people would want to be superheroes as well, albeit with less than super results."
Yeah, I thought the premise was brilliant. It's pretty much the only aspect of the "Mysterymen" that survived the transition from its comic book incarnation over to film (that and a few character-names are pretty much all that the movie has in common with Bob Burden's singularly strange comics).
"The only thing missing was the mandatory Danny Elfman theme."
Is your handle anything to do with being a Danny fan, by any chance? :) Yeah, he's my favorite composer, and whoever did do the music for that movie was clearly Elfman-influenced.
On a related note, have you ever heard the rumor that Tim Burton directed Mystery Men under a psuedonym? Seems unlikely to me, but it's certainly an interesting notion...
Oh, jeez! How did I forget Dark City??? Patrick, at least one guy is with you on that one. Like you said, awesome visual effects, and the hero and villains in that movie totally rule.
Hey, has anyone else here read Kurt Busiek's interview in the Onion, where he said that there are five chief elements to a story that make it a "superhero story"? I believe they were:
1. A superhuman ability (or several)
2. A nickname or code-name.
3. A costume.
4. A quest.
5. A milieu. (Presumably this is the catch-all for parts of the superhero environment such as a secret headquarters, an arch-villain, and other such staples.)
Busiek's rule is that if a story has three out of five of those elements, it can be fairly called a superhero story.
I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but I just thought people here would find it interesting. I was thinking, by Busiek's criteria, one of my favorite action movies (not yet mentioned) could fairly be called a superhero film:
"Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon."
Of course, I'm sure it wasn't intended that way. I mean, come on, a director as classy as Ang Lee would never do something as lowbrow as a superhero movie...
For me, Superman The Movie, for the intro with the 1930's Action Comics book, the Superman Insignia, and the John Williams score.
Although many may diss the finale where he flies around the world to travel back in time, I loved when he soared among the clouds and heard the voices of his father(s):
Jor-El: "My son, it is forbidden to interfere in human history"
Pa Kent: "One thing I know, son, is that you are here for a reason."
Clark: "All those powers, and I couldn't even save him."
The Kryptonian scientific mind vs the human heart. That says it all for me.
Supes: "Don't worry, I've got you!"
Lois: "You've got me? Who's got you?!"
I loved the scene where Clark is outside of the Daily Planet, looks up in the sky and sees Lois dangling from the helicopter, then looks for a phone booth, but they no longer exist.
Finding a hotel turn-style entrance Clark changes to Superman, and the rest is history.
Thanks to Richard Donner and Christopher Reeve for making us believe a man can fly.
Honorable mention to the 1966 Batman movie with Adam West and Burt Ward.
It had The Penguin, The Joker, The Riddler, and Catwoman.
It had the Batmobile, The Batplane, and The Batboat.
It was among my earliest experiences with the dynamic duo, and it was fun!
Steve Chung
I agree with so many who find it to be a definitional problem. If you're thinking about the best adaptations of the form, the The Crow, The Rocketeer, and Mystery Men were probably the most faithful takes.
However, if you're simply talking best adaptation, I'm pretty partial to X-Men. It just really works for me.
Branching, though, if I had to pick the best "comic book" film, I don't think anyone has executed that as well as Robert Rodriguez did with "Desperado." From the plotline that pitted brother against brother, to the stylized action sequences, to the pacing, and everything else involved, I challenge anyone to watch it and not see that Rodriguez wasn't putting his love for comics out there in the form he knew how best to make.
Marc Mason
Not going to weigh in with why, but for my two cents it's gotta be the Matrix. Mystery Men gets an honorable mention and the Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension has to get some kind of merit award. :)
Ned Beatty as Otis was funny.
"It's amazing that brain can generate enough power to keep those legs moving."
Gene Hackman as Lex Luthor
Steve Chung
I'd have to go with "The Crow". Even the unnecessary addition of a little kid to the story (which is normally the kiss of death) didn't detract from the drama or action.
:) Speaking of the addition of annoying unnecessary kids, the image of Wendy and Marvin from the Superfriends teaming up the Crow just popped into my head. The product of a sick mind or potentially the seed of some very disturbing fan fiction? You decide.
My vote goes to DAREDEVIL.
But only till X-men 2, which I think will take its place..and then The Matrix Reloaded..and maybe (hopefully) Hulk.
Honestly: I don't think the ultimate best super-hero movie has been made yet.
What is happening now, imo, is that everytime you think you've seen the best Super-hero movie, a better one comes along.
Ask me before Daredevil I would have said Spiderman was the best before that X-men before that Matrix before that...
Well you get the idea. Its an ever-changing thing.
I'm not saying that maybe..one of these they might release a super-hero movie that beats them all out for ever & ever..but I am saying, imo, they haven't made that movie yet.
DF2506
" Looking forward to X-men 2, Matrix Reloaded, The Hulk, Matrix Revolutions. And of course on dvd, can't wait to get the Daredevil dvd!!"
Well, it's not technically a superhero adaptation, but I think the Hughes Bros. did a really remarkable job w/Alan Moore's "From Hell." Plus, Johnny Depp (as usual) was brilliant. And speaking of Jack the Ripper, let's not forget "Time After Time." While not based on a comic, the idea of protagonist and antagonist chasing one another through time sure has a superhero FEEL to it. Oh, and a special honorable mention to "Unbreakable," M. Night's best (and most unfairly trashed) movie so far...
I know everyone is going to hate me... but I am going to pick two "comic book movies."
Here it goes... my favorite comic book movie is... Ghost World. Everyone here seems hung up on Superheroes but there are other comic books besides super heroes. Super hero movies collapse in on themselves for the simple fact that they have to spend 3/4 of the movie explaining why a super hero is on the planet earth and why they fight evil. And then some hollywood executive somewhere says that america is too dumb and the end not using the original source matrial. Ghost World didn't have those problems.. no heroes, no explaining. Just a great, great character piece, something that is always missing from super hero movies. Notice how almost everyone seems to agree that second movie of a superhero franchise is better than the first? Maybe because they don't have to explain everything!
My second comic book movie is Ducktales. Again not a super hero movie, but based on a comic book. Oh sure, Huey, Duey and Louie started out in shorts, but Scrooge McDuck was a comic character long before he ever granced the screen. And you know what... they didn't have to explain a lot in that either.
Anyway that's my choices, flame on!
Let's not forget "The Phantom" with Billy Zane and Zeta Jones. It was a great adaptation.
Have you guys seen the new Hulk trailer yet? Its awesome.
http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/the_hulk/international/large.html
Spiderman came across as a fun rump that you didn't need to be a fan to get, and without all the nods that kindof took space from the movie.
Still, Mask of Zorro is great.
Superman 1 & 2 - With the usual reservations over the camp moments, ignore them and the films are timelessly perfect.
Batman - It changed everything. Keaton was good, someone mentioned Clooney earlier in the thread, he was the best but with the worst script. Nicholson, stole the show perfectly, he was so good I forgave Burton for not casting Tim Curry to do a Killing Joke version of the Joker.
Punisher - Dire film, dire script but F*** ME Dolf could act the part. Everything else aside he enhabited the part of Frank Castle more than Nicholson did the Joker. His eyes were those of a stone killer, burnt out, empty, as if his very soul had been torn out (poetic but true). His Punisher was a stinking unwashed singleminded psyco, perfection in a crap movie.
X-Men - Suddenly comicbook films were cool again, dodgy ending, great film.
Spider-Man - Dodgy effects, very faithful, awesome ending, the lack of any music to accompany the fight made it more real, more brutal. The sick slap of meat on meat etc this was a superhuman fight done right, it wasn't nice, it wasn't pretty.
Daredevil - Damn it I knew there was a reason I was trying to get a babysitter...
Batman 1966 - If you liked the series then this is perfect.
Unbreakable - Need to see it again, seemed slow and meandering to me the first time, reached the end kinda bored and tired. Determined I'll watch it a few times to 'get' the hype, mind you I hated the Dark Knight Returns the first time I read it so Unbreakable could still become one of my all time fave films.
Matrix - Not just effects, this was a perfect comicbook film, complete with the campness done right (the weapons scene for example).
Rocketeer - mmmm
Fantastic Four - Did someone really mention this????
Nick Fury - Too close a translation at one point, then it threw it away. D-I-R-E.
Empire Strikes Back - Luke is a fledgling Superhero, far more than Star Wars. We get heroics and big battles. Jedi - full blown superhero fights, good comicbook stuff.
Turtles - PAD is a fan, I will pass no comment.
Erm...that's it, no help really I suppose as I've rehashed (with the exception of my Punisher comments which were really the point of this posting). what everyone else has said.
Cheers.
Alan Donald.
PS feel free to check out my new column at SBC www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/final/, PAD (God bless him and all who sail in him) contributes regularly.
Jason wrote:
Is your handle anything to do with being a Danny fan, by any chance? :)
Nope, though I am one of Elfman's biggest fans, both scoring and from his Boingo work, in this case "elf" is merely my initials.
Add my vote to Superman: The Movie. Followed closely by Batman(1989). Others like Spider-Man and X-men were great, but will never be considered classics.
Other good choices are The Crow, Unbreakable, and The Matrix (one of my favorite all-time movies).
However, none of those made you feel like a kid again the way Superman did. Perfect casting, perfect storytelling, and maybe most important, perfect score. That music can still send chills down my back.
SPIDER-MAN. Even with what I thought were unneccesary changes (turning Mary Jane into Peter's childhood crush, changing Flash Thompson's look from preppy to thug) and not using certain characters enough (Jolly Jonah needs to be the main villian in a future sequel!), it was still the best superhero movie I've ever seen.
Excluding BLANKMAN, of course.
I vote for X-MEN. It was able to be a perfectly entertaining super hero movie yet still feel like something more substantial.
My runner-up would be Batman because it actually gave super hero movies style again. Could Superman's Metropolis be any more bland? Tim Burton built a world where Batman could exist and warped everything to it. Beautiful stuff.
Ok, I'll take my turn here. Superman was great, even now. Especially when viewed as a two-parter so I would throw both I and II as one vote. But when it comes to "super-hero" movie, it's hard to think of the adaptions because of the problems with comparing it to the source material and I saw many people talking about flaws, and changes and other such things. With that in mind I come up with a short list for both types: adapted - Supes I & II, Crow and TMNT I. Original - Unbreakable, Darkman and Robocop. Looking at my lists there I throw my vote for best "superhero movie" for Robocp. It was exciting, had a strong heroic character arc and left me with some wonderful "nice" feelings about humanity. "Good work officer. What's your name?" "Murphy." Classic. Now if they'd just release a fully restored version on DVD.
I can't say there's one best superhero movie ever. There's so many different ways to look at it. Like many people, I feel that the best serious superhero movie ever is Superman I & II (which is essentially the same movie). Best movies to capture the essence of a comic book would have to be the entire Star Wars Trilogy (yes, all of them). However, I always find much more enjoyment from movies (and for that matter, people) that don't take themselves too seriously. So on a purely entertainment level, I'd have to give a nod to Mystery Men. Also in the realm of the lighthearted superhero movie, I'd have to say The Mask is one of the better ones.
I don't particularly care for the Tim Burton Batman movies. It may just be me, but I've never really gotten any of his films. But again, I enjoy lots of whimsy.
Hmmm...I was just talking about this the other day and I couldnt quite think of any!!! Needless to say, superhero movies have been w-e-a-k!
Here are my votes:
Dark City - There is just something about this movie...
Forrest Gump - Thats right! I would say he is a superhero in his own right! He saved Lieutenant Dan people...Lieutenant Dan!!
Quantum Leap - There is no truer superhero than the one and only, Sam Beckett! To put right what once went wrong, and his sidekick Al! Possibly the most balanced out of all superhero's. I mean, he could have just had 'relations' with many people and created many offspring had he wanted to...
Batman - good movie
Total Recall
Matrix - Could have used an actual love side-story but whatever!
12 Monkeys - It was cool
and ofcourse, Dude, Where's My Car? I mean the hijinx this dynamic duo gets into!! They had to answer one of Data's questions!!
Those are my pics!
My favorites, out of what has been mentioned so far:
Superman 1, Batman 1, Spiderman 1, The Rocketeer, and the Phantom.
My favorites out of what has NOT been mentioned yet:
a.) Raiders of the Lost Ark: a great action movie ala the old serials; and
b.) Howard the Duck: yes I know the movie "laid an egg", but that is a neat trick for a male duck. Although they should have animated Howard after his arrival on earth.
So far i'm digging all the picks for best supehero film. I won't go into the details of the picks because everyone else had so far said all the things i was going to say. My picks are slightly unconventional but still pretty cool to me.
First off is I-man. I'm not sure if anybody but me remembers this movie. It was disney tv movie starring Scott Bacula as normal guy who becomes industructable thanks breathing Alien gasses and then is recruited by the goverment to save the world. Its a cool movie a great hero story
Then there Monkey Bone which is based on the graphic novel dark town its not totally a superhero movie but i thought it should at least get a mention.
lastly there is Atlantis the lost Empire. A very cool movie which the closet thing you'll get to animated comic book. Course Mike Mignola did the work on the movie so that helps. Its great action movie and the closet things to American anima american audiences.
No one's mentioned it, but I thought "The Mask" was pretty good as a superhero film even if the comic book source was somewhat less than heroic.
Also enjoyable: "X-Men", "The Crow", "Batman" (the Keaton film).
Well, I have to second all the Superman, Batman, Phantom, Spider-Man, and Daredevil votes.
I'll also pop my two cents in for Mystery Men, Men In Black, The Rocketeer, The Shadow, X-Men, and the many others.
I'd like to mention The One. I was a Jet Li movie a year or two ago. It had superpowers, a tuely epic battle, and some great directorial artistry.
For best though? Superman.
Really loved the Lone Wolf and Cub movies. I've seen about four of them, all subtitled. I think there are 6 in total that ever made it to NTSC, but don't quote me on that. I don't know if LW&C really qualifies as a 'Superhero' comic, but the movies definitley had the pulp spirit in them. Gotta love those stage blood pumps! Btw, if anyone has seen the new DVD box set ANYWHERE! please let me know because I've been trying to find it for months!
As for American Superhero movies, I am really glad that I wasn't the only one remembering the Rocketeer here. The movie tie-in book, coincidentally, was also one of the first books by Peter that I ever read. The Rocketeer was just two hours of good clean pulp fun.
My other favourites include the first Batman movie, strictly for Jack Nicholson's performance,and, if we are counting movies with the Superhero/pulp spirit, then Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, and Raiders of the Lost Ark too. Mystery Men was probably the only comic book company project in the last decade that I really enjoyed thoroughly. I mean, X-men, Spider-Man and Daredevil were ok, but they just had too many "action figure" moments for my liking.
I don't like picking "the" favorite, since so often it depends on mood at the moment, but one of my favorite "superhero" movies is Hero at Large starring John Ritter and Anne Archer.
No, really.
Everyone should go rent that one at least once.
-B
Two of the best comic-to-film adaptations of recent years aren't even superhero films: Road to Perdition and the vastly underrated From Hell.
My picks for the top superhero films:
The Rocketeer.
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.
Superman II.
Spider-Man.
Mystery Men.
Yes, it's recent, but I have to go with Spider-Man over all the others for one simple reason. Peter has asked for the best super-hero movie, and of all the movies that have been made about these guys who wear their underwear on the outside, no movie has captured the transformation of a person into a hero better than that one.
---KRAD
Best super-hero movie. Hm. "Superman the Movie" for me. When I was twelve years old, I saw it eight times in the theater, and I believed a man could fly. Christopher Reeve's incredible dual-acting job was incredible; Clark Kent was a completely different character from Superman.
"Superman II" hasn't held up as well for me, but when it was in theaters, I thought it was fantastic.
I love "Unbreakable." I think it's one of the finest super-hero films ever made.
I'd cast my vote for Superman II. Superman one was actually kinda boring, and the whole turn back time thing blew.
Honorable mentions for:
Rocketeer
The Crow
Blade
Batman
X-men
Definitely NOT one of the best:
Spider-man
Any Batman after 1
Any Crow after 1
Am I the only one who didn't like Jack Nicholson's performance in Batman? I always remember thinking he got the role and something like a total of $50 million (salary plus part of the gross) because the studio wanted a bigger name than Michael Keaton to be able to sell the movie to the public. Nicholson got billing over Keaton as well.
But I wasn't very impressed with the performance. He jumped around, he sang, he danced, he preened, but I never got the feeling of sheer crazed terror and lunacy I was hoping for. I also thought the Joker should have been slimmer, more wiry, and younger. (Though with the movie's story of Jack Napier having killed Bruce Wayne's parents, Napier would have to be at least 12 years older than Bruce Wayne, perhaps more.)
Back in 1989 I thought James Woods would have been great in the role. Or John Malkovich. And as we know now, Mark Hamill would have absolutely nailed the part.
As for best Superhero movie -- I am still out on that one. When I have more time to figure that out I may be back...One I would like to see done as a film...Soulsearchers and Company would be a great film!
Xyon
not to ape what everyone else has already stated, but if we are going on pure comic adaptation, then I vote for the first Superman film, followed closely by the first Batman feature.
However, I think the best rendition of any comic ever filmed is the fist "Darkman" film. The plot reads right out of some comics, and all the necessary elements are in place. Sam Raimi made, in my opinon, a great comic book film. I can't, and won't say as much for the sequels, however.
Superman: The Movie wins for its faithfulness and incredible casting of unknown Chris Reeve as Superman.
Sure, the Otis nonsense is bothersome, but it's so minor. The first half of the film is especially good. If any superhero movie should have won best picture, this was it.
I also think Unbreakable could have been the best ever, but the ending kind of derailed it.
Drat! Someone beat me to Hero at Large. I loved that movie.
I cry every time Superman tells the President that he'll never let him down again. Powerful stuff. I guess I'll have to go with Superman; the movie though.
Damn, I wish someone would edit a special edition of superman 1 & 2 as 1 four our movie and cut out some of the crap out of #2
This topic seems to be a pretty tough call. On the one hand, you've got The Rocketeer. A smooth and slick movie that still had a sense of wonder to it. On the other hand, you've got The Crow. It held fast to the comic and made you believe in it. I'm still debating whether or not you can classify the Crow as a superhero or just a vigilante. Gotta give the Rocketeer the nod.
\i(Superman). No bones about it. Hate to come in late and repeat what everyone else already said, but it's true. Donner treated it like a \i(movie), period. He didn't assume that the genre from which the material originated had to inform what the movie looked like, any more than if it were based on a novel or play.
And frankly, I didn't find any of the elements campy at all. Underground dwellings have been around for a long time, as have been attractive molls and doltish sidekicks, none of which felt campy to me in this particular film.
"Am I the only one who didn't like Jack Nicholson's performance in Batman? I always remember thinking he got the role and something like a total of $50 million (salary plus part of the gross) because the studio wanted a bigger name than Michael Keaton to be able to sell the movie to the public. Nicholson got billing over Keaton as well."
honeestly nicholson was the only think i really liked about the first batman movie.
I am a long time comic fan and most of the moives people have listed including the burton batman's the and superman films I hated
to me the best supoer hero film is spiderma. it is the only adaptaion that didn't make me cringe at the alterations. I also liked who they casted in the roles dispite the fact that I wouldn't have casted them (another problem I have with most films).
Hero at large gets my nod for best non adaptaion. it really conveys the meaning of being a hero.
Batman mask of the phantasm gets my nod for animated super hero film. (thought the surprise of the villain's idenity having been done first in dick tracy took a little wind out of it)
my favorite batman film is the 60's campy one.
my favorite superman is the richard pryor one since I at least laughed during that one
For me, Superman the Movie
It just "clicks" for me. From the Christopher Reeve Superman/CK performance to the wonderful John Williams score. The movie had the right touch.
Heck, I even liked Otis (Otisburg, indeed :-))
What's the best color? The best food? For Pete's sake, what was the best comic book?
The "best" comic book movie is subjective, and thankfully, we're getting to the point where that question becomes harder to answer.
My FAVORITES were Superman 1 and 2 and the Rocketeer.
( I didn't understand the comic book adaptation though. Peevy gets a gun pointed at him halfway through through the book, then we never see him again until the final pages. What happened?)
Of course, I would spell my own name wrong in my last post.
Sigh.
Superman II for sure - but Hulk will be giving it a run for it's money.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. heres my reasons
after coming back to the sewer, finding their home ransacked...roundhouse-pan around raphael as he screams "SPLIIIINTEEEEERRRRRRRR!"
I love how seriously it takes itself;
Okay theres a Ninja crimewave sweeping New York City..yes and?
And Four foot tall Turtle Ninjas live in the sewer...yes and?
and thusly a fantastic, well paced, fun, witty, dramatic, large scale film is achieved.
perfect.
-THE BARON
I'm torn between "The Rocketeer" and "Superman".
"The Rocketeer" has mobsters, Nazis, and sweet, sweet Jennifer Connelly. But "Superman", for all its faults, is a sentimental favourite. The best scenes in "Superman" are some of the best movie scenes EVER. So that's gotta be worth something.
Actual comic-book adapted movies - gonna hafta join in with the crowd here -
Rocketeer
Superman II
Batman: Mask Of The Phantasm
Spider-Man
The Crow
X-Men
Mystery Men
Comic-Book Inspired:
The Matrix
Unbreakable
Darkman
Army Of Darkness
If we're adding non-super-hero comic book movies to the list (Which it seems we are), howabout Josie & The Pussycats?
Howcome nobody has voted for Condorman? (Oh, probably because of the whole "awful" thing)
Third & Fourth Batman & Superman movies? Dunno what you're on there... they only made the 2 for each. A Batman movie with Val Kilmer and Jim Carrey, where Robin makes a "Holy" quip? Arnie as Mr Freeze? Nipples on the Batsuits? Superman vs. Richard Pryor? Mystery Ingredient in Fake Kryptonite is Tar?NUCLEARMAN? ...nah, you guys are yankin' my chain. They'd never have made films like that... the fanboys would be rabid...
I'm sure no one is reading by this point, but if I don't voice how breathtakingly awful I think the Superman movies are now, I'm pretty sure I'll regret it. So then:
AWFUL. AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL.
That's all. (And, yes, I realize that's not helpful. I'm not trying to be helpful. I'm just trying to wash off the filth of a hundred nice comments about those Superman films.)
The Fantastic Four movie just because it was never released. Saw a bootleg, though, and it wasn't half bad.
Top Five Favorite Super Hero Movies
5) The Mask
4) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
3) X-men
2) Mystery Men
1) Superman
Top Five Worst
5) Superman III
4) Superman VI
3) Puma Man
2) Supergirl
1) Batman and Robin
God, how bad do you have to be to rank LOWER than Puma Man.
Top Five WORST Super Hero movies
Mask of the Phantasm, Rocketeer, The Mask of Zorro, and The Shadow are all worthy contenders. The film that I think made the most impact with me was THE IRON GIANT. He even uses a Superman comic as inspiration to overcome his programming and to perform a truly heroic act.
Just have to add my vote for Superman as well...
Superman 1: Best comic movie ever? Best Superhero casting in Christopher Reeve and best superhero theme but I don't think of it as best movie. Most of the people who vote for it say it's the best if you "just ingore this and that" For something to be the best you shouldn't have to do that. Out of the 2 Peter picks I say Rocketeer.
As far as Batman goes, I thought it was decent at the time but then I actually read the comics. The movie was so much more style than substance. If Burton would have made Gordon and Dent half the characters they are in the comic, made the suit workable enough to move for a couple fight scenes, and made the movie a Batman film, not a Burton one it might be worthy. (And why is the movies Batman such a bad driver? He's crashed almost every vehicle he's owned?)
Not only would I say Batman mask of the Phantasm was 10x better but it's my pick for best comic movie ever.
As far as live action goes, I really thought Blade 2 was an exceptional movie. It took everything good about the first movie and multiplied it by 3. It took great elements from comics but didn't have that comic-book movie tunnelvision that alienates the rest of the audience. Based on this movie, I'm looking forward to the Hellboy movie more than X2 and Hulk. And I never even read Hellboy.
This is a little of topic but a friend of mine was telling me that he didn't like Spiderman cause of the lack of web-shooters. In my opinion (and I've said it before)this gave the movie a lot of credit. You can take a lot for granted in a comic but showing Peter as a down on his luck type everyman, yet being smart enough to create this amazing marketable technology which just happens to be spider related is asking too much for a movie audience to believe. Am I the only one who sees it that way?
Best over all SH movie: Unbreakable
Best Super group movie: Mystery Men
Best Marvel Adaption: DareDevil
Best DC adaption: Superman II
Best Dark Horse: The Mask
Honorable mentions: Rocketter
I would also like to comment that Hero At Large was pretty good as well.
Unbreakable had it all for me: confused (at first) but deeply heroic/inately *good* hero; loving physical-therapist wife who not only supports him (once she understands what's happening) but can train him as well, and child who can look up to him and maybe has the genes to be the next generation hero and/or doctor. I want a sequel exploring this :)
I was not going to add to this topic until Patrick mentioned Dark City.
Now while this is not my all time favourite I still remember the feeling I had when I watched this movie. I had not heard of it before and just happened to catch it on TV, I was blown away!
I could not believe how such a great movie was not known to me, I intend to watch this again soon to see if it will still have the same effect on me.
My fovourite Comic book movie is the Matrix and then Unbreakable.
These come close but always seem to be lacking something.
Superman 1 & 2 - Best superhero fight and at that age I was blown away, but I hated the flying around the world and also the beams from their hands, whats up with that?
Spider-Man - Second best Hero fight, the buts include some dodgy CGI, that power ranger outfit and I hate the concept of the only superhero and the only supervillian happen to be so closely related!
X-Men - Great on many counts but really bad superhero fight scenes and no berserker rage!
Batman - I hated Keaton and the costume always seemed too stiff and rubberized to me.
Bring on Shazam the movie!
If "best" means capturing the flavor of comics, the style and tone, and still have overall story quality, then the Rocketeer is the only choice. The Shadow and Phantom are right behind. All caught the flavor of the comics/pulps, all were consistant and the stories held together well.
Superman was good until he went to Metropolis, and then it became a different genre. Reeves was great as Superman, but misunderstood Kent. Luther could have been good, but wasn't. The rest was horrible. Lousy casting for the Metropolis crew (except maybe Perry).
Batman - all of them - blew. Burton can't tell a story to save his life and muddled 'dark' with 'ugly', and the others were too camp.
Spider-man was very good, but Toby blew it for me (his voice, for whatever reason, grated).
I loved Daredevil, but the story was all over the place. Tighten it up and it would take the top spot.
Well, lemmie think of as many as I can first.
Spider-Man
X-Men
Daredevil
Hulk
Darkman
Punisher
Superman
SM 2
SM 3
SM 4
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Batman-old
Batman
Batman Returns
Batman Forever
Batman and Robin
Dark Angel (full moon)
Trancers series
Dollman
Phantom
Rocketeer
Robocop
Mystery Men
The Shadow
Unbreakable
Mask of Zorro
The Crow
Buckaroo Banzai
Matrix
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Howard the Duck
Black Mask
Army of Darkness
Condorman
Meteor Man
Blankman
Hero at Large
Tankgirl
Supergirl
Of these I would say....
Hmm.
Damnit.
Maybe X.. nah
Shoot.
MOST FAITHFUL ADAPTION:Superman
BEST PICTURE:Unbreakable
BEST SFX:Matrix
MOST FUN:Mystery Men
I'd vote for THE BATMAN SUPERMAN MOVIE. This one had great action, a wonderful portrayal of the rivalry between these two, a very nice twist of the Superman-Lois relationship, and all of Batman's brilliance and dexterity that was left out of the live-action movies... great movie all around. THE ROCKETEER is a close second, capturing the old cliffhanger serial-style of movies.
Also, since there have been a few (far too few) superhero pornos, I'd vote for the fun BATBABE and the nicely done X-GIRLS in the Adult Superhero Cetegory. Yow!
How can anyone pick Superman the Movie as the best? Did you not see the whole go back in time by reversing the rotation of the earth part?
I don't think there's a superhero movie that quite holds together yet. Spider-man was fun but falls apart once the Goblin shows up. X-men has some brilliant moments but falls apart once they get to the Statue of Liberty. Daredevil was good until the openning credits started (just kidding). Batman is a fun movie but it doesn't really feel like Batman or the Joker or even Gordon for that matter.
Well, at least a few people agree Dark City kicks ass (if not the best) - thanks!
And I notice that no one has mentioned Barb Wire when talking about worst movies -- come on, it's even worse than Puma Man (and doesn't even have the cache of having an MST3K episode) and very nearly as bad as Superman IV or Batman and Robin. Come on, let's give Barb Wire the props it deserves!
I think Superman The Movie had some of the best, thrilling superhero moments in movie history (I still get goosebumps whenever I see the whole helicotper rescue scene), but it really dragged much of the time, some of the casting was completely wrong (Margot Kidder was NOT a good Lois Lane), and then there's the mess at the end....
My favorite (and in my opinion, the best) superhero movie is one that I think only one other poster has mentioned here:
The Iron Giant!
This movie (still) brings tears to my eyes. Thought it was animated (which may or may not count against it), it had some truely touching and heroic moments. A great story and a great movie.
For me the best Superhero movie has to be THE MATRIX.
My other personal favorites are THE SHADOW, THE PHANTOM and THE ROCKETEER.
If you want to take movies that are based on actual comic book characters my top five would be
BATMAN RETURNS
SUPERMAN II
X-MEN
SPIDER-MAN
BLADE
Astérix: Mission Cleopatra is number one in my book, way beyond any other one ever made.
J.C.
I really can't think of a best super-hero film, Superman came close but blew it after the 1st night in Metropolis really, Batman and Batman Returns had a wonderful style and Michael Keaton but just didn't feel right to me, same with Spider-Man and X-Men, they were ok but just didn't convince me.
I'm tempted to go with The Rocketeer since there was alot of charm and warmth in it, but live action was never specified... so Batman: Mask Of The Phantasm, shame the live action films never lived up to the animated series.
Worst Super-hero film has to be the Spider-Man live action tv show with Nicholas Hammond, some bright spark decided to give it a cinema release here in the UK, though when you're 5-ish you'd hopefully be forgiven for loving it... right? I was actually lucky enough to grow up reading the original Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Spidey comics, my mum bless her always bought the Marvel Tales reprints for me without realising it, I always prefered them to the contemporary comics that I'd occasionally get too.
So I'm a bit late, but I think the best SH movie ever was Alec Baldwin's The Shadow - but it was overlooked and despite the fact that the Shadow came first, too many critics without a sense of history trashed it as a ripoff of Batman.
But I'm also a big fan of 1920s and 30s radio dramas and pulp novels (despite the fact they were written before my parents were born), so I may just be glad the Shadow actually had a modern movie.
Started re-watching Spider-Man now to try and make up my mind. I have to say I really don't like the music, too Batman-y for my liking. And the webshooters... spidey tried to sell the formula way back in the comics but no one wanted it cause it dissolved so quickly so surely they aren't that major a plot problem for the film to include, plus Pete being a science whizz is a pretty major part of the character to leave out.
Y'know, for decades folks have commented on how they hate the spin-Earth-backward ending of Superman: The Movie, and that's fine. If you don't like the suspense-killing deus ex machina qualities of time-travel, that's fine. If you have to take the sight of Superman reversing the Earth's rotation literally (rather than some filmmaker's visual metaphor or whatever) then that's fine. When I re-watch Superman: The Movie the ending doesn't bug me too much; your mileage may vary.
But there's a moment in the movie that does bug me every time I watch it, that I find disturbing in new and different ways as I get older. Superman's first night in Metropolis. He comes across a girl whose cat is caught in a tree, retrieves the cat, gives it to the girl, and flies away. The girl runs inside and we hear her tell her mother than a man flew down from the sky and saved her cat. And we hear the mother scold her for telling stories. And we hear her slap the girl.
I don't want to get into a whole thing about child-rearing and corporal punishment here. But the fact that the filmmakers put that slap in there disturbs me every time I rewatch the film. It makes me wonder if, perhaps, that girl needs more help than just a guy in tights picking up her pet. It reinforces the idea that Superman just can't do everything for everyone all the time. For me, that slap, for one moment, breaks the film's escapism, and I find it the sequence fascinating and disturbing all at once for it.
Obviously, I've thought too much about it--but that's what happens when you watch and rewatch movies. I still think Superman: The Movie is one of the greatest superhero movies ever, but to the degree the film bugs me, it ain't the world spinning backward that bugs me, it's the fact that a little girl might just have gotten herself hit.
Seems like this thread has degraded to "best comic movie adaption" instead of "best superhero movie". But, for the best superhero, I would have to go with Robocop. Murphy was a hero before getting chopped up and rebuilt, went thru all of the self doubt and angst afterwards, and emerged a better hero.
And thankfully Frank Miller and the producers didn't go with Lewis as Robobabe in the sequel.
I would also go with Remo Williams, one of the most fun movies ever made!
-Jeff
"I think the best SH movie ever was Alec Baldwin's The Shadow - but it was overlooked and despite the fact that the Shadow came first, too many critics without a sense of history trashed it as a ripoff of Batman."
The Shadow was OK. It had a nice look and feel to it, but it's still not my favorite movie. I didn't find Penelope Ann Miller was not at all impressive as Margo Lane. Alec Baldwin's Lamont Cranston was a bit too wise-cracky for my tastes. And some of the movie's inconsistencies about the Shadow's abilities broke my suspension of disbelief. (Things like: if the Shadow becomes invisible because he hypnotically clouds people's minds so they don't see him, how can they discover him when he leaves footprints in water?)
So "The Shadow" is OK, but not great, and not the best in my opinion.
I totaly agree, Superman the Movie tops the list. It is a great combination of visuals and musical choreography, integrated in such a way that it stirs up emotions in you! It gets my heart racing everytime I hear the trumpet play the first five bars of the theme music, no other "hero theme" affects me like that.
On the B-side, I would choose the first Batman movie. I liked it because it gave me greater insight into the dark side of the B-man. Also, Michael Keaton was great in that part.
I'm gonna look at this question from a pure cinematics point of view, because I'm kind of a media junkie. :)
Here are my picks:
Batman (1989) - Tim Burton did an excellent job making you feel like you were actually in Gotham City. Everything down to the weather, the buildings, cars, lightning, and music was just right.
Unbreakable - This is probably the first super-hero movie I've seen that outlines what is often glazed over in comics - that being a super-hero is often very, very emotionally taxing.
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - A "classic" story of a heroine who started out in darkness, but came into light because of a pure heart and the dedicated aid of others.
The Fifth Element - Most people think of this simply as a mystical action movie, but it does qualify. It involves a super-type who was created specifically for the job of saving the world, but has a hard time dealing with it when the time comes.
Supergirl - I added this to the list not as a joke, but as a lesson. While the direction and writing in the movie was pretty bad, the character of Supergirl shone through strongly enough to earn this film cult status.
Princess Mononoke - Yes, it's odd to include an anime, but this movie teaches a lot about the power of persistence.
Superman - This film remains a classic, and was a breakthrough in comic-to-film adaptaions. It would get my vote as "the best" only because it has reached iconic status.
I would have included Dark City and The Matrix, but there seem to be too many of those idiot-hero-finds-inner-power-and-learns-to-run-the-world movies floating around these days.
Are there problems with "Superman"? Absolutely. It's dated. The Otis line was silly. As a female reporter, I cringe at Lois' "interview" with Superman and the maudlin poem during her flight.
I still rate it the best superhero movie ever.
Each superhero movie since, even the marvelous "Batman," has been overhyped beyond any hope of meeting expectations. In the ensuing years, those expectations have lowered to "cool special effects" and "good fight scenes." We can't possibly allow narrative flow, character development, strong dialogue, a sense of theme and purpose or other such concepts that are, ironically, strong in the comics themselves, to interfere with the cash cows of the movies.
This is why I was disappointed in the admittedly fun "Spiderman." When the Green Goblin soars away cackling, "We'll meet again, Spiderman!" I just cringed. It's not about suspension of disbelief - we always have to suspend our disbelief, or we'd never believe James Bond, still alive and the same age since World War II without succumbing to veneral disease. Reversing time by reversing the world? Well, if you believe a man can fly...
"Superman" had the benefit of Mario Puzo behind the typewriter and John Williams behind the baton. Hollywood has a tendency to dumb a story down to the lowest common denominator. "Superman" managed to avoid that. When Superman tells Lois, "I'm here to fight for truth, justice and the American way," she's the only one laughing. We believe him. No superhero before or since could pull that off.
Lots of superhero movies are fun to watch. But I can't help thinking back to the deep voice of Marlon Brando telling Superman, "They are a great people, Kal-El - they wish to be. It is for that reason above all, their capacity for good, that I have sent them you. My only son."
That's writing. That's allegory. That's compelling fiction. That's why I go to the movies.
A couple other thoughts--would Dick Tracy be considered a superhero movie? If not, then Warren Beatty has GOT to be considered a superhero strictly for his sexual prowess! And while it was T.V. and not cinema, we must not forget The Man From Atlantis. Like every good superhero, Patrick Duffy even got resurrected (of course, that technically took place on "Dallas," but let's not split hairs...)
Just wondering what you guys are basing you decisions on. Alot of people said a movie such as Spiderman or Batman would get your vote if it were not for the flaws or if it had been more faithful, but then there are alot of votes for The Rocketeer. Do you base you choice for the Rocketeer from having read it as a comic book as well or just from seeing the movie?
Just wondering...
btw, Blade gets my vote.
Here are mine favorite super-heroes films:
1) Superman, that is how to do a super-hero film right.
2) The Rocketeer, a fun movie without being too campy
3) Batman, the best live action film of the dark knight.
4) The Crow, dark and entertaining movie.
5) Blade, a well done vampire movie.
I am not a fan of the Superman or Batman movies. Even for the time, the special effects on Superman did not make me believe a man could fly. In Superman II, I was incensed by the way he treated Lois at the end and the petty going back to beat the bullies. That's not my Superman.
I did not care for Jack Nicholson's Joker and the Prince music in Batman. I actually like Batman Returns better solely because of Michelle Pfeiffer's performance as Catwoman/Selina.
I thought Tobey Maguire nailed Peter Parker perfectly so Spider-Man is my favorite superhero flick.
I saw The Rocketeer movie before I read the comic and loved it. After having read the comic, I still do. Even keeping her clothes on Jennifer Connelly is a very sexy Betty.
I also liked The Phantom a whole lot and Unbreakable was awesome!
I liked X-Men but was disappointed in Daredevil.
Sam Tomaino
I wold have to say that it is a toss up between Buckaroo Banzai and Mystery Men. Both fun, entertaining movies.
Well if this has proven anything, it is that, to paraphrase, another person's meat is another's poison.
Here is my list of favorite "superhero" movies :
1. Superman I
2. Superman II
3. The animated Superman shorts by
Dave and Max Fleischer
4. Batman : Mask of the Phantasm
5. Daredevil
6. Spiderman
7. X-men
8. Batman (1989)
9. The Shadow
10. The Mask
I was a little nervous posting, but I can see my opinion is pretty well supported.
Superman: The Movie. Maybe because it was the first superhero movie I ever say, so it's nostaligic... but even today I still consider it the best ever superhero film to date.
My other option would be DareDevil. I think they got it right. Though in some ways it was not as faithful to the comic as it could have been, it did what it had to do to become a theatrical release worthy of the spirit of the comic.
The roles were beautifully cast, and though I had doubts, Ben Affleck works wonderfully as the title character.
I'm afraid Siderman didn't quite get there for me.
A good film which I really enjoyed, but I don't know, it's missing something. Others have mentioned it above, but personally I can't put my finger on it.
My favorite..
1. Superman I (sure there were bad parts, but at least this wasn't the sequel where he had repairGreatWall-vision.. and he did travel thru time in the comics)
2. Mystery Men (I loved this and really enjoyed the Shovelers fight scene at the end)
3. Batman - Mask of the Phantasm (I remember seeing this in the theaters and wondering why the live action movies just can't get it right)
4. Blade (didn't care for the sequel)
5. X-Men (incredible cannot wait until X2)
Spiderman was good for being an origin movie. But it didn't excite me enough.
Buckeroo Banzai gets at least a nod. I enjoyed it and would have watched a sequel.
The Shadow and the Phantom were both good movies.
Just a nitpick: Superman didn't reverse the spin of the Earth (that wouldn't make things happen backward, the earth is not a film strip). It is Superman's point of view (as a kid I had it worked out that if you cross over the international dateline so many times you'd go back in time. I was pretty excited when they came out with the Concorde...).
They had the option of doing the old fly-through-concentric-circles-in-rainbow-hues but that would have totally bewildered the audience who never read the Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes books.
Sadly, this was apparently confusing, too. Point taken about the deus ex machina aspect, but that's really over thinking it. Yes it created problems for future movies, but they didn't know there would be future movies.
Superman 1, hands down.
It wasn't simply a great superhero flick, it was great moviemaking.
Spiderman follows a close second.
Okay, first off, lemme tell you all that I certainly enjoyed Superman 1 and 2.
And then, I also enjoyed the Mask with Jim Carrey. Those, to say the least, are my favorite ones by far.
And then, even the Spider-Man movie was maginificient. Not 100% perfect, but it was still quite excellent, and I liked both Maguire and Dunst's roles very much.
Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree almost completely on the X-Men movie. Here's why:
-It trivialized the Holocaust by writing Magneto as using his magnetic superpowers within the concentration camp. If this were real life, he would surely have been able to smash the nazi dicatatorship in almost all of Europe within a short amount of time. Bad calculations in scriptwriting, to say the least. I assume that they did that as a way of sidestepping the comic book's background involving Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver? Trust me, they could've written it far less awkwardly than it was there.
-There didn't seem to be much of a menace in public to any of the mutants in the movie, and any that did take place, if at all, was quickly forgotten.
-The part with Wolverine and Rogue did touch me at first, but then it lost steam and credibility, mainly because that too was otherwise quickly forgotten.
-The way that Magneto was depicted here in fact, as being even more deadly or willing to use deadly force than his comic book counterpart was also actually rather disturbing, and I ended up wondering if they went at least partially overboard in writing him.
-The sequel setup was insulting. To put it this way, it's not the sequel I consider the most important thing to deal with, it's making the film and its messages convincing first. And this film in my opinion didn't do that.
I don't want to argue with anyone who liked the movie, but upon seeing that it committed some very awkward mistakes akin to what J. Michael Straczynski and John Romita Jr. committed when putting together Amazing Spider-Man #36 a year and a half ago, even running the risk of insulting the victims of these crimes against humanity, I was really devastated. I'm not bothered by the leather costumes, nor am I bothered that Janssen's age makes her a questionable casting choice, I'm just bothered that this movie, contrary to what some people said back in 2000, was not written as well as it could've been and that the writing was slapdash at best.
When David Ansen reviewed the movie for Newsweek back then, he said that by all rights it should've ben a disaster. It is. Maybe such critics felt that it would be in bad form to pan it for the fact that it really is a dud in spite of everything, and that it'd be going against the establishment, but the truth is that this is a very badly thought out movie that ends up disappointing for real reasons and not for the fact that the characters wear leather costumes. Whatever anyone's opinions, anyone reading this may want to consider the points I've given here.
I vote for Unbreakable. I thought it did an incredible job of showing how a regular Joe would handle a "power" like invincibility. I love the twist ending too.
See, I get wrapped around the axle on the whole "does-it-have-to-be-from-an-ACTUAL-comic" thing. I thought The Adventures of Baron Munchausen was a GREAT comic book movie, for example -- like an 18th century Avengers. And where do you classify a movie like The Shadow?
But if we're talking ACTUAL comics, then I go with:
Spider-Man
Ghost World
Heavy Metal
1. donnie darko (did anyone else see this movie!a reluctant superhero with serious emotional problems yet is still able to save the world by sacrificing his life!)
2.Unbreakable
3.Dark City (the dude could move stuff with his mind)
4.Matrix (Neo was a superhero)
5.Darkman (a bit melodramatic but very good)
Xmen was good, but not enough story, and it was more Wolverine than xmen and I'm biased because I like cyclops and they made him dick. They even call him that in the movie. One of joss whedon's only lines that survived both other writers and bad acting.
Quote from Avi: It trivialized the Holocaust by writing Magneto as using his magnetic superpowers within the concentration camp. If this were real life, he would surely have been able to smash the nazi dicatatorship in almost all of Europe within a short amount of time. Bad calculations in scriptwriting, to say the least. I assume that they did that as a way of sidestepping the comic book's background involving Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver? Trust me, they could've written it far less awkwardly than it was there.
That is an idiotic criticism - that only works if kid magneto knew what his powers were doing - I got the sense that kid magneto did it by reflex and had no idea what was going on.
Superman wasn't my generation. I've seen it, I loved it, but it still doesn't say "best" to me.
For me it will always be X-MEN. It was a damn good movie and for my money, the best transfer from comics to film.
BATMAN was also something I'd give the nod to, I just hated the fat Commissioner Gordon.
And Spider-man was horrible.
Not sure about the best EVER superhero film, but I have to say - after seeing a press preview of X2 - that Bryan Singer absolutely nails the heart of God Loves, Man Kills in a way that I didn't expect even the man behind The Usual Suspects to do. He's made a commercial action movie with a deep and emotional storyline.
Very impressed (and I see about 100 movies a year!)
John
Have to disagree with the critique of X-Men. It could have been better, but the points made against it were in many way strengths. I got that Magneto's early display of powers was hooked to the emotional wrenching of seeing his parent's dragged away. Imagine having the power, but not knowing how to access it. His unwillingness to see it happen again makes sense now that he does have control. Of course he would be lethal to those he sees as nazis.
Superman is the film that failed miserably (mostly due to budget, I assume). Had they carried on the thoughtful (but albeit slow) Smallville tone into the rest of it, you'd have a good film, but as it was it was embarrassing. From thoughtful to silly is not good filmmaking.
Avi Green writes: "It trivialized the Holocaust by writing Magneto as using his magnetic superpowers within the concentration camp. If this were real life, he would surely have been able to smash the nazi dicatatorship in almost all of Europe within a short amount of time. Bad calculations in scriptwriting, to say the least. I assume that they did that as a way of sidestepping the comic book's background involving Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver? Trust me, they could've written it far less awkwardly than it was there."
I wouldn't guess that the X-Men scriptwriter(s) wrote that scene specifically to circumvent the Magneto's comic-book origins with the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. Rather, I'd guess that the scene was written as it was in order to efficiently convey some history and characterization to Magneto's character. The filmmakers want viewers to understand that at least some of Magneto's motivations arise from his experiences in a concentration camp, so they depict the concentration camp. So that viewers can identify this character later (and understand why we're focusing on him in that scene) they show him using some magnetic powers. The filmmakers are reasonably vague as to how powerful Magneto is at that point (bending a metal gate a little is a bit more than Uri Geller can do, but it might not be enough to escape scott free and destroy the Axis) or indeed, how aware of his powers he is at that point.
Of course, if one doesn't like the scene, then one doesn't like the scene. And if one thinks unrealistic depictions of Holocaust settings in fiction trivialize the historical reality of the Holocaust, that's understandable too.
But I can also understand why that scene is there and why it's structured like it is.
By RabidWolfe:
That is an idiotic criticism - that only works if kid magneto knew what his powers were doing - I got the sense that kid magneto did it by reflex and had no idea what was going on.
I'm sorry, but while it did seem that way, it still - or can - come across as being in very questionable taste, since he could've figured out more about his powers soon afterwards, and like I said...
In fact, supposing he were chased across the country by nazi troops and then had to take steps to stop them? Many of the victims and refugees who were persecuted at the time could not have defended themselves from the enemy forces who were pursuing them the way that he could. There were some cases in which some refugees were able to ambush a nazi troop and take their weapons, but in Magneto's case, he could disarm them while concealing himself from view and defeat them much more easliy and quickly than any refugee could in real life.
SO you see, that the movie version of Magneto was not only shown using his powers within the concentration camp, but never even tried to go on the warpath and destroy the nazi tyranny after losing his parents there is one of the film's biggest mistakes in blending fact with fiction. And to say the least, there are some cases in which the two lines cannot intersect.
Whatever, it should be noted again that the movie dealt so little with the Holocaust later on that, as even Rolling Stone said, people could rightfully argue that the movie trivializes the subject as a result.
There were a few good lines such as where Mystique told Sen. Kelly that people like him made her scared to go to school when she was young, but other than that, as even The Nation said, it's almost like a hollow void.
I want you to know that I'm not happy about having to say all this. I'm not even remotely happy. But I feel that the movie was very badly miscalculated, and I'm sad to say that I've decided to skip the sequel this summer.
Claremont had Magneto using his powers in the concentration camp as well. They prevented him from being killed when he and his family were shot in front of an open grave. It was either X-Men 199 or one of the Classic X-Men back up stories with John Bolton that goes into it.
As for movies, THE SPECIALS, starring Rob Lowe and Thomas Hayden Church is a must see.
Avi, you're very young aren't you....? >sigh<
Pardon me while I leap to conclusions here but with the name Avi Green, I'm going to assume you take the Holocause very personally and that's certainly understandable but bear in mind this was a movie and only a movie. Magneto couldn't have stopped the Nazis and if he had, that would have trivialized the subject matter.
If we just look at the film from a story point of view, there's no reason to believe Magneto even knew what he was doing since it was raining and he was hysterical, even less reason to think he was causing this effect and absolutely no reason to jump into a costume and start fighting the Axis Menace. That's why I guess you're young. Take a look at "Unbreakable", a movie a lot of others here loved (I despised just about every dull, ponderous minute of it, BTW) because it made one point very well. If you lived in the real world, even if you absolutely knew you had super powers it would be quite a leap to becoming the Incredible Weasel-Man.
From a more thematic point of view, Singer is making the point by jumping to it in the next scene that the effort to get mutants to register is the first step down the slippery slope to what happened in Germany in the 30's.
But there's a moment in the movie that does bug me every time I watch it, that I find disturbing in new and different ways as I get older. Superman's first night in Metropolis. He comes across a girl whose cat is caught in a tree, retrieves the cat, gives it to the girl, and flies away. The girl runs inside and we hear her tell her mother than a man flew down from the sky and saved her cat. And we hear the mother scold her for telling stories. And we hear her slap the girl.
Wow! I can't believe I read this, because that scene has always bothered me, and I've never encountered anyone else who had a problem with it. Frankly, more than even the slap itself, I always had a big problem with the amount of anger in the mother's voice during the reading of the line right before it: "Haven't I told you to stop telling lies?" It always seemed like it was just...too...much. I know what you mean by worrying that you may be reading too much into it, but it always did bother me as well--I always wanted a scene later in the movie where the news Superman's existence is known more widely, and the little girl gets an apology from her embarrassed mother...
And for the record, I think Superman is the best superhero movie ever made.
Best super-hero film: Barb Wire. But only for the first five minutes...
Second best: Steel. You will believe a man can... swing a hammer... and ride a motorcycle...
Third: Well, how come no one's voted for "The Avengers" (Fienes and Thuman as the Vision and the Scarlet Witch - classic!), "The Thing" (Remember the line "It's *&%$-ing clobberin' time"?) or "The Peacemaker." (He loves peace so much he'll kill for it - and he'll always a place in the current administration because of it.") Does no one remember "The Karate Kid"? He was just a poor kid from the 30th Century until he met the owner of Al's Diner!
On a less sarcastic note, I may actually cast my vote with the original Hulk made for TV movie. They definitely made more with less. The Hulk doesn't have to be tossing tanks like they were shot puts to be scary. There was plenty of reason to be terrified by the Hulk they showed and they also did a great job of showing how it was just as scary for Dr. Banner. (Younger people may not remember this but Bill Bixby had a long career as a "nice guy" in shows like "My Favorite Martian." He was Eddie's father for Pete's sake! So seeing him transform into this huge overmuscled raging green monster was quite a shock.) The ending with that piano bit and Dr. Banner taking one of his first anonymous trips to somewhere, anywhere, else, really defined the character as a tragic hero.
"The Crow" had a similar zeitgeist. I think it would have been a great moody film anyway but there was no avoiding the fact that Brandon Lee had died making the film. Seeing him struggle free from the grave gave me chills that were unmistakably real even though we all wish the circumstances hadn't been what they were to cause them. It made this story of someone reaching out from beyond the grave for one more mission more poignant than it ever should have been.
My last point: I think PAD knows how fruitless this question is. I think he knows that it's like the clasic "Who's stronger, the Hulk or Thor?" it's a question that will just make fans argue passionately in circles. I can't help thinking this is some kind of social experiment.
And now that I've fired my homemade cannon-shot of primitive diamonds at the early version of the Sleestak, I just want to look up at him and say, "Is this... what you wanted... to make us... fight each other... like animals... for your... amusement!"
I feel like an idiot for not thinking of Unbreakable. That was a damn fine superhero movie.
My favorite moment in Mask of The Phantasm was when Bruce dons the cowl for the first time, turns, and we see the fear in Alfred's face as he sees The Batman for the first time. This to me made the whole movie worthwhile.
Re: Spider-Man: Macguire's voice was a bit grating. It's a petty criticism, but whenever I re-read the comics, I always hear the voice of the actor from the '60s cartoon, who really summed up the witty, soul-searching Spidey, who sounded like he was having the time of his life swinging through the city in a hot costume, and fighting fantastic foes.
Steve Chung
Coming back in and reading over the "Avi Green Debate" concerning X1 and Mags use of powers, etc, I just had to say something. Even if no one is even still reading all this. Anyway, I saw it simply as young Eric using his powers out of fear and high anxiety. This didn't mean they werefully manifested or even developed. I believe it's stated the powers come out at during heaightened stress (could be wrong and don't have time to sit and watch the movie just for that right now). He did what he did, got konked on the noggin and that is all we know. He was not in the concentration camp long enough to do much else given the time frame. Was not trivializing the holocaust in any way. After all, X-Men is not a holocaust movie! It is the story of mutants. But to justify Magneto (in his mind) and explain his strong feelings, they rightly kept it in. After all, had they not wanted to keep that aspect, they could have hired a much younger actor. In the comics, Mags was a young adult during most of that oginially but the comics started in the 60's so that was possible. The movie had to explain a time difference of at least 6 decades. And I saw some of those "reviews" that commented on it and thought they were equally stupid for even thinking it. That's like saying Armageddon trivialized safe sex by not showing Ben put on a condom before sex. When it's not the point of the story... it is NOT the point of the story. And mutants are shown as being victims but more of it is described and spoken than shown because they had an hour and 40 to tell the MAIN story! As for Jean's age... I had issues with it but only because I saw it as unnecessary. I just figured the producers worried non fans would not get into the idea of an old guy hitting on a young girl... and it sets up their first meeting. I mean, the comics have Xavier having a thing for Jean! I liked X1 and am REALLY looking forward to X2. It's not my choice for best superhero movie (I still prefer Robocop) but it deserves to be on anyone's list.
That is all I have to say on the matter. For now.
I gotta give it to Spider-Man. Why? Because Spider-Man doesn't have a wince moment. All other superhero movies have a wince moment, a joke that just doesn't fit, a telling detail that ages poorly, or just a lame performance. X-Men's "You know what happens when lightning hits a toad?" is a good example. Superman's encounter with a pimp in his first movie is another. And, of course, there's damn near all of Batman and Robin.
I admit, the Macy Gray bit in Spider-Man comes close. Reeeeeeal close. But a second after seeing it, you've forgotten it.
I'm going to have to vote Unbreakable. It was such a realistic, human approach to super heroes. In that, I can't imagine a super hero movie touching me more.
Unless I finally get the Authority movie I want. And that's a maybe.
Best movie based upon a superhero comic book would have to be Superman I & II and Spider-man. These both made me feel for the characters and made me smile when they came to save the day (all movies have flaws, so that's a given).
Best super-hero movie not based upon a comic book: The Matrix, Black Mask (with Jet Li -- bad dubbing lent to the campiness but it's so outrageous and violently fun with nods to the comic books that inspired it that it's a joy to watch), and the original Sam Hamm scripted pilot TV move The Mantis; the tv show was crap, since Fox changed the great urban cast, but the original movie was the best tv had to offer at the time. Darkman.
and lastly -- AKIRA.
Jeff
What about the animated Batman? It seems someone needs to mention Mask of the Phantasm and Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.
Best Superhero Movie Ever:
"Peter David Kicks The Easter Bunny's Ass"
#1: The Matrix- Since it was pitched to Warners via a comic the Brothers had published (specifically to get the film made), it should count.
#2: Superman II- In my opinion, better than the first Superman movie, and, when I see Zod and Supes duke it out, my heart races just a little faster, even today.
#3: The Rocketeer- OK, so, in the comic, the Rocketeer was a pompus jackass, and Disney made him a hero kids could look up to. Don't care; kick-ass flick, awesome action, and the movie that got me into chewing gum.
#4: The Mask of Zorro- Felt like reading a Don McGregor Zorro comic, and a hell of a lot of fun to watch. Also inspired the name of my dog (Tornado).
#5: Spider-Man- With the exception of the Goblin's ugly costume, one of the truest adapatations to date.
#6: X-Men- Got the characters right, and kinda stayed true to the old costumes (take a look- they may all be in black leather, but the designs and highlight colors on each of the suits looks like the comic versions!), and a good story.
#7: The Shadow- Having read the old Shadow pulps, I don't know where people got the idea that he had no powers; the ability to cloud men's minds has always been there.
#8: The Flash II: Revenge of the Trickster- 2 of the TV Episodes put to tape, one after the other, both featuring Mark Hammil as The Trickster. I've had to buy 6 copies, as I keep wearing them down (if only they'd be released on DVD!)
#9: Batman: Mask of the Phantasm- The only time I felt they did the Caped Crusader any justice. I know this won't be popular, but I felt the first 2 Tim Burton movies were too 'Frank Miller'... whose times with Batman have always felt like a waste to me.
Finally, rounding out my Top 10...
#10: The Mummy- Yeah, I know, it wasn't a comic book movie, but take away the Brandon Frasier humor element, make him more stern, and you've got a Doc Savage adventure (Frasier even looked the part of the 1920's Doc!)
Also, the movie I would personally pay cash money to never see on a list of good comic movies- Daredevil. Too much story, too little time, too many friggen' insider comic referances (every time I had to look at Father Everett or saw Matt save Stan Lee or hear Joe Quesada's name, I wanted to puke. It pulled me out of that world and threw me, violently, back into the real one. Please, people, enough with the Fanboy referances. They suck.), a lame lead actor, Michael Clark Duncan's phoned-in performance as Kingpin... ugh. The only things that made that movie worth the $10 admission was the X2 Preview, the Hulk Preview, and Bullseye. What schlock.
Them's be my 2 cents.
-eD!
The Crow,
Superman 1 & 2,
Half of Batman Returns (Not the Devito half),
The Rocketeer,
X-Men,
And I have to add one no one has mentioned. Judge Dredd. While they missed some I thought they got in the spirit very well.
I thought Supeman I & II were the best superhero team ever. But I agree that Margot Kidder was the worst casting choice for Lois Lane.
The best superhero team movie has to be the X-Men.
And I'm glad someone finally mentioned Judge Dread. I thought they got the 2000 AD world of the future just right.
SPB
Come on- Judge Dread was nothing like the comics. First of all- the helmet came off. that right there ruined it for me- but besides that- I wouldn't call it a super-hero movie- just an action movie.
One I would rate high on my list- probley #2 behind the first superman movie for all time best super-hero movie. Was Meteor Man with Robert Townshed. It was a good movie with Townshed playing a hero really well. Lots of great supporting actors in it too.
"If we're adding non-super-hero comic book movies to the list (Which it seems we are), howabout Josie & The Pussycats?"
it stunk and wasn't faithful according the this josie and the pusycats fan.
"Spider-Man - Second best Hero fight, the buts include some dodgy CGI, that power ranger outfit and I hate the concept of the only superhero and the only supervillian happen to be so closely related!"
power ranger costume? closely related? what spiderman film did you see? spidey and green goblin aren't related.
"And thankfully Frank Miller and the producers didn't go with Lewis as Robobabe in the sequel."
actress couldn't pull it off and i don't think it would have really fit into the movie world In my opinion
"It trivialized the Holocaust by writing Magneto as using his magnetic superpowers within the concentration camp. If this were real life, he would surely have been able to smash the nazi dicatatorship in almost all of Europe within a short amount of time. Bad calculations in scriptwriting, to say the least. I assume that they did that as a way of sidestepping the comic book's background involving Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver? Trust me, they could've written it far less awkwardly than it was there."
marvel comics put mags in the holcaust before the movie and they did it before offically revealing he was the father. (it was hinted at before then but not outright stated). I believe they even retcon him into a child during the Holocaust before the movie.
"I liked X1 and am REALLY looking forward to X2. It's not my choice for best superhero movie (I still prefer Robocop) but it deserves to be on anyone's list."
no it doesn't. it only gets on people's list if it earns the slot and to me at least it failed miserably
"What about the animated Batman? It seems someone needs to mention Mask of the Phantasm and Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker."
mask of the phantasm has been mentioned previously by myself and others. return of the joker really wasn't that great a movie.
regarding some other movies the hulk tv movie was good but I think it suffers form being outside the marve u too much
Iron giant was a great movie just not sure how cimic booky it is
TMNT might be good choice but I just don't have the frame of reference to really judge it.
Woody Allen's ZELIG.
It's about a Leonard Zelig, nicknamed The Human Chameleon. Like the X-Men's Rogue, Zelig physically takes on the characteristics of other people. When he's around Chinese people, for instance, he turns Chinese and can even speak the language. And like the Hulk, Leonard's changes are triggered by his emotions--in his case, a desperate need for acceptance.
He even performs acts of great heroism. He rescues his girlfriend and her sister from Nazis by taking on the sister's skill at aviation and piloting a plane from Germany to the United States--upside down, yet. Even Captain America hasn't done that one.
David Seidman
I think I'm the only comic fan who dislikes the Superman movies. They were full of cheesy cliches, and bad dialogue.
I think X-Men and Rocketeer were excellent superhero movies. Cool powers, witty jokes, good characters.
"power ranger costume? closely related? what spiderman film did you see? spidey and green goblin aren't related. "
The Green Goblin just happened to be the Dad of his best mate who he was rooming with!?
By related I did not mean by blood but by association.
If that mask did not look like something out of a Power Ranger movie then you have obviously never seen a Power Ranger movie.
SUPERMAN is not only my favorite superhero movie, but my favorite movie...period! I've seen it so many times since 1978 that I can recite every line of dialogue from memory. Unfortunately this can become annoying and/or perplexing to those who aren't quite as witty and sophisticated as myself. ;-)
Believe it or not -- I actually saw THE PHANTOM eight times in the theater! I don't know anyone else (except my dear mum) who liked the movie as much. I can't explain it, for some reason I just dug it.
Mike
If anyone's still reading, my fave comic book movie adaptions are ...
1) Batman
2) Blade
3) Bulletproof Monk
4) Spider-man
5) Judge Dredd
My favourite comic book "inspired" movies would include Unbreakable and The Matrix. Obviously.
And for completeness, I really do not like ...
Superman 3 or 4, Batman Forever or Batman & Robin, Daredevil (too dark, and frankly pretty boring), or X-Men.
For my money, the two best are Superman (that seems to be the majority of eveyone elses, as well) and The Crow. For the former, Reeve perfectly personified both Clark Kent and his alter ego, and for the latter, it captured the feel and grit of the comic perfectly.
Superman: The Movie is, to me, still the best.
Runners up:
Batman
Spider-Man
The tv pilot Hulk movie, well done for it's time as a tv movie
If my gut is right, X2
Superman II
The Rocketeer
The Crow
Conan the Barbarian
The more I think about Daredevil the less I like it. And I wasn't thrilled in the theater.
The Green Goblin just happened to be the Dad of his best mate who he was rooming with!?
That's not a decision of the filmmakers. (Making them roommates was, but the Goblin's identity was firmly established in the comics.) Furthermore, it gave a thematic resonance to the film (Peter loses his father figure, then has to fight his friend's father) that would be missing if the Goblin had been just some guy.
Okay now, first off, I'm want to make one thing clear: I'm 28 years old, which is hardly at all young. But whatever my age, I'm going to have to point out that I am very truly disappointed in the poster named Pack for making such an insulting implication when I on the other hand did not attempt anything of that sort in your direction, and I'm going to have to ask for an apology. In fact, by insulting someone that way simply because you don't like what he thinks you could be undermining your own side of the argument.
Now I want to bring up a similar situation: Supposing this were set during the Rape of Nanking in 1937? How do you think any Chinese citizen who'd been through the horrors of that notorious period would feel if they saw this, when they themsleves were largely helpless by contrast with no authentic superpowers to help them stop their Japanese enemies? And then, how do you think any Jewish citizen who'd been through the horrors of the Holocaust would feel when they too were largely helpless with no superpowers to help them either?
What's more, let's be clear: of course anyone would act on reflex(or instinct) of fear, if they had such powers as he's got in such a situation. But that's not what was bothering me here, what is bothering me here is that the scene is using science-fiction powers, and considering just how much force could be meted out with them, even if he only uses it on a small scale, it's still trivializing the matter because upon figuring out more about them, he could've gone on the warpath later and disarmed and smashed more than plenty of nazi soldiers and tanks.
In reply to Mr. Watson, your argument is fair, and I won't say that your points aren't worthwhile, but while it may not be a holocaust movie, it's NOT simply a movie about mutants either. It's a movie whose purpose is to make a statement about racial tolerance even for today's world, and sadly, it was too superficially written.
As for what you've said about the movie having on 100 minutes of length, well I'm going to have to point out that that's like justifying the movie's superficiality, when it could've been meatier. I would also like to note that I once read a few years ago, that the movie apparently was tampered with by the studio, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were. OK, so maybe the filmmakers aren't altogether to blame, but even so, it just goes to show how Hollywood is and can be a very two-faced industry.
I want you to know that even I find Rolling Stone and The Nation both equally terrible and worthless magazines, and I certainly won't buy them nowadays, but these reviews in example were rare gems from those two bummers.
One more thing, I want you to know that I was taught to speak my mind and not be afraid to tell what you really think. Even the late Pauline Kael of the New Yorker was that sort of a person, who was outspoken and had the guts to tell what she thought of this or that movie, and I'm from that school of thought too.
I would have to vote for Superman.I ask you this: Is there ANY film that can top the opening sequence through the opening credits? Now, I was only seven when I saw that for the first time, but it was in a theater, and no opening sequence in any film I've seen since has come close. Yes, the rest of the film does have some flaws, but overall it has this epic feel that I just don't get from the other superhero films. So it gets my vote over both the first Batman and Spider-Man.
One more point: I'm from a crowd that doesn't like political correctness, described in Orwell's 1984 as Newspeak. And somehow, this movie seems to be a victim of it too.
Now since I haven't read the UXM issue mentioned(199?), I can't really offer any judgement just now, but I want to say that if Magneto's powers were used then, I assume that it was without realizing it then. If, on the other hand, they had him tearing up the place this way or that, on a big or a small scale, then they would sadly have committed a serious error in combining reality with fantasy. And as for the movie, the point I'm trying to make here, is that if he figured out later on that he was superpowered, why didn't he tear up Europe using his powers as a weapon? It was still 1944 in the movie, before the war was over, he could've done that.
But in any event, what appalls me is that the movie only seemed to present its parts in a superficial manner, taking away a lot of the impact it could've had. It's been at least 2 years since I saw it, and I'll have to note that I can't recall if Magneto was struck on the head, I think it zipped(sigh)to the scene with Sen. Kelly afterwards. And if there's anything else that appalls me, it's that the movie seemed to be more interested in Wolverine than in any of the other characters. I didn't like how it made Storm look like a wimp when dealing with say, the Toad, and if you ask me, it could've been longer, if that's what was needed to get its points across.
When it comes to Superman, the scene that I realy enjoyed there was where Supes took Lois Lane on a flight in the sky, a very memorable and wonderful scene. That was probably the best scene in the movie.
Return of the Joker not a great movie? I'm stunned. The animation was amazing and Hamill gave his best performance yet as the Joker. I thought it was the perfect "end" for Batman Beyond as Terry truly came into his own.
Avi, I'm sorry, but the flying-with-Lois scene in Superman was one of the worst parts of the film. It may have been better without Lois' horrible voice-over/poem, but still was very bad.
If a separate matter, most posters here seem to have gotten off the topic Peter originally broached: What is the best SUPERHERO movie ever made? He did not ask what was the best comic book movie, or best comic book adaptation, or similar side-track.
"That's not a decision of the filmmakers. (Making them roommates was, but the Goblin's identity was firmly established in the comics.) Furthermore, it gave a thematic resonance to the film (Peter loses his father figure, then has to fight his friend's father) that would be missing if the Goblin had been just some guy."
I am aware of the fact that the comics also have Peter and Norman closely associated but the main difference is that in comics Spidey has been well established with a lot of other villians and the existance of superheroes is well established but in this movie to any non comic person it seems that the only 2 superpowered beings in the whole world are so closely associated. It is just one of the things that kind of jarred to me.
"Avi, I'm sorry, but the flying-with-Lois scene in Superman was one of the worst parts of the film. It may have been better without Lois' horrible voice-over/poem, but still was very bad."
I agree I always groan at this part.
Batman. All other opinions are worthless and must cease.
Thank you.
Batman (1989)doesn't hold up all that well -- if it ever did originally. Batman Returns is a little better but more as a Tim Burton movie rather than a Batman film.
Everyone has hit at least a few that I would recommend for this category, so I'll just repeat some here to add to the vote.
Batman - yes, it did start a trend of gloss over substance, but at least it got us away from the "it's a COMIC book, so it has to be campy FUN" mentality that prevailed to that point in Hollywood. The whole series ended up becoming that in the end, but it was a good start. Also, I agree with an earlier post that Clooney was the perfect Bruce Wayne/Batman . . . just stuck in a horrible movie with a terrible script.
X-Men - proved (with Blade) that the genre can be done seriously with established superhero characters.
Howard the Duck - I'm going to be lynched for this one, but the movie adaptation actually came fairly close to Gerber's writing in many scenes. People foam at the mouth about it for some reason, but I thought it worked.
Although not exactly "superheroes" in the sense of being modern comic book heroes, I also agree with others that The Shadow and The Phantom were two excellent adaptations of the respective characters. In fact, I would go one better and say that they helped evolve the process from Batman to films like X-Men and Spider-Man. It just goes to show that you can take a fantasy character and not have to treat them like a five-year old's nightmare or cartoon.
Spider-Man - of course. Great understanding of the characters in this one and could not really be any better than what we got.
As to comic-book-like, I've always felt that both Aliens and The Abyss had a comic-book feel to them. I always felt that way about Babylon 5 as well, come to think of it. Unbreakable was perfect until the last three seconds with the text over the freeze-frame. That killed the whole movie for me.
There's no doubt more, but these are the ones that come to mind readily.
"The Crow" had a similar zeitgeist. I think it would have been a great moody film anyway but there was no avoiding the fact that Brandon Lee had died making the film. Seeing him struggle free from the grave gave me chills that were unmistakably real even though we all wish the circumstances hadn't been what they were to cause them. It made this story of someone reaching out from beyond the grave for one more mission more poignant than it ever should have been."
And I agree with this...
Before Brandon died, the concept was to make a horror/super-hero movie... with the concept of Brandon coming back again and again.
When Brandon died, they made it more into a gothic fairy tale... and it worked... people saw it because people were interested in seeing the last work an actor... especially the son of a legend.
If he hadn't died, it may not have been crap, but it would have been a totally different movie.
Travis
About the X-Men film and it's holocaust connection...
I think Brian Singer did his homework there. I've personally talked to a few holocaust survivors - many wonder why they didn't do more to resist...but they didn't.
There seems to be a greater psychological thread at work here - I think it's related to learned helplessness - where the Jews in the camps were so beaten down emotionally by constant harassment, they were reluctant to raise a finger, or a voice, lest the full force of the Nazi regime be brought down upon them. The overwhelming thought was, "If I keep quiet, maybe I'll be spared."
Note that in the scene where kid Magneto bends the gates, the others, who could have come to his aid and overwhelmed the guards, simply stood back and watched. That is the kind of paralyzing fear which gripped the people residing in those camps, such that even one Nazi soldier seemed too much to handle.
Unbreakable- though not about a comic character clearly inspired by comics. Some of the scenes even seem to be framed like comic panels.
The Matrix- Again not a specific comic property but awesome as a film adn a super hero movie
In order:
1. Unbreakable
2. Spider-Man (2002)
3. Superman (1978)
4. X-Men
5. Batman (1989)
6. Batman Returns
7. The Rocketeer
8. Superman II
9. Batman (1966)
10. Daredevil
If a separate matter, most posters here seem to have gotten off the topic Peter originally broached: What is the best SUPERHERO movie ever made? He did not ask what was the best comic book movie, or best comic book adaptation, or similar side-track.
Y'know, I thought I was the only one who noticed that. I didn't think a 'superhero' movie had to be based on a comic book, which is why I put my vote in for the Matrix.
If a separate matter, most posters here seem to have gotten off the topic Peter originally broached: What is the best SUPERHERO movie ever made? He did not ask what was the best comic book movie, or best comic book adaptation, or similar side-track.
Y'know, I thought I was the only one who noticed that. I didn't think a 'superhero' movie had to be based on a comic book, which is why I put my vote in for the Matrix.
WOW¡K the consensus seems to be SM1. It is amazing how the inertia of these conversations can so easily go astray¡K ƒº
The first Batman movie was simply the best superhero movie. Great direction and acting. Very cool humor and "civilian" dialogue. Keaton was great!
Ghost World is probably the best comic adaptation.
SM1 was OK and I agree completely with the assessment that the poignant and powerful scenes ROCKED but the movie just doesn't hold together. Margot Kidder was worse than the Kapshaw in Temple of Doom!
Too many ¡§comic-esque¡¨ movies were mentioned.
Rocketeer- GREAT
X-Men- GOOD (Hugh Jackman, excellent)
Daredevil- OK (Foggy was perfect, similar to how Bendis is currently writing him)
S2-4- drek
Batman 2- super Catwoman, very good movie, could have lost the complexity of the Max subplot). Other Batman movies, lousy.
Again on the Magneto thread....
It's pretty clear in the scene, that the young Magneto doesn't know he's weilding the power...and that in the movie world, there aren't super-powered characters running around so no real reason for him to think "Hey, I have super powers".
I found it a powerful scene, and was quite pleased that it was there, firmly establishing Magneto as Jewish, rather than the lame, in the comics of the time, attempt to retcon him into a more PC gypsy villain (which they also later got rid of).
The comic universes with Superheroes in WW2 are problematic, storywise, because of things like the Holocaust. In DC, like the Golden Age Superman (or post Crisis, Green Lantern as the heavy hitter) and Spectre not stopping it. DC invented the mystic Shield created by the Spear of Destiny (Ostrander's Spectre series states flat out that the Spectre could sense what was happening, but was unable to get past the barrier)....
It's something that in WW2 era stories needs to be addressed, as it's the elephant in the room...but its very difficult to address without seeming to trivialize it.
Y'know, this is hard to say because one person's opinions differ from those of others.
If I had to pick one, it would have to Superman. Simply because it broke the ice. Other than the serials and the one that spun off from the Batman TV series, people weren't really making Superhero movies before then.
There are also others that are favorites of mine. Spider-Man, X-Men, The Rocketeer, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Mystery Men. I've even got a soft spot in my heart for the Generation X TV movie (it was the first time Marvel's mutants appeared in live action. They also really nailed Jubilee's personality, which is something the people writing the comics can't even get a handle on sometimes).
However, I doubt any of those would have been made if Superman weren't made first.
Avi wrote: "And then, how do you think any Jewish citizen who'd been through the horrors of the Holocaust would feel when they too were largely helpless with no superpowers to help them either?"
You seem to imply here that to understand your argument, one has to put himself in the shoes of a Jew. This "If you're not Jewish, you can't understand" argument is just as weak as Pack's insinuation that your zeal was a result of youth -- and thus, by implication, of naivete.
PAD has taken the piss out of the "You can't understand because you weren't there" argument in the past, and I think that he had a point. When you say something like, "You can't understand, because you're not Jewish/black/a woman," not only does it imply that you have some sort of exclusive rights to certain feelings, but it also commits a fallacy in implying that all Jews/blacks/women feel the same way. As if a shared experience automatically leads to a single collective opinion about that experience.
(People did this in the Dangerous Curves argument, being offended on behalf of all women in spite of the fact that, as PAD pointed out, a woman had come up with the marketing hook, and another woman had approved it. I know because I was one of the folks who made that error.)
In the present case, you seem to imply that anyone who's Jewish would find the Holocaust scene in X-Men offensive. This neglects the fact that Bryan Singer, who directed the film, is Jewish. And I don't think he had a problem with it.
Also, Jason F makes some good points about the psychological aspects of the scene. (Different Jason, by the way... I'm not agreeing with myself here.) His intepretation of the scene punches yet another hole in your oddly non-sequitur notion that the only logical thing to follow the opening scene of X-Men would be Magneto single-handedly demolishing the Nazi regime. Why you fail to see how illogical that idea is within the "world" of the film, I can't quite figure out.
Jason
Late to the party, as usual.
Best Superhero movie: SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE. Hands down, accept no substitutes.
Why?
Theme. Actually, a few themes, and I don't mean the John Williams kind. The script had been passed around a bit, but filtered through Tom Mankiewicz artful touch, we not only got a story about duty to oneself versus duty to others (later echoed in Spider-Man), but a neat Christ analogy to boot. Flying back through time? Well, the power of love can cause you to do amazing things.
Dialog. The patter between Lois and Clark is snappy as hell, the first date between Superman and Lois could not have been more adorable.
Scope. It was a huge epic that spanned from Kansas, to New York (Metropolis), to Southern California, to ANOTHER PLANET ferchrissakes! Really, it's three movies in one, all of them great.
Cinematography. All the scope was captured brilliantly by one of the best cinematographers of all time, Geoffrey "2001" Unsworth.
Casting. Sure, Christopher Reeve nailed it, but what about Glenn Ford? Jackie Cooper (a real gem of a performance)? Mark McClurg? Valerie Perrine? Brando? Hackman was entertaining, and not far off from the attitude of the sixties Luthor. And yes, even Margot Kidder brought a pluck to the part that was genuinely charming.
Special Effects. Watched it recently, they still hold up remarkably well. Especially in...
The Helicopter Scene. Arguably one of most exhiliarating suspense sequences in movie history (yeah, that's right), and almost worth the price of admission alone. "You've got me?...Who's got YOU!" was a classic moment in American cinema.
Music. Even John Williams considers it to be some of his best work. I challenge anyone: not only can you hum the theme, but you feel a little more heroic when you do. Admit it.
Durability. The fact we're still talking about it over 20 years later should tell you something.
A truly remarkable movie, and THE best superhero movie of all time.
Best Comic Movie? Ghost World, with Road To Perdition being a close second.
Best Superhero flick? I'd say The Crow, but Eric Draven isn't really a hero- revenge isn't necesarrily heroic as a concept. But The Crow nailed the comic dead on.
I'd say the first Superman, but the time travel ending and "read my mind" has never gone down too well with me.
You could say Akira or Ghost in the Shell- but again, not necessarily heoric.
The first TMNT flick works really well though, if you think about it.
But I'm gonna say the Flash TV movie- it was very well done, and did a nice job updating the world without changing it too much.
-jmt
Guess we'll have to wait until he writes the article. It's really funny how many people have commented on this. It was a hot topic.
I for one would be interested in a heads-up when the article comes out--I want to see what consensus he's able to distill out of the discussion.
I am just shocked and appalled that people still haven't figured out what an unlikable turd of a movie the first Superman film is.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gmslegion/25553.html
And as for the sequel, that was the one with the turgid mess of a fight scene where all these people with super speed move like airborne glaciers on ludes, wasn't it? Utter, utter crap, all of it.
On the other hand, I found the 1966 Batman film in the cheap bins at Wal-Mart, and that was the best $5.88 I've spent in months. That film's fantastically amusing and entertaining, and every stupid part is funny, as opposed to all the stupid bits in the Superman movies, which are distracting and embarassing.
wow..has any other PAD topic ever ignited this many responces? This is wild!
OK, now that we've seem to have thoroughly exhausted this topic, where's the write-up on last night's Angel?
And now that I think about it, does the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie count as a super-hero film? Yes. Does it count as a good one? Certainly not. But it certainly earns mega-brownie points for what it spawned.
Jason:
Oops, did I accidentally imply that? I certainly didn't intend to. Pardon me. I suppose the best way to argue about this would be to ask the reader, how would you feel if you were helpless in such a situation with no superpowers to help you out?
But I want you to know that while whatever I say, I don't think that even a character with electromagnetic powers could beat the nazi tyranny without any competition, that doesn't mean that the way it was done there doesn't trivialize the historical tragedy. It still does. So does the Amazing Spider-Man 36 issue from late 2001.
Whatever anyone's opinions, let me point out that the way I'm presenting my opinions is similar to the way that the late film critic Pauline Kael of the New Yorker presented hers in her time. Please bear in mind that the outspoken crowd does exist, and that it will have the guts to speak out if it feels that movies like the X-Men movie are badly thought out.
And I guess what you call "the outspoken crowd" will have to bear in mind that those of us who are apparently not in that club still have the "guts" to speak out, and will do so if they disagree with the outspoken crowd's opinion.
Particularly in this case, where it's less a question in my mind of the argument as to whether putting a superpowered character into a Holocaust setting trivializes that tragedy.
I'm arguing purely in terms of the mechanics built into the X-Men film itself, which show a young Magneto (or Eric Lenscher, if you like), in a fluke display of his powers that succeeded in doing nothing but bending a wrought iron gate a little bit and then getting his head slammed with the but of a rifle. (Yes, that did happen.)
Your leap in logic from this singular display, played for all intents and purposes as a fluke that mayn't have repeated itself until years after WWII ended, to the notion that Eric could have used his powers to fight the Nazis like a young, electromagnetc Indiana Jones is groundless, given the way they presented the "world" of the X-Men in the film.
For all your assertions that the film is poorly thought out, your leap in logic as to the implications of the film's opening scene is just as flimsy.
And this comparison of yourself to Pauline Kael doesn't seem at all relevant, by the way. The issue at question here is whether the X-Men film trivialized the Holocaust.
The issue of the right to state your opinion and the way in which you do it is what logicians refer to as arguing beside the point. (So as not to seem hypocritical, I'll admit I did this too when I erroneously put opinions in your mouth that you did not intend. This was my mistake, and I apologize.)
Bringing up JSM's ASM 36 is also arguing beside the point, and it also comes close to the fallacy of division (guilt by association, it's more commonly called), where you bring up something else to associate with the main issue, and then attribute the same properties to both, even though they're not the same. Which is to say that if ASM trivialized a tragedy, simply mentioning it alongside X-Men doesn't mean that X-Men commits the same offense.
Jason
"Remo Williams is again, a vigilante, coming from the "pulp" novels of the Destroyer, in its 130s... not sure if he's a "Super"hero either..."
Technically, Vigilantes act without authority. Since Remo is a government (super-secret)agent with a license to kill, he does not qualify as such.
Also, did anyone mention the Warren Beatty/Madonna Flick -- Dick Tracy?
Few quick points:
Avi, how to put this, I really think I've missed your point (and I think you should watch the whole scene to be honest). If Magneto had gone on the rampage then that would have trivialised the whole thing. As many have said your idea of a rampaging child taking down the Nazi's is unrealistic. It's obvious in the scene he doesn't know what is happening and the scene ends with him being brutally knocked unconcious. I am truely sorry you find the scene to be offensive. I'm not Jewish but I found the scene to be incredibly powerful and terrifying. For me it was one of the best bits of the first film as it set up so many things so easily. Magneto was fleshed out as a character and the fact his powers manifested in the camp made it worse, in his mind he thinks as you do...if only etc, and that is why he vows never to let it happen again.
Right that's that out the way.
After reading through I realise I missed a couple:
Iron Giant: The simple line "Superman" brings a tear to my eye everytime.
Hulk series/film: Dodgy effects but great stories and incredible acting, even the music is perfect. The heroism here is overcoming the tragedy.
Mask of the Phantasm: Definately.
Akira: Fantastic film but is it a superhero film?
well just my thoughts.
Alan
Great Movies:
1. Superman the Movie: The best to date. Christopher Reeve rocked.
2. The Rocketeer.
3. Mask of the Phantasm
What do these movies all have in common? They treated the central characters seriously. It is very easy to make fun of guys dressed up in constumes going doing good. The real effort is in presenting them in a way that they will be treated seriously by the audience. In other words, they get us to suspend our disbelief.
In the completely opposite direction are the Batman movies. Totally sucked. Does Batman shop at K-Mart for his costumes. They could at least have the actors work out instead having them wear suits with muscles carved on them. At least Reeve bulked up.
My personal top 10:
1- UNBREAKABLE - Great Archnemesis, Great Dialog, Great lines, Great first time discovering his own powers. Great inside on how comic Book equals modern mithology. And there´s three things that makes to me really a gem : 1-It´s a movie About super-heroes and it´s not at same time ;2- It has possibility of being real, basead on real existing people;3- And most of the Comic book fans Simply couldn´t get it!
2- Rocketeer- Great nostalgy. nothing better to combat the " grim and Gritty Age" like an Hero Can Be a good guy nostalgia.
3- Superman. I dunno,it´s a good adaptation but, Well, It´s actually dated. It´s Superman as they saw it on 70s. The vantage in the other movies, it´s because they are timeless super-man second half is dated.
4- Spiderman- Great trhill. One of my child hood bring to the big Screen, and All that made him great on the comics WAS there.
5- DarkMan- Great Super-heroe Movie Without Being a superheroe movie- We actually saw a Vengeance basead Hero that actually was a kinda crazy.
6- X-men : Modern "Scanners". It not only bring the x-men Back to his sci-fi roots but made sense of things that didn´t made sense on his own comics.
7- Daredevil - it´s the first time we see how SAD his life is. The guy don´t smile until Elektra comes into his life. Guys may protest over this but it a literal transcrit of Frank Miller´s Daredevil.
8-- Teenage Mutant ninja Turtles- Ther first movie was very faithiful to the Comics, there was some watered down parts but it was meant for children.
9- Conan, The Destroyer- i´n not a fan of Conan but this movie was really great
10-IRON Giat - Cartoon- I liket it !
"power ranger costume? closely related? what spiderman film did you see? spidey and green goblin aren't related. "
The Green Goblin just happened to be the Dad of his best mate who he was rooming with!?
By related I did not mean by blood but by association.
If that mask did not look like something out of a Power Ranger movie then you have obviously never seen a Power Ranger movie."
the goblin was harry's father in the comics and was introduced as the goblin before harry or his father made an appearence. the mask predates power rangers by decades and just for the record I have seen all the movies and all eleven or so seasons of power rangers.
"That's not a decision of the filmmakers. (Making them roommates was, but the Goblin's identity was firmly established in the comics.)"
actually if i recall right they were roommmates in the comics around the time of the goblin climax
"I would have to vote for Superman.I ask you this: Is there ANY film that can top the opening sequence through the opening credits? "
Transformers the movie :)
"If a separate matter, most posters here seem to have gotten off the topic Peter originally broached: What is the best SUPERHERO movie ever made? He did not ask what was the best comic book movie, or best comic book adaptation, or similar side-track.
Y'know, I thought I was the only one who noticed that. I didn't think a 'superhero' movie had to be based on a comic book, which is why I put my vote in for the Matrix. "
which brings up the whole is x a super hero. and personally nemo isn't by my defination.
"The first Batman movie was simply the best superhero movie. Great direction and acting. Very cool humor and "civilian" dialogue. Keaton was great!"
first batman movie stared adam west :)(excluding serials)
hoo boy ...now this is some thread
a few points before I get to the main attraction - i see lots of votes for films like Matrix and the like and I'm a little confused as to why people consider this to be a superhero movie? OK it has people doing fantastic things but don't the vast majority of movies over the last 10 to 15 years do that too. Take any Arnie movie or the Die Hard movies or even the Lethal Weapon flicks. No-one out there really belives that happens in those pictures could really happen in real life, do they?
For me the question says superhero so that discounts "Ghost World", "road to perdition" and the like.
So that leaves me with those guys who wear capes or similar. I'm also going to interpret that Peter might have been looking for translations to the silver screen rather than original superhero movies so I'm going to discount the likes of "Mystery men" etc.
For me, the best superhero movie hands down is the first Superman. That movie nailed a character I've never been totally fond of (once a Marvelite, always a Marvelite I guess) in a way that any other interpretation (comics, movies, tv) has never in my opinion done since.
I started reading comics when I was five - around 1971. What I loved about superhero comics then was the nobility, the fair-mindedness, the humanity, the honesty, the sense of sacrifice for one's ideals, the sheer heroism of the main characters. They helped shape my world view and helped make me the person I am. I owe one hell of a lot to those books, especially as my parental role models weren't all they could be. It's not out of court to say I learnt the vast majority of my moral code, my ability to deal with the big bad world from those comics.
Superman the Movie hits those notes perfectly to my recollection. I haven't seen it for years and I'm sure that it's aged to its detriment but what movie with some modicum of reliance on special effects hasn't. But what I remember of Superman the Movie as a kid was a purity of spirit. It drove home to me even at that age that Superman wasn't super because of his powers. it was because he tried to be the best man (person for the PC police) he could be. Made all the more poignant because he wasn't human.
That's down to a great script and a truly superlative performance by a man who has embodied those attributes ever since - Christopher Reeve.
I'll also add (probably to start a big flame war) that I think it's very difficult to understand the impact of that movie using today's sensibiliies i.e if you didn't see it around the time it was released. It's a cliche but those were simpler times and the movie makes more sense in that context.
It's also fair to say that I don't much like superhero comics much nowadays. When I was a kid Captain America stood for the american dream, even when the like of Englehart were questioning what the american dream was. Nowadays I haven't got a clue what he stands for and why he's a hero or heroic and to me that's true of the vast majority of superhero comics out there.
Of the others mentioned, I liked Batman (the Keaton version, the rest are excreable) as a movie but that's not Batman to me, the X-Men/Spidey/Daredevil movies are OK but to me there's a lack of heart at their core (as well as a lack of understanding of how to pace a movie - is it just me or are there no real highs and lows in those movies, just a constant bang, bang, bang, maybe I'n just too old)
So, Superman the Movie for me. I'm getting a lump in my throat now remembering it.
"I'll also add (probably to start a big flame war) that I think it's very difficult to understand the impact of that movie using today's sensibiliies i.e if you didn't see it around the time it was released. It's a cliche but those were simpler times and the movie makes more sense in that context."
I saw it when I came out as a little kid and I hated it myself.
"I saw it when I came out as a little kid and I hated it myself. "
What were you before you "came out"?
(And I know making fun of mistyping on a bulletin board is probably the lowest form of wit, but I couldn't help myself, no offence intended)
Avi,
As evryone knows, if Magneto had started using his powers to take down the Nazi's, then the Nazi's would have just sent the Red Skull after him to harness his powers to use against Captian America and Nick Fury.
Let's face it people, it's just a comic book, a story or a movie. The idea of putting the fictional character into a real life experience, is to make the character more human and apealling, which I believe the X-men movie did and did well. The plot line was also true to the comic's and Magneto's original history.
I thought it was done well and made Magneto a more sympathetic character, because we could all see that the Mutant Registration Act was history repeating itself.
SPB
a few points before I get to the main attraction - i see lots of votes for films like Matrix and the like and I'm a little confused as to why people consider this to be a superhero movie? OK it has people doing fantastic things but don't the vast majority of movies over the last 10 to 15 years do that too. Take any Arnie movie or the Die Hard movies or even the Lethal Weapon flicks. No-one out there really belives that happens in those pictures could really happen in real life, do they?
Fairly big difference between the over-the-top stunts in your examples, which stretch credulity, and those in the Matrix, which flat-out break the laws of physics.
From Dictionary.com: Superhero --A figure, especially in a comic strip or cartoon, endowed with superhuman powers and usually portrayed as fighting evil or crime.
A figure with superhuman powers --I'd say that covers Neo in the Matrix-world pretty handily. Aside from the spoon-bending and such, by the end of the movie he's stopped bullets with his mind and flown. Not really something you'd see John McClane doing.
Funny...a similar topic just came up on another (non-comicbook related) board I frequent. I'll give the same answer here I gave there, even tho I'm just repeating what's already been said a few times: "Superman: The Movie" and "The Rocketeer." They win for me for being both true to their source and for just plain being good films.
"the goblin was harry's father in the comics and was introduced as the goblin before harry or his father made an appearence. the mask predates power rangers by decades and just for the record I have seen all the movies and all eleven or so seasons of power rangers."
Arrrrrrrrrgh!!
I am not arguing the point about the comics, my arguement is that in the comics the concept of people with superhuman abilities is well established and New York in the comics was already full of superhumans so it is more believable that one of them just happens to be the Dad of Parkers room mate. In the movie however it seems there only 2 superhumans on Earth and they both happen to be in New York and actually know each other personally! I just find the odds of this happening a bit farfetched.
So in closing I agree that this was established in the comics but it does not work for me in the context of the movie which did not have the established background the comics have.
A figure with superhuman powers --I'd say that covers Neo in the Matrix-world pretty handily. Aside from the spoon-bending and such, by the end of the movie he's stopped bullets with his mind and flown. Not really something you'd see John McClane
OK but what Arnie in The Terminator films, or many sci-fi films portraying people with psychic powers, or even horror movies. Are Carrie or The Omen superhero (or supervillain) movies? I just think when you include stuff like the Matrix you open up the definition of "superhero" movie up pretty wide.
"I'm also going to interpret that Peter might have been looking for translations to the silver screen rather than original superhero movies so I'm going to discount the likes of "Mystery men" etc."
Just wanted to point out that Mystery Men was a comic book property before becoming a movie. They guest starred in several issues of Flaming Carrot comics, and even had some highly odd text and comic stories in their own magazine.
Just a minor correction...
Good point, Dapo. And if you're the one who made the point about Goblin's helmet being Power Rangerish, I couldn't agree more. They did a wonderful job, IMO, of making Spider-man work despite a full face mask, but forcing Goblin to do the over-exaggerated movements ala Power Rangers, was too much.
They should have either made it his real face (he transforms akin to hulk) or they should have created a mask the reveals most of his face.
Superman The Movie is, was, and always will be a dog. Reeves was great, some pieces worked, but most was drek. It was better than Batman, though.
Gotta go with The Phantom and The Rocketeer for theatrical releases and The Flash pilot movie for TV movies.
"In the movie however it seems there only 2 superhumans on Earth and they both happen to be in New York and actually know each other personally! I just find the odds of this happening a bit farfetched."
I remember reading a Wizard article once upon a time that described how Ditko and Lee had a big argument over the identity of the Green Goblin over just this issue, with Ditko feeling that making the Green Goblin someone totally unconnected to Peter would make him more realistic and therefore a better character. It never bothered me one way or the other, but I just thought someone might be interested.
Oh, and my favorite movie vote goes to X-Men.
Dapo writes:
"In the movie however it seems there only 2 superhumans on Earth and they both happen to be in New York and actually know each other personally! I just find the odds of this happening a bit farfetched.
So in closing I agree that this was established in the comics but it does not work for me in the context of the movie which did not have the established background the comics have."
OK. I think I understand what you're saying. You find that, in the movie, the coincidence of the only superpowered characters being related (thematically, relationship-wise, whatever...) as being a bit much to accept. I can understand that.
I don't know that I agree, though. But that's OK. Different strokes for different folks.
Particularly in the case of first, "origin" movies--and particularly in the case of movies about a single superhero instead of a superheroic teams (like your X-Men or Mystery Men)--I guess I can understand why filmmakers chose to have the superpowered heroes and villains related.
If, as is often the case with an "origin" movie, you're positing that the world of the movie was pretty much normal until the catalyzing event that created the hero, then I can understand how it might actually be viewed as a strain on credibility to incorporate a totally seperate catalyzing event to explain the creation of a superpowered villain. Filmmakers who feel this way might well be compelled to make your hero and villain related in terms of origin, relationship, or theme (even if not in pure narrative logic) with the hope that that choice might make for a more credible storyline, not a less credible one. To the extent that that's true, I understand where such decisions come from.
Re Spidey/Goblin: Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the filmmakers are to be commended for not taking the easy way out and linking the Goblin and Ben's killer. They could have used this to streamline the storyline, but at the cost of being true to the comics' origin. (Compare "Batman.")
I suppose everyone is reading about Broadway now, but if anyone is still reading, I liked the Batman movie, but one point that annoyed me (and the reference to making the Joker Joe Chill reminded me)was that he was a street punk but also happened to be a chemistry genius (I think they said he was good at it in high school or college) who could make the "Joker toxin" that threatened Gotham. That was a stretch (though I don't know if they ever explained that in the comics either). I know I'm really devolving this thread from "Best Super Hero" movie to nitpicking about a scene in a 15 year old movie, but hey, that's what makes this site great.
For those who bring it up: The Matrix is a superhero movie because The Wachowski Brothers are making it one. The first movie was just a setup to create a world where a superman could believably exist. To quote producer Joel Silvers " "[Writer-directors Larry and Andy Wachowski] wrote The Matrix as a long story. They wanted to tell a superhero story, so they created this world where one could be a superhero and it would be believable, because you're in your head and you have the power to free your mind...the sequels are the story that they wanted to tell"
JimO - that part bothered me too in the Batman movie - they didn't in any way establish how the Joker could have figured out how to do that chemistry. In the comics, however, he is much more insane, I think, and that insanity has given him a crazy genius.
Did you ever see the movie "They Might Be Giants"? In it, George C. Scott's character plays a man who goes crazy and actually THINKS he's Sherlock Holmes. Thinks it so much he goes from being a fairly smart guy to developing an observational acuity as great as Holmes himself. That's how I see the Joker in the comics - he thinks he's a genius, and he's so crazy that he becomes one.
Sorry to go off topic - that particular thought has bothered me too, so I wanted to chime in.
It wasn't a movie, but it should've been. The origin of Two-Face in the Batman animated series. It was sooo much better than the lousy Batman Forever and was everything the live action films should've been.
I liked the Rocketeer, The Shadow, the Crow, and the first half of Howard The Duck. It lost me when they brought the demon-creature down and Howard has to save the day. If they would have continued in the vein of the original Steve Gerber stories, it could have been a great film. I really didn't care for the original Superman movies. They were good, but I can't remember the last time I made the concious decision to sit down and watch them, same with the Batman Films. I personally find the cliches in Superhero movies, where they kill off a major bad guy, like the Joker, or the superheroes secret identity is revealed to everyone. All of Batman's girlfriends, with the exception of in Batman and Robin found out he was Batman, the villains also seemed to figure it out also. What's the point of a secret identity then? Though I think Chris O'Donell would be perfect in a NightWing movie.
It seems that the first Superman movie is the overwhelming choice as the best super-hero movie of all time, and I really can't disagree with those who picked it as such. The Rocketeer and the Phantom would be close seconds in my book as well. The Shadow, Spider-Man, and Daredevil would be honorable mentions, along with Nightman (TV series), and the Flash (TV series) as well. Underrated favorites of mine that never seemed to take off are the Sheena TV series, Supergirl (which was a much better movie than people give it credit for), Swamp Thing (the best low budget cheesy super-hero film ever in my book)Lois & Clark (there was great casting and chemistry, along with good writing for a TV series) and Doc Savage (I know people hated this movie, but I actually liked it).
Concepts that seemed to have been overlooked, but which I think would make great TV series or movies are Code Blue (the Marvel Universe version of a swat team), Sgt Fury, Two-Gun Kid, Ka-Zar (hey if they can do Shenna why not Ka-Zar or Shanna The She-Devil?), Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Kid Colt, Challengers Of The Unknown, Sea Devils, Cave Carson (set in the late Fifties), Combat Kelly, Rip Hunter, Mike Danger, and the Dark Horse character Ghost. The best part about most of these concepts is that they wouldn't need tons of money on special effects, which means that money could be spent on the SCRIPT!
Worst movies and TV series of all time in my opinion? All 5 Batman movies (including the Adams West Batman movie), Jon Sable (the short lived TV series which I'm sure everybody has forgotten about), Dick Tracy (Warren Beatty & Madonna - ugh!), The Human Target (does anyone even remember this series?), The Joe Lando syndicated Tarzan series, Mantis, Birds Of Prey, Smallville, and Wonder Woman. I sure my comments are bound to stir up some controversy, I mean am I the only one who hated all the Batman movies? Sorry, but Tim Burton and Quentin Tarrantino are two over-rated Hollywood types who've produced movies I've never enjoyed - even a little bit. Maybe it's just me, but I just don't like their stuff.
"If, as is often the case with an "origin" movie, you're positing that the world of the movie was pretty much normal until the catalyzing event that created the hero, then I can understand how it might actually be viewed as a strain on credibility to incorporate a totally seperate catalyzing event to explain the creation of a superpowered villain. Filmmakers who feel this way might well be compelled to make your hero and villain related in terms of origin, relationship, or theme (even if not in pure narrative logic) with the hope that that choice might make for a more credible storyline, not a less credible one. To the extent that that's true, I understand where such decisions come from. "
I can see the problem filmmakers may have when trying to create a new hero and a new villian at the same time especially in a world where none existed before, and you are right I hate the cliche of making their origins interwined. What about if they try and establish the villian as already being in existance and running wild without anyone to stop him/her till the "new" hero gets his powers and then he has a ready made foe. Just a thought.
Since David M. Harszlak added some ideas for good potential series, I thought I'd throw out two that have been on mind lately. Especially after they so royally screwed up sucha wonderful concept in Birds of Prey (should've kept the international aspect, lost the future time frame and switched huntress and black canary/dinah...since comic dinah is a brunette). I just think Green Arrow and Suicide Squad would make excellent series. GA more in the vein of Longbow Hunters/Mike Grell years and the Suicie Squad that mixes Ostrander and Giffen. Keep Robbins and company away from them and they have potential.
I've got to say that my favourite is probably the Matrix, with massive brownie points to Unbreakable.
The Matrix, discounting the varied philosophical context, really displays the evolution of a man that realizes that he does have a gift, and chooses to do something with that gift, selflessly and thanklessly. Even in a situation that he knows to be suicidal, he stands his ground. I really can't wait to see the next two movies, as I think they'll really amp up what Neo can do, and why he's doing it.
Unbreakable deserves kudos for being vague about the possibility of superheroes in a very grounded and realistic world. It's hard to tell whether David is just an ordinary man or something more, but his actions are very human, and it's what I admire most about this film.
Coming in VERY late to all this...
Serious comments first:
I'm echoing all the praise for Supes I (and II, though to a slightly lesser degree). Even now, 25 years later, the only part that makes me wince a lot is the Superman/Lois flight and poem. Lex worked just fine for me, even with the idiocy that was Otis. I thought Lex was a lot more forced and campy in the second film than the first one -- in the first one, it was just the right mix of not taking itself too seriously and not going way over the top.
(Besides, Lex/Otis had a few great exchanges in the first film. "Do you know why the number 200 is so vitally important in describing both of us?", indeed.)
Lex himself was great. The little voice in Superman's ear when he's drawing him in is terrific: "There's a strong streak of good in you, Superman -- but then nobody's perfect. Well ... almost nobody..."
The performances were just so ... well, just so RIGHT that it's hard to find much fault. Jackie Coogan captured Perry about as well as the actor in "Spider-Man" captured Jonah, and had a bit more to do in the bargain. (I've always liked the moment where he's got all the reporters together and asks each of them a question. He gets to Clark and asks, "what's his favorite ball team, Kent?" What makes that moment for me is that Clark's so clearly about to just answer him...)
The "flying back through time" moment is pretty goofy, but there's enough power in that moment that I can usually swallow it despite whatever better judgment I possess. (The vision of Jor-El saying "it is forbidden" combined with Superman flying on, so clearly thinking "screw it, Dad" is pretty iconic.)
Spider-Man is probably up there, but only having seen it once a year ago I don't think I can compare them fairly. The one bit that really didn't work for me -- the "wince moment," to use someone else's great term -- was the physical look of the Goblin. I didn't think Power Rangers, but I did think "old Japanese robots-duking-it-out movies," which is basically the same thing. The rest of it captured the essence of the character really well -- and I'll second the praise for NOT somehow tying Osborn into Uncle Ben's death. That always bugged me about Burton's Batman, no matter how good a job Nicholson did.
In terms of "superhero in all but name," I'll definitely put in votes for Buckaroo Banzai and Robocop. I thought for years that Peter Weller would've made a great Batman -- he's got just the right haunted features to be Bruce, and had already proven he could act with nothing but a chin. :-)
Okay, then, some lighter fare.
-- All the debate here about the flying-through-time sequence can't help but remind me of the Jason Alexander episode of "Muppets Tonight" a number of years ago. In one bit, Alexander is playing Hercule Poirot, but all the Muppets are misunderstanding and thinking he's Hercules. He gets more and more annoyed with it, until someone finally suggests he fly around the world and turn time backwards to solve the crime. His reaction is ... well, it's just well worth seeing.
And as for Lex/Otis, I was actually having visions of that conversation a week or so ago when the news was full (okay, fullER) of articles about the new map we're drawing of the Middle East. All I could think of was,
"Take a look at this. Rumsfeldia. Costa Del Don. Dubyaville. I ... Dubyaville?"
"Well ... I mean ... Dick and Condi both have THEIR own places."
"Dubya-ville?"
"It's an itty bitty place."
"DUBYA-ville?"
And George starts wiping it off the map.
Okay, running away now.
TWL
"Is this how a warped brain like yours gets its kicks? By plotting the deaths of innocent people?"
"No -- by causing the deaths of innocent people."
PAD,
Your previous few blog entries prompted responses in double figures.
The next blog entry prompted, oh, about four replies.
On April 22 you asked a community of comic fanboys what the best superhero movie ever was. You got more than 200 replies.
Was April 22 some sort of blog sweeps day?
Superman the movie is the best.
After that I'd put Unbreakable there.
Never saw Rocketeer.
Superman 2 is great but it could be better. Zod just making up powers as he went along annoyed me.
Best superhero movie, "IT HAPPENS EVERY SPRING" with Ray Milland possessing anti-wood powers. When he loses it, he becomes wood-friendly and gets the girl!
Mr. Watson, I guess it's your opinion, but personally, I would never want to see a TV show that's anything like Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters. What sickens me about that book from the past decade or so is that Mike Grell, overrated writer that he is, went overboard in how he wrote poor little Dinah getting beaten up by that gang of thugs, something that he seems to enjoy writing about more than a bit, and it's also what turned me off in his wretched run on Iron Man when dealing with Pepper Potts. He says it's in order to make them more driven and tougher, but I'm not fooled. That witch called Ayisha was also a very questionable character, not to mention dreadful. I wouldn't hire a disgraceful writer like him for kingdoms.
If you can allow for an "honorable mention" category for TV episodes, the list absolutely MUST include the "Ghost in the Machine" episode of "The Flash." Absolutely a lot of fun, with a wonderfully stylistic homage to the comic book and serials of the 1950s. An absolutely perfect piece of super-hero-to-film work. (In fact, the ONLY way this one could have been improved would have been if the Sandmanesque character of Nightshade had instead been some other fella who ran around in a red shirt and a winged silver bowl on his head...)
For me Superman II has got to be the best comic movie so far. I mean, come on! It had people throwing buses at each other. What more could you want. The Rocketeer is a close second. I really think it could have been a bigger film if Diseny had marketed it better. If Superman made you believe a man could fly, the first the Rocketeer took it made me beleive I WAS flying. I'll have to rent it sometime and see if the effect is just as good on the small screen.
Punisher and Captain America! just kidding...
1) Spider-Man: true to comic books, good acting, great direction and script. A perfect hero myth, I have a feeling the screenwriter was heavily influenced by Joseph Campbell's work.
2) Unbreakable: great birth of a hero tale. Very well written and as realistic as a such a story could be.
3) Batman and Batman Returns: dark and moody, the way Batman should be. Nice art direction by Burton.
And the rest are ok to plain crappy. Superman is awful, too many plot holes and campiness. The later Batman flicks are just poorly written and directed. Why exactly did Two-Face and the Riddler both act like the Joker? X-Men was alright but far too little character development. Haven't seen the second or Daredevil yet.