PeterDavid.net

You know, I could say that people who don't understand the name Bete Noir need to read more, but...

...oddly, my first impression of the name was that it, and the premise of Fallen Angel (a corrupt little city) reminded me of the movie The Big Easy.

So that's what I think of when I hear Bete Noir. I half expect it to be a part of the vast New Orleans metro area where law and order don't quite reach. :)

Heh. I just realized after posting the above that myself and PAD are the only ones crazy enough to be up and working at this time of night. :)

Hey, I scored a perfect "16" in reading and comprehension on my college entrance exam back in 1992 because comics made me look up terms like "bete noir" back then. =)

As for the Byrne Victims, everyone be cool. PADophiles can be rabid on occasion as well. I seem to recall getting flamed within an inch of my monitor for asking what class a starship was in the NEW FRONTIER "Captain's Table" book back when. =)

Bete Noir; translated form the French would stand as "Black Beast".

Who in their right mind would call a city such a stupid name.

Oh I see.

Since many cities DO have stupid names, it is a great idea to use a stupid one.

Riiiiiight.

The whole Byrne thing blows up every now and then. On my site we just had a discussion about the inhumans and one of the people asked if Lockjaw was a dog or an inhuman ? This reminded me the atrocity that Byrne had done in making Lockjaw speak, and the way PAD corrected it on the pages of X-factor.

Not having read Fallen Angel yet, I can't comment about it, but I do have a question - shouldn't the spelling be 'Bete Noire' ?

And as for alternative name, you could always call it "Schwartze Chaye".

Ah the curse of speaking multiple languages.

Names like Bete Noire might seem cool to English speaking people, but it just sounds silly in French.

It might sound cool to call something "l'Anus Bleu", but once you know it is a silly as "the Blue Poop-hole", it does not seem so cool anymore.

But I guess it might sound cool to those who do not know better.

So many will read the sdventures that happens in the Beast Black town.

Good for you.

Maybe I should write my book featuring L'Anus Bleu and le Cul Vert.

I'll make a fortune.

X posted: Names like Bete Noire might seem cool to English speaking people, but it just sounds silly in French.

How much sillier is the name of Louisiana's capital--Baton Rouge (which means "red stick")? Or even that fairly obscure town, Los Angeles--that is, of course, an abbreviated form of the old name, but "The Angels" as a city name? What about naming a city "Yellow" (such as "Amarillo" in Texas)?

The US has plenty of places which have "foreign" names which, if taken literally by speakers of those languages, make little sense or may even be a bit silly. (Of course, England has a lot of odd-sounding place names, until you do a bit of poking through the region's history.)

It should also be noted that bête noire, in French, is used with the same meaning as in English--as a person or thing which is avoided or detested--and not only taken literally.

Speaking of odd town names, Durham (in the North-East of England) has "Pity Me" and "No Place". (There's an annual run between the two of them, which I think is mainly an excuse to print both names on a T-shirt.)

Man, John Byrne got me into superheroes. That's why it's so sad when I see his columns these days. They're always so bitter and anal. And he rants about so much that he himself is guilty of that... well frankly, he doesn't seem too bright.

Which is pretty sad for me as a fan. His run on "Fantastic Four" will always be my own "Golden Age of Comics."

Random trivia - Baton Rouge was named after Le petit baton rouge or little red stick, which was compared to the color or tabasco-like peppers to determine if they were ready. Big business in those parts, back in the day...

They still have Byrne victims?

Can anybody explain the bad blood between Byrne and David? (Or is it a case of someone who was good once who no longer is, being jealous of someone who keeps getting better?)

Just a few random thoughts that have drifted through my head upon reading PAD's note and the resulting comments:

1. There's also a Boring, Oregon.

2. Besides the name of the town, there's been another Bete Noir in the DCU: A villainess named Bette Noire in the Martian Manhunter comic book.

3. For those mentioning non-English place names, one of my favorites is Manteca, California. In Spanish, mateca means lard.

You know what? I LIKE "Bette Noir" and "Bludhaven." I'll tell you why:

Metropolis

Gotham

Keystone

Gateway

In each of the examples above the fictional cities are characters as much as they are settings. Those settings affect the characters who live there as much as other characters would.

Bet this guy HATED Kurt Busiek's Astro City.

And let's not forget Purgatory, Colorado. Or, if you want something simple, how about the town of Bill in Wyoming?

And hey! Watch what you say about Metropolis! I've been there and seen the 15 foot statue of Superman and the Superman museum. It's in SE Illinois.

Hey Peter - don't forget that Intercourse, PA is right next to Blue Ball, PA...those whacky Amish...

Perdition, Kansas. Guess that Road to Perdition comic must have sucked the big one, eh?

This was a very good read. It was a good setup I hope you evolve the setup as you go. I almost thoought this was within the DCU. Is it? Can it be if it is creator owned?

The only nit was when Pad had a "grammar joke" I think about redundancy in the book. This broke the immersion th book made for me. It's not good when the author's "voice" peeks through the dialogue. Just my opinion.

Anyway, I really enjoyed it and it is on my pull list (which is pretty short these days)

So "X" has never heard of the idea of using an interesting place name as a way to help establish a mood?

Mr. X, you really need to expand your horizons. Read more, travel more, live more. Lots of interesting things happen outside of Mom & Dad's house.

...and speaking of weird city names, I live in a little town in Quebec, Canada named 'Ile Bizard', which is [phonetic] French for 'Strange Island', or ‘Bizarre’ Island if you will.

And yes, it gets pretty spooky at night.

If you want to read some interesting town names, read Blue Highways by William Least-Heat Moon.

He shows us Dime Box, Texas and other towns like Why, WhyNot and a plethora of small wonderful towns in the rural US.

Travis

Haha! PAD, that post is awesome. I confess, I've been drawn to the Byrne board lately out of some morbid fascination with these folks who are turning out to be some of the most rabidly depraved people on the net.

I don't refer to everyone on the board, mind you; some are quite friendly and intelligent. I debated with one of the posters there about the Hulk movie, for example, and while we ended up agreeing to disagree, he was nonetheless very civil.

But wow... PAD, if you think that the stuff about "Fallen Angel" was ridiculous... check out, for example, the thread about Princess Di turning up in X-Statix. One poster -- in as friendly and unassuming a way as possible -- gently pointed out that he really likes X-Statix... and people just began to insult him left and right. They didn't debate him; they insulted him. One poster even said he had "no place being on the board," apparently for no other reason than that he has a differing opinion.

The John Byrne Message Board: the most fascist comic book fan site on the internet! :)

I haven't read the book yet, but I think Bete Noire sounds a lot more realistic than many comic book towns. As much as I love them, names like Gateway City and Keystone City seem to point to the obvious fact that a superhero lives there.

Personally, my favorite town names are probably the quaint little names from the frequent trips I used to take to Long Beach Island, New Jersey. These included Ship Bottom, Loveladies and Surf City. Come to think of it, those names all remind me of another town in the DCU. Happy Harbor, Rhode Island, former hangout of Hourman, Young Justice and the original Justice League of America.

Hmmm. I live near a town called "Sweet Lips." Though most of the interesting town names here arise through Southern mispronunciation -- like the town of "Trenton," with a silent "t" in the middle, or "Milan," pronounced "My-lan."

I loved the name Bete Noir. I think this city has a chance to become as much a character as Astro City, Gotham, Metropolis or Denny O'Neil's Hub City.

Also in Louisiana are the towns of Waterproof, Pumpkin Center, and Baptist. The last two are near each other and if you drive by them on interstate 10, you will see a sign proclaiming "Baptist Pumpkin Center."

Don't forget the amazing town of Cementville Indiana!!!

I once stopped for gas at a Shell station in Tickfaw, Louisiana -- which (probably not coincidentally) had the foulest men's room I've ever seen. (And I'm sure there are some wonderful people who live in Tickfaw, but what a name for a town!)

As far as stupid city names go, there's always Boca Raton, Florida.

Hmmm. I live near a town called "Sweet Lips." Though most of the interesting town names here arise through Southern mispronunciation -- like the town of "Trenton," with a silent "t" in the middle, or "Milan," pronounced "My-lan."

Jason,

I know what you mean.

We've lived in West TN for five years now, and I still have to correct my wife on the pronunciation of Milan.

And we're from Missouri with such wonderful places as "Versales" (spelled Versailles).

-Joe

If you want a whole bunch of "interesting" real place names, but assigned fictitious meanings, go see Douglas Adams and John Lloyd's The Meaning of Liff or their later volume - The Deeper Meaning of Liff.

Bete Noir sounds as good as any place (and better than many) to set Fallen Angel. I'm looking forward to reading the first issue when my box of comics arrive at the end of the month.

Neil

Well, while we're throwing out towns, there's a small town in Georgia (and I mean really small) called "Between." You can literally be in Between.

Bobby

The Travel Channel website has a nice write-up of Gary Gladstone's book "Passing Gas: And Other Towns Along the American Highway," which is all about oddly-named US towns.

http://www.jsonline.com/dd/destnat/may03/138131.asp

I'm putting Gladstone's book on my Amazon wish list. :)

I just went over to the JB boards, WOW, what a scary place. JB was the one to imediatly jump on the poster and ask for a thread lockdown. Byrne has "issues". Get it ??? :)

What I found interesting was that Bete Noir is very much an expression in English, as I found when I looked it up:

http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/01/03.html

It wasn't one I was familiar with, but unlike "Troll X" I at least realized it had to have deeper meaning than simply "Black Beast".

I live in Washington State, and one of my favorite books as a kid was a Washington State place names book. In it I learned that some town names had the oddest origins. There is a town not far from here named Enumclaw, which apparently translates to "Place of Evil Spirits". So "Black Beast" is nothing.

The route I drove to get to college went by Rural, Indiana, which really says it all.

Hey, as long as Peter's naming towns after Bryan Ferry albums, I approve.

I'm a big fan of Radium Springs, Georgia, myself. Don't drink the water!

--Grant

I used to live in rural Northern Nevada, where they have a tradition of decorating the sides of their mountains with giant letters representing the first letter of various town names. This wasn't so bad where I lived, in Winnemucca, since each and every day we were greeted with a giant "W" on our mountain. However, I felt sorry for the denizens of Battle Mountain, about an hour away, since they looked up every day at a giant "BM." That's right--it's like someone took a huge dump on their mountain!

Speaking of the Byrne board, it happens to be the only other comics creator's board that I tend to read semi-regularly and post at on occasion. I feel I've managed to get away with more off-topic irreverence than most, perhaps because I balance it with an honest appreciation for some of his work, or perhaps because I'm just not enough of a regular for him to bother getting mad at. I will say that it's an attractive site, many of the posters have clever things to say, and JB will respond amazingly quickly to legitimate queries about his work. Just don't try getting into a debate with the man, because it's a debate YOU CANNOT WIN! (Or, to quoth Paul Simon, "A man hears what he wants to hear, and he disregards the rest.")

Man, I'm only an hour and a half away from Climax, NC. Road trip this weekend!

How about Climax, Saskatchewan? Granted, I've never been there, but I have a friend who used to live there.

Apparently, there's the usual "Thanks for coming!" sign when you leave the town.

Dumb town names just don't happen in America, I'm afraid.

Jago, native of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan

Not a place name per se, but my city of Ottawa does have one interesting juxtaposition of names.

Hemlock Road which runs alongside a cemetery. (Beechwood Cemetery to be exact.)

I'm NOT making this UP, you know!

Milan, Michigan is pronounced My-lan.

Apparently, there are not too many Italians in that neighborhood.

The Byrne message board has been plagued from time to time with people who either just want to rampantly flame Byrne and his fans, or who want to use it as a general discussion forum. I don't think it's unreasonable that such things be strongly discouraged.

They've always treated me okay, though.

I'm not sure what I think of Fallen Angel yet. But then, it's only one issue, so that's not too surprising.

bete noire \bet-NWAHR\, noun:

Something or someone especially hated or dreaded; a bugbear.

Even more regrettable, as far as Dame Edna is concerned, is the presence of her old bete noire, the extravagantly disgusting Sir Les Patterson.

--"The Dame's New Man," Daily Telegraph, April 18, 1998

His reputation as a reformer may prove distasteful to most members of Parliament, but Kiriyenko is too obscure a figure to be a bete noire like his mentor.

--"Yeltsin Names Neophyte, 35, as Prime Minister," New York Times, March 28, 1998

[S]peech making became her bete noire.

--"Uh, Um, It's Time for a Speech," Newsday, November 12, 1994

Bête noire is French for "black beast."

By the way I loved the book. And as a fan of Buffy\Angel I will attest to the fact that this book is not a rip off of the Josh Whedon property.

Regards:

WSJ3

I just finished talking with a guy in Endswell, New York... And yes, I am happy to report that all is well there. :)

Having grown up in North Carolina, I know that Climax, NC is not too far from Horneytown, NC.

I would also like to know what the bad blood between John Byrne and Peter David is? I also think that Bete Noir is a cool name for a city

Fallen Angel being Creator Owned doesn't necessarily make it non-DCU...Sovereign 7 for instance was both DCU and creator owned...there's been one or two others that have done that as well...

So that's what I think of when I hear Bete Noir. I half expect it to be a part of the vast New Orleans metro area where law and order don't quite reach. :)

Uhm, isn't that what PAD has said it is?

Someday someone will write about all the weird and unusual things that ironically go on in NORMAL, IL.

"Or, if you want something simple, how about the town of Bill in Wyoming?"

Or How about the town of George in Washington or the town Joe in Montana?

John Byrne has an ego the size of... well, Ego the living planet. The Gods honest truth of the matter is that the only thing he has ever written that I've read thats note worthy in the slightest is his run on the Fantastic Four.

His Superman? Mediocre.

His Hulk? Mediocre.

His Namor? Less than Medicore.

His X-Men? Pathetic.

The man should have stuck to drawing comics only.

And for you Arrowsmith fans, there is an intersection here in Tacoma WA where Stevens Street turns into Tyler Street.

Lets not forget about "Big Ugly" West Virginia

Well, if we're going for street names, back at the start of the current Iraq war there were a bunch of protests in San Francisco. Most were along the main drag of Market Street, but police were initially surprised by a smaller, but still sizable one that wasn't near the others.

Until they realized that it was at the intersection of Bush and Powell.

On fun city names, I've always liked Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, named after the radio and later tv pseudo-game show of the same name as part of a publicity stunt (the latter day version would be Half, OR renaming itself Half.com for a year).

The John Byrne Message Board: the most fascist comic book fan site on the internet! :)

And the really amusing thing is that it put the Warren Ellis Forum to shame, and Ellis used the nickname of Stalin. Okay, so that's Communism, but it's just as tyranical.

To be fair to the JB Board, it really was only two or three posters who thought "Fallen Angel" was a rip-off of Buffy, most everyone else who posted in the thread saw the obvious differences.

"Bet this guy HATED Kurt Busiek's Astro City."

Nah... Best name there is after Ottawa and Boston. ;)

Just checked the John Byrne forum, not sure why pepole here are bashing Byrne for the Bete Noire comment, he has nothing to do with that exept that someone decided to express himself on HIS forum.

One of my favorite fictional (?) place names was in a fantasy novel I read several years ago, and the town was called Pomme Du Terre (my French spelling from memory is not so good). Anyway, the translation is "apple of the earth," or "potato," and I think living in Potato, France would be pretty cool.

Not sure why some people feel like they have to bash John for something that I wrote.

I understand not liking the guy or the work he does, but bashing him for something he has nothing to do with makes no sense.

All he asked was that people lay off on the OT threads.

But it seems that it is enough of an invitation on this board to bash the dude. The very same thing you reproach the Byrne fans to do to your idol/god/whatever.

How sad.

In talking with the original poster at the Byrne Board, the comment in question is not so much "who would name a real-world city this", but "who would name a fictional city this?" He just thought "Bete Noir" was a lousy sounding name. Which, incidently, is how I interpreted the comment when I first read it there.

That's about the only comment (pro or con) that appears in the thread.

In terms of strange place names...please. I live in Newfoundland. I have to drive through Dildo (and South Dildo) to get to my grandparents who live in Heart's Delight. If I want to see my aunt and uncle, I have to go through Heart's Desire and Heart's Content.

I also spent time working at a community newspaper that had the town of Come By Chance in its coverage area.

And that doesn't include places such as Conception Bay, Placentia, Upper Gullies, Joe Batt's Arm, Virgin's Arm and Leading Tickles. Just to name a few.

Bete Noir? Kind of...blasse, isn't it? ...;)

Well, I live in Kentucky, a state with a town named Versailles, which isn't pronounced like Louis XIV's palace, but VER-SAILS. :)

I used to live on a Possum Trot ridge...and there's a place nearby called Chicken Gizzard. *shrugs*

Bete Noir sounds kinda classy to me. So does Astro City. And Keystone City. Heck, even Leesburg. :)

Another bad Lousiana name: Westwego... pronounced West-We-Go.

Or How about the town of George in Washington

We also have a Martha, Washington.

...don't forget Head-Bashed-In-Buffalo-Jump in Alberta.

Head-Smashed-In buffalo jump shouldn't count, because it isn't a town. It's an archaeological site (a buffalo jump, naturally; http://www.head-smashed-in.com) near Fort Macleod (http://www.fortmacleod.com). Incidentally, for anyone in the southern Alberta area, Head-Smashed-In is well worth a visit.

>His Namor? Less than Medicore.

Um, did Byrne do the run of Namor in which it was "discovered" that his occasional berserk rampages were the result of a chemical imbalance and that he had to spend 1 hour of each day either in or out of water to keep the condition in remission? If so, I thought that the comic was pretty good.

Well, I didn't care for the first issue personally, but the name Bete Noir was one of the things about it that I really liked. Although I didn't know what "Bete" meant before reading this board, I understood that the name had dark French connotations on a par with New Orleans, and it sounded really classy and mysterious.

I can't imagine why, of all the things to criticize about someone's writing, someone would pick naming a city "Bludhaven" or "Bete Noir" because they're supposedly "lousy" names. I mean, what kind of a rock are you living under? You'd think people could offer criticism that was at least somewhat more constructive.

I live in Kentucky as well, and I live near communities called Wax, Snap, Ready, Crow Holler, and Madrid (pronounced MAD (like crazy) - rid.

I like the name Bete Noir a lot.

The community PAD refers to in Kentucky is actually Monkey's Eyebrow, and it figured into an Uncle Scrooge tale by Don Rosa a while back.

Incidentally, I like both PAD and JB, so I visit both websites on a regular basis.

Kentucky seems to have a monopoly on strange names. I grew up in a town called Paint Lick, which was only 20 minutes from Camp Dick. The eastern part of the state includes a town called Love which is a hop, skip and a jump from Beauty. Egypt is also in the western part of the state. I'm not sure if they have any pyramids though... :-)

And then there's another town in Saskatchewan that -- if it still exists -- ought to be demanding royalties for use of its name by a TV show about a certain Warrior Princess, and I ain't talking Marg Delahunty from the Royal Canadian Air Farce either...

Yours,

Dwight

Okay, I'm not bragging about it, exactly, but I used to live right next to Goosepimple Juction, Va.

There are some bizarre names in french too: Andouille, Poil (which gives chuckles to everyone who hears people say they were "nés à Poil", an expression that means being born stark naked), Morlaix (which phonetically resembles "Mords-les" -Bite them), and Condom. I have no problem at all with Bête Noire.

I can't believe nobody has mentioned the hometown of the Indiana Pacers (and formerly the Boston Celtics') player Larry Bird:

French Lick, Indiana. It's just down the road from (I-kid-you-not) Naked City; which really *IS* a nudist camp.

The translation of "Bete Noire" (and that is the correct spelling, too) means "Black beast" or "black animal"--but transliterates into either "Black Sheep", a "scapegoat," or a "Pet Peeve", depending of the context.

"Bete Noire" is definitely the "Black Sheep" of the DCU's towns; but I think "Pet Peeve" seems to better fit the spirit of the board here . . . . (Heh.)

Goosepimple Junction?!? I looooove it!

Right here, in my home county, we also have Moutardier (which is pronounced MOODY-DEER), Tar Hill, and Bloody Ridge.

...and my favourite town for the comedy clubs: St-Louis-du-Ha!-Ha!, Quebec.

Yolande

I use to live in Kalamazoo, MI ( a funny name all it's own), which is near Climax, MI on I94. We always had a blast driving that way, the signs reading "Climax 15 miles" etc. It was kinda like a countdown....

Another joke was that there is a Heaven and a Hell, Michigan, so you could go from Heaven to Hell and hit Climax in between.

There is also a Gay, Michigan. The bar in town (which is a straight bar) sells t-shirts that say "Go straight to the Gay Bar" in Gay, Michigan.

Suburban Maryland has a Scaggsville, but the residents are trying to get it changed. The Scaggs family was apparently one of the early settlers in that area.

Also, the road signs around Climax weren't made of metal but wood because they are so frequently stolen.

To be fair to the JB Board, it really was only two or three posters who thought "Fallen Angel" was a rip-off of Buffy, most everyone else who posted in the thread saw the obvious differences.

Yes, but one of the posters was Byrne himself. Repeatedly. And when the "Fallen Angel" thread was begun on his current board, he was the first one to respond with a terse questioning of why it was there at all. Now I've no idea whether he challenges all off topic threads (although considering the mandate of the board is to discuss the comics field in general, I'm not sure how anything could be considered off topic), but I doubt it.

John sets the tone. So when people respond to that tone, it's not all that surprising when people over here take him to task for it.

Me, I was just making an observation about a mindset that pervades any John Byrne board. I wasn't out to pillory his body of work. I was, and remain, a fan of much of what he has produced.

PAD

Some intresting names I've come across in Alabama and Georgia- Gay, GA, Rooster, GA, Slapout, Al.

Kalamazoo, Michigan, has a great sub-sandwich shop called Galley Subs. Yum, yum.

I'm now really getting more of a sense for what all those jokes mean: "...When John Bryne was good..."

Whatever his sensibilities these days, I still very much enjoy his old work. His X-Men run, of course, Fantastic Four, and I'm planning on even getting the "Man of Steel" TPBs coming out this October, of his past stories.

But really, in truth, when I look at his past work I almost consider him a long dead creator. Honestly, it's as if he's dead to me - regardless of the fact he's still breathing.

Any possibility of a Zombie/Undead senario?

Oh well. His stuff was still good back then. But his comments do sound like he's extremely bitter about the carrer he's in.

Most artists usually improve over the years. John Rotima Jr's art has changed tremedously over the years - and very much for the better. But just from the (ugh) Generations covers, he looks like he could still be drawing back in the 70s. Maybe thats a good thing, maybe it's a bad thing. Just doesn't look like my taste in art or story.

Oh - does anybody know whats happening with these JLA issues he's doing with Chris Claremont? If Joe Kelly being bumped off the book, or is their issues just going to be a short stint.

Most of all: does anybody know when this JLA story might start. What issues? I was sort of looking forward to what Joe Kelly had planned for issues coming up to #100 of the JLA. Why the sudden new creative team?

Over here in Britain we've got some pretty good place names too... Beer is pretty good (It's in Devon), Twatt, Pratt's Bottom (once almost divided into Lower Pratt's Bottom and Upper Pratt's Bottom), Westward Ho!, Pie Corner, No Man's Land, Noah's Ark, Nobottle, North Curry... and the favourite of autocensors net-wide: Scunthorpe.

I think that Byrne takes personal offense to Peter way too much. I love both writers and collect their work equally. but I have never seen Peter go out of his way to attack Byrne...but I cant say the same the other way. The problem is that the people who just wanna bash Peter cause Byrne dont like him..thats sad

Peter:

On a related topic, loved the first issue of "Fallen Angel". Won't bother you with a whole bunch of questions right now because I'm sure most of them will be answered in the issues to come.

But there is one inquiry I must voice right now: "Is there/will there be some connection between 'Fallen Angel' and 'Supergirl', or was this belief just a fandom wish/rumor?"

Thanks for the enjoyable reading, and keep up the great work.

Also in North Carolina we have a town called Conetoe. This is strange in itself, but it's pronounced co-neet-a.

Regarding the 'bad blood' between Byrne and PAD (this is only my opinion from my pbservations):

Byrne says there is no bad blood, simply that he thinks PAD makes "bad, bad comics." Obviously, that's not true. He gets to angry at the mere mention of PAD's name for that to be true.

I think Byrne's animosity toward PAD dates back to when he thought PAD had spoiled the ending of Alpha Flight #12 way back when at some convention. Seeing PAD become a big name writer afterwards probably torqued him a LOT.

In my observations, PAD has been put in the position of having to defend himself from false accusations from Byrne over and over. (Byrne accused PAD of not having the title character in SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1, accused him of encouraging the killing of cops, and several other misrepresentations.) Byrne likes to snipe at PAD, and gets angry when PAD posts rebuttals. Because Byrne doesn't like having his words challenged.

Over the years the debates over style between them bubble up every so often, a little nastier every time.

We have beautiful Sugar Tit, South Carolina, home of the annual Bubba Fest. Y'all come on down now, ya hear?

In Illinois not only do we have Normal as was posted earlier, but Gays and Dix which are way too close for anyone's comfort:)

Lest we forget Bald Knob, and Devil's Backbone both in IL, and the classy Cooter, MO.

I'm out:)

In England, there's a town called Ipswich, if you're looking for more weird names from outside the USA.

As a resident of California, I once thought that Placerville, the name of the town in the Homer Price books was a pretty weird name for a town, but it sure made for a good setting for the books!

But there is one inquiry I must voice right now: "Is there/will there be some connection between 'Fallen Angel' and 'Supergirl', or was this belief just a fandom wish/rumor?"

Some of both. The new series had its origins in directions I was planning to take "Supergirl" before I learned the book wouldn't continue past #80. So it evolved from there. Now whether the protagonist is indeed Linda...I leave that to individual readers.

PAD

Pennsylvania definitely has all other states beat with weird place names. In addition to the ones already mentioned like Intercourse, Blue Ball, and Climax we have Bird-in-Hand.

Not to mention Jersey Shore, which is no where near the shore or New Jersey.

Sandy Beach, which has no beach.

Hempfield: Lots of people there have a chronic case of the munchies.

King of Prussia and Dauphin, two towns named not after people, but royal titles.

We also have a peninsula juting into Lake Erie that the French named "Presque Isle," which mean "almost an island."

OK, so someone has already notice teh fact that Climax and Horneytown NC were close to each other, but they forgot to add in the last of that particular triangle (which are really within 20 miles of each other). It goes, Horneytown, High Point, and then Climax, NC. Living near there growing up sometimes was a teenagers demented dream come true.

Well, Bette Noir is a stupid name for Byrne fans, but surely for Byrne fans Basin City(or Sin City) isn't a stupid name, of course, Miller and Byrne are pals, aren't they?

Not implying that this is significant... but it is somewhat amusing:

Weren't Byrne's first few or three issues of Next Men set in a town called "Climax"?

And when the "Fallen Angel" thread was begun on his current board, he was the first one to respond with a terse questioning of why it was there at all. Now I've no idea whether he challenges all off topic threads (although considering the mandate of the board is to discuss the comics field in general, I'm not sure how anything could be considered off topic), but I doubt it.

The current board is a fair bit more civil, mostly because they don't have to deal with the same three trolls clogging the board with crap because they *finally* have a banning function. And having a good bit of experience with the last board, starting a post about your work was usually some troll trying to get Byrne started... which is usually pretty easy when the subject is you.

I'll score him some points on this one by not taking the bait. His comments seemed (at least to me) a statement of annoyance at someone going "let you and he fight"--as based on past experience with such threads.

Trust me, I know what he's like. I'm just saying in this situation he didn't live down to type.

Well, Bette Noir is a stupid name for Byrne fans, but surely for Byrne fans Basin City(or Sin City) isn't a stupid name, of course, Miller and Byrne are pals, aren't they?

Let's not blow it out of proportion, it's *one* fan. The closest anyone came to agreeing with him was when *I* said I thought the name was ok, but could have used a little more thought. No one else expressed an opinion on the matter.

>>Weren't Byrne's first few or three issues of Next Men set in a town called "Climax"?

i can't quite remember now, but his run on Wonder Woman happened on a city called Gateway

Boy, invoke the name of John Byrne and watch the number of posts rise!!

BTW, Steven, if you feel JB's board is so fascist, why do you bother to participate on it?

PAD, don't fret a few posters on JB's board that knock your stuff. There are others like me who enjoy the works of both of you guys.

I thought "Fallen Angel" looked promising, and I ordered a good amount to make certain that customers have a shot at checking the series out.

Matt Hawes

654-B E. Diamond Ave.

Evansville, IN. 47711

Steven, I just reread some of the threads and I realize that it was not actually you that called JB's board "fascist." In that case, I withdraw my remark and say I'm sorry about the confusion. (Heck, this is a lengthy thread!)

Matt Hawes

654-B E. Diamond Ave.

Evansville, IN. 47711

Steven, I just reread some of the threads and I realize that it was not actually you that called JB's board "fascist."

I did sort of go along with the joke.

I don't have a problem with the Board (rather enjoy talking with quite a number of them), although there are a couple of posters that I tend to avoid. And the present board is a much nicer place than the last one. Remove the trolls, and people's defensiveness levels go waaaaay down. Even JB seems to have mellowed quite a bit.

And now for something completely different.

I've been hoping that Fallen Anglel is Peter's new "Buffy" book.

I've been a fan of Peter's work since his great and lenghty run on The Hulk. But somehow Supergirl never got on my buy list, for whatever reason. Recently a local comic shop had packaged several issues together at a great price. I picked it, and I'm sure that store is greatful, since I'm now buying other Supergirl back issues.

I had recently started readin the PAD board and noticed that Peter spent a lot of time writing about the Buffy series. I had never watched any of the shows, and had no interest in it, so I skipped all of those posts. But it made me think...

I had really been enjoying the Supergirl books, and Peter's Captain Marvel series was highly entertaining, as well as Spyboy, and...

Well, if I enjoyed Peter David's stuff and he seemed to be in love with Buffy...I decided this was a show I should check out. So as this hit series was coming to an end, I bought the first season on dvd. Within three episodes, I was hooked and I just finished watching season 3.

So I'm a Buffy convert based on liking Peter's work and thinking that if he's spending so much time writing about it, that there much be something to it.

And as I watched the first few seasons, I know why he liked it. Obviously, the creators of Buffy share a similar writing sensibility as Peter...well-crafted stories, strong female characters, deep supporting cast, an ability to mix serious stories/issues with a sense of humor, frequent pop culture references, interesting villians, an willingness to shake up the status quo if it aids the storytelling, and, frankly, just being damn entertaining.

And he did all of this way before Buffy came on the air. Once again, just check out that Hulk run. No wonder he was drawn to the Buffy series, and I would personally like to thank Peter for turning me onto Buffy, which has provided me with hours and hours of enjoyment.

So, when I first saw the Fallen Angel preview, I didn't think, "Oh, another Buffy rip-off," I thought, "Wow, Peter's new Buffy book!"

If you say that Peter is ripping off Buffy, you may as well say that he is ripping off Martin Scorcese, Quentin Tarentino, Howard Hawkes, Dorothy Parker, Roman Polanski, David Mamet, Rod Serling, Shakespeare, and the guys who wrote Caddyshack (Harold Ramis and Brian-Doyle Murray)...

The same basic stories have been told since the beginning of time; it takes a good story-teller to make you want to hear them again...

-dj

From a french guy:

In french, to be someone's bete noire is to be someone's pet peeve. There are worse names for a town, even in France; try Montcuq for instance (phonetically 'my @$$'). No kidding.

JC

I'll score him some points on this one by not taking the bait. His comments seemed (at least to me) a statement of annoyance at someone going "let you and he fight"--as based on past experience with such threads

Which part of the Newsarama piece was baiting Byrne into a fight?

Frank Cooper: Byrne accused PAD of not having the title character in SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1...

Luigi Novi: ???? Can you elaborate on this, Frank? What do you mean "not having the title character"?

And can someone tell me where the Byrne boards are? Are they the AOL ones that you can only access if you have the AOL browser? I notice that no one has provided a link or url.

Okay, I'll accept there are towns with weird names, but my question is WHY create Bete Noir as a "stand-in" of sorts for New Orleans -- why not just use New Orleans? I had the same problem with St. Roch in Hawkman.

Is there some editorial directive from DC to stick with the fictional city motif?

I doubt there's an "editorial edict." In fact, I imagine that it's simply a matter of the writer(s) experiencing a bit more freedom in world-building with a fictional city. For instance, if PAD needs Bete Noir to have a corrupt, demonic mayor, he can easily do so; if he used, say, New Orleans, even slipping a fictional mayer into office as the corrupt demon, he could potentially face accusations of trying to say that the mayor of New Orleans isn't exactly the best person out there. Likewise, it allows the locale to grow and change as the series progresses.

There clearly isn't a general editorial edict against using real cities: the new Teen Titans series is set in San Francisco. (Using a fictional city also requires less research than a real one...)

Just type in John Byrne Message Board in Yahoo and you will find it within the first two or three responses.

"if you feel JB's board is so fascist, why do you bother to participate on it?"

It's already been pointed out that Steven didn't say that about the board. As the person who *did* say it, I do want to reiterate that not everyone on the board is as horrible as I implied. In fact, as I said in the original post, some of the people I met there were not only intelligent, but extremely polite and fun to talk to.

However, there is an extremely vocal minority on the board (if you count by bodies... if you count by posts they're WAY in the majority) that goes out of its way to be rude and condescending to anyone who doesn't agree with them.

So, I don't participate in the board anymore. Like PAD, I just occasionally visit for laughs. (And because sometimes the people there whom I like have something cool or interesting to say.)

Thanks, Jason. For anyone else who wants the link, it’s:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=248951&messageid=1057818538&lp=1058307215

I went there, and finally got to read it myself. The hypocrisy and distortion there is quite amusing. It is stated on the main page for the boards that it is ”A place For John Byrne Fans to hang out, discuss comics, entertainment, etc., and anything and everything (within reason) to do with Comics Legend John Byrne!” Now I’m not sure if they mean comics, entertainment, etc. in general, AND anything and everything having to do with Byrne, or only comics and entertainment that HAS anything to do with him. Assuming it’s the latter, why is there a thread devoted to The League of Extraordinary Gentleman? Did I miss an issue of that book that Byrne wrote or drew? Did I miss his name in the credits of the movie? But when someone brings up Fallen Angel, he has an “agenda,” and the thread is locked down.

I also notice that Pierre Villeneuve, the poster who originally derided the use of names like Bete Noir and Bludhaven, stated this during the thead:

Pierre Villeneuve: I guess it should come as no surprise from someone who has to start a thread about how many times his name is mentioned in the Hulk enciclopedia.

It would appear that Pierre is not only somewhat close-minded when it comes to creative use of names, but a liar as well. Peter never started a thread about how many times his name was mentioned in the Encyclopedia. It was about how many times VARIOUS creators who have contributed important work to the series over the years were mentioned, of which he was only one, a distinction that Pierre, in his vitriolic zeal, refuses to acknowledge.

I would’ve posted this there, but it appears no further words on the topic are allowed. At least Peter doesn’t devote all his blogs to discussing himself, doesn’t tell everyone to talk about “comics legend Peter David,” and encourages visitors here to talk about sports, Broadway shows, politics, other comics, etc.

"Peter never started a thread about how many times his name was mentioned in the Encyclopedia. It was about how many times VARIOUS creators who have contributed important work to the series over the years were mentioned,"

Interestingly, this was brought up in an earlier thread over there. Someone made the same point you did, Luigi, and Byrne insisted that in spite of that, it was obvious that Peter David was trying to incite his fans to outrage specifically over his (PAD's) lack of representation, and not over that of other creators.

In other words, it wouldn't have done you any good to make the point. Mr. Byrne already has Mr. David's motivations figured out, apparently. It's pretty ridiculous.

One thing in defense of the man, though... that site isn't run by him, but by one of his fans. So it's not his ego, in this case, that has the site referring to him as a "Comics Legend," simply the devotion of a fan. (The fan who runs the site, BTW, is in fact very cool and polite, and his behavior is impeccable from what I've seen. He seems pretty open-minded as well, and I'm guessing that he wouldn't have locked down the "Fallen Angel" thread if Byrne hadn't specifically asked him to.)

Which part of the Newsarama piece was baiting Byrne into a fight?

Frank, you know as well as I do that the simple mention of PAD's name is usually enough to set Byrne off--Byrne doesn't like PAD... at all. Not excusing the behavior, not even trying to explain it, it just is. The mention of PAD's name leads to badness.

You being a prolific John Byrne Message Board troll knows this.

It's already been pointed out that Steven didn't say that about the board.

Matt's statement was fair. I did agree with your statement, even if I was partly joking when I said it. If I can't stand by what I said, then I shouldn't have said it.

The One Name to Rule Them All: TOAD SUCK, ARKANSAS

I was originally going to say: I get the impression that John Byrne locked down the thread because he knew he was being baited and had the maturity not to fall for it.

I was going to say that, but after reading the posts on both boards, my main thought is: Why are people still talking about this? Aren't the two writers involved supposed to be mature adults?

--Daniel M.

Steven: Understood. I was just clarifying why I felt complelled to answer Matt's question, even though it was addressed to you.

Daniel: Well, speaking for myself, I think it's cool when the two writers debate because PAD out-debates Byrne every time. For example, I brought a comment that Byrne made about PAD's dissing "Chapter One" in Captain Marvel just because I knew PAD would say something cool and witty about it.

(Of course, then somebody brought PAD's response back to the Byrne board trying to further enflame things, and I realized that probably what I'd done was not-so-cool. While I enjoy reading the David-Byrne wars, I'd feel like a jerk if I'd managed to help instigate one.)

In any case, I don't think it's a question of maturity. Mature people argue. Mature people enjoy watching debates. Nothing wrong with that.

\\**Which part of the Newsarama piece was baiting Byrne into a fight?

Frank, you know as well as I do that the simple mention of PAD's name is usually enough to set Byrne off--Byrne doesn't like PAD... at all. Not excusing the behavior, not even trying to explain it, it just is. The mention of PAD's name leads to badness.**

You being a prolific John Byrne Message Board troll knows this. \\

I believe you're saying that Byrne wasn't baited into a fight by anyone else, but that his reactions are solely his own and his problem.

BTW, disagreeing is not trolling.

Frank Cooper: Byrne accused PAD of not having the title character in SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1...

Luigi Novi: ???? Can you elaborate on this, Frank? What do you mean "not having the title character"?

And can someone tell me where the Byrne boards are? Are they the AOL ones that you can only access if you have the AOL browser? I notice that no one has provided a link or url.

Regarding S-M 2099 #1: Byrne was doing one of rants about the 'right way' to do comics, and said a proper first issue should establish the character and show him in his costume. He pointed to Spider-Man 2099 # 1 as a perfect example of how NOT to do a first issue, citing as evidence S-M 2099's failure to appear in costume.

Well, Byrne was completely wrong: S-M 2099 did indeed appear in costume in his first issue. PAD pointed this out to Byrne, and may have asked JB for a retraction or apology. JB did not acknowledge the request.

As time passed, JB eventually admitted THAT HE NEVER READ SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1. He said that he flipped through the issue in the comic shop and it SEEMED to him that S-M 2099 didn't appear in costume ENOUGH. Therefore, since that was JB's impression, he was not actually wrong and owed no one an apology.

One thing in defense of the man, though... that site isn't run by him, but by one of his fans. So it's not his ego, in this case, that has the site referring to him as a "Comics Legend," simply the devotion of a fan. (The fan who runs the site, BTW, is in fact very cool and polite, and his behavior is impeccable from what I've seen. He seems pretty open-minded as well, and I'm guessing that he wouldn't have locked down the "Fallen Angel" thread if Byrne hadn't specifically asked him to.)

I wouldn't be so kind about the guy. He has said in the past that the PAD AOL board makes him sick, and he banned Machiavelli for 'being nice.'

To me it's about a persons character. How well do they handle a debate when faced with opinions other than their own?

My first and only run in with Mr. Byrne happened shortly after the debut of PAD's Supergirl. JB had posted on the DC Message Boards that PAD had ruined the character with his changes to what he (JB) had established in Superman. This led to PAD defending his artistic license and JB being a snot. I emailed both gentlemen presenting my case for enjoying what PAD had done...basically outlining why I never cared for the Matrix Supergirl but explaining the merit of the character that JB had created. The short of it was that everyone had an opinion based on their own individual likes and dislikes. I closed by posing the question "How can someone be wrong in a debate about what they like or dislike?" PAD emailed me back stating that I made valid points and that he appreciated my being candid. JB emailed me back saying roughly thank you but you are wrong.

I stopped following JB and quickly began picking up every PAD book I could find even to this day.

Frank Cooper: Regarding S-M 2099 #1: Byrne was doing one of rants about the 'right way' to do comics, and said a proper first issue should establish the character and show him in his costume. He pointed to Spider-Man 2099 # 1 as a perfect example of how NOT to do a first issue, citing as evidence S-M 2099's failure to appear in costume.

Luigi Novi: The problem with this logic is that it implies that there is a predetermined cookie cutter paradigm for doing this, and that if it is done without fulfilling every single trait and aspect of that model, that it fails outright, which is horseshit. It reminds me of the people who dismiss DS9 not on grounds of writing or acting, but because it’s set on a station. Any type of story—first issue of a comic, middle installment of a movie trilogy or final episode of a TV series—rises and falls on the overall manner in which the story is executed—plot, theme, & character, and in the case of comics, the artwork.

Such a judgment about the character being in costume ignores the fact that there are different ways of doing things, and that just because one method doesn’t feature every single familiar staple of an archetype, doesn’t mean it can’t be successful. The idea that Spider-Man 2099 would’ve failed if Miguel hadn’t been in costume is bunk.

Frank Cooper: As time passed, JB eventually admitted THAT HE NEVER READ SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1. He said that he flipped through the issue in the comic shop and it SEEMED to him that S-M 2099 didn't appear in costume ENOUGH. Therefore, since that was JB's impression, he was not actually wrong and owed no one an apology.

Luigi Novi: What a bunch of shit.

Spidey first appears in a big double-page spread on pages 2-3 (appearing in costume before he even appears out of it), and in a total of six pages out of a 22 page comic book. More than a quarter, less than a third. If Byrne really did say this (and I don’t know if he did), then was obviously splitting hairs, trying desperately not to be wrong, changing the original “rule” entirely, and applying a standard he can’t possibly believe in, and probably doesn’t hold other comics to.

Frank Cooper: One thing in defense of the man, though... that site isn't run by him, but by one of his fans. So it's not his ego, in this case, that has the site referring to him as a "Comics Legend," simply the devotion of a fan.

Luigi Novi: Much in the same way that Glenn Hauman runs Peter’s site. But Byrne is responsible for that which he puts his seal of approval on.

JB had posted on the DC Message Boards that PAD had ruined the character with his changes to what he (JB) had established in Superman.

Luigi Novi: Interesting that he has never had any compunction about retconning the work of others himself, as when he ignored the work Kurt Busiek did on Amazing Fantasy 16-18 when he did Spider-Man Chapter One. I wonder if he feels the same way about how his version of Krypton, Jor-El and infant Kal-El’s origin was treated by the current team on Superman a while back.

True Story. when i moved to LA 3 years ago I left my comic I left my comic collection back at the old family homestead in Salem MA.

Six months ago that house was sold and I was told by my family back east that there was no room to bring my comics to the new house. After much pleading, they agreed to save 3 (short) boxes. Out of 21 boxes and 22 years of collecting, here's what I saved: The Marvel run of Star Wars, ROM, Spaceknight (even the Ditko issues), The Simonson Thor run, Hulk (unbroken run from #227 unitl the end of the series),Aquaman, the earlier issues of Supergirl I had left behind, and JOHN BYRNE's complete run on Fantastic Four (still some of the best FF stories out there) and Alpha Flight.

I haven't liked anything John as done in years, but boy, his good stuff was good.

If Byrne and PAD's comics can live to together in harmony in my comic box, why can't Byrne and PAD fans live together in real life?

Pennsylvania's got tons of great town names (the aforementioned Intercourse being one of them, which led to a colleague of mine saying "I prefer Intercourse myself" when discussing town names -- other people who'd missed the beginning then took the conversation in ... other directions), but I'm surprised at one omission:

Massachusetts' tendency to name towns after people. John Forster has a whole song called "Entering Marion" which deals with the whole thing, and it's pretty funny. I'm sure someone else here must've run into it.

TWL

who sees no problem with Bete Noire

Yes! I know "Entering Marion" from one of Dr. Demento's anniversary collections (the 25th?). Funny stuff.

Luigi Novi: The problem with this logic is that it implies that there is a predetermined cookie cutter paradigm for doing this, and that if it is done without fulfilling every single trait and aspect of that model, that it fails outright, which is horseshit. It reminds me of the people who dismiss DS9 not on grounds of writing or acting, but because it’s set on a station. Any type of story—first issue of a comic, middle installment of a movie trilogy or final episode of a TV series—rises and falls on the overall manner in which the story is executed—plot, theme, & character, and in the case of comics, the artwork.

It's a common Byrne trait to spout story-telling 'rules' as he attempts to tear down others' work. I think I remember some rule about how many issues a subplot can be the B story before it MUST be the A story.

Often he doesn't follow his rules, which makes one wonder.

They're at it again. There's a Captain Marvel thread on Pruitt's board which is being suggested as something that shouldn't be posted at all.

I live at 53528 Commonwealth in Seattle. Been up here before?