PeterDavid.net

I enjoyed West Wing last night - though the formula endings were pretty apparent. I wish they would ditch the whole romance thing with Josh though. It's better written, but I just don't like her as a character. In many ways, it was better than the opening episodes dealing with Zoey. I think what you have here is a writing staff that hasn't quite found their way yet, but it seems to be improving.

PAD - one thought on the Angel/Spike going to hell thing. You gotta see it from their perspective.

When Angel got his soul back, he spent the better part of 100 years trying to cope with the things he did while evil. When Spike got his, well, he spent a week in a basement but he was still torn up over his evil acts.

As far as these guys are cocerned, I think, they believe they are responsible for what they did. They obviously feel tremendous guilt over their evil deeds, but they can still remember very clearly what they did while evil, much as you or I might remember what we did when we were younger.

I guess it'd be easy for either of them to say "Wasn't my fault; didn't have a soul." But they can't, not honestly, and I think it's understandable that they personally might think they're riding a one-way ticket to hell, no matter how redemtive they may be.

One reason Angel/Liam and Spike/William are still damned even though it wasn't "them" might be that, in the theology of the Buffyverse, Liam and William performed the actions that led to Angelus and Spike being able to commit their evil deeds -- they were seduced by the promise of power or eternal life or whatever and willingly drank from Darla/Drusilla.

I've also started to suspect that the operating moral principle of the Buffyverse is not guilt but shame, which is much less subject to "but it wasn't me!" arguments...

Discussin "Charmed" would be a good thing, for me.

Cole the Plastic Surgeon... that would be a good laugh.

Discussing "Charmed" would be a good thing, for me.

Cole the Plastic Surgeon... that would be a good laugh.

I find it very amusing that during all the dream sequences (or at least the big one at the beginning) it was full of music by REM. That gave me chuckles all night. And hey, maybe next we can have an episode where they all go into Clark's dreams and find Pete, because really, it's like the Incredible Shrinking Black Kid on that show.

The thing that kept getting me about Spike being a ghost was the whole sitting down, going up stairs, being on the top floors of buildings type thing. The resolution of the episode kind of makes that irritation into something understandable. If all it takes now is concentration to touch something, I'm assuming the sitting, stairclimbing, et al can be explained by "Well, he was doing that unconciously, because everyone expects to be able to sit, stand, etc." Granted, it doesn't account for the whole going through the desk thing before he even knew he was a ghost, but still. And to paraphrase Gunn, damn it feels good to see Spike get his violence on again.

And I'm still waiting for the big Gunn explosion (no pun intended). The white room cat, the legal knowledge. He's going places, they may just not be fun ones.

Don't believe me? What's Drusilla's last name? Harmony's? Darla's?

Harmony's last name is Kendall. It's seen in Buffy's yearbook in the ep "The Harsh Light of Day."

http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/harshlight.shtml

Corey

Smallville:

I still think Lionel is setting Lex up to have him committed.

Chloe seems to be sliding further and further to the point where she will start using the pen-name “Lois Lane” (although sources say Chloe is actually Lois’s cousin but that’s never been confirmed).

I too thought “dream” the moment Jonathan tells Clark he used money from Lex to buy that truck. No way. Even thought he seems to be warming up to Lex, I don’t see him taking Lex’s money (and I thought he accepted Lex’s deed to their farm a bit to easily).

Even though it was a “dream” Lex’s revelation that he knows Clarks secret, and his subsequent reaction to it was a very powerful scene. Lex’s rage at Clark not trusting him with his secret was jolting and I wonder if that will be a foreshadowing of things to come. Methinks that the way Future Lex will keep Future Clark/Superman at bay will not be a kryptonite ring but rather the knowledge of his identity (didn’t both the Green Goblin and Venom use this against Peter Parker/Spider-Man)? It’s almost impossible now for Lex not so read about Superman and not make the connection given the things he has already learned.

Speaking of which, did anyone catch the trailer for next weeks Perry White episode? We see what looks like Clark hurling a tractor into the road in front of Perry. Does this mean yet another character from the Superman mythos is going to witness Clark Kent using super powers? That is going to be pushing things quite a bit.

Angel:

Enjoyed the episode. Some genuinely creepy moments. I have to admit though I am not thrilled with the Casper-Spike angle. I thought this was to be the episode that would make Spike a (pun intended) solid part of the cast. When it then came down to Spike having to “choose” between saving someone and becoming solid I groaned (didn’t Casper do the same thing at the end of the live-action movie?). It looks like Casper-Spike is going to be around for awhile. I hope it doesn’t last long (but then I spent four seasons hoping the damn “chip-in-the-head” bit wouldn’t last. Oh well.

A note about the “good soul damned to Hell thing” That could be explained by remembering that their souls are still sharing their bodies with demons. The demon part would almost certainly be damned no matter how much good the soul did. Of course, maybe Spike and Angel don’t think too hard about the difference and simply refer to the demon/vampire parts of themselves. And they might *believe* their souls are damned to Hell but they don’t *know* it for a fact. Or a simpler explanation: They are just being cynical.

ANGEL:

Peter, I was equally annoyed by the argument that Angel and Spike are hellbound because of what they did while soulless, but I think Chris's post really justifies that stance -- Both Liam and William became vampires willingly (so did Darla, actually). Dru, however, and even Harmony, might be spared.

However, we only got *their* opinions on things. Angel would believe that he's going to wind up damned no matter what, and I think that's an important part of his character. Anyone else like how he's been depicted so far this season? Connor and Cordelia's loss is with him in every scene almost. This is not a guy who's going to experience perfect happiness anything soon. I like this Angel (and I like the "blood in the decanter" thing).

As for Spike, his selfless act in this episode might put him on the path to true redemption. He didn't get his soul for noble reasons (wanted Buffy) and he didn't save the world for noble reasons (wanted to help Buffy). And his treatment of Wood (even continuing to wear his dead mother's jacket) shows that he has a long way to go. No, I think redemption in the Whedonverse is not about *not* doing additional evil but about truly atoning for the evil you commited. Spike hasn't come close to that yet.

SMALLVILLE:

Nice episode. As always, the John Glover scenes are the among the best. The Lex confronting Clark scene was also nice. This is obviously something that Clark fears. Should he confide in Lex? Would it make a difference in what ultimately happens?

> (Sure sign you may be transformed into a vampire: You don't have a last name. Don't believe me? What's Drusilla's last name? Harmony's? Darla's?)

Harmony's, as mentioned, is Kendall, but to balance that out we don't even know Darla's FIRST name (Darla's a vamp-name, like Angelus and Spike. Even Darla couldn't remember her real name when she tried in Darla.)

How about Mr. Trick? A vamp with a last name and no first name.

Corey

WEST WING-

A new episode? How can this be? My TV Guide said it was a rerun, so I didn't tape it. Of course, the previous week I did record it and it *was* a rerun.

I don't know who the morons are who are in charge of the networks, but I hear there us a job opening at Marvel. They'd fit right in.

Smallville:

This episode was a nice breather episode from the past two. The opening dream sequence actually worked well with my daughters. They never suspected. I knew only because Clark's hair was too dry after running out of the lake. I don't care how fast he was, drying his hair and body at superspeed just wasn't an option. Air dry at superspeed wouldn't work either it was too short a run. Clark had to be dreaming and projecting a image of himself for the scene.

As for Lana, it seems to me (I missed last season because I was teaching the night of the show) that the producers are toughing her up. Last week, she condemns those who were affected by the kryptonite only to be faced with the possibility that the person she loves might fall into that catagory. Her reaction was perfect and beleivable. If Clark is the most human person she knows, even if he has been changed by the meteors then what makes the person not human--his or her actions. This week she acts like Clark and rushes to the rescue. (What do they pay for car insurance in Smallville?)

All in all, it wasn't one of their best episodes, but it was enjoyable.

Ever since the teaser for the West Wing episode which just ran, I've been shouting the perfect answer to the asylum problem at my TV (which refuses to listen to me):

CANADA!

No, the U.S. might not be able to offer asylum for eggshell-walking reason, but how the blazes can North Korea get mad at Canada? Invite the staff of the Canadian embassy to the concert, glad-hand people around, and the artist is asking for Canadian asylum. He's invited for tea the next day, and there you go.

Yes? No? Too simplistic?

Corgi

Worshipper at the altar of Sorkin

Yes, Casper did choose to save someone or become solid again, but come on, if there are two comic book icons you just KNOW are going to choose saving someone over personal gain, it's Superman and Casper. And between those two, I'd still have to go with Casper.

Regarding the being-a-vampire-and-thus-not-having-a-soul exclusion: Early on in a Buffy episode, Giles was giving the gang a pep talk about fighting vampires and said something along the lines of, "Remember, they're not your friends anymore. When the demon entered their bodies, their souls were set free." And Angel said, "That's not exactly true...", but his thought was cut-off by a disapproving look from Giles. That throw-away line always intrigued me, but nothing ever came of it, and probably never will. I always thought it sort of meant that the demon just released the worst parts of the persons soul, so that, yes, they would of course feel guilty once reinsouled. Any thoughts from anyone?

So does this mean that Faith is doomed to become a vampire?

I don't know if I'd necessarily agree that Liam/Angel has done "tons more" good than evil. He's been very active for the past eight years, but look at the trajectory of his life during the 20th century: he went from pretending to still be bad but trying not to kill people, to wandering around not caring about anyone, to sitting in alleys eating rats, until Whistler gave him a kick in the butt and he decided to become a superhero. If he shares the guilt for evil he could have prevented, there's a heaping helping of bad on his plate from the time he was traveling with Darla, Spike and Dru (he could probably have caught them off-guard and killed them all if he'd wanted to, but he didn't). He's been working overtime lately to make up for it, but he started at a deficit (and even if it doesn't work that way in a cosmic sense, Angel may well think so, and that may be all that matters...).

ON ANGEL:

Last night's episode was phenomenal, especially with respect to playing out the relationship between Spike and Angel. At the core they are family, and the only two beings who can understand each others' plight. Steve deKnight was my favorite writer on BtVS (Dead Things, Seeing Red), and now on AtS as well.

I'm always intrigued by the idea that saving the world out of love for someone is less "noble" than saving it out of a sense of duty. Angel's road to redemption has involved helping strangers, but becoming or remaining disconnected from those he loves (leaving Buffy, leaving Cordy on the Higher Plane, wiping out Connor's existence and the memories of the FG in the process). Spike's journey involves deep connections to those he loves, often blinding him to the needs of strangers. Their paths have diverged because of different circumstances and personalities, but nowhere is it suggested in the Jossverse that there's only one "true" road to redemption (or that redemption and "nobility" are one and the same).

Now that the characters are both on the same show, written by the same writers with the same sensibilities (BtVS always had a different worldview than AtS, imo), I'm looking forward to seeing their parallel journeys play out with less of the "my vamp is better than your vamp" tug-o-war.

ANGEL:

Spike's problem was that he was either doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (trying to kill Buffy so that Dru could recover in Sunnydale) or the right thing for the wrong reasons (doing whatever Buffy wanted in order to please her). This required no moral compass or any real shift in perspective from him. He was still the same old Spike, just with a different obsession.

Now Spike has the potential to do the right things for the right reasons. We'll see...

PAD-

FYI on Harmony's last name; it's Kendall. As for Darla, that's not her name; the Master gave it to her. She said doesn't remember her name as a human.

Having said that, I agree w/ you on the whole "damned" thing.

I wish they would've resolved the Spike-as-ghost subplot b/c it's wearing thin. Pls, turn him back into flesh and blood, undead or alive. I'm getting sick of it.

WEST WING--Okay, first, let me say: am I the only person who remembers a conversation between Amy and Donna late last season, as Zoey was being tracked down, where Donna proceeds to tell Amy that she entirely doesn't understand Josh, which prompts Amy to ask if Donna loves Josh? See, my point is...that makes Amy a less than sympathetic romantic interest. She suspects that Donna might love or at least be attracted to Josh, and yet she still acts to rekindle the flame? That's nice. I know that Josh and Donna have this really great platonic, almost "Moonlighting" thing going on, and that the writers/producers don't really want to get them together and kill that chemistry, but still, while I like Amy, I don't see her purpose at the present moment. She's staffing the First Lady, but the First Lady is in New Hampshire at the moment, so I think she's a little superfluous. Aside from that, you can really tell the show has lost its spark. While I thought that CJ and Josh were written fairly well last night, Bartlet was, as PAD said, verging on inept. I love these characters, but the show...it just carries an "event-driven" feel now, like Law and Order or ER. What I fell in love with about the show the first and second seasons was its wit, its confronting the issues of the day, and doing so with a great cast of characters. Now, seeing last night's promo, I fear the day we start to see the West Wing promoted with "Ripped from the headlines..." *sigh*

ALIAS is fantastic as always. At first, I didn't like the "new" Sloane and his role on the show, but now I see he's adopting almost the same posture as Lena Olin last season...you never quite know where his alliances lie, and what his ultimate motives are, but he's necessary to the furtherance of the goals of the CIA. Incidentally, I desperately want to see Lena Olin on the show again. She was fantastic, and the thought that she and Jack might have rekindled something in Syd's absence is very intriguing. I also love that Sark is taking prominence. By the way, possible spoiler ahead, so stop reading and skim past if you don't wanna know, but I've heard that Merrin Dungey is coming back as Alison Doren in the coming weeks, so THAT will be interesting.

I watched my first episode of 'Smallville' last night, and enjoyed it for the most part. I didnt watch the first two seasons because it came on opposite '24', which is (IMHO) the best show on TV right now.

Its hard to jump into an arc-based show in its 3rd season and get everything that happens right away (I know this because I tried unsuccessfully to get into B5 around season three, and just couldn't get into it. If I had a computer back then and knew that you wrote 2 eps, I would of made a point of watching them).

I wish I had seen the Metropolis storyline that was brought up several times last night, as it sounded like a doozy. I be waiting for this show to go into syndication.

The actress playing Lana is certainly a hella-hottie.

I don't know if it was ever mentioned on a Buffy or Angel episode or if it was something I read but the Master did have a full name (first, last AND middle).

Can't remember exactly what it was though. Anyone else remember?

i can deal with the hell bound stuff with the idea that you only go to hell if you feel you deserve it (it's probably more complex than that given the various hell dimensions) but remember the gypsy curse was just that a curse. it was designed to inflict guilt and shame, so deep down no matter what angel does he's going to feel guilty. Spike probably feels part of it too but i think even as a vampire he was full of self hatred.

what is potentially intresting with spike is he was always dominated or in thrall to somewoman. his mother, dru, then buffy. this is his first chance to stand on his own. (unless they pair him up with fred)

what is potentially intresting with spike is he was always dominated or in thrall to somewoman. his mother, dru, then buffy. this is his first chance to stand on his own. (unless they pair him up with fred)

Of COURSE he's going to try to pair up with Fred. That's part of his complex...he doesn't want to stand on his own, but wants to hook up to some woman.

Now, whether he realizes that and grows out of it....that's the question...

If I were a vampire in the Buffyverse where crosses actually burned my vampiric flesh and my girlfriend spent some time in Heaven, it might actually have occurred to me over the last hundred years or so that the cross symbolizes a god/God that forgave his own murderers in his/His final moments and that he might just find it possible to forgive me given my actual regret for all of my sins, the fact that I've dedicated my life to redeeming myself, and the extenuating circumstances (having no soul or conscience with the compulsion to do evil) under which the overwhelming majority of my sins were perpetrated.

I'm still pretty unclear on the whole thing about whether or not the souls given to Angel and Spike are their orignal souls or "fresh" souls that have never lived before. I guess it's possible that the souls are recycled or reincarnted from sinners in purgatory or limbo that are seeking redemption themselves.

Side note: In addition to the things about this season of Alias that bug me that I've previously posted, one other one came to mind.

Remember the bad bit with Syd yelling at Vaughn for daring to think she was dead despite mucho evidence and hooking up with someone new? And Syd yelling how'd *she* would've waited despite no evidence?

Hmm, y'know, Syd, your fiance was killed back in the first episode. How dare you have hooked up with Vaughn and not waited for him to have somehow come back to life? :-)

The Master's full name, according to the "Welcome to the Hellmouth" shooting script, is Heinrich Joseph Nest.

Have to agree with Peter and Michael Cravens that the thrill is gone from West Wing. This became apparent to me during the last few episodes from last season. Then they announced that Sorkin was being impeached and it all came together (in my mind, at least). Without Sorkin, WW is just another good show; no longer does it have the magic.

Sure sign you may be transformed into a vampire: You don't have a last name.

Come to think of it, some people say Peter Allen David doesn't have a last name...

Corey

I've scanned through the messages so I hope I'm not repeating something already stated. For my own part, it's always a highlight to have Peter thinking along the same lines as myself (G). After my wife and I watched this week's Angel, I pointed out the very same theological problem with Spike going to Hell even though he wasn't that bad as William (except as a poet) and has been self-sacrificing shortly before and since having a soul. As PAD questioned, is it a new soul or Spike's original soul? If Spike's original soul, it must be along the lines of Buddhist thought of the soul being like water and merely poured into different containers (IE, Spike hasn't redeemed the bad karma he's accumulated). As intelligent as Whedon is, I do find faults in his "demon possesses human body" vampire mythos.

There is one possibility. It's merely Spike's perception of what is occurring to him. Perhaps something else is occurring and he's wrong.

One final comment, why did Spike produce enough weight to make an impression in the couch when he had that little heart to heart with Angel?

Okay, here's my two cents worth for this week:

ALIAS: Can't knock seeing Jennifer Garner in anything sexy, regardless of the story 'logic' behind it. But I still stand by my original opinion that the whole "2 years later" thing is a fake, and that Sydney will wake up either trapped next to or inside the assembled Ribaldi device.

ANGEL: Not sure about the metaphysics (or Fred's 'regular' physics) either. But here's a few questions I have about the overall season/series that as far as I know have not been answered, yet.

1.) The Gypsys 'cursed' Angel with a soul way back when. Who ever said it was his original (Liam's) soul to begin with? And if it is NOT the original, then who's/what's soul does he have now?

2.) Just who mailed the locket back to Wolfram and Hart to begin with? And did they know about Spike being in it, or were they really counting on Angel using it, as theorized in episode 2 of this season?

Food for thought. Take care everyone.

THE WEST WING: I can understand the dilemma the staff faced this week. Historically, I think most U.S. administrations have to weigh the benefits from allowing a defection against the negative backlash from the government the defector is from. In this week's WEST WING they had to face allowing an artist to defect -- very publically, as he was famous and at a highly publicized White House visit -- which would ruin negotiations that could possibly keep North Korea from developing nukes. I agree with C.J., but in reverse: It's disappointing, but I don't disagree with it. What wouldn't the government give up to avert a road that could lead to nuclear war? As for the final collapse of the talks, that at least avoided the "every good deed is rewarded" resolution that could have made it too easy a call.

ANGEL: Didn't see it, but one of the unspoken truisms of intangibility is that people still stand on surfaces. This is usually a given (except for Kitty Pryde, who we're told can walk on the air), as it makes it much easier to film the scenes -- and prevents the characters from just floating off into space or plummeting to the Earth's core.

SMALLVILLE: Knew it was a dream sequence from the very opening. Clark and Lana have been dancing the will they/won't they from the first episode of the series -- heck, when they *were* dating it barely lasted -- and now when they're "just friends" they're skinny dipping? I don't think so. (I also liked how, in his dream, his folks basically did a 180 on responsibility and told Clark to go have fun instead of save someone.) Still, we all got to pretend we saw Lana nekkid!

(BTW, everyone who hasn't read it yet should read Larry Niven's essay "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex." He takes a very scientific, and rather humorous, look at the problems Superman could have with, er, mating. It should be interesting to see if any of his topics come up in SMALLVILLE.)

I'm happy to at last see some folks discussing the possibility that the souls within Angel and Spike might not necessarily be those of Liam and William. I've never really bought that argument that the beings which resouled them were ably to wrench their original spirits out of the afterlife. Everyone just assumes that they've got the original goods, but I think they were given some souls which, for whatever reasons, hadn't gone on to their final rewards. Kind of like putting a new engine in an old car.

But, really, I don't think it's their souls going to hell that they're so worried about. Rather, now that they have a conscience, they realize how horrible hell is, and despite their good works, their demonic spirits will be send back to the netherworld regardless (whereas the souls they now have will, presumably, go to Heaven). Thus, the vampires in them know that they're in for eternal damnation irregardless.

That's my take, anyway.

SMALLVILLE- deliciously twisted extended dream sequence- I knew the plot had to do with dreaming and I kept waiting for the "GASP" Wakeup moment which didn't come... actually started making me wonder about MY OWN perceptions on what was going on...

ANGEL- At least now we know why Spike can walk and sit down on things- subconscious assumptions that he WILL walk and sit down.

As for why his soul is condemned to hell- I recall something one person said on last year's discussion regarding Spike's ensouling- the person asked "Did he get his soul back, or someone else's?" And when Reaper said "You fool, your soul is what's damning you to hell" I thought maybe he got a particularly nasty soul (for a half-second, I thought maybe he actually got the Reaper's soul) Anyway that's just a point to ponder regarding Spike's soul. Same questions about Angel- but I remember the Scooby gang discussing on how to retrieve Angel's soul on Buffy, and in last year's Angelus sequence- they were keen on preserving Angel's soul when it was "hijacked" by Cordy/Jasmine, so it wouldn't disappear in the ether. So at least, Angel has a specific soul.

In any case, it's difficult to remain consistient with mythology that crosses over two TV series and a large number of writers. A single line a writer types up for a single TV episode immediately enters a big Ledger of Canon, and gains mystical quality that is supposed to fit in with all that has gone before and will be writ and spaken henceforthwards... IMHO, the only TV show that ever successfully navigated the briarpatch of Canon was Babylon 5- and even they had to hire a person to maintain the Ledger of Canon (that's Fiona Avery... who's now writing for... ThunderCats? What th-? Okay, I know because I bought the first issue.)

eddie

Oh, one more thing re: ANGEL- when the Haunted Lift dinged and opened up for Spike, did anyone think of 2 seasons? ago when Angel took the elevator down to Hell with Holland? Methinks Spike should avoid elevators for now.

The elelator go down the hoooooooooooooolllleee ;-)

eddie

Re: ANGEL/Buffyverse and re-souled critter's souls -

While it has not been stated that the souls that Angel and Spike have are their originals, it seems likely.

I know there is much of last season that many would like to forget, but it was a significant plot point that, when Angel's soul was removed again, it was stored in a special container, and the loss of that container meant Angel couldn't be resouled.

Seems to imply to me that his soul isn't just *any* soul, but rather a specific one.

Regarding the whole soul thing:

The way I always saw it, was that when a person becomes a vampire, a demon takes over their body and uses the owner's memories and personalities as a base. Furthermore, in the case of Angel and Spike, when they got re-ensouled, the souls became bonded with the demon. So when the demon finally dies, the soul will be damned by association.

As far as Angel thinking he's going to hell, remember this. Last season with the whole Jasmine deal, the crew learned that they all were being manipulated for a very long time, and the prophecies and such were possibly just part of the manipulation and not necessarily true. Angel lost his son, Cordy, and his belief in his own salvation. And due to that extremely well-written verbal exchange between him and Jasmine, It could be that he doubts that he did the right thing in stopping Her. Especially when he's given Wolfram and Hart as a reward for defeating Her. He's compromising his beliefs, and this season, he's a tad less forgiving than he used to be. He still fights the fight, but I think he has given up on the whole redemption thing and just does what comes supernaturally and to hell with it all !!

Angel:

If anyone truly has too much time on their hands, they can go through last seasons Buffy scripts and count the number of times Spike says "I got MY soul back." I don't think he ever said anything like "I got A soul back." Perhaps we can twist the Buddha a bit and say while a soul can fill any vessel, the vessel only takes one soul.

I'm not at all sure about the idea that Spike is full of self hatred. I think the Spike we all know and love thinks that whatever he's doing at any particular moment is pretty damn terrific.

Heck, just because Angel is a gloomy gus and assumes he and Spike are damned doesn't mean it's true. Even Spike being pulled down into hell now and then isn't proof - it could simply be a condition of his... er... condition.

On Spike and Angel's 'ticket to Hell' some thoughts:

-Firstly as some already pointed out, this was only Angel's OPINION. He has no clue about what cosmic justice would be for him. It's his own sense of guilt that makes him see himself as hellbound no matter what. But he went to hell because of the Acathla spell, not some judgment.

-Spike nearly went to hell this ep not for his evil, but because of Pavayne. He said so literally. He'd been feeding souls to hell 'so he could stay out'. And the remark that Spike's soul would damn him to suffering referred for me to the fact that Angelus would have been fine in hell too. Soulless demons would be. But a soul in hell suffers by default.

-The nature of vampirism in Whedonverse has always been an ongoing discovery. I tend to disregard Giles' early remarks since he went purely by Council wisdom. And we learned how up on things they were sometimes. That there is difference in humanity between vampires was established with the 'Judge' story in Season 2. I have to agree with the person who said that the demonic infection brings out a person's capacity for evil. That also explains why there are differences. And why Angel feels so guilty, knowing his evil side is legendary even among vamps.

I enjoyed Hellbound and hope to see more of Spike and Angel's interacting. And some flashbacks maybe.

Is there any deaper meaning in that Reaper constantly referred to Spike's VAMPIRE SOUL. Is that different from a Human Soul? :)

Peter, do you watch Joan of Arcadia or 24? I'd be interested in your thoughts on those shows as well (once 24 starts again).

Smallville and Angel still grabbing me much for the reasons people have been listing the last few weeks, Alias kinda lost me somewhere in the first season.

The interesting thing about Charmed is that it is the second and third seasons in re-runs that grabbed me, last couple seasons were mixed in quality, and this season isn't grabbing me at all. So if you're regularlly watching Charmed, and it gets better, or they ask you to write an episode, I wanna know. Otherwise I'm watching "Carnivale" on HBO.

Last season with the whole Jasmine deal, the crew learned that they all were being manipulated for a very long time, and the prophecies and such were possibly just part of the manipulation and not necessarily true. originally posted by Big D

Well, as far as fake prophecies go, didn't the one that turned Wes to the dark side say something about the father killing the child...and isn't that what ultimately happened?

Rob R.

Smallville:

Good episode, but where the hell is Pete?? Is that all the writers can think for him to do anymore? Tell Clark in a dream that he missed a history test?

Angel:

I've always felt that Liam/Angel's soul should not bear the guilt for the things done when Angelus was incontrol of the body. As for whose soul it is, I think last season made it clear that they needed Angel's soul and not any old soul plucked from heaven in order to stop Angelus.

Spike is a little different. I think deep down, William the momma's boy really wanted to break out of all of society's conventions but couldn't, so even with his soul back, he still secretly enjoyed letting his bad self run around for 100 years. Poets tend to be self-absorbed anyway, right? :)

What really bothers me is having Angel conclude that the prophecy was bogus is another signal that Whedon has abandoned the whole concept that Angel had been chosen by the Powers That Be to be their champion. With Cordy spending most of last season in another dimension, under the control of Jasmine, or in a coma, we had a year where Angel was cut off from the PTB. Now, he's running an evil law firm with full knowledge that the senior partners are still trying to manipulate events behind the scenes. But is seems like the mystical good guys are no where to be found. You'd think they'd put up a fight to keep their champion under their control.

Well, as far as fake prophecies go, didn't the one that turned Wes to the dark side say something about the father killing the child...and isn't that what ultimately happened?

Yes, even though Angel made a deal to bring him back with a second chance at life. Also, I think the fire from the sky and the idea of Jasmine's blood breaking people out of her spell were two of the signs (earthquake, fire, blood) that the Hamburger warned Wesley about. Wes just jumped the gun when the fire broke out in the hotel after the earthquake and Angel cut himself.

ANGEL: I think there's no actual reason to believe that Spike and Angel are definitely headed for hell without passing go and collecting $200. Just because Angel blieves it and just because Reaper taunted Spike with it doesn't mean it's true.

It's entirely possible that the only reason Angel's soul went to hell in BtVS season 2 was the timing of Willow's spell. It looks like the only reason Spike was being sucked into hell was because he was being pushed by

Reaper.

There's also no real reason to believe that Shanshu is a false prophecy just becuase Angel's lost faith in prophecies. It's entirely

possible that Spike has *already* shanshued and his continued spectral existence was the result instead of the long assumed reward of humanity.

Again it's possible that Angel was cast out of hell in BtVS season 3

*because* his soul didn't truly belong there. Everyone talks about

Buffy having killed Angel, but we both know that's not what happened. You can't

kill a vampire by stabbing him with a sword and just because you're in hell doesn't mean you died (undied?) to get there. In the Whedonverse hell is

simply another dimension (well, lots of other dimensions INCLUDING ours if we're to believe Holland Manners) and the reason Angel went there was because he got sucked into the vortex created by Acathla. Spike may still

be around for the same reason. There's no fair way to judge him so

he's been given another chance to prove where exactly he belongs after his final judgement. Kind of a Whedonesque Purgatory.

I've been watching ME shows for 11+ seasons and the one thing I've

learned is never believe

something simply because a character said it unless it's said by either Spike, Anya or Cordelia. They have (had) a higher percentage of being

correct simply because the writers often use them as the "teller of

unpopular truths" and even they are often wrong when their statements aren't unpopular and quickly dismissed. After all, tact is simply not saying true stuff.

Assume nothing, question everything everyone says because the ME writers always leave us enough room to do so. Everything can, and will, turn on a dime in a single moment and it will several times before the season is over. It's one of the things that makes ME such a great production company.

Angel and Spike each have their original souls. That's always been very clear to me. In the Buffy Episode "Angel" Angel tells Buffy that gypsies "gave me back my soul." The key phrase is "my soul." If it had been just any old thing from Souls R Us, he'd have said, "a soul."

Similarly, when Spike got his soul back, the demon that restored it said, "we will return your soul." Again, "your soul", not a soul.

So, Angel and Spike have the souls of Liam and William, respectively.

Speaking of the curse, I always thought it punished the wrong person, namely Liam/Angel. The vampire Angelus commits these horrible crimes, but it's the restored soul of the human Liam, which wasn't even there, who bears the brunt of the punishment. Yeah, that makes sense. "Let's punish the human soul that was off in another dimension when these crimes were being committed."

Rick

Regarding damnation of vampires, one thing to also note is that Darla seemed to ultimately become an angel of some sort. Remember her trying to convince Connor not to sacrifice that woman in order to force Cordy to give birth?

Here's a question: Who do you think pays a higher premium for auto insurance: Residents of Smallvile or Hazard County?

Angel:

I thought the exact same thing when I saw the episode. I had never really thought about it before, but Angel did not spend a century being evil. That was Angelus, the demon who took up residence in Liam's body. Angel is Liam's soul returned to his body with the full knowledge and experience of Angelus. And so Angel feels the guilt of Angelus's crimes. But truthfully, none of that is Angel's fault. In the end, it's more than possible that Angel will go to Heaven when he dies as he isn't guilty of anything. Of course, that doesn't mean Angel realizes that.

Spike's in a similar position, but he really hasn't been trying to do good, except as a way into Buffy's pants. Only now is he really trying to do good because it's the right thing to do.

I remember in early Buffy they made a specific point of establishing that prophecies were true and immutable. Believe in them or not, they will come true (i.e. Prophecy Girl). Have we ever seen a prophecy that did not come true?

"Here's a question: Who do you think pays a higher premium for auto insurance: Residents of Smallvile or Hazard County?"

Hazard County. Clark doesn't rip open/flip over a car every episode, but not a show goes by in Hazard County when them darn Duke boys aren't drivin' around town at 115 m.p.h.

<<<>>>

Yeah, those Gypsies were not the nicest of people. Still, they weren't really in it for just punishment, much less redemption. They wanted vengeance. And they did get it. Plus, it's not like Angelus has enjoyed the return of Liam's soul.

Re: Smallville -- I enjoyed this week's episode tremendously. And I wouldn't object at all if Sara were a recurring character, still possessed of some sort of dream-walking power. Clark might be drawn to a girl who has special abilities, which would throw a monkey wrench into the whole Betty/Veronica dynamic we've seen.

Re: Angel -- My favorite bit in this episode was the one where Fred starts going on about how cute Spike is, about his cheeks, and then says, "Of course I know he's playing me. I'm not an idiot."

Den,

I think what Rob R. was saying about the father killing the child was to point out that Conner killed Jasmine who was his own child.

Angel: So...it's Spike still going to do that "fading out" thing? Or was that all caused by the Reaper?

Angel:

I'm confused by the Buffy killing comment. What human did Buffy kill? She's a vampire and demon slayer. As far as I remember, that's what she's killed and they are evil so why wouldn't she go to heaven? That argument doesn't make sense to me.

As to the insurance rate thing. I'm sure Boss Hogg had all the local insurance companies in his pocket just like everything else. Being who he was, it's a dead certainty that BH was rooking the populace. So all you have to do is ask who's more evil about insurance: Boss Hogg or modern day insurance companies?

Or we could just ask Johnathon Kent. I hear lived in Hazard for a while after his dad died and he went to live with his uncle. Given what a hellraiser he was there, I can see why Martha's dad didn't want him to marry her.

Angel:

tsk..tsk. In the 1st season of Angel, we see him immediately filled with 'his' soul after Darla brings him a gypsy girl to feed on. His remorse repulses Darla and he's off to Brooding-land until he discovers he's meant to go find Buff at the Hellmoouth.

The guilt and confusion keeps him reeling for years.

The Jossverse indicates demons control human souls to make vampires, so perhaps human souls

are trying to regain control of a demon, hence the long time involved in redemption, and the reason they can still 'become' vamps.

However, what ticks me off is the way no one addresses the Amulet Spike used or where it came from.

That could answer many questions, which, i suppose, is why the writers are waiting to deal with it.

<>

Considering that Kristen Kreuk has the physique of a 12-year-old girl, that wasn't especially thrilling...

I think Westwing may have jumped the shark with this episode. The missing presence of Sorkin was palpable.

What was one of the most smartly written show on network became just plain dumb.

If I and other audience members could think of a dozen ways to solve the defection crisis then so should the characters. (Maybe they are trying to get things closer to intelligence level the current administration?)

Why was C.J. invloved at all, she is the Press Secretary and doesn't have the security clearance. Yeah she was in the room but should have been kept out of the other meetings. Were they just trying to give Alison Janney something to do?

The bit with the speech was pathetic. As soon as they started typing in the "funny speech" you knew something embarassing was going to happen. Toby should be to smart to let anything like that get onto a white house computer.

If this is the Sorken-less West Wing I can't see it lasting another season, emmy or no emmy.

Totally OT, I know, but the "Q&A" thread is locked and I just have to say, Peter, we're all dying for you to get to Gwen!'s question.

Heck, we're all dying to know ourselves!

Hmmm...It makes sense now. Jonathon Kent didn't get upset at Clark posing as Kal and causing trouble in Metropolis this summer because of those years he (Jonathon) spent in Hazzard county as "Bo Duke". I wonder how long before Jon's faux brother "Luke" shows up? (I may have the Duke boy's names reversed, if so forgive me) :^)

I think what Rob R. was saying about the father killing the child was to point out that Conner killed Jasmine who was his own child.

But wasn't the exact translation that Wesley worked out: "And the father shall kill the SON?" Not "child", but "son?"

Everyone tends to view Angelus as separate from Angel, which probably helped keep him alive when he got his soul back (otherwise, he should have answered for killing Jennie Calendar).

The demon is informed by the person it killed. Harmony is a marginal threat because her human self was a moron. The potential for Angelus was inside Liam all the time and without a soul... bam.

Slaughtering his own family and saving his father for last... well, a part of Liam wanted that.

Willow, on the other hand, needs to be in prison.. right now.

Why does Willow need to be in prison? She was completely justified in flaying Warren...

I have to agree with the nay-sayers

about West Wing. If the crew from

WKRP in Cincinatti could pull off

a successful defection, it should

have been a five-minute background

thread in a WW episode.

It's obvious that they know classic

sit-coms. The whole bogus speech

thing was lifted from an ep of

Dick Van Dyke.

And yes, please explain to the

guy from ER that low lighting works

there because doctors don't want

to be identified. That's why they

wear the masks. I want to be able

to see West Wing. And let's also

eliminate the close-ups of the

posts.

Peter, I appreciate your occasional

offering of a thread to ask

questions. Did you hear my scream

the other night as I was getting

ready to post mine, and found that

you'd just cut me off?

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Smallville's "Slumber" was a rip of

BtVS - Episode 10: Nightmares

Season: Episode 10 of Season 1

Original Air
DATE: 05/12/1997

Written by: David Greenwalt

Directed by: Bruce Seth Green

Notes:A boy in a coma (Billy) brings everyone's nightmares to reality. Plot Highlights:Buffy has Master dreams. Willow asks about Buffy's dad. Master on the power of fear. Nightmares start intruding: spiders come out of Wendell's book, Buffy fails a history test, Laura gets attacked, Xander in his underwear, Giles can't read, Hank blames Buffy for the divorce, Cordy is on the chess team, Willow has the lead in Madame Butterfly, Xander is attacked by a clown, Buffy is vamped by the Master. Buffy fights the Ugly Man & Billy unmasks him, ending the nightmares. Xander admits still being attracted to vampireBuffy.

Unmasking the Ugly Manfrom Nightmares (Season 1)

GILES: Billy! Uh, Billy, you have to wake up.

Billy: No. I told her. I have to hide.

GILES: Why? From what?

BUFFY: (seeing Ugly Man) From him!

XANDER: Aw, man, what do we do?

BUFFY: I think I know.

WILLOW: Whatever it is, it better be soon!

BUFFY: Glad you showed up! You see, I'm having a really bad day.

Ugly Man: Lucky nineteen!

BUFFY: Scary! I'll tell you something, though. There are a lot scarier things than you. And I'm one of them.

(she attacks him, wins)

Billy: I-is he dead?

BUFFY: Come here, Billy.

Billy: I, I don't...

BUFFY: You have to do the rest.

WILLOW: What are they doing?

XANDER: I get it.

BUFFY: No more hiding.

(Billy peels back Ugly Man's face and a bright light streams out. In the next instant everything is back to normal.)

XANDER: Hey, he's waking up!

Billy: I had the strangest dream. And you were in it, and you... Who are you people?

GILES: Let's get a doctor.

Coach: Oh! Huh. Billy's got company. I-I-I'm his kiddie league coach. I come by here every day, just hoping against hope that he's gonna wake up soon. He's, uh, my lucky nineteen. So, um, how is he?

BUFFY: He's awake.

Coach: What?

BUFFY: You blamed him for losing the game. So you caught up with him afterwards, didn't you?

Coach: What are you talking about?

Billy: You said that it was my fault that we lost.

(The coach realizes he's been found out and tries to get away. Xander grabs him by the jacket and stops him.)

Billy: It wasn't my fault. There's eight other players on the team. You know that.

BUFFY: (to Billy) Nice going!

The Smallvile script was practically just a rewrite. Sigh.

However, Smallville's Ugly Man - The Traveller was cool looking...

I'm confused by the Buffy killing comment. What human did Buffy kill? She's a vampire and demon slayer. As far as I remember, that's what she's killed and they are evil so why wouldn't she go to heaven? That argument doesn't make sense to me.

She capped several of the Knights of Byzantium. They were human. Granted, they were attacking, but they were only attacking her because she stood between them and Dawn. If she'd stepped aside, they wouldn't have bothered her. Furthermore, it could be argued that they were fighting to save the world by eliminating an instrument of evil (the Key) and she was standing in the way of that, making her--by their interpretation--evil.

It seems to me the whole idea of Angel and Spike getting generic or other souls returned to them is overanalysizing the situation and is a bit silly. The soul (if you believe in such things) is also the specific personality of the individual, not an interchangable part that can simply be put into any body with the same results, such as can sometimes be done with a kidney or other organ. It is what makes the person who they are, not simply a spiritual "battery."

It's like when Faith changed bodies with Buffy. If, for instance, Buffy's body had been killed, it would have been Faith's soul that was released, not Buffy's. So it seems fairly obvious to me that for Angel/Liam to be walking around AS Angel/Liam, then that is the soul he has. Otherwise, he would "be" someone else. Or am I being too simplistic?

I was slightly disappointed that, when Darla got re-vamped, they didn't address the issue of whether she got the same demon back; it would have settled a lot of open questions about the Buffyverse's cosmology.

As far as whether Angel and Spike have the same souls they did as humans: The relevance of that question depends a lot on what having the soul actually means. In relation to this week's episode, does it count as a spiritual scorecard where good and evil deeds are marked down? Or is it just that they regained their consciences? (Which seems to be the key element to being en-souled, or at least the most obvious one.) (I've always sort of suspected that when the gypsies re-souled Angel, they gave him a double scoop of conscience--after all, the point was to make him suffer, and Liam doesn't seem to have been the most introspective person in life.)

"If Spike's original soul, it must be along the lines of Buddhist thought of the soul being like water and merely poured into different containers (IE, Spike hasn't redeemed the bad karma he's accumulated). As intelligent as Whedon is, I do find faults in his "demon possesses human body" vampire mythos."

Quoting from a comment above, if this is the case, then some of Angel's current (and past) decisions with his soul may be due to the state of his soul before he lost it (the very FIRST time, I mean, come on...how many freaking times has he lost it now??). Look at how Liam behaved--drinking, out all night, the women..well, we know where that went. Is it just a neverending cycle? IF that is the reality, than perhaps he is doomed to hell. Why then before he was a vampire, with a soul, did Angel not realize what he was doing was wrong? Because having a soul and having a conscience are two different things. I think in the Jossverse being "ensouled" may give you the ability to see right and wrong, but the conscience reminds us of what we have done. We never talk about vampires losing their conscience (probably linked to the soul), but I think there is a difference between the two. Knowing right and wrong are one thing..acting on what you know is another.

Wha? Willow was justified in killing a man who killed her girlfriend? Even when she had him captured with no hope of escaping? Since when is she judge, jury, and executioner?

And she tried to kill people whose only involvement in Tara's murder was being his friends at the time.

So why pick on Willow and not Giles? He acted as judge, jury and executioner to Ben at the end of season 5, after all.

Everyone tends to view Angelus as separate from Angel, which probably helped keep him alive when he got his soul back (otherwise, he should have answered for killing Jennie Calendar).

Actually, Angel DID answer for killing Jennie Calendar. Buffy killed him in their big fight and sent him to hell remember? TPTB brought him back.

Buffy did not kill Angel. You can't kill a vampire by stabbing him in the heart (decapitation, fire, or staking -- that's it). She sent him to hell, but he was "alive" while there. How he got out was never explained. The First Evil claimed credit for it.

<>

Couldn't agree more -- you saw that coming all the way down the road. Bill isn't that stupid, Toby isn't that stupid, and Bartlett would have chewed their asses if that HAD happened.

The last three episodes were turbulence, but now the show has assumed the crash position.

An anonymous poster wrote:

Considering that Kristen Kreuk has the physique of a 12-year-old girl, that wasn't especially thrilling...

If it had been Allison Mack in that scene, I probably wouldn't be alive to post this right now.

I'll repeat: I'd really love to see Sara stick around. It would open up a whole new can of worms if Clark suddenly had someone he could confide in fully. Especially a cute female who's got a major crush on him.

Wha? Willow was justified in killing a man who killed her girlfriend? Even when she had him captured with no hope of escaping? Since when is she judge, jury, and executioner?

If you're consistent in this, it raises interesting questions about whose crimes Angel would be paying for if he is indeed destined for hell. (Personally I think he's wrong about that, but for the sake of argument ...)

After getting his soul back Angel spent years continuing to kill and drink the blood of humans (thieves and scoundrels, granted, but if vengeance against a murderer isn't justified neither is killing a thief). Also after getting his soul, Angel allowed Dru and Darla to feed from a roomful of W&H types. None of this involved self-defense.

If that type of behavior is verboten in the Jossverse, then souled Angel wouldn't necessarily be paying for his pre-soul actions; he has enough post-soul crimes to account for.

I enjoyed Angel, was up and down about West Wing, and only saw parts of Smallville. I was a little surprised at the overall darkness of this Angel ep; one of the things The WB seemed to want from Angel, if renewed, was a "lighter" show. In fact, when the werewolf ep ended with that "hangin' and ordering take out" scene, I thought "Well, that might be a concession to the WB". I mean, it was nice that they did get to just relax, but often on a Whedon show, a typical-on-other-shows happy ending will get punctuated by a darker touch in the final seconds. ("When She Was Bad" is the example which immediately springs to mind. Buffy, Xander, and Willow chatting in class, their conversation fading beneath the rising soundtrack. Conventional TV show ending. Abruptly, the scene shifts back to the Factory, as the Annoy -er, Annointed - One comes out of hiding, and, seeing the Master's shattered bones, says "I hate that girl!") But, maybe the non-twisty ending to the werewolf ep helped pave the way for the "ghosts of the damned" show. "See, we may have this one dark episode, but look - happy, relaxed people chilling out here! And the week after the dark episode - Halloween party! Fun!"

As far as Willow goes - yeah, she murdered Warren. But my reaction to "She should be in jail. Now," was "Why?" It is certainly a gray area - she shouldn't have been "judge, jury, and executioner". But, she was out of her mind in her grief, and under the influence of very dark magics on top of that. And, it's not like there's any body for the police to find, to charge her with anything; if she turned herself in, I don't know if even Gunn would have knowledge of laws applicable to these circumstances. (Though, actually, if anybody would ....) And - Warren killed Tara! Is there anybody out there who doesn't hate that (bleep) and feels all that badly about what happened to him? (While being happy for Adam Busch that he did get several opprotunities to appear in Season Seven.)

Now, Giles' killing .... As I believe someone pointed out in a previous thread (can't recall exactly who or where), he never really does seem to have paid any consequences for smothering not-that-innocent-by-the-end Ben. ...At least, not that we've seen. Maybe something has happened to Giles, externally and/or internally - and that would explain why he seemed so off at times last season? (Something should.) Maybe we'll learn something about this (eventually, here in America) if "Ripper" ever does get going - or maybe if everyone's favorite ass-kicking ex-librarian shows up on Angel sometime?

Is it just me or does Angel seem to be slowly, but surely slipping to the dark side?

"No Mercy" speech in ep. 1. Now he's locking this ep's villain in a tomb, buried alive. Seems like W&H is slowly affecting him. Not that this is a bad thing. Angel seems more niteresting when he's evil (or even slightly evil).

Oh, and when Angel tells Wesley that there should be a few ghosts around, do they not remember that EVERYONE at W&H was killed last season? Most of them in the building.

Good shows this week. I knew Smallville was a dream. Actually, when it ddin't end at the teaser, I thought perhaps the whole ep. would be one long dream adventure.

Love Alias for the twists as always. I kinda miss the big cliffhanger endings this season, although this week's ending was more like old times.

Bobby

Bobby Nash

Writer @ Large

Den - Jasmine WAS the PTB. She was the one who arranged everything from the visions Cordy got to the exact battles Angel ended up fighting. Remember Skip's final exposition? Jasmine made sure the whole gang got together and that Connor existed. She was manipulating all of them to make sure she could be born and create "World Peace", her ends justifying the means. Even Wolfram & Hart were her puppets directly or indirectly, given that they were deeply interested in making him "dark" not dead (And huzzah, huzzah, they've succeeded. That's where the show is going - not exactly a stunning turnaround given Angel's character).

Considering how the Jasmine situation worked out, I doubt any powerful goody-good types will be showing up for a chat anytime soon.

You know, I never bought Skip's "We've been manipulating you suckers all your lives" speech and I think Gunn's pep talk to Fred afterwards was meant to show that they still had control of there own destinies. Jasmine and Skip just took advantage of Cordy's condition to further their plan.

I'm sticking with my theory that the PRB and the senior partners are one and the same.

Den - You're entitled to your opinion, Skip being evil and all. And you could take Gunn's ramblings about free will vs. predestination as canon instead of a meager attempt to justify living in a world where prophecies come true and higher beings can screw around with you.

But come on: "Took advantage of Cordy's condition"? Which "condition" would that be? Cordy's ascension to a higher being which they caused? The return of Cordy to Earth which they caused? Cordy becoming the vessel of Jasmine's birth which they caused?

Which of these utterly random conditions did the whimsical demigoddess who hadn't been planning this out for centuries (oh wait, she did and said as much) just happen to luck into? I'm curious.

As for the Powers That Be (assuming that's who you meant by PRB) being the Senior Partners, um, wouldn't that make them, well, evil? Or at the very least, deeply ambivalent? Which would mean there's never been a truly helpful mystical force for good on Angel. Ever. So you can't really complain about one not showing up to help guide and protect Angel.

If I've misinterpreted your points, feel free to correct me. Conspiracy theories are always fun.

Okay about the fact that Spike's "good" deeds were motivated by love and not a sense of duty...well hello? What about Xander and Willow? It seems to me that no one told them that they has a sacred duty and had to save people. They got into the whole superhero gig out of their love for Buffy. When Anya tries to get Xander to leave town with her at the end of s3, he refuses because he doesn't want to abandon his friends. And we all know Angel didn't start in on his whole hero gig before falling for Buffy.

Even Buffy herself is largely driven on by love. Love for her friends spurs her on in the first three seasons, and love for her sister provokes some decidedly un-hero like sentiments in s5. So I think Spike's reasoning (love) is quite valid and capable of making him a very good person.

And hey, give him a little credit here. He may be working his charms to the max for some self-preservation, but he isn't trying to get with Fred. (His relationship with her reminds me of how he used to be with Willow in s4, which makes sense, as Fred is more or less a straight Willow.)

I doubt that Buffy patrols everyday to keep the streets safe for everybody, she does it to keep the streets safe for the people she loves.

To be honest, I think we're thinking about this too hard. Remember, the Hellmouth was merely a plot device to make sure BtVS had something to play with for some years and the writers wouldn't have to work at it too hard as they could always claim Hellmouth. It's Liam's soul in Angel and William's soul in Spike until we're told otherwise. There may be some questions of how and why among those who are of the more traditional religious bent, but it's just a damned television show. Somehow multiple hell dimensions and the re-ensouling of a vampire don't bother your theology yet re-ensouling a vampire with the soul of his mortal days does?

I think we don't know all there is to know yet about what happens to a mortal when he or she goes vampire. There's what Giles the Watcher thinks he knows and what depressed Angel thinks he knows, but we have not yet had the omnicient third person voice to tell us what's what. All of the guesses made are pure speculation as we don't have all of the "facts" of the false reality presented to us. They're obviously playing with the traditional vampire mythos, so we're left in the dark as to the truth behind the souls of vampires.

Isn't it entirely possible that the soul of a vampire is in a limbo until the vampire dies and is then punished for the vampire's actions? That the soul can be brought back from this limbo to return to the vampire's body? That the soul doesn't actually leave at all but is repressed by the demon? That the demon is merely an aspect all humans carry within them that vampires are playing out? There could be so many answers. We don't know, so it's best not to worry about it too much and accept that that's the soul of Liam the Drunken Wastrel and the soul of William the Bloody Awful Poet and have done. Besides which, wouldn't having a completely different person's soul change their personality radically? As far as I can tell, Angel and Spike are merely Liam and William with a lot of nasty experience and age under their belts.

AS FOR WEST WING, I gave up on that show as soon as the writers started putting cliches in the witty mouths of Toby and Josh instead of bothering to write as the characters have been established to speak in the past few years. The two-part season opener was decidedly disapointing and badly written. The whole joy of the show was in the strength of the writing and how the performers brought that good writing to life. I feel very sorry for the actors having to perform such badly written sludge after having the joy of acting a Sorkin script. Whatever you may think of his personal politics, he was a darned good screenwriter. Without his writing, there is no WEST WING, just another badly written hour-long drama I won't be watching.

SMALLVILLE:

You know, if you're going to do the whole corporate synergy things that Smallville gets stuck with each week in promoting new and forgettable bands (well, most of them), at least once in a while you get the juicy steak of R.E.M. songs, used in...interesting ways. Especially the use of "Everybody Hurts" during Lana's "I'll wait" speech.

On the other hand, who missed the chance to toss "Night Swimming" into the skinny-dipping scene?

But wasn't the exact translation that Wesley worked out: "And the father shall kill the SON?" Not "child", but "son?"

What if he mistranslated "grandson," which is what Spike is to Angel?

You know, if you're going to do the whole corporate synergy things that Smallville gets stuck with each week in promoting new and forgettable bands (well, most of them),

Hey, at least it's got a noble history. Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies were created to promote Warner Brothers' music-publishing wing, after all.

Every once in a while, there's a reference to Spike trying to get his soul retunred.IIRC, when Spike ran off to the shaman or whoever, didn't he just ask to be restored to what he was before (as in before he got the chip implanted), rather than specifically asking for his soul back? When the shaman/mystic said he was returning Spike's soul to him after going through the rituals, it seemed like it was supposed to be as much a surprise to Spike (one of those "be careful what you wish for" things) as to the audience. Just what I recall.

But come on: "Took advantage of Cordy's condition"? Which "condition" would that be?

Her condition as "vision girl." As for the PTB and the senior partners being one and the same, yes that does make them more ambivalent or at least playing a larger game than anyone has seen so far.

It was always clear to me that Spike went to get his soul restored. "So you give me what I want. Make me what I was, so Buffy can get what she deserves," he said to the demon - without anger in his voice, calling her "Buffy", not "the Slayer". They had attempted to make the viewers question what Spike was doing in the previous couple of episodes - when he said something like "Give the bitch what's coming to her," all I thought was "Okay, the writers are cheating now, to try to create some doubt." And everything he says at the close of "Beneath You" (without rewinding it for exact quotes - already did that for the "Grave" quote, can't spend all afternoon on this) - "I did it for the girl ... to be the man, the man she deserves, the one who wouldn't ..." He was traumatized by his attempted rape of Buffy [incidentally, it sounds as though James Marsters was a bit, too, by the filming of it, from what he's said subsequently], and realized he had to change. His "Why didn't I?" - and I suppose the "bitch" stuff, too - was the demon trying to assert its evil, soulless tendencies - "this is how I should be" - but that was about all it could do in the face of the man Spike had become.

The man who had grown enough by the end of season five to tell Buffy "I know you never loved me. I know I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man, and that's ...," and who pledged to protect Dawn "Until the end of the world. Even if that's tonight." (Don't need to get out the tapes to remember quotes from "The Gift".) The Spike who collapsed in grief upon seeing Buffy's lifeless body. The Spike who helped the Scoobies and protected Dawn for months after Buffy had died. The Spike who "saved" Buffy every night she was gone. Who really did save her life at the end of "Once More, With Feeling". Soulless Spike became far more noble than soulless Angel appears capable of ever being - maybe because his was a more noble soul when he was alive? (Soulful Angel is obviuosly extremely noble; but that's a consequence of his guilt about what he did after he died.) What that might say about the vampires' souls, if true ... well, that's part of another on-going conversation. Spike did attempt to "make (Buffy) feel it" - and felt terrible immediately after - because of the demon still within him. But, as reflected in the "Walk Through The Fire" number in "Once More, With Feeling" - "I hope she fries/I'm free if that bitch dies/I'd better help her out" - the impulses of the demon were quickly overridden by the man Spike had become. Even when vampiric Spike thought his chip had stopped working and he tried to attack that woman in an alley - he was obviously trying to talk himself into it. "This is what I've wanted all this time; this is what I should be." His assault on Buffy horrified him. He saw that the demon within him was too much of a threat; he had to make sure nothing like that ever happened again. (Leaving the coat behind symbolizing this.) He had to become the man that could never do something like that. He had to completely subsume the demon by regaining his soul. Red-herring throwaway lines aside, it was the only thing Spike would have done. The other possibility would have been impossibly contradictory to

all of the character progression of the past several years.

Besides - Joss Wheden is on record on this subject. Asked at "a special event to promote (BtVS) to the TV Academy," "Did the character actually intend to get the chip taken out of his head, as we were led to believe?' Joss replied, "'No. But you were meant to believe that he was.'" [Buffy the Vampire Slayer magazine, vol. 5 #5, Dec. 2002, page 14].

On the whole soul issue:

"Spin the Bottle", a Whedon episode and therefore Canon with a capital C, made it abundantly clear that the soul within Angel is Liam. When Willow breaks the Muo-Ping in "Release", she clearly states that the point is to break the jar and release the soul into the ether so she can then perform the ritual with the Orb of Thessala to put it back in Angel. As is mentioned above, the Creature in "Grave" says to Spike that he is giving him "YOUR soul". Human Darla had a soul, and she had the memories and feelings of her pre-vamp human self AND her vamp self. When Connor asks her if she's Darla in "Inside Out", she states that she has Darla's feelings and memories "and isn't that what makes a person who they are?" (I seem to remember almost the exact same words used in another episode of either Buffy or Angel but can't remember which; it might have been The First as The Mayor, which would explain that a little bit of everyone who dies goes to The First, maybe all their evil deeds?) When Buffy died, her soul went to Heaven and she remembers being there. Neither Spike nor Angel seem to have any memories of where their souls go when they're gone. I agree with the poster who says that their initial choice to become vampires is what damns them, kinda like the contracts with the "standard perpetuity clause" damn the employees of Wolfram & Hart no matter what they do (remember Lilah saying "I knew what I was signing up for" in "Home"?). Perhaps because they made the choice to become vamps, they are forsaken from Heaven or caught in the ether, which is why they both feel they're damned, cause Buffy sure remembered where she'd been after her last death. Furthermore, Darla's one unselfsish act got her through the door, and Angel and Spike have both displayed alarming amounts of self-involvement and selfishness in their reasons, it's part of what they have to learn to get over in order to be truly redeemed. Also, Angel gave a paranoia demon a hotel full of people and effectively killed a donut shop clerk as well as used darkest magics to tear a hole to Quortoth so he has plenty of nasty things to answer for while ensouled that Spike really hasn't done, though I believe Spike's redemption lies in being truly selfless, not just doing what he thinks the good guys are supposed to.

As for Buffy killing Knights of Byzantium, one could always claim it was self-defense or protecting her family and friends. Besides, she could have wounded most of them, who later died when Glory ran off with Dawn. Warren not only killed Tara, he also killed Katrina, and both Andrew and Jonathan were guilty of covering up the crime and framing Buffy for it. When Willow flays him, it could be claimed as temporary insanity under the influence of grief and dark magicks (though she did choose to absorb all that bad magic from the books).

As for Spike shanshuing: balderdash. It was clear in "Just Rewards" and from the credits that he still morphs into vampface. The "drowning in shoes" comment as he wakes up from a dream in "Chosen" as well as the recent revelation from Fred about the prophecy makes me think that both he and Angel will be competing to shanshu, and doesn't that idea just offer up a truckload of interesting conflict for the rest of the season?

As for the amulet business, which I think is how they're going to figure out how recorporealize Spike, if it was indeed meant for Angel, maybe it was the Senior Partners' way of ensuring Angel goes bad when it comes time for the prophecy that he will play an important part in the Apocalypse (though maybe Jasmine's comment in "Peace Out" means he's already fulfilled that particular prophecy).

I'm too lazy to read the other comments so I have no idea if anyone mentioned this. But what I took from the episode was the fact that Spike, and Angel, still has a big chance at ending up in the big happy place in the sky.

When he first said he felt hell pulling him under I was a bit taken aback. But this episode revealed that it was a deranged psycho that was dragging him down. So he's not really headed to hell. This means that we can still assume that he and Angel are wrong. They probably will make it to heaven.

Okay, I've been rolling this in my head over the weekend and I can't remember: Did they ever reveal the uncle's motive for keeping that girl in the coma for all those years? Was it so he could control her family's money or just because he was a weirdo creepy guy?

Oh, and when Angel tells Wesley that there should be a few ghosts around, do they not remember that EVERYONE at W&H was killed last season? Most of them in the building.

Silly! People who get turned into brain-eating zombies don't leave ghosts. Everybody knows that!

As far as the whole "going to hell" issue goes, vampires getting their souls back is clearly a rare enough occurance that its unlikely the normal karmic laws can be expected to apply. For better or worse, the soul inherits the sins committed by the body in its absence, like a drunk awakening from a black-out.

Okay, I am probably going to stir up some controversy here, but I guess that all depends on how many people read this, seeing as how it is so far down the thread.

Okay, so when the baddy guy was holding onto Spike while the portal to Hell was opening and he said to Spike, "Your soul damns you."

Did anyone notice the little flash of a certain person after he said those words.

Now didn't that certain person look an aweful lot like Jesus Christ.

If you think about it, it would make perfect sense, and would give good reason why Wolfram and Heart want Spike at their place.

And also, we all know how Joss loves apocolyptic stories.

Just a little food for thought.

Antilles

Actually if Peter would start commenting on Charmed and on Carnivale, then he'd hit all the TV shows that I watch.

Regarding Smallville, Den asks:

Okay, I've been rolling this in my head over the weekend and I can't remember: Did they ever reveal the uncle's motive for keeping that girl in the coma for all those years? Was it so he could control her family's money or just because he was a weirdo creepy guy?

It was pretty much implied that he kept her under to control her inheritance. It sounded like her parents were pretty well-off.

(BTW, everyone who hasn't read it yet should read Larry Niven's essay "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex." He takes a very scientific, and rather humorous, look at the problems Superman could have with, er, mating. It should be interesting to see if any of his topics come up in SMALLVILLE.)

At the Comic-Con after the first season of Smallville, I asked Millar and Gough if they were going to explore the "Man of Steel, Women of Kleenex" issue on the show. After they stopped laughing, they said they weren't.

While I knew the skinny dipping scene was a dream sequence, I still enjoyed it. Now we need a Lex skinny dipping scene.