PeterDavid.net

Perhaps I read too much...

I cannot comprehend this attitude of which you write. Personally, when I'm collecting comics, it's more about story and characters for me, therefore I can't *wait* to get a hold of next month's installment, if the title is worth my money. When I was a kid, I fell into my father's ideas of buying things because they might be 'worth something' someday, and ended up with a bunch of comics I didn't care about. That was about, oh... early to mid '90's, and the hologram, quadruple foil cover books. Now I read entirely for my own enjoyment. Only time I end up buying trades is when I missed out on an earlier book, and it's easier to get the collected works than track down all the issues.

Am I digressing from your point of frustration? Probably. But your post just got me rambling. I've always found the fanboys and girls a bit peculiar. Perhaps I read too many novels.

;)

J

Caution: I make no claims that this is especially coherent. It does, however, have the benefit of being first. :-)

For what it's worth, PAD, I agree with you on the frustration level. It can't possibly help a new series' existence when half its potential readership holds off on buying it so they can get it in another form.

I'm not a wait-for-the-trade kind of person: as a general rule, I don't buy a trade of new material unless (a) it's something I expect to lend around a lot to get people interested, (b) it's something I find so amazingly cool that I know I'm going to want to pick it up and reread it in more convenient form, or (c) it's something I don't have a previous version of and am interested in. (I missed the original Squadron Supreme series, for instance, so happily picked up the trade for that when it was recently re-released.)

To play devil's advocate for a sec, though...

I think there's a parallel frustration some fans may feel if they buy month-to-month (as I generally do) and then see that a trade is released with all kinds of extra bells and whistles that wind up putting Loyal Reader in the position of "missing the cool extra stuff" or effectively paying twice for the same material.

That sort of scenario is very obviously not your fault, and it's rotten that you're getting caught in the middle as a result of that scenario popping up. From a business model, though, I can see those fans' point: if the choice is to spend money on Format A over six months, or Format B to get "everything at once plus frills" for the same cost ... yeah, a lot of people are gonna go for Format B.

That's not to say you shouldn't be frustrated. I'd be screaming in your shoes, too. But if the point is really to keep Format A alive, the two formats should be equivalent -- and right now, an awful lot of the time, they're not.

Anyone have any ideas on how to resolve that problem?

TWL

Caution: I make no claims that this is especially coherent. It does, however, have the benefit of being first. :-)

Or at least, it was first when I started writing it. Drat all the luck!

PAD, I agree with you completely. I have an Idea about how to get people to get the monthlies instead of the trades. Include cool stuff in the monthlies and in the Trades ONLY have the story and nothing else. That way if they want the cool extras they have to get the monthlies.

I am a regular buyer of "Captain Marvel" and "Fallen Angel". I am a bit behind with reading. My "too read" pile is constantly growing, I just wish sometimes a day would provide more hours. Anyway, I will definitely continue buying "Fallen Angel". I probably will also stay with "Captain Marvel" but I might drop it if the artwork is getting even worse.

From what I can see on the Internet, the vast majority of fans welcomes your presence and enjoys it to be able to give feedback and other comments. As you know, nowadays quite a few professionals, also writers, are keeping a dialogue with their fans and I think it benefits both sides. As it is in any crowd, unfortunately you get the occasional troublemaker and you should also keep in mind, not everybody is a skilled writer of comments. There can also be misunderstandings and not everyone has highly developed social skills. (Not an excuse, but an explanation for some reactions). You are a professional writer. The vast majority of your fans aren`t. People are not always as diplomatic as they should be when they are frustrated or otherwise unhappy with something. But unless it is not an obvious troublemaker, also they write because they care for what you are doing. A website like this also brings the message across that fans are not only dealing with a writer who writes something they enjoy, they deal with a human being who can also have an "off" day and be unhappy about something.

I think what you have to keep in mind as a writer is, you are writing for an audience, for your customers who pay for what you write and who want to be able to also afford to buy what you are doing. With comics, the problem is they are pretty expensive nowadays. Therefore from the perspective of fans who are on a budget - and although many adults read comics, they are still also written for youngsters, too - I can understand why they wait for the trade paperback.

At the end of the day, it is a matter of supply and demand. This means, if comics are to survive, the publishers have to adapt. I don`t know what the solution is, I know too little about the comic market. But also to me it doesn`t make much commercial sense to publish the trade paperback so closely after the single issues. I don`t think it is right to blame the fans for this problem, the comic business has to look at it how to make comics more affordable and accessable. I don`t know, maybe it might be an idea to put more trade paperbacks on the market that weren`t published as singles first.

I hope there is a way and a will to find a solution.

Well, for my part, I buy Fallen Angel monthly. I generally don't want to wait until a trade comes out, because you never know if there's gonna be one, unless it's something huge like JLA/Avengers, and that's one of the two only series I deliberately did not buy in order to wait for the trade. The other being the "Hush" storyline in Batman. I'm not even buying the hardcover of the first five issues of the latter; I want to buy a cheaper softcover. We know they'll be TPB's of both of these.

But when I decided I wanted to try and get back into Peter's Supergirl, I couldn't do it via trades, since (correct me if I'm wrong), the only two storylines collected are the first one and the last one, both of which I have in monthly form. Monthlies allow me to sample a story to see if I'll like it. I can't do that if I buy a $7 or $12 book in one shot. Waiting for a trade is something I hardly ever do. The only other times I've bought trades was with the first Invisibles and Preacher trades, and this was not because I deliberately waited, but because I had let those bandwagons pass me by without jumping aboard when they first came out in monthlies, so when I ended up buying the trades, I did so based solely on hype and recommendations. The first I regret, as I never got past the first two chapters and never went back to it. The second made me an ardent Preacher fan, for which I went out and bought the next two trades, and the rest of the series in MONTHLY form.

Peter, when you said you had "first got involved with the internet nearly twenty years ago", was this some type of joke, or where you actually involved with DARPA? Or was it just a mistake (like when you left the "th" out of "commonwealth"), and you meant to say "ten years"? Just trying to understand.

I'm just guessing, but I think that last statement is probably what Peter was commenting about anyway ;)

Z.

Peter, when you said you had "first got involved with the internet nearly twenty years ago", was this some type of joke, or where you actually involved with DARPA? Or was it just a mistake (like when you left the "th" out of "commonwealth"), and you meant to say "ten years"?

It may not have been 20, but I know it's been at least 14-15, since I remember seeing him on Usenet (via portal) around 1988-89.

TWL

I buy Fallen Angel monthly, and would hate for it to be cancelled because of poor sales.

I don't know why, but this reminds me a bit of the MP3 downloading. Well, if I'm understanding the issue correctly anyway.

It's like some of the fans are saying, "Screw that, I'm going for the quick and easy." That smells of disrespect for those that create ones favorite works. What these people don't understand is that when it becomes economically unfeasible to continue with ones creative works then it is natural that one will move on to other endeavors. I, for one, will continue to purchase those PAD titles that I enjoy regardless of format (I did purchase 3 of the first 4 NF books twice 'cause they were lost in the move). I just hope that the so-called 'fans' wise up.

Salutations,

Mitch

those fans whose support of monthly titles help provide the trade paperbacks…aside from saying, Thanks, guys. I appreciate it.

De nada.

My feeling is, if I don't feel compelled to get the issue when it comes out, the series probably isn't worth getting in TPB either. With CM, I simply cannot wait any longer than absolutely necessary to find out what you have in store each month. It's a true must read.

I'm a retailer of a comic shop and as pleasing as it is for us to sell high-profit items like graphic novels, I keep reminding people that their 'wait for the trade' attitude is as bad for the industry as the whole 90's variant cover thing.

One of the worse problems is that the discerning customer with a good (read; not automatically every title with an X) taste, tend only to get trades. Either that or people that are certain their favourite title will never be a tpb.

With our standing order system, people don't want to admit that they want to get a title every month and are 'weak geeks' that have to get their fix, but then cave in anyway. As a graphic novel you can just splurge and get a whole tp which isn't as bad as coming in on delivery day every week looking to see if your new title is out.

They don't realise that it doesn't matter. You're standing in a comic shop. You're here on delivery day as soon as possible. You pick the titles up anyway.

Get a standing order, it confirms another order of that comic and another guaranteed sale of comics that may not be on the shelf as often. Get the trade as well, it's more money, but if you're smart you'll see if you can trade the issues in. Trade paperbacks come out so soon after a title/storyline finishes that hopefully the illusion that your comics are worth something will still be present to the retailer and customers.

Charlie

I've stopped collecting comics years ago and haven't kept up with any of em in a long time. Nija Turtles was the last I collected as far as comics go. It all depended on money factor to me. I never went to buy every week, who could afford it??? I guess I'm one of the few that don't care too much about the comic industry as a whole. Collecting comics is an $$$$ habit. Was hard for me to break but something had to give. heh. Some fans just get too carried away like we Trekkies used too. I can't get gung-ho about em anymore.

You wonder why you got the reaction you did? Because idiots like Dirk Deppey misrepresent your message on journlista!, and people, reading that, and not following up, get this message from him

"Peter David accuses comics buyers who wait for trade paperbacks rather than purchase the serialized comics pamphlets of fucking with his meal ticket destroying the way the Direct Market has always done business. "

which is an incomplete and inaccurate representation of your statement. But of course, this is nothing new for The Comic Journal.

I think most people are responding to you without reading your full message, or understanding your point.

Jerry

I tend to fall in the trades contingent, but my reason isn't really "I don't care" nearly as much as "I can't afford not to."

Let my explain. I dislike individual comics as a medium. I think the 22-page format is a lousy one, especially for ongoing storylines. With something I want to re-read, I'll need to have it in trade, because comics are too fragile/awkward/expensive and, above all, too hard to keep track of in the damn boxes. I've got about 15 longboxes of comics and not enough room as it is.

When I was working full time, I could afford to buy both the comic and the trade, and I frequently did. But I've been in grad school the past couple of years, and I've had very little money to spend. If I wait until the trade comes out, not only do I get a better, easier to find format, but I can check out the book ahead of time (in a bookstore), usually pay less for the same story, and make a more informed choice based on informed reviews.

I don't have enough money to spend some of it on industry subsidy. I think the heavy reliance on trades is going to force a change; it just hasn't happened yet (not much anyway). I think the equivalent of of Fallen Angel will, in a few years, simply have a TPB put out, and never exist as a monthly. This will have some pretty major repurcussions - the pay structure will have to completely change - but I think, in the long run, it will be good for the industry.

I may be a special case. I buy maybe three comics a month; most of the trades I actually do buy are collections from the silver or golden age.

But I think the 22-page comic is doomed. I think that the format - and, especially, its cost - are going to keep it from ever reaching the heights it did before. A few creators have already bucked the trend - hence "Endless Nights." I think that'll be the standard before long, and, like I said, I think it's going to be good for the industry.

For the curious, this entire scenario seems to be another variation of the Prisoners' Dilemma.

(There's a good explanation plus a Perl version at http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/playground/pd.html . Another good explanation is at http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html )

Basically, if one person "Defects" (and awaits the TPB) while the others buy the series (Cooperate), then they "gain" over the Cooperators; they get the book in a format that is useful to them, possibly save money and/or get extras, and definitely get the whole story at once.

If no one "Defects", and everyone Cooperates by buying the series, then no one is "gaining" as much as they would by waiting for the TPB.

If everyone "Defects" and awaits the TPB (or, more correctly, if -enough- people await the TPB), then the series is cancelled and everyone loses (either by the lack of an ongoing series or even the lack of the TPB itself).

I don't have any good answers, although I note that some publishers are already coming to some interesting conclusions to resolve this Dilemma. For example, DC hasn't published a Neil Gaiman series or miniseries in years; all new books come out directly in "TPB" form, very much akin to traditional book publishing. It might make an interesting experiment if, say, Well-Known Creator(s) went directly to a 144-page format, self-contained but scheduled to ship every six months (thus involving the same amount of effort as six months of a series). If a publisher is already planning on making most of its money by TPB sales in the first place, it doesn't seem like they would come out that far behind. (And if a good publisher can't afford to present its Well-Knowns with the equivilant of a six-month royalty advance... well, that may speak more volumes about the health of the industry itself.)

Peter, I read monthlies and I read Fallen Angel. That said, I have to point out that I see this industry trying to go in two directions. Monthly books and Trade Paperbacks. It occurs to be that the attitudes and expections of customers are leading to a mutual incompatabilty between these two audiences and that the comics industry cannot support both. That this problem is beginning to show up in the lower selling borderline books is the latest symptom of this problem I am speculating on. The internet in particular has been vocal, thanks to the fans of Warren Ellis downgrading the fan base of those who purchase "Pamplets." Frankly, I would rather flame Ellis on a blog or a message board as read him thanks to the circulation of that term. So I may the wrong person to response to this. But I guess it boils down to whether you have a dedicated group of fans and/or company support. Peter, you get a lot of support on here, but you've never lead fans Lemming-like. And you've never had a company elevate you to the levels that a Bendis or a Millar have. Which is it seems you aren't supported. Sorry dude, but I plan to get back into New Frontier and buy your Trek books regularly now whereas I didn't before. It's not much consolation, I figure, but's all I can offer.

> The exchange of ideas and

> concerns is still only to be

> one way: Fans to creators.

My impression of people who are upset about the pro chilling effect is that it's based on the opposite assumption: that the exchange of ideas, such as it is, is supposed to be one way in the direction of creators to fans, in the form of the stuff we're fannish about.

They're intimidated by pro presence because they wanted *not* to be exchanging ideas from fan to creator, but rather to be able to kvetch cosily to other fans without having the creator ever know about it.

And I can see the appeal of that. You tend to use stronger language and fewer disclaimers than you would if you were attempting to communicate with the creator directly. Much like it would be disconcerting to vent about your roommate to a friend, only to find him standing behind you with a ticked off expression.

Not that I'm saying creators should have to stay off the Internet or pretend they do. I like pro presence, it's part of what makes SF cons such a pleasure. And anyway y'all don't need my permission to move around the world.

But I do find that it is a pleasure to talk about, say, Buffy to other fans without pulling my punches the way I would if I were meeting Joss Whedon, and if he suddenly appeared in my livejournal to argue for the merits of season six, I'd be deeply disconcerted, not because I want to communicate with him and not be answered, but because I wasn't trying to communicate with him in the first place.

PAD, although I do enjoy your work every month with Captain Marvel and the New Frontier books when they are released, the bottom line is that I just don't have enough money for EVERY book that looks interesting. I'm currently buying 14 comics minimum per month, most of which are priced at $2.99. It's not as many as I want to buy, but being a college student only allows for so much spending money. I make it a point to support good books, but I can't support ALL the good books.

It has nothing to do with your writing or promotion of your books, it's about money. At least in my case it is.

For the record, I just wanted to say that I for one appreciate the interaction you undertake with your fans. You talk to us, express your opinions, and keep us informed about the status of the books. Some writers and companies *coughcoughMarvelcough* feel content to simply leave us in the dark about so much of what going on. You don't do that, and I honestly respect you for it.

I'm not one of those who wait for the trade, because in this industry, unless you're a BIG seller, typically trades are slow in coming, if at all. I'd rather buy the single issues than hedge my bets and hope that it'll be collected.

The only trades I buy are either: 1.) Material I couldn't track down if I wanted to, nor afford, i.e. George Perez Avengers Visionaries or Squadron Supreme; or 2.) Books that I missed the boat on but realized my error. To give an example, I read Priest's first issue of the Marvel Knights Black Panther series, and based on the tone, I thought, "Great. Take the one thing that really makes the Black Panther interesting, his royalty and his kingdom, and chuck it for urban stories." Then I was re-introduced to the series during the "Sturm und Drang" storyarc circa Issue 25 and I was hooked.

Nevertheless, I keep buying the issues singly, and don't plan on stopping anytime soon. I've bought every issue of Fallen Angel, every issue of Dreamwave's TMNT, every issue of PAD's Supergirl, and every issue of Captain Marvel that way, among my tons and tons of other monthly reads.

Now, if only Marvel would start doing trades collecting PAD's Incredible Hulk run...I picked up Future Imperfect just a few months ago, and I *LOVED* it, but I came in during PAD's last 2 or 3 years (right around Heroes Reborn), and I'd love to get some of those earlier stories. :-)

We appreiciate your presence and interaction on the web.

On the issue-by-issue vs. TPB side, it's $$$ pure and simple.

I quit buying all but 3-4 titles after being on a 25+ title/month standard after I got laid-off back in June 2001, and even though I am back to work it's at no-where near what I was making before, and the comics just don't seem to be worth it anymore. The TPB's I can flip through at the bookstore and decide in advance if I want to spend on it. Have to watch the money closely... it boils down to $$$

I wait for trades on a case-by-case basis.

If I think a book is on the edge of getting one or not, and I really want to read the story, I'll pick them up issue-by-issue. (Fallen Angel, Gotham Central and Sleeper fall into this category. Beware the Creeper did, too.)

If I think a book is on the edge, and I'm on the edge about it myself, I don't pick it up. If the publisher decides it's worth printing as a trade, I'll have the opportunity to decide again about it. I may have heard really good things in the meantime, or I might have completely lost interest. (Runaways is in this category -- I've heard good things, and will pick it up if they really are serious about publishing it this time.)

If the book is one that I'm fairly sure will get a trade, but I think reads better with "suspense breaks," I'll usually pick up the monthlies as well. (JSA is a good example of this; so is Fables.)

If I'm dead certain that a book will be getting a trade, and I'm likely enjoy it more if I read it in one sitting anyway, I'll go for the trades. (Powers, Queen & Country, 100 Bullets, Y the Last Man, Transmetropolitan and a handful of Marvel books make up this niche for me. Some of them were books I didn't catch on to until a trade or two was out.)

I often wait for miniseries -- especially highly promoted ones that aren't dependednt on the DCU or Marvel U as it stands now. Dark Knight Strikes Back was a gimme. I'm waiting for Matt Wagner's Trinity. Darwyn Cooke's New Frontier? Busiek & Immonen's Secret Identity? I'll wait for both. But when Brad Meltzer's Identity Crisis comes out, I'll want to read it as it comes in. (It helps that that ones a mystery, and could be easily spoiled for my by a stray comment. That's what got me to pick up "Hush," as well.)

There are only a few books that I buy in monthly and trade. Fables is one; Astro City is another (even though I try to get those cheap on Ebay).

But like most people, I assume, I don't make these decisions on what's best for everybody. I decide what's best for me, for each individual book, and then buy it that way.

Rob

Peter, I feel you have every right to feel as you do. The people griping that you're worried about your "meal ticket" -- well, screw them. This *is* your meal ticket, of *course* you're going to have a strong opinion! You're entitled to that. Also, you aren't the only creator who has a problem with the "wait for the trade" mindset. Another pair of writers have tried to convince readers that their fledgeling series won't fly if the readers don't invest in it, and that there's no guarantee that that book will ever see TPB format anyway!

As for the formats, well, both have their merits and drawbacks, where reading and storage and price and other factors are concerned, and I'm one of those who prefer the single issues over the trades. I want my regular PAD and Gold Digger and New Mutants fix, so they take priority! Other books I like are squeezed out of my budget, so I put off getting them 'til later, if at all, as singles if possible, as trades as a last resort.

I have to wonder if the stateside manga publishers aren't steering readers towards the "trades only" mindset. Viz and Central Park have both abandoned the monthly comic format and now issue their product in graphic novel form exclusively, and others may undoubtedly followed suit. Whether they're catering to the readers' demand or they're causing the trend really doesn't affect them as harshly, as they're simply collecting and translating existing works, as opposed to creating new material on a constant basis.

Your position is clear, though, and you're right. American comic publishers (Marvel and DC in this instance) are driven more by the sale of individual books... if sales of early issues are flat, the companies won't have any interest in allowing the series to continue long enough to *produce* collections.

Wildcat

What's the deal with "comics as single issues are dead?!" Comics as monthly/semi-monthly "pamphlets" have been around for nearly a century and suddenly they're obsolete? Give me a break. I'm 23 and though my budget is fairly limited (i.e. college student), I'm somehow still able to scrounge enough to support one of my favorite hobbies and the creators who provide them.

I've already posted this link on another creator's message board, but I think it's relevant to the "waiting for the trades" discussions.

The post above primarily contains this text from Erik Veit:

[Begin Quote]

See...now here is my problem...

I was buying, and *enjoying* all the CG comics. About a year ago, it was clear that CG would publish ALL of their titles as TPBs. They even claimed it as their model.

So I stopped buying individual issues at that time, and started ordering the TPBs.

Westfield just told me that about 20 of the TPBs that I had on order were just canceled by the publisher.

I understand when publisher go out of business (Ultraverse anyone?). Anyway...

Here's the rub: In retrospect, I would have bought the individual issues had I known they were going to fold. Now my choices are to let it all go, or do ebay crawls for all the back issues. I still want to read whatever they

published.

[End Quote]

The "Comics as single issues are dead" thing is based on one thing - price. In the last forty years, inflation has sent prices in general up about six-fold. As a result, what was 12 cents in 1963 should have been 72 cents in 2003. Instead, they're about four times that. Dollar for time, comics are probably the single most expensive form of mass entertainment. Some sporting events and concerts come close, but kids can't really afford them either. The price of comics threatens to put them beyond the reach of kids - and without kids, superhero books (which is what we're primarily talking about here) aren't going to survive.

Peter's dead on right -I don't know why people get nuts about what is a pretty black and white fact.

If it's a mid selling book etc. and you decide to wait on the trade than obviously the sales may not warrant a trade.

On the other side - fans are right to say 'Hey, I can't shoulder the comics industry on my measly paycheck - I want a nice looking collectible trade.'

For me, I buy the monthlies b/c I can't wait to see what happens next to my favorite character.

Why do I buy trades? Well my Ultimate Spider-Man collection looks better as a trade on the bookshelf - so I find myself collecting the monthlies, then trading them back and buying the trades.

But if it's an indpendant book I go for the monthlies out of a sense of support and the simple fact that if everyone thought they'd wait for the trade - it won't get made b/c the publisher won't think there's a demand.

This topic is really all about stating the obvious.

If you don't buy the monthly the publisher won't think there's a reason for a trade.

The publishers really have to figure out a way to solve this. Comics will never be sold as trades where they wait six months and let out a six issue arc all wrapped up. But I think this would make me happier. I feel like the monthlies are just R&D for the publisher to decide which stories get the Barnes and Noble treatment as a trade.

Oh well - much like life - I said alot but still don't know if I'm any better . . .

Gah...off-topic, but please, please do not paste in Google links. I had to page back and forth to read everything because the incredibly long link forced the formatting of the entire page to its width. Sites like shorterlink.com and tinyurl.com are your friends.

And, to say something on-topic, I read the monthlies, and cringe at the pretention exhibited whenever someone calls them "pamphlets".

As Ben has said, the crux of the problem lies in the relatively huge price of standard 22-page comics. Something I hadn't really thought about much until now! Still, I can't see the market adjusting the price (downwards) any time soon ...

I tend to buy the comics, and am enormously peeved when a TPB comes out with additional material. I feel like I've been 'had'. It's a lousy way to 'reward' the faithful, semi-forcing them to pay twice for the same material. I think, PAD, if the powers-that-be agreed not to do this then some (significant?) part of the patron 'leakage' would be eliminated.

With regard to your interaction with/among the fans - a) I appreciate the time you spend with us (I'm particularly amazed at the time you've spent on the 'ask your questions and I'll answer them' blog events); and b) I think I understand your anger at those who object to your attack on their viewpoints. Nothing gets me angrier than intellectual cowards who resort to childish invective when they discover that they can't defend their accusations.

Cheers,

Brad

(Is there any way the entry box for comments in this form can be made bigger? Under Mozilla 1.01 there's only about 30 characters per line)

Peter,

You hit on a couple of major things in your entry that I want to reply to. Having the pleasure of meeting you a few times in the past at conventions, you've always been open with all fans. Of course, I haven't tried to talk to you in the men's room or while you've been eating a meal, unlike so many fanboys. They tend to forget, or don't care that this is part of your JOB. Public relations is a major deal. The internet has made it way too easy for someone to write something, then get accepted as "truth", just because it's on a web page. No fact checking, and often no real name or way to contact. That gives cowards a sense of power that they normally don't have otherwise.

Your blog here gives fans something lacking in comics. A chance for near instant feedback. Back in the "old days" all we as fans had was writing a letter to the comics, hoping they might actually be read. We never knew if our thoughts, ideas, or concerns were even read by a living person that cared. By opening up your blog, you have proven you DO care. And that's something we as fans do appreciate, even if we don't say it enough.

Of course, something that is almost inevitable, is people taking what you say out of context to bolster their own beliefs. Sad, but true. And honestly, I don't know what can be done about this, other than chalk them up to being sad little trolls that really need to get a life. For you, writing and comics are your life (or else a major part of it). For us, it's an escape from life. Those people just haven't learned that there is a difference.

On to the topic of trades. I stopped buying monthly comics YEARS ago. In fact, I got out of even reading comics totally. Then I discovered the trade paperbacks. Here was a way I could keep up with the stories and characters I liked, but didn't have to make the weekly trek to the comic shop and spend money on those, as well as a ton of other books that I didn't want, but had a vague interest in reading. Add to the fact that the cost of 2-3 comics surpased one paperback book. It wasn't a hard choice.

Plus, the publishers that came out with the holofoil/embossed/variant covers made casual collecting a nightmare. Unless you had a running detailed list of your collection in your pocket or head, sometimes you didn't know if you had a particular issue or not.

I do agree that publishers need to wait longer before releasing titles in trade form. A year seems to work for the book publishers, so I can't see why it wouldn't work for comics. Just look at DC. The first half of "Hush" was released before the series ended. So much for the buyers of the monthly title. Marvel's Ultimate titles, the same thing. Why should we, as fans, buy the monthy books when the trade paperbacks (and larger hardbacks) are going to be available in just a few months?

Trades give fans a chance to read a story based on good reviews, instead of the risk of picking up a new book and having no idea what they are getting. Again, going back to the "Hush" example, folks raved about the art, but they complained about the story. If I wanted just good art, I would invest in fine art or lithographs. For me, in comics, the story HAS to be more important than the artwork. And the best of all worlds is when both the art and story are quality.

All I've heard about Fallen Angel is good. I will be picking up the trade collection when it comes out. However, my major interest in your work is in the Star Trek/New Frontier universe. This doesn't mean I disrespect or dislike your other works, quite the opposite. But, there are just not enough hours in the day or money in the bank to buy and read everything.

Again Peter, thank you for all your good work, and for the chance to respond directly to you here on your blog.

...even if your political ideas are wacky... : )

(That's a smile...meaning it's a joke for folks that think this was a slam. Just because we don't agree on things, doesn't mean we can't get along or have reasonable discussions.)

Now gotta go watch the ending of Alias...there's a whole lot of shootin' going on!

I'm in the middle here. I buy my share of monthlies, including Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Captian, America, Fallen Angel, adn Dreamwave's Transformers. But I also read Ultimate Spiderman and New X-Men through trades. I've never bought a single issue.

I like the idea of trades, but they lack something single issues excell at: Anticipation.

There's nothing like that feeling of going to the comic book store and getting part 6 of a 6 part storyline and taking it home. It's like a movie premiere or the season premiere of a favorite show. I love this feeling and though I think trades are great, monthlies shouldn't be pushed aside for anything.

Comics fans can be some of the worst fans out there. What can any of us do?

Well, about the price of comics -- when I started reading them in 1989, they were about a buck a pop. Now, instead of doubling in just over 10 years like inflation is supposed to, they cost two-and-a-half to three times what they did, and sometimes more.

Of course, I can't really blame the comics industry for not seeing what any industry is incapable of seeing -- a lower price on a popular item will attract more buyers. PAD made this point in the open letter that started the U-Decide debacle, and it rings true to this day. If you make a profit of 50% from 100,000 units, is it better or worse than making 40% from 200,000 units?

I buy trades only to catch up with titles that I've missed, I see no other use for them.

I don't want to wait for months to get my fix of Amazing Spider-Man or Captain Marvel. Waiting for trades would also mean that I'd have to avoid spoilers for long periods and that's pretty much impossible considering how much I post at different forums.

I usually only buy older stories(Master Works) in TPB form or long epics(Earth X).

Besides that I can't see the FUN in only buying TPBs. Perhaps I have an old school view of reading and buying comics but I love going to the comic shop, having a pull-list, collecting my books in bags, etc etc etc .

I also don't really consider it a money issue. Sure, in the long run I'd save money buying TPBs, but I find it easier to pay a few bucks every weeks than to have to plant $15 down for each TPB that I want.

Also, knowing the affect that TPBs are having on books like Fallen Angel really make me want to support them monthly.

Oh, and PAD, I think your presence on the net is a great thing. Personally I love it when the writers of my favorite books communicate with the fans. Your "Ask Me Anything" events are always fun and I know they can be grueling but we fans do appreciate your time.

Simply put here is my feeling on trades.

I'll buy trades only because I got into a series 40 issues too late. Example 100 Bullets. Never thought it would be my cup of tea. I'm a superhero guy. Looked at the first trade and loved the look of it and the start. Now the back issues are over double digits. So I'm forced to get the trade.

I love the comic book format. I'm just a traditionalist at heart.

I remember PAD being on GEnie and Prodigy already when I first hooked to the 'Net in 1992..he was the only Pro I noticed online at the time.

Ed

Peter:

Sounds like you're about as depressed as I've been lately, although for different reasons.

(Public service announcement: Congestive Heart Failure is a real you-know-what to deal with folks! If you haven't seen your doctor lately: DO SO!)

Anyway, I've been having to deal with a lot of physical and emotional issues myself lately, and it certainly has been no picnic.

But lets look at things in a positive light for a moment. I have and have READ every issue to date of Fallen Angel and Captain Marvel. I can also say the same thing about Supergirl, Young Justice, the New Frontier books, and a LOT of other things you have written over the years thus far.

And as long as I'm still above ground I WILL continue to do so!

If you need labels, then here's a couple for you.

You are an excellent writer. I rank you right up there with Edgar Rice Burroughs and Terry Brooks.

And from what I hear, you are a wonderful husband and father, although those closer to home can certainly provide better examples of that than me.

Don't let the bean counters, nay sayers and other negative people get you down.

You keep writing, and I'll keep reading.

Deal?

Sincerely, a long time fan. :)

Firstly, as a designer of trading card games, I agree that you are simply representing the viewpoint that you should have in your job. Sometimes I have to remind people that my livelihood depends upon their buying of the cards we make.

As a comic fan, let me tell you how hard it is to buy a comic that is not a trade paperback.

I don't go to a comic store every month. Haven't for seven years. I wanted to buy 1602, by Neil Gaiman.

I went into a local comic store. They asked, "Did you preorder it?" Of course, I hadn't. They didn't have any. They said, "We sold through about 50 copies, but we're all out and not going to get any more."

This doesn't happen when I go to buy other things. Comic stores want to be mail order houses, not retail stores. They want their customers to tell them what to buy, buy it, and then sell it to them.

They don't take chances. They don't realize that if they sell a lot of something, somebody else might come in to buy it. That's what popularity does.

So I've missed several issues of this book I wanted to read. My only alternative right now is to wait for the trade. Because my local comic store didn't think it would be a good idea to get more of a hot title.

Must be even tougher if you're making a comic that isn't hot.

Anyway, I agree with what you said 100%, but as a consumer, sometimes the only alternative is to "wait for the trade." Because the stores are very short-sighted. They're not really stores at all, they're just a place to leave your pre-order.

I buy the monthlies, and enjoy them very much. PAD makes all absolutely right points! I do have to say I'm sorry that everything you just said is no doubt gonna be ignored by the "I don't Care Crowd"

I have to say while I'm a supporter of the monthlies, I also love TPBs as well. I was actually heavy into the TPB craze before it became popular.

But I still love the, so called, "Dead Phamplets" 22 pages still delivers a good story - and I hope some people don't forget that.

Eh, enough blabbering. Duck and Cover PAD, the "I don't care" crowd is launching another assult!

I'm not one to "wait for the trade," and I don't buy trade paperbacks if I have the monthly issues. The only tpb's I buy are collections of issues of titles I've come to late (Fables) or older back issues I can't find or afford (Batman: Tales of the Demon). Hard to imagine waiting for something I can easily enjoy on a monthly basis.

Another point that I would like to make:

There should be a fun incentive to buy monthlies. Back before there were even trades you would pick up a comic and find a fun story PLUS a letters page, Stans Bullpin, etc. Now your lucky if you get a letters page. The covers have become as generic as the trade covers and neither forshadows the story within.

While glossy-chrome and multiple covers have become an over done gimick they did give people a reason to pick up a monthly comic. Of course many of them did it to simply "get rich." However it gave people something fun to collect and they didn't have to be told to buy a monthly simply for the good story or artwork.

As an older reader (Avengers Vol l # 1), I too lament what seems to be the passing of the comicbook. I have fond memories of walking several miles to the only variety store in town that sold comics, eagerly picking up a new issue of a favorite series, amazed by the creativity of the writers and artists, or on some days being told "Sorry, nothing this week." For me trades just don't have that magic. I fear, however, that unless the big companies turn their focus away from Hollywood and back to what caught people's attention in the first place, the comicbook may be doomed or simply become a luxury item.

As for you, Peter, please don't let the hypersensitive, illogical troglodytes get you down. We need - or at least, I need - you to keep writing in whatever format is available to you. I read prodigious amounts of everything from philosophy to quantum mechanics to, YES, comicbooks and I can safely say there is not a writer out there who so consistently gives me more food for thought, more effective renditions of rampant paronomasia and humour that actually leads me to laugh out loud.

Live long and, well, you know...

P.S. For the person who wondered why you left the -th off "commonwealth". "commonweal" is an old-fashioned term for "the public good".

Cheers D. Black

Ideas?

For what it's worth, DC used to have a rule against reprinting any story less than five years old.

Taking your points into account, I'd say that rule suddenly seems to make a lot more sense.

Think we'd get DC to go along?

Ah, well.

-DB Bennett

(See? Some of us allegedly creaky old Hal Jordan fans care about the commonweal too! :-) )

Perhaps one thing we're all overlooking is the fact that trades are a great way to attract casual readers. I count myself among this group. I'm more likely to pick up a complete story than I am to go through back issue bins trying to put together a complete set. It seems that right now the industry is surviving on a small core of loyal readers. Trades are an effective way or reaching the mainstream.

TPB are supposed to fix all the errors of the single issues right? And sometimes they’re supposed to be released as a “Director’s Cut” mentality.

So when there’s a typo or discolored panel it ought to be corrected in the TPB. Marvel’s recent G.I. Joe collection, just ask Larry Hama, collected the single issues with the same coloring mistakes in issue #21 and even missed printing a page of another issue in a certain volume only to have the next volume add the page later.

There are more points that can be inserted within the TPB vs. the Monthlies and maybe one thought might be: the single issues should concentrate on beefing up more on the extra or behind the scenes things—at least in some respects—like, I know that since I don’t read Powers on the single issue basis I’m missing out on great fan letters and as I understand it, a pseudo-editor character that Bendis created to respond to the letters. That’s a nice touch to thank the readers for true monthly loyalty, but obviously not everyone should follow suit, can follow suit or be expected to do so.

But sometimes you miss things when you don’t pick up the single issues. Did you miss Bone #19 because it got collected in, strangely, Bone Reader or never read it at all in the sequential volumes and did not know about it because the creator deemed it unnecessary for the flow of the bigger picture? Or how about how Marvel skipped issue #19 of Ennis’ Punisher and eventually put it in TPB #4 instead of #3? (Not that it mattered, it was a self-contained story.)

Well, how about a Somerset Holmes example? The single issues had a backup story (same writer, different artist), which didn’t get published in the TPB. Often times the extras are added in with the TPB.

Sometimes one cannot trade in the single comic book issues because there are titles no one wants. When I dropped Blade of the Immortal from my monthly pickings to focus on TPB I had a devil of a time getting anything for the single issues I now had in collected form. In fact, I think I wound up giving away $50 worth of comics because no retailer wanted them.

Let’s not forget how the TPB or HC can get screwed up with page orders or whatever. For me, in my 25 years of buying comics with a fixed-wait I’ve encountered more trouble with TPB than the single issues.

Some examples I’ve faced with TPB are (off the top of my head):

Grendel: War Child had all but 2 pages in Chapter 7 upside-down.

Batman: Nine Lives had a repeat of 10-20 pages toward the end of the story.

Sin City: A Dame To Kill For had pages out of order where Dwight winds up meeting Ava in the bar for the first time in issues 3? Huh?

And get this, Dark Horse doesn’t care, and unfortunately since I already traded in my single issues when the HC came out this OOP HC leaves me SOL.

Single issues:

Occasionally, even after trying to pick up a decent condition one off the shelf has left me with comics with reject staples or folded, or unevenly cut pages.

Lori Lovecraft In Time Past Pt II had a repeat of pages so the complete story was missing. I’ve since re-ordered it directly from the lorilovecfraft.com

The solution? ( I’m going to be sarcastic here so I’m read correctly) is to follow Mark Millar’s disdain to hit deadlines. He’s probably selling more Ultimates because people can’t wait for the trades because the single issues take so long as it is!

My 2 cents,

Jacob B.

Tucson, AZ

In response to various points raised:

1) I remember exactly when I started on the Internet because it was brought to my attention that fans on computer message boards were discussing "The Death of Jean DeWolff," and that's what prompted me to show up. That came out in October of 1985. Considering it's now 2004, saying "nearly 20 years" seems about right.

2) "Commonweal" is a word. It means "the general welfare."

3) I am shocked--SHOCKED--to learn that a representative of TCJ is giving me something other than a fair shake. I'm sure this is merely an isolated incident and that, in the interest of fairness, that same columnist will be excoriating Gary Groth as a jackass for openly imploring fans to buy FBI backstock last year in order to save his business--i.e., his meal ticket--from going under.

4) The "rewarding" of fans who wait for trades with additional material is a fair point. I have no easy answer for it. I can point out that the majority of trades these days have no additional material. I can also point out that the reward to the supporters of monthlies is, hey...they get the story ahead months ahead of other folks and don't have to worry about spoilers.

The fact is that, in the old days, first issues of comics had introductory letters pages, character sketches, etc. Thanks to the new format of monthlies, most new books don't have them. Inserting such introductory material into trades enables a restoration of that sort of "connection" for the fans with the creative process.

Also, publishers have to view the trade as a separate package. They're asking readers who are unfamiliar with the material to plunk down--not $2.50--but anywhere from $10 to $15 and up for it, so the extra material serves as an incentive. Plus there might be readers who passed it up on the newsstand because they just weren't interested, but might be intrigued because the introduction was written by someone of note. In short, publishers are trying to take an up-priced product and make it more attractive.

I can see how that doesn't seem fair. On the other hand, you could also say, Why bother to spend $10 to go see a movie in a theater one time when you can wait a few months and spend half that to rent a DVD from a local store (or buy it for around $25-$30), watch it a whole bunch of times and see all kinds of extras besides? (Okay, granted, a big positive is that it's on a large screen. On the other hand, there's idiots talking all around you and someone just spilled soda down your back so, y'know, it's a trade-off.)

The main thing I can point out is that such collections--be it DVDs or trade paperbacks--feature material that can be seen as extras, but not necessities. The upcoming "Fallen Angel" trade paperback will feature an intro by a fairly well-known person (I hope). That's a plus. But it will not feature the heretofore revelation of the Fallen Angel's secret identity (and if you don't buy and read this eight page story, the rest of the series will make no sense to you.)

I regret there's no easy answer except to say...I dunno. Anyone who wants to send me their first six issues of "Fallen Angel" with a self-addressed stamped envelope, I'll autograph 'em. Will that help? If nothing else, it might help you sell them for more on ebay so you can buy the trade...

PAD

Wow.

So many intersecting, yet independent, topics in one thread.

First, allow me to remind all that I do own a comics shop, so speak from the retailer's POV.

The 'Catch-22' with trades, is one I've been griping about for, oh, about 20 years or so, and there are no one size fits all solutions.

Things that would help, though, include:

Waiting a minimum of 6 months after the last regular issue containing the story is released before publishing the trade.

Having occasional 'done in one' stories that are NOT included in the trades that collect story arcs.

Putting a premium on the price of the trades, so that the single issue total cost is actually lower than the trade price.

Having a double-tiered pricing system on trades - one attractive price for the hobby market, and a higher price for the bookstore (newsstand) market. This is something Marvel is currently doing with some of their regular comics series ($2.25 at shops, $2.99 on the stands).

One problem not mentioned yet is that, while the trades may (or may not) expose a wider audience to comics, they do allow for a significant slice of the business to be taken AWAY from traditonal comic shops. Having the trades (often at discount) in bookstores, Amazon, etc., means some of those sales are cannibalized from potential shop sales.

And the trades in those 'non-shop' outlets are returnable. Allowing a fixed percentage return on these higher-priced items for comics shops (say, for example, one-third of initial numbers, and 10% for re-stocks) would make it easier for the shops to stock these items in mnore depth, and the publishers would already have a built-in number that they could maximally expect to be returned, so their budgeting could reflect that - going in.

So far as (some) shops not stocking the monthlies in depth or not having enough extras - well, that may be the case with some shops, but others (such as my own) have back issues available and in stock (such as every issue of 1602 and also the CrossGen books, just as examples as mentioned above).

While ebay may be fine in its own right (and I have never once visited there) there are certainly shops, many with an online presence, that will be more than happy to fill orders for issues that may have been missed or run out at your local shop.

Part of the problem is also that the 'thrill of the hunt' we old-timers remember has been subsumed by the instant gratification that the 'net and the trades permit - some folks just want all the issues they are missing 'now' and aren't happy about getting some they may have missed from shop A and others from shop B.

Another part is either ignorance or laziness on the part of some customers at some comics shops. If the price of the comics is 'too much,' put some on hold, and save up enough to get them later (the resultant amount of $$ is what would have to be saved up for the purchase of the trade, anyway).

As for the six-fold 'rule' alluded to above - movies should therefore cost about $1.50 - the prices involved in each medium simply cannot be allotted across the board according to some arbitrary formula. Some things (electronics, for example) go down in price. Others (hardcover and paperback books, weekly news magazines, newspapers, comics) go up in price. The aggregate theoretical 'shopping basket' total price may have increased six-fold over the period in question, but each of its components and their prices will have changed up or down individually, sometimes arbitrarily, sometimes as a result of market conditions or inherent costs (paper, talent, etc.).

Yes, comics are too expensive - but they are not at an unsustainable level yet.

Several years ago, Marvel tried their 99¢ experiment - but it was a flawed experiment from the get-go.

Rather than making one already-extant title 99¢ for an extended period in order to get a realistic reading of the price change's effect on sales, they created an additional title people would have to buy (so those on a tight budget had to either drop something else or forego the new title). The new titles, by and large, were inferior to those already ongoing, as well.

With the upcoming glut of trades and manga titles, I fully expect the gross amount of returns from Borders, Wal-mart, etc., to reach a fairly disastrous (for the publishing market) level around early autumn of '04, and a subsequent implosion to follow. Would that it were not so, but have been through similar glut and purge cycles too many times before to deny the strong possibility of this occurring. And once the non-shop outlets begin cutting back in force, and begin to lose interest in the format as a profit source, their usual methodology is to ditch the entire product line.

Not much to say on the 'fan vs. creators' topic - every field (including fandom) includes some weirdos, blowhards, self-proclaimed experts and outright nutty zealots - they can and should be ignored. Those who misinterpret or do not read the original comments as posted about which they are theorizing or arguing are doing so in an intellectual vacuum, and their comments merit the same consideration as the time they took to research the originals - zero.

P.S.: don't feel it right to use PAD's board to 'advertise' my shop, so have always refrained from mentioning the name or the URL - but if anyone is truly interested (and/or needs some back issues) perhaps we could work something out. Or, with his permission, will be glad to post or e-mail the relevant shop info.

TPB are supposed to fix all the errors of the single issues right? And sometimes they’re supposed to be released as a “Director’s Cut” mentality.

Aw, man, you WOULD bring that up.

I remember when Marvel did a trade of "The Death of Jean DeWolff." The original four issues had a whole bunch of annoying little mistakes in them (such as one panel where Spidey is swinging and they forgot to ink in a webline, so he's holding onto the balloon pointer.). I gave a detailed list to editor Jim Salicrup and he fixed every one...and then the trade was released with two pages out of order, right at the end, totally screwing up the climax of the story.

And there was something like four pages out of order when the collected edition of "Future Imperfect" came out.

Brother.

PAD

(quote) Sometimes one cannot trade in the single comic book issues

because there are titles no one wants. When I dropped Blade of

the Immortal from my monthly pickings to focus on TPB I had a

devil of a time getting anything for the single issues I now had

in collected form. In fact, I think I wound up giving away $50

worth of comics because no retailer wanted them.(unquote)

Not to be insensitive, but really, what is the point here?

There is never any guaranteed aftermarket for anything. Especially so for the casual, as opposed to those who do it as a vocation, seller.

You bought the items because you chose to - and presumably enjoyed them enough and got enough worth out of them to be motivated to get the trade collections in addition to the single issues - that a bonus above and beyond that enjoyment and worth was not readily forthcoming is, to put it bluntly, irrelevant.

Comics are (generally) no more readily fungible than any other item purchased from any other outlet - though the market and mindset of much of the comics-reading universe has always strived to dent this.

Ah -- shazzbat!

That should, of course, read 'deny' rather than 'dent.'

One possible to solution to the "pamphlets" vs. trades problem is to meet halfway.

Publish less titles, but add alot of pages and extras. Maybe use a sturdier stock like TPBs. Titles like "Fallen Angel", which obviously wouldn't support their own title under such a system, would be part of anthology titles.

Fans complained about new series that you need to buy six issues in order to get a story. I launched “Fallen Angel” with a couple of done-in-one stories. When the response is, “Thanks for doing that, loved it, see you in six months maybe”…excuse the hell out of me for getting frustrated.

For me at least, I see no problem at all with the above scenario. The readers said they liked it. They just didn't like it enough to bother with the monthly. My pull list of monthly titles now consists solely of titles that I enjoy above and beyond all other titles and literally can't wait for (Promethea, Astro City, Losers, Planetary, Age of Bronze, Powers, etc.) AND titles that I enjoy moderately and know are in sales trouble ... books that aren't the best out there but that I do want to see stick around. These would include books like Fallen Angel, Captain Marvel, Spider-Girl, Christopher Priest books, Noble Causes, CrossGen books, etc.

I don't see how it is in any way the reader's fault that they didn't enjoy a certain book enough to make it onto their must-read list.

I never said people had an obligation to support monthly titles. They don’t. But boy, you sure wouldn’t know it from the level of responses my comments received.

But with statements like: "That if fans want to help ensure the survival of new series, they should consider buying monthlies." you are saying that fans have an obligation to support any book they like. There is a distinct difference between book that I really, really like and books that I just like in a general way. I enjoy JSA, but not enough to bother with seeking it out every month. Fallen Angel is really in the same category, but since I know that it is in financial difficulty, I also buy the monthly.

It seems to me that there needs to be some way to communicate the intentions of the fans you speak of to the people who actually make the decisions about whether a certain book is collected or not. Telling that to you is pretty useless, imo. The editor or the collections editor would probably be the people that need that kind of input (if those fans knew who they were).

As you know from knowing me for the past 20-odd years Peter, I have always been a strong advocate for monthly comics.

A while back a controversy arose on IcV2 where a retailer posted his opinions on the future of the industry or in other words the "death of the pamphlet". Firstly, the term "pamphlet" really rankles me, because it's "comic book format". Who came up with the pamphlet term to describe comic books I don't know, but I'd like to find him/her/it and set them straight. Anyways, I took that posted piece and dissected it paragraph by paragraph, barring no holds and injecting as much sarcasm as I felt would be bearable. They didn't post it.

The article had to do with the current influx of Japanese Manga titles and how they portend the future of the medium in both format and content. This then expanded to include the influence of North American trades. For example, the writer stated that collectors could store their books much more pleasingly on shelves instead of having to use boring white comic boxes. I countered that a quick trip to Ikea should yield some very pretty colored storage boxes. Another argument: the trade and pocket manga formats allow him to display his books on end, thereby saving space and allowing more product, to which I replied that he could then close his store, open a 200-square foot kiosk somewhere ringed by bookshelves with one aisle split by a single display and save tons of rent. You get the gist.

The most annoying comment though was that trades are more economical. This one really got to me. Yep, they sure are...mainly for publishers because they can save bundles of cash by printing extra signatures and binding them when the time was right. If anyone thinks that they are saving by buying a trade, consider my two favorite examples: 1.) Exiles vol. 2 from Marvel saves the reader ONE WHOLE CENT over the monthly cost of the separate issues, plus the reader would get separate covers not shown in the trade, plus he or she would not have to wait 9 months for a book to come out, and 2.) The small manga format is so popular with publishers, why? Because they can print the things for a very small cost compared to the (usual) $9.95 cover tag on each of those things!

There are other arguments against trades and anthologies being the only format we should embrace as the future of the industry. For example, the monthly, weekly, daily, hourly if you wish, anthology has never been successful in American comics. It's been tried many many times in full color with the likes of Action Weekly, Superman Family, et al and several Marvel books all at attractive price points. The example of Shonen Jump is cited as a contradiction to this. Meantime the recent trend is a severe DROP in SJ sales unless they put a special CD bonus or somesuch into the book. Folks over here just don't like to pay for something they don't want to read even if it surrounds something they DO want.

My firm belief is that this trend will at some point blow itself to bits as was the case with the multiple cover fads of the early 90s, but it will do so much quicker if only for the reason that it's one thing to budget for 10 or 15 comic books per week whereas it's quite another to budget for some 10 to 15 Manga or other trades per week (and yes, they're already coming out that fast and promising to increase throughout this year!). The market just can't sustain that level, and many independent comic book specialty retailers do not have the available financial resources to be able to risk the necessary depth of inventory investment required to stock everything.

But here is my most impassioned argument: What sets our market apart from all others? What makes independent comic specialty stores unique? It's the weekly release of new products that embrace monthly or other relatively dependable schedules, thereby keeping readers (and therefore customers) coming back regularly week after week, month after month. If those comic books disappear in favor of trades or these other formats, then all comic book specialty stores in effect become "just another independent bookstore", and we know what's been happening to those as the chains and mass marketers have continued to infiltrate the marketplace.

So everyone better DARN WELL DO THEIR PART so that the comic book format survives. Otherwise there will be many of us, pros and fans alike who'll be writing "woulda coulda shoulda" letters bemoaning the fates of those stores as well as this entire industry, and that may be sooner than anyone thinks.

For what it's worth, DC used to have a rule against reprinting any story less than five years old. Taking your points into account, I'd say that rule suddenly seems to make a lot more sense. Think we'd get DC to go along?

This would single-handedly kill any interest I had in almost all of DC's ongoing titles. Such a move designed solely to piss off me as a reader who prefers the collected book as a format would engender nothing but scorn for that company.

One possible to solution to the "pamphlets" vs. trades problem is to meet halfway. Publish less titles, but add alot of pages and extras. Maybe use a sturdier stock like TPBs. Titles like "Fallen Angel", which obviously wouldn't support their own title under such a system, would be part of anthology titles.

This, likewise would kill any interest I had in Fallen Angel. It would probably kill interest in some books that I was very interested in too. Such a larger anthology book would of course cost more than just the regular book. If I only actually wanted to read one series represented in said anthology, I would be paying more for the same amount of enjoyment. It's bad enough when publisher's decide to raise prices. It would be worse to be forced to actively spend money on something I was not interested in. The result would just be for me not to be forced to buy it anymore, i.e. I'd stop getting the anthology despite liking one book collected therein.

Hey many of us on here love communicating with the creators of the books we read. I love hearing what you all have to say on the different books and the problems that were run into during the creative processes. Most people i talk to seem to agree but then again, these are people who do hang around the creators various message boards...

As far as trades vs singles...

Its a thing i've ranted about alot on other boards, having watched many of my favorite series be cut and/or cancelled from production because people were assuming it all would be collected into a trade. That if they didn't support the series during their run nothing amiss would happen.

Since i'm a regular on ComiX-Fan's Krueger X board take this example..

Paradise X had to be fought for by the fans not to loose the two final issues in the entirety because most readers of the series weren't willing to pick up the books monthly because they assumed everyone else would support it and they could get the trade. (granted all the Earth X books do read better as a whole, such as in a trade, they still do work in single issues...) Only a letter writing campaign saved us but we still had to have the last two issues (the climax building for about 4 years) cut in half. Buyers who have intrest should show their interest and not rely on the unknown dependability of strangers to ensure the series produces a trade.

The example of Shonen Jump is cited as a contradiction to this. Meantime the recent trend is a severe DROP in SJ sales unless they put a special CD bonus or somesuch into the book.

SJ sells over 300,000 copies with a low level of returns when it doesn't have a giveaway, and over 500,000 when it does. Lying really doesn't help your arguement, you know.

So everyone better DARN WELL DO THEIR PART so that the comic book format survives. Otherwise there will be many of us, pros and fans alike who'll be writing "woulda coulda shoulda" letters bemoaning the fates of those stores as well as this entire industry, and that may be sooner than anyone thinks.

And here comes the guilt trip again!

The insanely expensive monthly pamphlet is like a dinosaur looking up and thinking, "Hey what's that big rock falling out of the sky?" And the sooner it becomes extinct, the better.

As of Jan 1st this year I no longer waste any of my hard earned money on the things, and if that means that I miss out on the occasional good series here and there, so what? There are a hell of a lot more important things to worry about in this world.

Isn;t this like saying..I think it is gonna be a good movie...but I aint gonna pay money to see it, I will wait for the sequel. At that point the sequel is never made for lack of sales. Or saying..I like Dark Angel, but am never home on Friday's, so I will wait for the boxed set. If the ratings suck..no box set will exsist. Just a thought. If you dont buy the comics, the comics go away.

Waiting a minimum of 6 months after the last regular issue containing the story is released before publishing the trade.

Having occasional 'done in one' stories that are NOT included in the trades that collect story arcs.

Putting a premium on the price of the trades, so that the single issue total cost is actually lower than the trade price.

Having a double-tiered pricing system on trades - one attractive price for the hobby market, and a higher price for the bookstore (newsstand) market. This is something Marvel is currently doing with some of their regular comics series ($2.25 at shops, $2.99 on the stands).

The only thing taking actions like these would guarantee, would be that I would never buy anything from any publisher that acted in this fashion again.

One problem not mentioned yet is that, while the trades may (or may not) expose a wider audience to comics, they do allow for a significant slice of the business to be taken AWAY from traditional comic shops. Having the trades (often at discount) in bookstores, Amazon, etc., means some of those sales are cannibalized from potential shop sales.

So what? As a customer my only concern is getting what I want, at the cheapest possible price.

Part of the problem is also that the 'thrill of the hunt' we old-timers remember has been subsumed by the instant gratification that the 'net and the trades permit - some folks just want all the issues they are missing 'now' and aren't happy about getting some they may have missed from shop A and others from shop B.

Another part is either ignorance or laziness on the part of some customers at some comics shops.

Thank you for a couple of great examples of why most comic book stores deserve to go out of business. Your job is to give the customer what they want, not what you want them to have.

And just out of curiosity, can anyone out there think of another retail industry that treats its customers with as much contempt, as the comic book selling business does?

How many of us have been in comic book stores run by people who treat customers as an inconvenience at best and (especially if they're women or children) as an outright affront.

How many of us have been in comic book stores run by people who will proudly proclaim their refusal to stock a particular title because they don't like the creators involved? Or try to dissuade people from buying something that they actually do have in stock? Or hold back copies of a highly anticipated comic so that they can sell them at inflated prices a couple of weeks later.

(quote)The only thing taking actions like these would guarantee, would be that I would never buy anything from any publisher that acted in this fashion again.(unquote)

Then I must perforce assume you no longer buy Marvel comics.

Businesses offering bulk discounts or senior citizen savings must, sadly, also be avoided by such a blanket boycott of tiered pricing structures.

While you (or any customer) is absolutely under no obligation of any kind to support any shop, so too the shop must take into account that there are those who will forego some purchases at the brick-and-mortar store when the same item is offered for less elsewhere, and adjust orders accordingly.

(quote)Thank you for a couple of great examples of why most comic book stores deserve to go out of business. Your job is to give the customer what they want, not what you want them to have.(unquote)

No major disagreement with your final sentence.

Your taking one sentence in my message out of context (go back and read the entire paragraph) is uncalled for. Comics selling has become a 2-way street - with roughly 4000 items listed in each month's Previews, input to the shop owner can only help both the customer and the shop.

My words were strong, but not inaccurate. Note the use of the modifier 'some' used repeatedly in the original. Like it or not, the reality is that some customers are ill-mannered at the least, and abrasive or anti-social at the worst. They deserve, of course, the same services as all customers, but their behavior and attitude need not go unacknowledged.

The retailer's job is to sell items at a level that ensures continued operations. Period.

Lacking input from the customer(s) as to what it is they want, we retailers are forced to rely on trends, hearsay and gut intuition. Please remember that what comics shops do not sell, they must eat, unlike Borders, Walden's, etc. Overordering will put a shop out of business faster than you can say Kltpzyxm. I mention this not to whine or complain, but just to state the strictures of the market.

Offering holds or time payments is an additional customer service courtesy, and I frankly fail to see how anyone can interpret it as a negative.

'Most comics shops' is pretty harsh - wishing ill fortune to befall an industry, even if disagreements exist with a sector of those so involved in the vocation, smacks of voodoo.

(quote)How many of us have been in comic book stores run by people who treat customers as an inconvenience at best and (especially if they're women or children) as an outright affront.

How many of us have been in comic book stores run by people who will proudly proclaim their refusal to stock a particular title because they don't like the creators involved? Or try to dissuade people from buying something that they actually do have in stock? Or hold back copies of a highly anticipated comic so that they can sell them at inflated prices a couple of weeks later. (unquote)

While such shops no doubt exist, all I can say is that my own is not among them, and I have never - not once - engaged in any of the practices mentioned, and take extreme umbrage at being accused, even passingly, of doing so. Those who may engage in such practices are deserving of scorn, but broadbrushing the entire gamut of shops with such asertions is just plain rude.

Nearly a quarter century in business, with a coterie of satisfied customers (including some who maintain a significant chunk of their business with us via mail, rather than through their current local shop), of all ages and genders, is sufficient reward, thank you very much.

If your own local shop doesn't pass muster, you certainly have my commiseration. But that is something that needs to be taken up between you and them.

Never have understood the legend about females and comics shops. Females represent (and have always done so, since shop inception) between 35% and 55% of our business.

Don't want to use PAD's blog to get into a shouting match or a back-and-forth on this, especially not on a personal level, but did feel a reply to the accusations tendered was warranted in this instance.

Okay, I've obviously been living in a cave.

I didn't even realize there were people out there who had the mentality of "waiting for the Trade". Maybe it comes from the fact that I started collecting long before there was such a thing as trade paperbacks. Maybe it comes from an ignorance of comics (with the exception of Sandman) that collect the entire run in various trades. Obviously they must be out there, but I was unaware of them.

Maybe I have at least a partial solution to both the "waiting for the trade" issue and the pricing issue.

Does anyone remember the Death of Captian Marvel (Fortunately, not Mr. David's version)? This was a major story which was created in a stand-alone format.

Compare that with the monthlies these days. You've got stories and story arc that span a few months. Well, that's to be expected. After all, comics are essentially chapter plays.

You also have the "Major Cross-over Events" where one has to buy the title they normally buy, plus up to 5 or 6 other titles for as long as 3 months in order to get the whole story. Pluse, for some of them, you also have to buy the "bookend" issues. DC is famous for this trick.

So here's my idea: leave the monthlies as monthlies. Collect them a few years later if there is sufficient demand. Take these giant crossover events and make them graphic novels, rather than cross-overs. Then it doesn't interrupt the flow of the story, the fans have a reason to collect the monthlies, the paperback versions are made of entirely new material that the collectors of the monthlies can take or leave as they see fit, the price drops because people become less fed up with "events" and if fans buy the paperback "events" they will run into characters that they may not have realized they like.

And as for the use of "commonweal"...

Mr. David, you are a writer. Use whatever words you like. If you can get at least one person to crack a dictionary to look up a meaning, then you're going above and beyond the call of duty.

But with statements like: "That if fans want to help ensure the survival of new series, they should consider buying monthlies." you are saying that fans have an obligation to support any book they like.

No, I really didn't, but this IS the exact kind of sentiment substitute that I was citing earlier. It's the retranslation of a statment that puts forward something reasonable and recasts it into something unreasonable that assigns responsibility/blame.

I said that if fans like a series, the best way to help make sure that it will continue it is to purchase it monthly. To read that as saying that they have an "obligation" to purchase it monthly is ludicrous--although its very ludicrousness makes it far easier to attack than the far more reasonable sentiment I expressed.

PAD

Isn;t this like saying..I think it is gonna be a good movie...but I aint gonna pay money to see it, I will wait for the sequel. At that point the sequel is never made for lack of sales. Or saying..I like Dark Angel, but am never home on Friday's, so I will wait for the boxed set. If the ratings suck..no box set will exsist

Which reminds me, I really need to go pick up that Firefly DVD set...

:-) (The point in general is well taken -- I just couldn't resist.)

TWL

"Isn;t this like saying..I think it is gonna be a good movie...but I aint gonna pay money to see it, I will wait for the sequel."

The argument has merit, but there's the other side of the coin where customers (such as myself) are tired of being frustrated when they follow a series and get left hanging because the sequel doesn't come out. For example, KAMANDI ended its run with an especially frustrating "to be continued" where they seemed about to reveal a lot of the secrets behind the character and the world he lived in. Paying money to get furstrated like that is not my idea of fun.

Peter, please don't let the turkeys get you down. Just keep on doing what you do, which is excellent, and which you seem to enjoy very much. And lots of us enjoy it too. I was thinking about once when Harlan Ellison chewed a guy up one side and down the other, when the guy criticized something the Great Ellison had written. I am a big fan of Ellison's but it was a bit painful to see him so thoroughly destroy this idiot in audience. But maybe a bit of that attitude would come in handy for you, from time to time.

And just out of curiosity, can anyone out there think of another retail industry that treats its customers with as much contempt, as the comic book selling business does?

The music industry.

You sound like one of the people who would rather steal music than pay for it, because your way is better than the industry way, than the retail way.

Sure, stores need to cater to consumers, but what's your point?

People still buy monthlies, and people buy trades only. So how exactly do they cater to both groups and NOT go out of business?

But that doesn't matter to you cause you're just cheap.

If a product is good, it's worth paying a little bit more for.

Granted, I haven't bought a comic in two years, but this was the case for me when I did collect - the comics were worth the price.

Star Trek and Dragonlance novels, along with the others I buy, are worth the price.

(And isn't alot of the inflation in comics and novels caused by the cost of paper?)

CD's, however, are not worth the cost. Most of the music out there is utter crap. And while I do buy the music of the artists I like, there aren't as many said artists as in years past.

This is something else that the music industry fails to recognize as well in their witch hunt of P2P users.

Trades vs. individual issues? I buy both!

I go with the TPBs for stories that are connected and complete, such as SANDMAN or POWERS. For me, getting these books month by month feels like buying a great novel, reading a chapter, setting it aside for a month, reading another chapter, and so on...

I go with individual issues for books that work pretty well as stand-alone stories. DORK TOWER, KNIGHTS OF THE DINNER TABLE, and PS238 are all stories I don't mind waiting in-between issues. (I probably will get the TPB for DORK TOWER simply because I don't want anythng to my signed 1st edition of #1.)

That's an advantage TPBs have over individual issues: durability. It's easier to keep a TPB on a bookshelf than a bunch of single issues, and I find it much easier to loan someone a single volume than several loose comics.

As for the abovementioned errors in TPBs, I've seen the screwed up pages in THE HULK: FUTURE IMPERFECT. I've also seen this done in individual comics (an issue of THE QUESTION was ruined when the last page was printed halfway through the story).

As for TPB benefits? Most of the ones I've gotten recently (HELLBOY and POWERS leap to mind) have creator notes, sketches, covers, and other extras. And words cannot express how glad I am to have gotten the KINGDOM COME TPB and enjoyed the post-story meeting at the end that NO ONE buying the individual issues got to read. Unless, y'know, they spent money on the TPB afterwards...

I appreciate PAD's frustration with single comic sales suffering because of people waiting for TPBs, but I can very easily understand why some folks prefer the TPB.

I think we have two issues here, fan reactions to creator input and monthlies vs. TPBs, so I'm going to address them separately.

First, monthlies vs. TPBs. I'm sorry to say that I will be moving more and more of my purchases away from monthlies and into the TPBs. First, there's often cited cost of the monthlies that has just skyrocketed out of control. I'm not old enough to remember the days of the 10-cent comic, but I do remember buying my first comics in the 70s for 40 cents. Thirty years later and the average price is over seven times that amount. I remember as a kid worrying about how my parents would react if they found out that I just spent $20 on comics in one month. Now, I've had weeks where I've spent over twice that amount in one week.

Even with inflation factored into it, the rising cost of monthlies is starting to take its toll.

I don't begrudge comics creators the right to earn a living, but I have also got to think in terms of my own budget. If I want to continue buying comics and enjoying the medium, then I have to change the way I buy or just buy fewer comics. Neither may be good for the creators in the short term and for that, I am sorry.

It's an open secret that many, if not most ongoing series at being structure around six-issue arcs in order to fill in the TPBs. John Byrne even said recently that for his upcoming JLA arc, he was told that it had to be six issues. This model has hurt the monthlies because always fewer people will buy part 6 of 6 then will buy part 1 of 6. Plus, many stories are now read like they're being artificially stretched out to fill one or more TPBs. I've alredy had several people tell me "but it reads much better in the TPB" after I complained about a story arc running too long in a monthly.

PAD, you may be fighting the good fight to preserve the monthly with some short, stand alone stories in Fallen Angel, but I think you're fighting a losing battle to save a dinosaur that doesn't realize the meteor has alreay hit.

Because of this and the rising cost of the monthlies, I do believe that TPBs are the future of the comics industry. Let's face it, they last longer on the shelves than monthlies, which makes them more attractive to the big box stores like Borders and B&N and they allow for the telling of more complex stories. Just as forty years ago, when the industry started shifting from telling four or five eight page stories in one comic, to telling 22-page stories in one book, not to mention when Stna Lee introduced those three words to comics: "to be continued."

While PAD is right in pointing out that low monthly sales does reduce the likelihood of a book being released in a TPB, I think that's only a temporary hitch. Eventually, DC, Marvel, Image, et. al. will all have to develop new business models to reflect that TPBs are going to be the standard and not a special feature of the industry in the years to come.

Folks:

Some have mentioned cost as a factor when deciding whether to purchase. Consider this: "Many Happy Returns" is available at Overstock.com for $9.90 plus $1.40 postage (when using a bookstore search engine like www.bestbookdeal.com or www.allbookstore.com). So, if it's likely that the publisher is going to do a TPB, then some will want to wait and get the lower-priced deal.

George Guay

(Apologies to those who might have raised this point sooner.)

Now, as for fan reactions, I think it's endemic to both the internet "chat" culture and of culture sci-fi and comicsfan. I remember seeing PAD post comics about X-Factor back in the early 90s and getting blasted by fans for it, so he is right that this is long term problem and I have seen creators like Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek, and Jeph Loeb getting savagely attacked on the DC message boards after they tried to answer questions posted by fans. One person even accused Kurt Busiek

taking bribes from DC to make sure that Superman beat Thor.

People tend to see internet as a place to rant and rave about what bugs then. This is especially true about Sci-Fi and comics fans who appear to have a sense of ownership towards the characters that they have spent years of their lives following and worshiping. Again, this isn't really anything new, Chris Claremont reported receiving death threats after the Dark Phoenix saga back in the 1980! It's just that internet is designed to give every idiot a megaphone to put out his rant for all the world to see (or at least, all of fandom to see).

Here's the thing, PAD, many of these people don't want to hear your side of it. They don't want to hear an explanation of your reasoning behind the story or that you are planning something. When Jamie Maddox fell out of the window, you didn't follow their preconceived notion about how his powers worked, so therefore, you are a hack and should give up writing never darken one of their titles again with your presence.

There really isn't any reasoning with these people. These are the kind of people who latch on every creative team change on Green Lantern as proof that DC has finally seen the light and will bring Hal Jordan back to life as the one true GL. And then, when it doesn't happen, they will rant and rave about how DC deceived them again!

Some people are just jerks. And just because a jerk knows how to post a weblog, doesn't make them any more worth your time. If I were you, I would reply to those who appear sane and just tell the trolls, "that's great. Have a nice life."

Boy, shows you what I know. I had absolutely no idea that the Net was around back when I was 13 and Back to the Future was in theaters. I was under the impression that it wasn’t available to the public until about 1992-94. Perhaps that was just in its current form. I also had no idea “commonweal” was a word. Generally, I use one of the several dictionaries I have near my computer, or go to dictionary.com to reference a word, but my assumption that “commonweal” was a mistake on Peter’s part seemed so obvious to me at the time that I didn’t even consider it.

Thanks for clarifying, Peter and Tim.

Peter David: I never said people had an obligation to support monthly titles. They don’t. But boy, you sure wouldn’t know it from the level of responses my comments received.

Ralf Haring: But with statements like: "That if fans want to help ensure the survival of new series, they should consider buying monthlies." you are saying that fans have an obligation to support any book they like.

Luigi Novi: No, he is not saying that, as the two statements don’t mean the same thing. The two main differences between them is that:

1. He includes the conditional phrase “if the fans want to help ensure the survivial of a series,” which is not the same thing as “any book they like.”

2. He said that the fans should CONSIDER his suggestion, which is not the same thing as asserting they have an obligation to it.

Joe Krolik: If anyone thinks that they are saving by buying a trade, consider my two favorite examples: 1.) Exiles vol. 2 from Marvel saves the reader ONE WHOLE CENT over the monthly cost of the separate issues…

Luigi Novi: Does that include the cost of bags and boards? At Midtown Comics in Times Square, NYC, a bag and board is .25 cents. And such things also take up extra space. A minor detail, but I just thought I’d point it out. :-)

skrinq: Part of the problem is also that the 'thrill of the hunt' we old-timers remember has been subsumed by the instant gratification that the 'net and the trades permit - some folks just want all the issues they are missing 'now' and aren't happy about getting some they may have missed from shop A and others from shop B.

Luigi Novi: Yeah, imagine that. Imagine shopping around for something, and wanting to be able to purchase when I actually step foot in a store, and not want to get it piecemeal. Why, the utter nerve of me!

skring: My words were strong, but not inaccurate. Note the use of the modifier 'some' used repeatedly in the original. Like it or not, the reality is that some customers are ill-mannered at the least, and abrasive or anti-social at the worst.

Luigi Novi: Sorry, skring, but, the above statement concerning merely wanting to buy what you want when you want it doesn’t seem to convey that.

You sound like one of the people who would rather steal music than pay for it, because your way is better than the industry way, than the retail way.

Ooookay. So buying trades instead of individual comics is equivalent to stealing music. John Byrne, is that you?

If a product is good, it's worth paying a little bit more for.

If you’re talking about a car, or a TV maybe. For drawings on paper, I’ll pay the least amount possible, if it means having to wait a couple of months of even a couple of years. I have such a large backlog of stuff to read that it’s no burden on me.

And if I can buy something like the Absolute League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen collection for $52.50 from Amazon, why the hell would I pay $75.00 for it in a comic book store?

CD's, however, are not worth the cost. Most of the music out there is utter crap. And while I do buy the music of the artists I like, there aren't as many said artists as in years past.

There’s plenty of good music being created every year. You won’t find any of it in the charts or playing on MTV though. I bought almost 50 new albums last year and expect to buy the same amount this year.

And if you think, “because most of it is crap,” is a good excuse for theft, then you really must be John Byrne.

said that if fans like a series, the best way to help make sure that it will continue it is to purchase it monthly.

Like I said not everyone can afford to buy stacks of comics every month. I had to give it up cause I only make min. wage and something had to go. I even had to give up collecting Trek stuff as well. When money is tight and you have to let something go, ent. products are the first on the list for most people. To expect fans to buy every month is dumb. Sometimes it can't be helped. Just like music CD's. I don;t download music and neighter do I go out and spend 20 dollars on a CD. And the RIAA can kiss my ass cause I am boycotting them anyway. I had mountains of comics when I was younger. Just sitting in boxes collecting dust. Not worth it to me to keep collecting.

after awhile, I did by TBP because the stories were better. :)

Ralf Haring: But with statements like: "That if fans want to help ensure the survival of new series, they should consider buying monthlies." you are saying that fans have an obligation to support any book they like.

You're reading too much into that statement. Peter's sentiment was, "If you choose not to support the monthly, don't be too surprised if that book you enjoyed doesn't sell well enough to warrant that trade paperback."

At least that's what I got out of it.

For me, I love monthlies. I like the feel of comics in my hands, the staple instead of the binding glue (with comics, the paper is the first to go, but only if the comic is stressed, whereas binding glue will wear out in five or six years just sitting on the shelf). I like going in every week and talking for twenty minutes to an hour with the guy behind the counter about the books I'm reading, the books he reccomends, what he's planning to stock, favorite artists and writers, and so on.

I have no idea where the tons of people who swear by trade paperbacks come from; only recently have comics less than a year old been reprinted unless they sold through the roof. You never saw plain ol' six-issue story arcs printed unless they had serious repercussions, and most of the TPBs I would see were major stories (Panic in the Sky, three or four X-Men and Spider-Man stories), special events (the collection of DC/Marvel crossovers, like Titans/X-Men and Batman/Hulk), and full runs (Cerebus and Sandman).

Frankly, I'm annoyed with the heavy influx of recent stories as TPBs -- most of them by Geoff Johns, for some reason -- I remember a ton of stories I loved that never got that treatment, and they were stories that actually needed it. I mean, do I really need a collection of six consecutive issues of JSA? No, I can go find those somewhere, or at least I can try to. It's straightforward and collecting something like that doesn't really help anybody except the people who refuse to buy monthlies. But take a story like "Breakdowns," the 15-part JLI/JLE crossover from seven or eight years ago, or the Green Lantern/Flash crossover "Gorilla Warfare," one of the most referenced moments in recent DC history -- second only to "One Punch!" -- in spite of the fact that it was the most unimportant story ever told -- aside, of course, from the fact that it had Rex the Wonder Dog in it.

Why are these great stories not getting attention? Because they're old? Because they didn't sell (that's crap, by the way -- Waid's Flash was always a middlin'-to-good seller, and JLI's sales only faltered near the end)? Or perhaps because they weren't written by Golden Boy Geoff Johns? Come on; where's the TPB for Phil Foglio's Stanley and His Monster? What about the death of the KGBeast and the first appearance of the NKVDemon? The "Krypton Man" story from the late '80s? Why was Kevin Smith's "Quiver" hardcover? Why hasn't Giffen's L.E.G.I.O.N. or PAD's Aquaman been collected?

The heavy influx of irrelevant stories from six months ago doesn't really indicate the death of the medium, it just shows the weakness of it; people are patient and there's an element of frugality involved too, so drop the damn price of the monthlies! They shouldn't be comparable in price to the collected editions, that's just stupid.

Take a look at the Top 300 list; even the best-selling comic can only move just under 150,000 units. Compare that to the million copies of Spawn #1 that were sold. Am I to understand that Spawn was as good as sales get? Out of nearly 300 million Americans, the best they can do is a five hundredths of a percent of the population (and that doesn't even count the fact that the Top 300 includes Canada)? What other creative industry can lay claim to such small numbers? JLA/Avengers #3 isn't a success (at 148,196 units sold in November), it's just the least pitiful failure. And if you take a look at graphic novel sales, the top seller at 41,000 copies isn't really the shot in the arm comics need to survive.

I'll just jump in to re-make the points that I made on this very blog a number of months ago; companies (like Marvel) that don't wait at least six months from the time the last chapter of a story arc hits the stands to publish the trade paperback collection are killing the monthly comics. If the collection is out right after the story ends, why not wait?

This will drive up the prices of all trade paperbacks (which will no longer have their production costs subsidized by the monthly books), thus undercutting one of the two reasons for buying a trade in the first place (price and convenience).

And for those waiting for the trade to buy a title they're considering, I have two words: ATLANTIS CHRONICLES. So many people waited for the trade on that one (arguably one of PAD's best works)that the resulting low sales torpedoed any collection (even though one was actually solicited, then cancelled).

Not relevant to your primary point, but talking about the presence of pros amongst the fans, Poppy Z. Brite has been kicked out of an online community named after her

Just a few additions and affirmations:

For the fans buying monthlies, publishers can release a 16 page (or multiple of 8 pages) special issue with both the additional info/story/pages in the graphic novel and extended reader letters with answers from the editor or creators, sketches, etc.

The price issue is a big one. Why does free television have so many car commericials? Because there are enough viewers out there who can afford to buy or lease cars.

Pubishers need to have a clear strategy cover price for monthly issues, and decide how they want to build their audience and sales. I agree that cover prices should be more reasonable and that the gamble should be towards quantity profits in the long run, rather than immediate short-run profits. However, this is less predictable to business people; and it can be difficult to convince non-fan publishers and their corporate committes to go along with this.

TPB for Phil Foglio's Stanley and His Monster?

Cough, cough! Excuse me? Where's the Trade Paperback for Arnold Drake's Stanely and His Monster?

You know, the guy who created it, and is a wonderful writer who also did break down sketches. Oh, yeah, he wrote the first graphic novel back in teh 1950s.

Since nekouken mentioned Spawn, allow me to ask an OT question:

Has anyone here heard about the Supreme Court decision on Todd McFarlane's case at http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SCOTUS_COMIC_SPEECH?SITE=1010WINS&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT ?

Hey - I will only collect a book if I'm DYING to read it. I'm not going to just "wait for a trade" for myself - if I'm going to spend hard-earned money on it, it's because I'm ready to drop everything else in my life until I read it.

Now, I will buy the trades for books I've picked up LATE, or as Christmas / birthday presents for friends with different reading tastes. For instance, I caught onto Sandman & Transmetropolitan right around the time the last issues came out. So, I buy the trades.

But, on a current book, I just can't wait that long. I love the book POWERS. I tried to wait until the trades came out. I couldn't. The issue, sitting on the shelves, burnt its way into my subconcious. I couldn't leave the store without it, because I found it so compelling that I wanted to read it.

I've only read about half of the above posts, but wanted to offer my opinion/view point of the whole tpb issue.

But first, sadly, PAD's horrible treatment by many of the so-called online "fans" is all too symptomatic of one of the biggest problems our society faces today: lack of civility. People today are just much ruder and crasser than in previous generations. As if you needed further proof, just go to any movie theatre and observe the audience's behavior. People have absolutely no respect for others, and that shows quite clearly in their behavior toward PAD and other professionals who grant us the courtesy of actually communicating openly with us, their fans. It makes me ashamed to call myself a part of such a community.

Now about tpb's. I buy both, when I can afford them. Like everything, it is primarily a matter of budget.

I like buying monthlies because of the cover art, which is often not included in a collection, letters pages (less an issue lately, since so many books no longer have them anyway), and the thrill of seeing where the story goes from issue to issue.

I also buy trades of the stories I like or have missed, since it is so very nice to be able to read an arc straight through in one setting. On occasion the trades also include additional material not published in the monthlies. Collections of out of print or classic material are also appreciated. I will never be able to afford original issues of Lee and Kirby Fantastic Four, or Lee and Ditko Spider-Man, so I love being able to read these issues in the Masterworks or Essentials collections.

Given a choice between the two, however, I would choose the monthlies without hesitation. There is still such a thrill to going to the comic store and finding a new issue on the rack. It is almost the same feeling I got 30 years ago as a kid riding my bike to the corner drug store and flipping through the books on the squeaky spinner rack. And as Peter has pointed out, without the monthlies, there will be nothing to collect into a trade.

PAD we are, more or less of the same age. In other words we've seen how technology has changed the entertainment medium.

Remember when TV programs proudly mentioned that their show was "In Color".

My point? Things change, it's the nature of the universe.

You're getting older and like myself we are seeing things that are changing for the better, others are going headlong into disaster.

Comics, in order to survive WILL change. It is inevitable.

If tomorrow one million readers suddenly preferred TPB instead of monthlies -- you'd be writing for TPB.

You're a writer that has survived for years - while others have gone the way of the dodo. You think you did that WITHOUT adapting to the ever changing readership/environment?

Hell, if gay readers suddenly organized and used their wallets and pocket books to demand changes ... well, you have an imagination go ahead and fill in the blanks.

Fans are nastier than they used to be? Here's something -- so what?

Bottom line, as long as they are buying books you can pick and choose what and who you what to respond to.

Most of the really angry ones already have a tentative grasp on reality and are mostly classified as hopeless virgins living with their parents looonngg after it was reasonable ... So IGNORE them.

I'm of mixed minds on this subject.

I Like trades. I like the lack of ads, I like having an entire story line (or two) in one package and I like that I can get trades more easily than I can single issues.

I can pick up trades at Barnes and Noble, a very quick stop on my way home. There is no comic book shop along my normally traveled route.

I'm disabled, going out of my way for comics is difficult, if not painful.

Yes, I could subscribe and I do subscibe to several comics. However, I'm not going to subscibe to a new series without a chance to at least sample an issue (or an arc).

In the case of Fallen Angel, I did conctact my mail-order dealer and have him add it to my "pull-list." I don't do this for every new comic that catches my eye. I did this based on my faith in the author.

But if Peter hadn't been the author, I might have waited for the trade.

Why?

1) I pay for my subscriptions up front; one year at a time. That's a fair bit of coin to invest in a series I might not like

2) The series could get axed before my year is up. This could leave the series in mid-arc. Peter, I know from experience, tends to tie up loose ends. Some other writers do not.

Plus, the other reasons I listed about regarding why I like trades.

Again affirmation to William who was very succint. Trades are good to catch up, and as gifts to new readers of a title.

By the way, I love Phil Foglio's sense of humor and art style and would suggest a TPB that included from both versions of Stanely and His Monster with introductions by both authors... could even have one of those turn around covers on both sides....

I agree with Meredith and with Den - some fans are very covetous of the idea of saying things about a pro (and that pro's work) behind his or her back rather than having to deal with the consequences of their words. I think it's part and parcel of the mentality that holds fictional characters in greater esteem than real people. Fortunately, as Baerbel Haddrell noted, fans possessing this kind of mentality do seem to be in the minority; it's just that a lot of them are old-time holdovers from Usenet, where that way of thinking never really seemed to die out.

Jim, I really feel for that CG fan. About the time they were proclaiming they "would publish ALL of their titles as TPBs" and that this was "their model," they were also screwing their freelancers by not paying them - a situation that has STILL not been rectified (i.e., not a SINGLE freelancer has been paid yet, as far as I know), just swept under the carpet by CG and a complacent press. Just as a by-the-way.

Peter- It's not the fans fault that the people who run the superhero comic industry are incompetent and release new content in the worst format imaginable.

Instead of complaining to fans, why not complain to managemant and get yourself fired?

Howdy,

One brief thought on monthly vs. TPB:

Buying comics monthly requires patience and persistence, especially if you miss an issue and have to track it down to fill the hole in the story. Perhaps the reason the monthly comic book is withering is due to the shrinking number of people in possession of both qualities? It takes a certain obsessive quality to collect comics monthly.

This is not assisted by the lack of locations where monthly comics and back issues can be purchased. I know there is the Internet or eBay, where you get to buy the issue you missed for $2.50 and pay $4.00 for shipping. See above comment about patience, persistence, and obsessiveness, and how the average schmoe today has insufficient quantities of all three.

In general, I wonder about the viability of serialized fiction as a whole, especially in a genre intent on creating stories with a beginning followed by an interminable middle and no end in sight. How are soap operas doing these days?

-- Ed

You're reading too much into that statement. Peter's sentiment was, "If you choose not to support the monthly, don't be too surprised if that book you enjoyed doesn't sell well enough to warrant that trade paperback." At least that's what I got out of it.

I didn't read it that way, because I thought that would have been blatantly self-evident. I suppose the original anecdote that was related by Mr. David seemed to me to have been construed in the wrong way. If a reader says they'll wait for the trade, to me that doesn't mean that they are 100% expecting a guaranteed collection in the future. It just means that they were marginally interested in the comic, but not so overwhelmed that they couldn't live without it. Whereas in times past, the reader would have had no choice but to collect the issues to get the story, there is now another option available, a more comfortable, affordable option for many.

Publishers must adjust their business models to account for trade sales. It's not only smart to diversify your business, but it has unexpectedly led to people spending more on comics than they did before. I am much more likely to buy a marginally interesting series in trade than as issues. I spend more on comics now than I ever have before.

I have no idea where the tons of people who swear by trade paperbacks come from;

Either they've been here the whole time or they left during the speculator bust. There are lots of former comic readers out there who wouldn't mind being casual comic readers again if the stories were good. Trades are the ideal format to reach them.

Frankly, I'm annoyed with the heavy influx of recent stories as TPBs -- most of them by Geoff Johns, for some reason -- I remember a ton of stories I loved that never got that treatment, and they were stories that actually needed it. I mean, do I really need a collection of six consecutive issues of JSA? No, I can go find those somewhere, or at least I can try to. It's straightforward and collecting something like that doesn't really help anybody except the people who refuse to buy monthlies. But take a story like "Breakdowns," the 15-part JLI/JLE crossover from seven or eight years ago, or the Green Lantern/Flash crossover "Gorilla Warfare," one of the most referenced moments in recent DC history -- second only to "One Punch!" -- in spite of the fact that it was the most unimportant story ever told -- aside, of course, from the fact that it had Rex the Wonder Dog in it.

Why are these great stories not getting attention? Because they're old?

Yes, because they are old. It's much easier to sell a trade when there is a current tie-in project. That's why you'll see trades of characters that are currently featured in the movies or are currently popular. There will be a collection of Perez' last couple Avengers issues that crossed over with Thunderbolts to tie in with the upcoming Avengers/Thunderbolts miniseries. It's not so easy to sell a collection of some random story from before trades became popular, regardless of how good it is.

Because they didn't sell (that's crap, by the way -- Waid's Flash was always a middlin'-to-good seller, and JLI's sales only faltered near the end)? Or perhaps because they weren't written by Golden Boy Geoff Johns? Come on; where's the TPB for Phil Foglio's Stanley and His Monster? What about the death of the KGBeast and the first appearance of the NKVDemon? The "Krypton Man" story from the late '80s? Why was Kevin Smith's "Quiver" hardcover? Why hasn't Giffen's L.E.G.I.O.N. or PAD's Aquaman been collected?

Kevin Smith's Green Arrow is in hardcover because they think they can sell it at that price, making them more money. If a series by some other creator sold gangbusters, you can be sure DC would collect those as hardcovers as well, such as with Jim Lee's Batman. I'm fully expecting Avengers/JLA to show up as a hardcover first.

Take a look at the Top 300 list; even the best-selling comic can only move just under 150,000 units. Compare that to the million copies of Spawn #1 that were sold. Am I to understand that Spawn was as good as sales get? Out of nearly 300 million Americans, the best they can do is a five hundredths of a percent of the population (and that doesn't even count the fact that the Top 300 includes Canada)? What other creative industry can lay claim to such small numbers? JLA/Avengers #3 isn't a success (at 148,196 units sold in November), it's just the least pitiful failure. And if you take a look at graphic novel sales, the top seller at 41,000 copies isn't really the shot in the arm comics need to survive.

Keep in mind that those are only sales through Diamond and not to regular book stores.

On a completely unrelated note... Axel Alonso makes reference to Peter's dislike of Bruce Jones' Hulk in his latest interview:

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8052

I agree re: Phil Foglio's Stanley and his Monster (coincidently, I just reread it yesturday). No Sandman collection is complete without it!

Jim, I really feel for that CG fan. About the time they were proclaiming they "would publish ALL of their titles as TPBs" and that this was "their model," they were also screwing their freelancers by not paying them - a situation that has STILL not been rectified (i.e., not a SINGLE freelancer has been paid yet, as far as I know), just swept under the carpet by CG and a complacent press. Just as a by-the-way.

Elayne, have there been any new developments? Wouldn't any new report just consist of "still not fixed, see previous article?" Not exactly the most compelling news...

Isn't this like saying..I think it is gonna be a good movie...but I aint gonna pay money to see it, I will wait for the sequel. At that point the sequel is never made for lack of sales. Or saying..I like Dark Angel, but am never home on Friday's, so I will wait for the boxed set. If the ratings suck..no box set will exsist

Which reminds me, I really need to go pick up that Firefly DVD set...

Do you think that if anyone but Joss made Firefly the boxed set would have been made ? Firefly's rating did not warrant a boxed set....Joss's fan base and his persistance did. And yeah I can see where you couldn't resist :)

I generally pick up the single issue of comics for just the reason you noted PAD. I want the book to do well. If at some point I think I can stop getting the issues and switch to TP I do that. I don't get both. (though I may much later go back and get the early TPs that I didn't get initially).

So I keep getting Fallen Angel issues and passing on the TPs. But I recently stopped getting Fables and Y-Last Man in favor of TP.

Okay, I realize I must be missing something here, but I notice that everyone keeps comparing comics to electronic media like movies and DVDs. That seems like such a stretch. To me, the obvious comparison should be magazines.

Every week, Time and Newsweek send me 100 pages of new material, always on schedule. Every month Esquire puts out dozens of stories by world-famous authors, who I imagine must be paid at least as well as comic book writers. Sure, not every page includes art, but many do, and it seems to be increasing every year. Heck, look at that pariah of the internet, Wizard – the last issue had a full issue of Fantastic Four, part of an issue of Batman/Superman, and twenty other articles as well. And I could buy any of these for less than the price of two comics. In fact, since I subscribe to Esquire, I get it for even less than that, since they know they can rely on my business for the whole year.

Why doesn’t someone just take a magazine like Wizard, cull out all the articles and interviews, and insert more comics? The art would take longer, but you wouldn’t be under any of the time pressure a news magazine faces, so you could work months in advance.

Obviously the magazines I mentioned have much larger circulations, but is this a cause or effect? I subscribe to a lot of magazines I barely read, but for $12 a year, who cares? I also get a lot of magazines for my kids that are largely mediocre, like Nick Jr. or Big Backyard, but it makes them happy, and again, it's chump change. If I could get all the Superman titles in one monthly magazine for $2.95, I’d subscribe in a second, and so would a lot more people than currently visit their neighborhood comics stores.

So, what is the factor I’m overlooking? Are artists and writers just too expensive? Do comics require a different printing process than, say, Stuff? Or are we just convinced there's no market for it, regardless of how we package it now?

My firm belief is that this trend will at some point blow itself to bits as was the case with the multiple cover fads of the early 90s, but it will do so much quicker if only for the reason that it's one thing to budget for 10 or 15 comic books per week whereas it's quite another to budget for some 10 to 15 Manga or other trades per week (and yes, they're already coming out that fast and promising to increase throughout this year!).

I don't see the logic behind this statement. First of all, manga cover a much wider range of interests than most mainstream American comics. Very few people would feel obliged to buy every single one--any more than they'd feel obliged to buy every new paperback book, or every CD, or see every movie. (Or buy every superhero comic, for that matter.)

Secondly, trade collections aren't periodicals, they're books. A buyer can wait much longer to buy a title without worrying that it'll vanish from under their nose.

As for the idea that publishers should wait X amount of time before releasing a trade of a series: I don't like the idea of a hard and fast rule here. Yes, there are cases where this would be a good idea; but there have also been cases where an "instant collection" was the best thing possible. Case in point: Sandman.

DC released the trade paperback of "The Doll's House" the month after the storyline wrapped up in the comic. This allowed them to a) cash in on strong buzz from a very positive article in "Rolling Stone," and b) attract readers who could then buy the next issue off the stands. This was a pretty key move in establishing the comic's success. (If they'd waited six months, the paperback would have come out a few chapters into "Season of Mists," which would have been a much worse jumping-on point.)

Now, I don't think that they should have continued to release every paperback that quickly. But in cases where a book generates strong interest quickly (that could be lost if there isn't a good jumping-on point available), then I don't think a quick reprint of some sort should be ruled out.

Luigi Novi: Yeah, imagine that. Imagine shopping around for something, and wanting to be able to purchase when I actually step foot in a store, and not want to get it piecemeal. Why, the utter nerve of me!

skrinq: Can understand the misperception here. Likely it is more due to a lack of clarity in my comment than anything else.

What was being referred to in 'the thrill of the hunt' was the obtaining of missed, sold out, back or out-of-print issues, which often cannot all be found at any one location. Conventions help in this type of search as well, as having multiple retailers under one roof allows one a better opportunity to find each issue on one trip.

Of course your statement is valid and true. That is (ostensibly) one of the purposes of trades - to make the entire story avialable in one package for those who want it in that form.

As to whether any specific one of the scores of trades that come out each month is actually in stock in a given location for walk-in patrons, though, is another matter - one partially affected by perceived demand prior to publication and also word of mouth. No comics shop can (or should) carry every single item that is published, but any decent shop should offer the ability to special order any not in-stock item and to make every effort to get it in a timely fashion.

A side question occurs to me, too. With their higher price points, the trade format (thinking more along the lines of the manga books here) take a greater financial toll on the bottom line if a theoretical location were to try to keep all back numbers available (the same holds true, to an extent for publishers keeping all back numbers in print and warehoused). What's going to happen 2, or 5 years down the line if people want to 'catch up' with a series they've just discovered?

In this case, it would seem that the standard format comics hold a slight advantage, as they are (generally) more readily available, and at a lower per-item price point.

The point made not far above about comics subsidizing the costs of trades (which are, essentially, reprints) is a good one.

If anywhere along the line I have given the impression that those who prefer trades (including the "I'll wait for the trade" crowd) are wrong - that is not the case. It is just a different mindset, and such decisions are valid - but in an industry with such a small gross audience, each of those decisions added together does have some consequence - letting your retailer know of your decision, while not an obligation, and neither required nor expected, is always a good thing - it allows him/her to adjust orders for upcoming issues and to have a baseline, however tenuous, to refer to when it comes time to order the trade.

As for the scheduling of printing trades - there will always be situations that are exceptions to any rule. It just seems that the immediate (or close to immediate) release, as a matter of course, of trades serves to further cheapen the status of the monthlies.

You're reading too much into that statement. Peter's sentiment was, "If you choose not to support the monthly, don't be too surprised if that book you enjoyed doesn't sell well enough to warrant that trade paperback." At least that's what I got out of it.

I didn't read it that way, because I thought that would have been blatantly self-evident.

You'd think that, wouldn't you. To me, the statement is blatantly self-evident (and correctly restated above). Which is why I'm flabbergasted that people insist on skewing it into totally different meanings which are not only NOT self-evident, but blatantly idiotic, and then attribute the idiotic sentiments to me.

PAD

It just seems to me that the immediate (or close to immediate) release, as a matter of course, of trades serves to further cheapen the status of the monthlies.

I agree; it shouldn't be a matter of course. I just wanted to supply a counter to the more extreme point of view that there should be a mandatory minimum length before releasing a collection.

It just seems to me that the immediate (or close to immediate) release, as a matter of course, of trades serves to further cheapen the status of the monthlies.

Why does the monthly format deserve special consideration? If the majority of customers shift to a different format (and I'm not saying that this is the case right now), the publishers should adapt and the monthly format should be forced to change or die. This is a good thing and exactly the way the market should work, imo.

I find that I can't afford comics anymore. I buy your New Frontier novels and a lot of the Star Trek Books. They have completely replaced my monthly comics reading. The trades I have bought usually contain material from Marvel's 70's and 80's era.

I find I just can't get into them anymore because the stories recycle themselves. With a Trek book at least I get to read about good characters and with New Frontier the characters change.

I just can't buy like I used to. I work two jobs and don't invest in something that's going to sit on the shelf forever without being read.

On the subject of Star Trek novels

the only ones now I get are the DS9 ones, New Frontier and any of the E book novels of the S.C.E. series....Next Generation and the A Time To series ..I am going to pass on this because I know the characters aren't going to change..

I remember about 6 years ago when my local comic shop closed. It was located in a bad section of town and the other one I could go to had terrible parking. After changing jobs I didn't have the money I used to and it wasn't worth it. So the way I continued to see my favorites like PAD is my local bookstore...

For me, it's simple.

When the comic book industry starts printing stories geared for the monthly installment format again, I'll start buying the monthlies again.

I got tired of seeing a story that could've fit in two issues get spread over seven issues just so that it could be published as a TPB. When I plop down my hard-earned money on something, I want to enjoy a full story not a "Part 4 of 7" story.

When they start putting complete, self-contained stories with a single 22-pages comic, I'll stop buying the TPBs and start buying the monthlies. And if that means the titles fail due to low sales, well, that's just too bad.

The other day I bought a TPB of Frank Miller's "Born Again" storyline. There was more story in those few issues than Brian Michael Bendis' entire 25-issues run of Daredevil has contained. If Marvel was doing "Born Again" today, it'd take up ten TPBs this time around. That's just sad.

Sorry it sucks for you, Peter David, but I'm spending the money to support your lifestyle. I'm spending the money to enterain myself.

To the best of my memory, Peter was the second comics writer to appear on what became the Internet (i.e. I consider ARPAnet and Usenet [due to its quick linkage to ARPAnet] with a side of BITNET and CSNet to be what evolved into the Internet; BBS systems, Compuserve and Prodigy prior to hooking up the Internet, most Fidonet boards aren't part of the evolution). Henry Vogel of the Southern Knights beat him out by just a bit. [Insert my standard "If Usenet had registration numbers, mine would have two digits" online experience/longevity comment; ARPAnet goes back to 1969, Usenet to 1980].

So far, unless you count Endless Nights as a continuation of Sandman the series, I don't think that there's been an original US or manga comics series that exists solely as trades; keep in mind that the manga series we're seeing has already made its costs back and more in the original Japanese manga and its collections (and often anime adaptation). I was told by a very reliable source at last year's San Diego that a particular series had been kept alive by trades (i.e. it wasn't profitable as a monthly series, but combined with trades it was), and I believe Dave Sim has said something similar about Cerebus for the last few years. But so far, no one's actually shown that doing a series only in trades, particularly from the start, would result in a profitable series.

Waiting month after month to finish one storyline is way too much of a hassle. I don't get into the fascination of waiting and waiting for the next installment. Been there, done that. :)

I like reading stories from start to finish so, I'll take TBP any day of the week.

(mho)

This is going back a dozen or so posts....

Regarding the Firefly on DVD thing: I think, with the popularity of the show, it very well might have gotten the DVD treatment even sans Whedon. It might not have gotten as nice a treatment, but it still might have made it out.

Look at the Clerks animated series. Look at the live action Tick. Added together, those two lasted fifteen episodes. And they both made it out to DVD before Firefly did.

The Critic's about to come out on DVD; it lasted a little longer (on two networks) but not long. The Ben Stiller Show, a failed series from a dozen years ago, just came out on DVD. Longer lived (though still short-lived) series like Futurama and the Family Guy have come out.

The TV show/DVD comparison may actually not be a bad one. The sales of the DVD have probably revived Family Guy in some form; the same thing will probably happen with a TPB at somepoint. You could make the argument (debatable, to be sure) that the renewed interest in the Squadron Supreme following Kingdom Come would never have happened without the TPB being republished. It went from being a semi-obscure maxi-series (revered in certain circles, to be sure) to being mentioned frequently alongside Watchmen and DKR.

(quote)Why does the monthly format deserve special consideration? If the majority of customers shift to a different format (and I'm not saying that this is the case right now), the publishers should adapt and the monthly format should be forced to change or die. This is a good thing and exactly the way the market should work, imo. (unquote)

Special consideration? Perhaps not.

Consideration? Absolutely.

Because that is the form in which new and original material is (currently) most efficaciously presented, and because that format often yet provides a profit (smaller perhaps in a historical sense, but real nontheless).

The market, as always, will respond, albeit however slowly, to the whims and tastes of the consumer.

Realistically, how many new series would likely get off the ground if, sight unseen, the only format they was offered in was a 100-plus page trade at a higher price point?

A poor analogy would be that the standard format is somewhat akin to the pilot of a TV series, and the monthlies to further episodes. The trades could be construed to be akin to the tapes/DVD boxed sets, assuming they repesent an archival approach to the series, rather than just reprinting selected story arcs.

There does seem to be a quantum shift in audience desires going on - from the "I want it now" train of thought to more of an "I want it all" one.

I'm another one who just can't manage monthly comics at this point. I have limitations on space, and I need things to go on bookshelves rather than special bookshelves. Furthermore, since I'm a freelance writer, I only have money to spend on comics (and similar luxuries) 4-6 times a year, and at erratic intervals at that.

There's also the aesthetic issue: I just plain prefer books to floppy reading material. This applies to magazines just as much as it does to comics; I only buy specific issues of magazines once in a while, and look for alternative means of access to the articles or illustrations I care about whenever I can. They're easier for me to hold and to keep looking nice after multiple readings, and I try to buy as little as possible that I don't expect to want to re-read multiple times.

I'm very sorry if it's not feasible for some publishers to offer material in a format I can in practical terms afford to buy and that I want to buy. But unless someone can grant me a regular stipend and handle all the other issues involved, individual comics just aren't for me.

I think those who work in the industry should be able say what they feel on such matters. For most, it's more than the way that they make a living, but something that they love to do.

I prefer to buy the single issues for the fact that the few comic books that I buy anymore are ones that I really enjoy. Because of that, I can't wait to get the next issue. Due to being busy, I missed the first ish of "Formerly the Justice League." But I refused to wait for the trade, because I just had to see Giffen and Maguire revisiting those characters again.

Another factor is the fact that, unless it's a title related to a big franchise or "hip" (people in black shiny outfits stabbing people in the face or having sex a lot), you almost have to fight to keep your favorite titles on shelves. passing up the single issues and waiting for the trades only kills it on the top 100 list, which everyone seems to go by. As corny as it may sound, buying the single issues is how I vote for what books I like.

Er, sorry for the long post.

I'm old school... I'm a supporter of monthly comics. While I understand trades are more profitable for the creators, and maybe more convenient for fans, I'm a guy who needs my fix every month.

Now, Pete's gonna shoot me... I'm two years behind on Captain Marvel, and I'm just now getting around to catching up, in between doing my own comics and working a fulltime job. But I wouldn't have kept buying them if I didn't have all the confidence in the world that Pete's got a helluva story going, and that eventually I'd get the time to read'em.

PAD you give people the opportunity to comment there will always be a percentage who are not positive. But by giving them the opportunity to talk you are better then they are because they most likely do not give you personal access to a place they created for comment.

This is a proble suffered by musicians, actors, writers and so on. It can't be helped people are mean when they feel unknown.

With that in mind here is a link to a new single... feel free to pass opinion.

http://www.mp3.com.au/shortround/

Let's take an extreme position on the pro-TPB side to illustrate another point.

Assume a book has a base audience of 20,000 fans. All of them buy the monthly, and when DC puts out the TPB, let's say it only sells 2,000 copies to new and curious readers. As a result of low sales, a second trade is not made, because there weren't enough fans "waiting for the trade". Without a TPB program acting as a promotional tool, new fans don't discover the books, and the book's audience slowly erodes with time.

But what if 5,000 of those fans had "waited for the trade"--15,000 being above DC's cancellation point. Intial orders for the trade will be high, because of WFTT's pre-orders. Suddenly, the couple of thousand in sales to new readers (as in the previous hypothetical scenario) couple with 5,000 WFTTs, and you have a successful TPB program. As a result, successive trades are planned, and with a vibrant trade program, new fans are consistently finding the title, offsetting sales erosion (perhaps increasing them as new fans jump on the monthly), all in addition to the successful TPB program. This is basically every current Vertigo title except Y and Fables.

PAD's right in saying that the "wait for the trade" mentality is another hurdle for creators to jump over, although the sales decline prior to the recent TPB boon was an even *bigger* one. If they make the jump, if they can justify a comprehensive TPB program, the rewards are far greater than what exists *without* a TPB program. And, annoying as it may be, you need folks waiting for the trade if you expect to have a comprehensive TPB program to promote the monthly.

In time, if TPBs continue to grow in popularity, they may be able to support themselves without a monthly... but right now they're symbiotic. Healthy monthly sales lead to TPBs, and a comprehensive TPB program usually leads to higher monthly sales. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Realistically, how many new series would likely get off the ground if, sight unseen, the only format they was offered in was a 100-plus page trade at a higher price point?

A poor analogy would be that the standard format is somewhat akin to the pilot of a TV series, and the monthlies to further episodes. The trades could be construed to be akin to the tapes/DVD boxed sets, assuming they repesent an archival approach to the series, rather than just reprinting selected story arcs.

Actually, I see it more like a series of novels. How many months pass between the publishing of each Pern novel? How about the Wheel of Time series or even the next Star Trek novel?

If each TPB is a self-contained story, I don’t see any reason why new material can’t be offered that way. I have yet to buy a single issue of the Ultimate titles but I have all of the trades. I like having the entire story at my fingertips. I read Preacher this way as well as JSA, the Dark Knight Strikes Back, Green Arrow and LXG. I don’t mind waiting a while between issues because I have the others show up in the meantime.

This is also the reason I continue to pull older series out of my collection to read. I’m currently in the middle of the L.E.G.I.O.N. run and just recently read all of the Warlord, X-Men 94-175 (where the series ended for me), Next Men and Checkmate. They simply read better when read as a continuous story.

Besides, if we start comparing monthlies with television shows, I want my books to come out weekly.

I remember way back in 1976 when comics were a quarter. I used to buy them in a place called Ann's Coffee Shop. It was a place located next to a mini market where my parents shop each week.

Today the mini market is a paint shop and Ann's Coffee shop is a dancing studio ..well anyway my thing with the monthy comics is the stories try to copy what has been done in the movies and other media far too often.

Myself if I were updating the Marvel Comics I would reinvent them by having another generation of heros taking over for the new century. I would have Franklin Richards of the FF all grown and taking Reed's Role as Mr. Fantastic; the same for Ben and Johnny and Sue, the invisble woman...

Remember when DC updated their version of the Flash and Green Lantern of the Golden Age? The secret identities changed and new characters replaced them. The same has to been done with some of the major ones to update them.

(quote)Besides, if we start comparing monthlies with television shows, I want my books to come out weekly.(unquote)

Heck I'd be happy if television shows regularly came out weekly!

Remember when a season had 26 or 28 episodes (way back when, even 30 or more)?

Now, between the constant shuffling around of airtimes and days, pre-emptions, hiatuses, sweeps month 'events,' plus the insertion of re-runs at every possible opportunity, it has become a real drag to figure out when a new episode actually will air.

Well! Someone attacked and called me a liar! I am sooooo offended! Boo Hoo! What we need to see is the statement of ownership regarding Shonen Jump or the ABC numbers to get a clear picture of its sales. I can guarantee you that the 300,000 to 500,000 numbers are partly hype coming from the publisher. In fact, without verification, I suspect that they may include other editions, not just the North American English one. So if someone can find out the true circulation numbers, this would put the argument to rest. I find it very difficult to believe that ANY anthology in that format (and black and white yet!) would sell in those numbers in the North American market alone.

Next, the crack about "guilt trip". I read your other comments and you seem to be down on the comics market, comic shops, and possibly the world in general. My warning was not meant to elicit a guilt trip. It's TRUTH, because if the comics market goes and the comic specialty shops disappear, then there go many venues for those beloved tradebacks, because you were absolutely correct when you said something to the effect that there are more important things in the world to worry about. Many readers share that opinion because when those venues disappear it's a proven fact that a significant proportion of the patrons of those venues DO NOT BOTHER TO SEEK OUT ANOTHER SOURCE FOR THE PRODUCT. When the disastrous rationalization of the distribution system took place in 1995, fully half the existing comic specialty accounts disappeared. More than 60% of the customers who frequented those venues DID NOT SHIFT their buying patterns to other outlets. If they had, the huge drops in circulation would never have happened. If you doubt what I'm saying, eheck the charts from Comics and Games Retailer over the past seven years.

Another gentleman made mention of the fact that I did not include the cost of bags and boards for individual issues when comparing costs of a trade. Would you please stop being silly? Good grief!

Yet another individual cited his inability to understand my comment about budgetting for multiple pocket manga books. Well, in this market, whether you believe it or not, most readers will by definition be collectors, in that they will want to get each and every issue of these books that come out. When the quantity of these books gets to be OVERWHELMING, (and mark my words, it's headed in that direction), and a reader (that is COLLECTOR) of them sees that there are more titles than he or she can afford, it leads to a) confusion, and worse b) discouragement. This subsequently leads in many cases to giving up altogether, and hence the market suffers if enough people give up. Hence another "fad" disappears, possibly leaving many retailers holding the bag on all those unsold copies of all those manga titles, which if you don;t mind my saying so folks.....pretty much look alike. Sorry, that's gonna make lots of people mad, but it's true. They all share that one basic art style and frankly to me they are interchangeable! Besides, in case anyone didn't notice, lots of these books are being published on a MONTHLY SCHEDULE. They are the NEW MONTHLIES! Try and keep up with them at $9.95 a crack!

The argument was made that they cover all kinds of subject matter. Guess what? So do regular comic book format items as we currently know them! Surprise! How many of you have actually BEEN in a comics specialty shop recently? LOOK at the variety! Every age range, every genre! It's all there.

Look, forget all the arguing and the examples. The bottom line is this: Comic books as we know them, trade paperback collections, manga and other pocket comics should....in fact MUST.... co-exist in a symbiosis. By doing so, readers of every bent will be able to fulfill their desires to get the formats that appeal to them.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE INDUSTRY AS WE KNOW IT WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO GROW AND PROSPER. We must all do what we can to ensure that this happens.

I can guarantee you that the 300,000 to 500,000 numbers are partly hype coming from the publisher. In fact, without verification, I suspect that they may include other editions, not just the North American English one.

There are no other editions other than the American and Japanese version. If I remember correctly, Viz doesn't have the rights to distribute its books outside of North America, and has nothing to do with the production of the Japanese version, which sells 3 million copies a week.

Details of the sales of the US edition of Shonen Jump can be found here.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/3867.html

And you know what, even with a returns level of 40% that would still make it the best selling comic in America.

There are anecdotal reports of some places ordering large quantities of the Shonen Jump issues with the special card inserts, tossing the magazines and just stocking and selling the cards.

Those copies would represent sales for the publisher, but not to the public; if the tales have any truth to them, those 'sales' do somewhat skew the numbers.

There are anecdotal reports of some places ordering large quantities of the Shonen Jump issues with the special card inserts, tossing the magazines and just stocking and selling the cards.

Oh well, if it's anecdotal evidence it MUST be true!

So let's leave aside those issues and just concentrate on the regular ones then. Bumping the returns rate up to 50%, SJ would still have been the #2 best selling comic in December and November, and #3 in October.

But since Viz have had to increase their print run by 60% since they launched SJ, elementary math would suggest that their returns are actually at a level that would make them the best selling comic in America by a clear margin.

I would just like to chime in with this: I'm not a wait for trade reader. I like the monthly format. However, that format seems to have gone awry. The pacing and storytelling these days is too decompressed. TPB's don't have to contain one story. They can contain multiple stories with start-finish that fall within a larger arc. TPB's like "From the Ashes" and others demonstrate this. Today's trades read like one single long issue of a comic book and the monthlies were just that one story split up into installments. Yawn.

Hence another "fad" disappears, possibly leaving many retailers holding the bag on all those unsold copies of all those manga titles, which if you don;t mind my saying so folks.....pretty much look alike. Sorry, that's gonna make lots of people mad, but it's true. They all share that one basic art style and frankly to me they are interchangeable!

Ah. Clearly you've never actually read any manga, so it's hard to take your opinions here seriously.

The argument was made that they cover all kinds of subject matter. Guess what? So do regular comic book format items as we currently know them! Surprise! How many of you have actually BEEN in a comics specialty shop recently? LOOK at the variety! Every age range, every genre! It's all there.

And do many collectors try to buy every single American comic on the racks, or do they take advantage of that variety to shop around and buy what interests them? I don't think many people buy every manga because it's manga, any more than fans of books buy every book that comes out. Romance fans can buy romance manga; action fans can buy action manga. (But since you don't understand that there are different types of manga, I suppose this argument will fall on deaf ears. You sound like the people who assume that all American comics are lowest-common-denominator superhero slugfests...)

Hence another "fad" disappears, possibly leaving many retailers holding the bag on all those unsold copies of all those manga titles, which if you don;t mind my saying so folks.....pretty much look alike. Sorry, that's gonna make lots of people mad, but it's true. They all share that one basic art style and frankly to me they are interchangeable!

Ah. Clearly you've never actually read any manga, so it's hard to take your opinions here seriously.

Well said. I'd love to put a copy of say, "Planetes", "Battle Royale" and "GTO" in front of this guy and see if he's still willing to make that claim.

There are as many different art styles in Manga as there are in American comics, ranging from the virtually photorealistic to Disneyfied cartoony, to the big eyed, panty flashing, speed lined style that folks like Mr. Krolik associate with the form.

Manga is a medium not a genre, it's just a pity that until the last couple of years one portion of that medium represented 90% of everything that got translated into English.

Ooookay. So buying trades instead of individual comics is equivalent to stealing music. John Byrne, is that you?

Avi Green, is that you?

But hey, atleast you didn't accuse me of being a liar or anything else.

Just that I must be somebody I'm not.

Thanks!

(note the dripping sarcasm)

People will make any excuse when they want to be cheap.

And that's the jist of it with the comments I was replying to.

So what happens when you start to feel that TPB's are too expensive for you? Will you go looking for them on the net because that's the next cheapest way to get them?

"Elayne, have there been any new developments? Wouldn't any new report just consist of 'still not fixed, see previous article?' Not exactly the most compelling news..."

True, Ralf, but neither are the verbatim press releases run by news and print sites that sound like everything's swellerific and don't even address the subject any more (if they ever did; there were no "previous articles" to speak of in CBG, for instance). I bring it up whenever I can (short of being obnoxious about it, and I apologize to Peter for the momentary thread drift) because I've had more than a few freelancers and fans express surprise to me in e-mails that this is still going on - they figure if they haven't heard about it then everything's okay, and people have been paid. Nothing could be further from the truth. A lot of freelancers are seriously hurting because of these people, and in my opinion they don't deserve the unquestioning support of the press or the fans until they make good on their payments.

Waiting month after month to finish one storyline is way too much of a hassle.

So, you don't read alot of novel series, I take it?

Somebody mentioned Wheel of Time in an above post.

You're complaining about having to wait a few months for a storyline to finish. How would you like waiting YEARS for a series that looks like it will never end? :)

The thing I fear most about TPB's is that they are more time consuming and more expensive in the short term over the monthlies.

If a company makes a new comic solely in TPB form, and it bombs, they've likely thrown away more money than monthlies, because interest can be determined more immediately with the monthlies I'd imagine.

So you might actually see fewer new titles. It sounds extreme, but it's possible.

You also run the risk of lack of interest in having to wait months between new "issues" with the TPB's.

It's just part of the mentality, where people expect new material every month.

I've had more than a few freelancers and fans express surprise to me in e-mails that this is still going on - they figure if they haven't heard about it then everything's okay, and people have been paid.

Personally, I'm too cynical of most news organizations to take that viewpoint. I figure if I haven't heard anything about a problem, it's fallen through the cracks and nothing has been done. Blame the government...

(quote)Oh well, if it's anecdotal evidence it MUST be true!(unquote)

No.

It is anecdotal, not verified nor confirmed.

Note the qualifier 'if there is truth to these tales' in the original message.

Sheesh.

Has anyone looked at this "wait for the trade" attitude from an emotional angle? Maybe those fans with WFTT are emotionally jaded becuase they've been "dumped" too many times. Why get emotionally invested in a new series that may not last?

The TPB has become an indicator of whether a series is going to stick around. If a series gets a TPB, then it's probably safe for me to invest.

My list of slightly-off-beat-titles-but-very enjoyable-now-canceled series gets longer every year. Anyone remember:

Quantum & Woody, Aztek, Chronos, Chase, Major Bummer, Resurrection Man, Supergirl, The Ray, Slingers, Black Panther, The Crew, etc.

Those are just off the top my head.

Everybody has a list like this. If you retreat into your emotionally protective shell you'll miss out.

Publishers are no different. They don't want to give a book a chance, they can't afford to lose the money.

Ramblings will continue.....

Rather than explain why I prefer trades, I'll just say that I totally respect Peter's opinion, and I empathize with him, I really do. If I were in his shoes, I'd feel the exact same way.

And I'm glad there he's here online with us. It's great to interact with professionals, even when you don't see eye to eye with them.

By the way, I just want to note that a talented writer can write comics that will read well as both individual issues, and collected in trade form. That's sure the case with PAD's Captain Marvel. So I wish some folks wouldn't blame the trades for weaknesses in the writers.

Hey, Jerry Wall--prompted by your earlier message, I looked in on the TCJ columnist you mentioned, whose only comment about this thread is that I was still discussing the topic but that "nothing new" was being said. Which surprised me at first, but I guess having people call him an idiot and inaccurate isn't new to him.

PAD

See? I told you I'd make some people mad! OK, let's go at it again:

There are no other editions other than the American and Japanese version. If I remember correctly, Viz doesn't have the rights to distribute its books outside of North America, and has nothing to do with the production of the Japanese version, which sells 3 million copies a week.

It's good of Alex to point this out A more correct approach to the analysis would be how many of the English edition sell in North America versus how many sell, say in England or Europe. I'd like to confine the parameters to the North American market since that's where the phenomenons we're discussing seem to be concentrated.

Details of the sales of the US edition of Shonen Jump can be found here., etc

I reiterate: get the statement of ownership. That's the IcV2 article and it may be sourced from the promotion department of the magazine (no offense intended!)

There are anecdotal reports of some places ordering large quantities of the Shonen Jump issues with the special card inserts, tossing the magazines and just stocking and selling the cards.

Well, honestly I never considered the returns or the overstocks. I wonder how many copies are selling through. I can tell you our experience: #1 sold exceptionally well. We did close to 100 copies, counting reorders(retail sales only). #'s 2 though 5 maintained decent levels at 50 to 75 copies sellthrough (again retail sdales only). (Assuming some 3000 comic specialty retailers, that would put things at a healthy 150,000 if that could be an average number from big to small accounts. This would not count other outlets, so it's conceivable that half again that many might be sold, or even more. Now, #6 dropped like a rock, and so did #7. #8 (I believe that was the one with the CD), went back throiugh the roof. Since then sales have been lacklustre at best. Maybe 10 or 15, and we're not doing anything different than before. If that has held true for everyone, then there are many copies either langouring in back rooms or being returned (which doesn't affect the comic specialty store market because they are not returnable! Yet another advantage the chains get that hard working independents miss out on!) More on this immediately.

Ah. Clearly you've never actually read any manga, so it's hard to take your opinions here seriously.

Bad news: Not only do we read a representative sampling of every single title, but we also offer every single title, with maybe the odd exception of something like poorly selling Comicsone books or Celestial Zone, some of which I wouldn't really class as absolutely manga, but that's a separate subject. Have you any concept of what kind of inventory that entails right now, let alone six months from now??! We also read the Tokyopop samplers, the pre-release info we're made privy to which many of you might not be, the synopses in catalogues, and frankly anything else we can get our hands on, and that includes many of the art books which are released (which are honestly quite beautiful). Heck, we even read the HENTAI (Woah, baby!)Some of the books are quite frankly tough to follow, ostensibly because something may be lost in the translation. Some have holes in the continuity again probably caused by the change to English. An example I can cite since it's one that sticks: Vampire Game. Very tough to follow. And, despite what you may say, if you look at the art styles in most of the books, they do not significantly differ in the majority of cases.

Here: compare Will Eisner to Joe Kubert to Todd McFarlane to Alex Ross to Carmine Infantino to Dave Sim to Randy Green to Simon Bisley to Humberto Ramos to Leinil Yu to Dick Giordano to Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez to I don't know how many hundreds of others working in non-manga comics. They are all distinct. The manga artists in my opinion all have that underlying "cartoony" style, the same style that DC tried with Superman (AARGH!). Who stands out in Manga? For sure Shirow (he's my favorite), perhaps Clamp. definitely Kawaguchi (Eagle was an excellent series which was largely overlooked by many)and I dunno, maybe a couple of others, but for the most part, sorry.....they just look like similar styles.

And do many collectors try to buy every single American comic on the racks, or do they take advantage of that variety to shop around and buy what interests them?

The sad part here is that many really great series published independently never get the audience they deserve either because they are lost in the shuffle or because again, not everyone can afford everything, nor are they expected to. The difference is that in many of these cases we are referring to many different independent publishers each slogging away on a very few titles versus larger corporations who are quite frankly starting to flood the market with a great many titles. The market may embrace them in the short run, but the economics of the situation dictate that in the long run the market cannot and will not absorb them to the extent that needs to happen for sustainability at the much higher price point.

I don't think many people buy every manga because it's manga, any more than fans of books buy every book that comes out. Romance fans can buy romance manga; action fans can buy action manga. (But since you don't understand that there are different types of manga, I suppose this argument will fall on deaf ears. You sound like the people who assume that all American comics are lowest-common-denominator superhero slugfests...)

I perfectly understand that there are different types of Manga. Remember, we read 'em. But that argument refers to STORY. I'm referring to ART. It's true that people have choice. But in the case of Manga we've observed an interesting phenomenon which you actually allude to: namely readers who buy for example ROMANCE Manga want to buy ALL Romance Manga. And so on. I have watched this day to day because I'm often put in the "which one would you choose?" dilemma when a person can't afford them all. It's frustrating to the customer. Want more frustration? Try not having all issues of a Manga title available constantly. I have seen many times where a potential reader will not buy a volume 2 of a Manga title without the volume 1, even though the former likely has a synopsis of the latter! Then they wait for the first one to show up on reorder, the second one sells to someone else, and the first customer complains that there's no stock!! Want some more frustration? OK, I'll bet what's MOST frustrating to many retailers is that the majority of the fans of Manga are FEMALE and when they come in, they go DIRECTLY for the Manga, select what they can, and then DIRECTLY check out. Wouldn't it be something if we could get them to look at the other stuff they're missing!? But they don't even notice. They don't even WANT to notice. Now THAT'S frustrating!! As to the last crack about slugfests, I'm actually the kind of comics fan who leans towards the likes of Gardner Fox, John Broome, Stan Lee, Garth Ennis, Brian Michael Bendis, many others, and yes, PETER DAVID who can craft a story within 24 pages that has MEAT on its bones, a plausible hook, terrific character development, a basis in scientific fact, great humor, and terrific plot devices and advancement. So there! Nyahh!

Well said. I'd love to put a copy of say, "Planetes", "Battle Royale" and "GTO" in front of this guy and see if he's still willing to make that claim.

Sorry Simon. Read 'em all. Better would be some of the examples I cite above.

There are as many different art styles in Manga as there are in American comics, ranging from the virtually photorealistic to Disneyfied cartoony, to the big eyed, panty flashing, speed lined style that folks like Mr. Krolik associate with the form.

See my remarks above. There you go looking at Hentai again. Naughty boy!

Manga is a medium not a genre, it's just a pity that until the last couple of years one portion of that medium represented 90% of everything that got translated into English.

Actually the word almost literally tarnslates into "comics" from the Japanese. Comics are a medium. The Manga style of comics is a genre within that medium, just as the superhero style of comics is a genre within that medium. Your last comment may be a fair one, so I'd like to see what lies in store for future translation.

Well, let's see tomorrow who I teed off with this set of rebuttals.

I really like the serial nature of comics and "staying tuned" for another exciting issue, but I've given up on collecting most Marvel monthlies because the advertising is so, so frustrating. Page of artwork, page of ads, page of artwork, page of ads. I once sat down and went through an issue of Daredevil with a friend and I wish I could remember the number of actual sequential pages of artwork we tallied - something very low. It's like having a television show interrupted every five minutes with a commercial.

Not to mention the ads themselves - it's mega dissonance to be reading this fairly sophisticated crime drama on alternate pages and the rest of the time have to skim over insulting anti-tobacco ads, promos for kids' toys and cereals, the occasional sexist video game ad, and so on. I know that they're trying to reach their main target markets, but it makes me feel out of place. Sometimes I wish they really would get their act together and figure out what should be marketed to kids and what should be marketed to adults and then assign the ads correspondingly.

A more correct approach to the analysis would be how many of the English edition sell in North America versus how many sell, say in England or Europe. I'd like to confine the parameters to the North American market since that's where the phenomenons we're discussing seem to be concentrated.

I already did. The American Jump is the ONLY English version available ANYWHERE, as far as I know, and Viz can't sell it anywhere except North America. So when they show their sales figures, that's it. That's all confined to NA.

Well, honestly I never considered the returns or the overstocks. I wonder how many copies are selling through. I can tell you our experience...

Ah, the old "if it's not selling here, it must not be selling anywhere" logic. Dirk Deppey has a pretty hefty response to that.

And I hate to tell you this, but comic stores are about the last place most people would find Shonen Jump. It's much easier to get it at a drug store, grocery store (I've even found Raijin there), video store, bookstore, or music store. Is it any wonder why the book barely registers on Diamond's lists?

I have seen many times where a potential reader will not buy a volume 2 of a Manga title without the volume 1, even though the former likely has a synopsis of the latter!

Considering most manga series are self-contained, finite stories, it doesn't make sense to expect people to start in the middle of the storyline. It's not like American comics where you have multiple story arcs and "jumping-on" points. When you're investing in a series, you're investing in the whole series.

Then they wait for the first one to show up on reorder, the second one sells to someone else, and the first customer complains that there's no stock!! Want some more frustration?

You know, this is probably one reason why the bulk of manga sales are in bookstores. They go out of their way to keep different volumes of manga in stock and keep multiple volumes on the shelves, and reorder when they sell out.

OK, I'll bet what's MOST frustrating to many retailers is that the majority of the fans of Manga are FEMALE

Wait...that's a BAD thing?

and when they come in, they go DIRECTLY for the Manga, select what they can, and then DIRECTLY check out. Wouldn't it be something if we could get them to look at the other stuff they're missing!? But they don't even notice. They don't even WANT to notice. Now THAT'S frustrating!!

Because you're not there to give the customers what YOU want. You're there to give them what THEY want. I mean, you're complaining over the fact that females are coming into your store and buying your product? Most retail outlets would be THRILLED to sell ANY of their stock.

You said manga's a fad that'll burn out, and you keep comparing it to the speculation craze. Have you by chance read Steven Grant's column from last week? He explains things far more clearly and knowledgably than I ever could. In fact, this week's column has this
COMMENT:

"A woman I know who used to work in Marvel editorial just got a job teaching, and when she announced to one of her classes – eighth graders – that she used to work at Marvel, one student said, to general consensus, "Their comics suck."

The good news is that there doesn't seem to be any stigma anymore to being a kid and publicly admitting you read comics. The bad news should be self-evident."

And on that note, here's a thread of manga fans responding to Grant's column, essentially expressing all their grievances with Marvel, DC, and the whole system of American comics.

"Not to be insensitive, but really, what is the point here?

--Skring

I think your reply has to do more with tact in parts per se rather than insensitivity, nice try though. I’d have appreciated a simple, “Care to elaborate on?” or “I don’t understand what you mean when you wrote…”

So why did you bother to answer at length then?

So I gather from you it’s a matter of perspective with you being a retailer whereas I am not one. I am in no way decrying my loss of comic’s worth/value. Perhaps you thought so because I mentioned a $50 amount of comics I didn’t need any longer. If I felt that way I’d have brought up how I got rid of all my Marvel comics in the 90s at a lost after the spectator boom. Indeed I’m aware how retailers continually struggle with stock that won’t turn out to buyer, it’d take some nerve of me to compare.

My point was not exactly about having material no one wanted and I couldn’t pawn off, but the thought of buying something (in support) twice, a subject, which came up on this interesting topic. I cited examples where I did this only to wind with a reject book. I don’t think that’s irrelevant. I had many ideas on this discussion and tried to post asap so I apologize for my lack of clarity or poor string of thoughts. Further, it was brought up in a post prior to mine how one could trade in single issues for the TPB, but I illustrated a point where that does NOT (always) happen. It’d kind of be cool though, if folks wishing to, could trade them evenly, in some cases be it with their comic shop or direct from the publisher.

I do like how PAD offered to sign his sig for fans doing SASE. Although, when I think of people doing that sort of thing I normally imagine they’d want it personalized—not to make a quick auction sale.

I also didn’t get a chance to mention how I’ve noticed some poor decisions with manga graphic novels where they’re inconsistent with advertised chronology, such as: Maison Ikkoku going from numbers to strictly titles. BOTI was a pain to convert, easily, the singles to trade due to all the mini-chapters (1 of 6, type thing) versus just a numbered sequence (1,2,3…). The point here was also how all the publisher’s tend to have printing issues; I wasn’t picking on just one company in case anyone, by chance, thought I was.

I forgot to mention how Hellboy has directors cuts in its TPB with revised artwork too, and that’s a cool perk. I think someone else already mentioned it. Ah, there are just so many variables, but I’ve found the dialogue on this subject most interesting and many folks brought up things I hadn’t considered before like how/why TPBs, in some cases, tend to be more cost effective for the buyer.

To Alex Scott:

Thanks for takoing some of my points and responding to them. My turn:

Firstly, why would Viz only be allowed to sell an English book in North America? That doesn't make sense considering there are places like Australia, England, and New Zealand (to name but three) that I'm told have some pretty good-sized English-speaking populations.

Ah, the old "if it's not selling here, it must not be selling anywhere" logic.

And I hate to tell you this, but comic stores are about the last place most people would find Shonen Jump. It's much easier to get it at a drug store, grocery store (I've even found Raijin there), video store, bookstore, or music store. Is it any wonder why the book barely registers on Diamond's lists?

Ok, but we're discussing the Manga phenomenon and the trades phenomenon in comic specialty stores. Therefore what you say above confirms what I've been saying: the darn thing doesn't sell in those venues. Worse, it means there's a significant population that we are not reaching! If that population could be reached and directed to comic specialty retailers, I suspect that a significant sales uptick for BOTH manga and comic-format books would be the result, as well as the resultant economic boost. Comics specialty retailers need to reach this audience and we need help from the poublishers and distributor to do it...and I'm not just talking about restrictive co-op ad programs. But I digress.....

Considering most manga series are self-contained, finite stories, it doesn't make sense to expect people to start in the middle of the storyline.

Huh? If the first half of your sentence is correct, then the second half doesn't make sense. If they are that self-contained, anyone should be able to jump on with any issue. In fact, we've found most Manga to be very continuitive (is that a word?)

You know, this is probably one reason why the bulk of manga sales are in bookstores. They go out of their way to keep different volumes of manga in stock and keep multiple volumes on the shelves, and reorder when they sell out.

That's exactly what we do, but more often than not, the timing of reorders is such that invariably someone comes in while the books are in transit. Annoying but true. In fact, I'll put our stock of over 1,000 Manga and Trades against any chain bookstore. However, the majority of comic specialty retailers do not have that depth.

Because you're not there to give the customers what YOU want. You're there to give them what THEY want. I mean, you're complaining over the fact that females are coming into your store and buying your product? Most retail outlets would be THRILLED to sell ANY of their stock.

Well, firstly, you split my sentence to make it seem I don't like Female fans. Absolutely the opposite. Now, I agree with the above, but you're also there to advise clients on what they MIGHT enjoy if they tried some. But tunnelvision prevails. Independent alternate comics publishers go nuts when they hear about cases like the ones I cite. And I feel their agony, believe me. Think how much healthier the overall market would be if some of those readers would be turned on to some of the independents and become as fanatic about them.

You said manga's a fad that'll burn out, and you keep comparing it to the speculation craze.

Actually, I'm just comparing glut to glut. The underlying reason for the glut is irrelevant because all gluts eventually lead to the same result. I will get to that analysis you cite in the next day or two. Thanks.

Again, I want to reiterate: Manga will alwasy be a viable portion of the market. But it won't be the DOMINANT portion in a healthy market. Tradebacks will always be a viable portion of the market, but if we want to sustain that market, they also should not be dominant portion. The comic-book format in North America has always driven the market and will continue to do so in that market. All the formats need to live in a symbiotic relationship for the entire market to prosper.

I did in fact hit the Steve Grant column and the replies.

Interesting that I espouse (without knowing in advance what he had written) many of the points that he refutes....and many of the points I just made above. We must be psychic.

The most interesting thing though is the replies column, which basically hits the problem on the head:

Y'see, (and if I sound like a dinosaur here I'm sorry...I'm a dinosaur!) back in the 1960s and 1970s (I don't think current comics are mired there at all as another writer above seemed to intimate), we had writers like Stan Lee and John Broome and Gardner Fox and Otto Binder who could craft a complete, COMPELLING, ENTErTAINING comic book story into 26 pages or less. Nowadays, plots are drawn out over multiple issues. (Yes, I know I'm gonna contradict some of the examples of great writing I cite in my previous postings. Just go with me for a minute.)

So in the "good old days", comics cost anywhere from 12 to 15 cents all the way up to 35 cents, and contained those stories. So what's the real cost of a comic book story nowadays? Is it $2.25. Nope. It's usually $12 to $15 or more, WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE BUYING THE TRADE.

And there my friends is the REAL problem in American comic book format publications!

Now, a few years ago DC brought out a "reminiscent" series called Silver Age. And weren't they great? They showed that writers today can write just like the ones back in the good old days, crafting a complete and compelling story in about 24 to 26 pages in a single book.

So why don't they do great storylines like the good old days nowadays, and give you something for your $2.25 a crack?

And before someone tells me I'm living in the past, in the past a poorly selling title would be cancelled in those good old days at sales of around 70 to 75 thousand. Today publishers dream of such circulations for many titles that barely reach 25 thousand!

Manga titles do exactly that. But they do it still at a $9.95 price point, and believe me when I tell you that the publishers of those books are laughing all the way to the bank, because the costs of production of small-size books like that are MINIMAL compared to the ending retail price!

American and Canadian publishers....wake up and find a way to give readers a better value for dollar ratio than this and you will solve your own problems very very quickly because thw word will spread very very quickly.

Ach.....I'm just getting frustrated again. And I do love comic books so much. Honestly I do folks......

Firstly, why would Viz only be allowed to sell an English book in North America? That doesn't make sense considering there are places like Australia, England, and New Zealand (to name but three) that I'm told have some pretty good-sized English-speaking populations.

Because they only hold the North American rights and not the English-speaking rights. This was also recently an issue with the various licensed 80s properties like Transformers and GIJoe.

Huh? If the first half of your sentence is correct, then the second half doesn't make sense. If they are that self-contained, anyone should be able to jump on with any issue. In fact, we've found most Manga to be very continuitive (is that a word?)

They are self-contained in that there are five volumes of Adolf, and that's it. Forever. No other reading of any other books is necessary. There are 6 volumes of Akira, and that's it. Forever. Compare that to the thousands and thousands of Spider-Man comics that have appeared through the years, which, even if they were all collected, would span many more volumes than most manga.

That's exactly what we do, but more often than not, the timing of reorders is such that invariably someone comes in while the books are in transit. Annoying but true.

I don't really see what the problem is here. The customer is right for wanting to look for the volumes in sequence instead of feeling forced to buy a later volume that is currently in stock while waiting for a more recent volume to be restocked. The store is right for stocking all the volumes in the first place, and if one happens to be unavailable at any given moment due to the vagaries of the retail business, the best that can be done is to offer to reserve one for the customer when they come in and give them a call to let them know it has arrived. The customer, of course, is free to decline and search elsewhere. None of this should be causing any frustration to either side.

Now, I agree with the above, but you're also there to advise clients on what they MIGHT enjoy if they tried some. But tunnelvision prevails. Independent alternate comics publishers go nuts when they hear about cases like the ones I cite. And I feel their agony, believe me. Think how much healthier the overall market would be if some of those readers would be turned on to some of the independents and become as fanatic about them.

If they're that "tunnelvisioned," have you tried offering them a money-back guarantee on some trade that you're very certain they're likely to enjoy?

The comic-book format in North America has always driven the market and will continue to do so in that market.

I see no reason to believe that it must be the driving format. It's all up to the customers, and if they decide that format is no longer desirable, it will adapt or die.

Quick replies.

Self-contaiend means one story in one book. The more correct term would have been multi-part finite series. Incidentally, some of them are pretty large series. ranma comes to mind immediately.

The customer is right for wanting to look for the volumes in sequence instead of feeling forced to buy a later volume that is currently in stock while waiting for a more recent volume to be restocked.

Right. except the customer complains when the later volume is then out of stock even as the earlier one is restocked. The retailer cannot win. The customer often can't be convinced to get the later volume and hold on to it while waitiung for the earlier one, so as to avoid the problem. The customer often says it has something to do with willpower about reading it or something like that. It's silly, but true. And that is indeed very frustrating.

If they're that "tunnelvisioned," have you tried offering them a money-back guarantee on some trade that you're very certain they're likely to enjoy?

Do it all the time. 80% of that time the customer declines. The other 20% accept. That's tunnelvision folks. We've had exactly one, count it...ONE dissatisfied reaction over the years.

I see no reason to believe that it must be the driving format. It's all up to the customers, and if they decide that format is no longer desirable, it will adapt or die.

That's a fair comment, but remember what I said earlier: when the comic book format disappears, all specialty shops become by default "just another independent bookstore". Right now those types of stores are disappearing due to the influence of the chains and other mass marketers. There are a few exceptions, but not many. Wouldn't it be a shame if it became a self-fulfilling prophecy? Then you and everyone else could moan about what might have been. Let's try and avoid that situation, shall we?

Do it all the time. 80% of that time the customer declines. The other 20% accept. That's tunnelvision folks. We've had exactly one, count it...ONE dissatisfied reaction over the years.

Tunnelvision is fairly normal. I remember my days in a shop, and getting a Marvel Zombie to even consider buying a book with a DC bullet on the cover (much less a Indy) was next to impossible.

Once people get locked in on a certain type of comic, they tend to want to focus on like-minded stuff. Manga fans want manga comics. Vertigo fans want Vertigo comics. Super-hero fans want super-hero comics. Considering the amount of manga available these days, you can easily keep the manga tunnelvisioners buying from your store.

I still remember the SANDMAN fans, who came in *solely* for SANDMAN, and there was precious little you could even mildly tempt them with... maybe Alan Moore's SWAMP THING or HELLBLAZER or an outside chance with CEREBUS. It was a really, really thin slice of the market back then. A few months back, I ran into a woman in a bookstore who was a big SANDMAN fan, and I able to rattle off half a dozen titles she might find interesting without even thinking hard.

A few months back, I ran into a woman in a bookstore who was a big SANDMAN fan, and I able to rattle off half a dozen titles she might find interesting without even thinking hard.

The most obvious being LUCIFER...

Right. except the customer complains when the later volume is then out of stock even as the earlier one is restocked. The retailer cannot win. The customer often can't be convinced to get the later volume and hold on to it while waitiung for the earlier one, so as to avoid the problem. The customer often says it has something to do with willpower about reading it or something like that. It's silly, but true. And that is indeed very frustrating.

I don't think it's silly. I don't think it's reasonable to try and get a customer to pick up a later volume without having the earlier sequential volume. As for them complaining when the first comes in and the second isn't there, have you held the second book for them while the first is being restocked?

This is a fascinating discussion -- I was pointed here by someone who highlighted the fan/creator relationship questions, but folks seem to be focusing on the comics-culture issues instead.

That said, as someone who didn't grow up reading comics, the idea of going to a specialized shop once a month for a tiny little pamphlet I finish reading in minutes (and kind of pricey at that), then repeating that move for months so I can get the whole story... nah. I tried it with one series I was particularly interested in, and got about two issues in before I tired of having to wait a full month for the next story installment, not to mention the realization that there was no easy way to get hold of back issues. So I waited for the TPB and bought that. Maybe I lack some essential comics-fan ingredient; all I know is that I enjoy reading stories all at once in easy-to-handle-and-store formats.

Oh, one other point, since we're going on about meal tickets -- I'm a professor. Once in awhile I assign TPBs (or, as I tell my colleagues, "graphic novels") for reading in undergraduate classes. Academic sales are a potentially huge market for some types of comics, but they pretty much depend on the availability of a book.

That said, as someone who didn't grow up reading comics, the idea of going to a specialized shop once a month for a tiny little pamphlet I finish reading in minutes (and kind of pricey at that), then repeating that move for months so I can get the whole story... nah. I tried it with one series I was particularly interested in, and got about two issues in before I tired of having to wait a full month for the next story installment, not to mention the realization that there was no easy way to get hold of back issues.

Monthly comic reading is a bit of a hobbyist medium--and I don't say that as an insult, having spent over a decade happily collecting comics before switching over to the more convient TPBs. It really shouldn't come as too big of a surprise that those who don't grow up inside the hobby find our ways more than a bit perplexing.

I sort of get the sense the industry is growing into something else. The 22-page comic may not survive, but the TPB may not be the format that surpasses it... we could see a return to anthology magazines (SHONEN JUMP) or toward digest-sized graphic novels (the most popular manga format). For all we know, the TPB may die out, only to be replaced by the cheaper digests.

And it is pretty gratifying to see the quality material the industry has been putting out the past few decades finding their way into the hands of outsiders. Although if teachers insist on making students read comics, then how are kids going to enjoy them? :)

(From the shadows of the Dom in Koeln -- )

P., my old comrade, and sharer of my husband's name --

Re: the "How dare you be a Pro (unspoken: "Filthy P.") and be on the Net and be *listening to what we say about you* and even responding to what we say" thing:

You take a big deep breath. And then you utter (not where anyone else can hear, of course) (except maybe Harlan) the mantra:

"Those who mind don't matter. Those who matter don't mind."

Repeat as necessary.

Besides, all this should slip off you like water off the duck's back...because you're still a fan at heart. And so am I. We just happen to have pursued our fandom fiercely enough that the Powers that Be(TM) started paying us for the results.

If the fandom-that-is doesn't like it...TOUGH. Where were *they* when Page One was blank?

(Ooo, did that sound cranky? Maybe it's my blood sugar.)

You just get on with your work and dip into the Net and speak to the readers when you like. They're lucky to have you. They're lucky to have as much of your time as they vouchsafe them. If you *weren't* out and about the Net, there'd be people as snarky about it. ("Stuck up...couldn't be bothered with his fans...you'd think he couldn't afford a news aggregator..." )

;)

Regards --

D.